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Author Topic: Should I be Orthodox or Lutheran?  (Read 3626 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2013, 05:52:39 AM »

Why not give the priest of the nearest parish a call?

I've done that before.  

What did he say?

It was just an exchange of formality over the phone. "How are you" "Glad you called" etc etc.

Did you explain your situation?

Yes, the situation is I need a car to drive to Ft. Worth to attend Orthodox services.
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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2013, 05:59:07 AM »

At the risk of appearing lukewarm, I would advocate remaining Orthodox but attending church less frequently, until your circumstances change. There are many communities over here that get DL only once a month (and that usually on a Saturday), when the priest from another parish can get there. You can keep up your prayers, do reader services for what you miss, and bide your time. This could very well be another trial that God sends you. Why fall off the wagon after so many years?
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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2013, 06:55:46 AM »

Why not give the priest of the nearest parish a call?

I've done that before.  

What did he say?

It was just an exchange of formality over the phone. "How are you" "Glad you called" etc etc.

Did you explain your situation?

Yes, the situation is I need a car to drive to Ft. Worth to attend Orthodox services.

Did you explain this situation to the priest on the phone?
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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2013, 10:55:36 AM »

Have you asked the priest if there is someone who lives near you who can give you a ride to church? We've been taking a college student to church every Sunday (and other days, like during Holy Week) with us for several years now.
Has he considered getting a job?

Well, she's pre-med so her academic workload is pretty heavy, and she's also on scholarship - one of which requires her to work as a teacher with Head Start students in an underprivileged area. She also volunteers as a paramedic for the college EMS service.
Perhaps those two could count as a job? She gets a stipend (miniscule) for the Head Start work, and her mother has two other children and works for a hospital food service. They live in public housing. No extra money for a car.
Not sure how she could fit much else into her schedule.
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« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2013, 01:46:26 PM »

I'd rather not go to church than be a Lutheran. But there are certainly worse forms of Christianity.
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2013, 11:46:30 AM »

I'd rather not go to church than be a Lutheran.

Why?
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2013, 12:24:48 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that the ELCA is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that the ELCA is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

ELCA=Methodist
LCMS=Baptist
WELS=The Sedevacantists of the (American) Lutheran world
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2013, 03:06:24 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2013, 03:12:16 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that the ELCA is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

ELCA=Methodist
LCMS=Baptist
WELS=The Sedevacantists of the (American) Lutheran world
Hmmm, I would probably throw ELCA closer to Episcopalian
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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2013, 03:40:03 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

Sexual sins are the only sins. Says somebody.  Tongue
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2013, 03:46:55 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical. To illustrate, I did not say that ordaining women to the ministry, as the ELCA does, is heretical. I know that we would not ordain women to the priesthood, but the issue is not settled, at least according to some respected Orthodox theologians. As I understand it, it is possible for an ecumenical council to propose that change and, if the laos agrees, women could be ordained priests. So, the ELCA's decision to ordain women is not as a clear cut issue as allowing same-sex married folks to be ordained; the issue here is that the ELCA took an action that is not ecumenically decided, that is, the ELCA acted unilaterally.

In the matter of actively-homosexual ministers, here is the 2009 decision: "By a vote of 559 to 451, delegates to the denomination’s national assembly in Minneapolis approved a resolution declaring that the church would find a way for people in “publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous same-gender relationships” to serve as official ministers. (The church already allows celibate gay men and lesbians to become members of the clergy.)" http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/us/22lutherans.html?hpw&_r=0

To me the issue is as clear cut as this statement by a Lutheran woman minister: "“I think we have stepped beyond what the word of God allows,” said the Rev. Rebecca M. M. Heber of Heathrow, Fla., who said she was going to reconsider her membership." (Same source as above)
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2013, 03:57:21 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2013, 04:53:37 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?

Again, it is not a matter of sexual ethics; it is a teaching that is clearly contrary to Scripture, a rejection of clearly stated words of God. The other problematic issues are a different matter.   
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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2013, 04:56:55 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?

Again, it is not a matter of sexual ethics; it is a teaching that is clearly contrary to Scripture, a rejection of clearly stated words of God. The other problematic issues are a different matter.   

Sola Scriptura is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran ecclesiology is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran soteriology is clearly contrary to Scripture etc. How those are different issues?
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« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2013, 03:19:39 AM »

hello,

I have been on the path and journey to Orthodoxy for about 8 years but unable to get to Orthodox services What should I do? I can attend a Lutheran church around the corner from where I live. Should I be Orthodox or Lutheran? please give your input. Thanks
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« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2013, 09:41:24 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?

Again, it is not a matter of sexual ethics; it is a teaching that is clearly contrary to Scripture, a rejection of clearly stated words of God. The other problematic issues are a different matter.   

Sola Scriptura is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran ecclesiology is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran soteriology is clearly contrary to Scripture etc. How those are different issues?

To recap, Carl thinks ELCA is not a serious Christian church, as opposed to the other two major American lutheran denominations. He later clarifies that this is because ELCA are heretical. It would appear then that the Wisconsin and Missouri synods are not heretical in his view.
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« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2013, 10:03:29 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that the ELCA is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

ELCA=Methodist
LCMS=Baptist
WELS=The Sedevacantists of the (American) Lutheran world
Hmmm, I would probably throw ELCA closer to Episcopalian

That's true, but a great many Lutherans are still unhappy with the move to ordain openly homosexual men and women and may still leave the ELCA or force some change.  The Methodists, I realize, have not made any changes to their Book of Discipline with regard to sexual ethics for clergy and laity. But, the Lutherans of the ELCA on the whole, are more low church than high church which puts the more in the Methodist camp than the Episcopal camp.

full disclosure: I can't take full credit for the quip.  The late Jaroslav Pelikan made that particular comparison about the ELCA and Methodists and LCMS and Baptists after his reception into the Orthodox Church.  At that time, neither the ELCA nor the Episcopalians had made any changes to their doctrines on sexual ethics.
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« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2013, 06:08:25 AM »

While perhaps I would be speaking out of line, and I am by no means a very experienced christian - being that the only thread I have made is also in the 'convert issues' forum - it may not be too dishonest to accept and be open about the fact that you are Orthodox, while attending a different church. The nearest Orthodox space to me is some four hour drive, to a Russian Orthodox parish that congregates occasionally in the underground lockers of a catholic church. I attend a catholic church - though, not the mass, by heavenly mercy - to pray and make devotions to the icons, and the like. And there is much to be admired in those churches - the Stations of the Cross and St. Ignatius, and so on. And it is a personal journey for me, also - I am a 'catholic' in this country - that means, I identify as Irish, and not British - and 'Catholics' in this country are persecuted. And my town is 95% 'Protestant' (which means to identify as British, and support the Imperial occupation). There is only one catholic church in this town and it is regularly attacked and having its windows broken and its altars desecrated, and blasphemes written, and more than once bombed and lit aflame. And it is dangerous for me to enter this church, lest I be seen by the wrong people.

So for me it is a holy journey to cross that threshold! Though it is not my Church, merely attending is an act of tremendous devotion to God and to God's Ireland, and against the forces of Imperial evil which wish to distinguish that faith, whether I have that faith or not. And perhaps that is some holy journey (a song we have here goes 'Some say the devil is dead, and buried in Kilarny - I say he rose again, and joined the British Army' haw haw haw).

While it may not be such a crucial thing for you, all I am saying is that I absolutely understand the desire to be in a holy place. And so you should go to that holy place, and pray there, and prostrate before the altars, and if you want get to know the congregation. And there is a tradition in Lutheranism to be proud of - that legend Kierkegaard is an eternal inspiration to me, and the reluctant anti-semite Luther is a hilarious, though completely deplorable, character. So on... It is something that has existed here in our old tangling tradition and it is something to behold. So you may go there and feel holy. But avoid the sermons, or whatever, if they do not please you (they would not please me), and call that priest you are in correspondence with as you like, and enjoy meals of wine and bread, and whenever the opportunity opens to you, make the pilgrimage to the altars of the Orthodox Church, and that would be a tremendous expression of your Will, and the Will of God, surely!

Good luck, etc. and thanks for letting me babble for so long about things I know little about, ahahaha
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« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2013, 07:18:25 PM »

Well I think all the orthodox are gonna say orthodox, all the lutherans are gonna say lutheran and on an orthodox forum there will be many more. Do more study, read more fathers, read luther and then read orthodox materials. Maybe of particular importance might be the dialogue between the Lutherans and Patriarch Jeremiah second of Constantinople.
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« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2013, 02:51:51 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?

Again, it is not a matter of sexual ethics; it is a teaching that is clearly contrary to Scripture, a rejection of clearly stated words of God. The other problematic issues are a different matter.  

Sola Scriptura is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran ecclesiology is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran soteriology is clearly contrary to Scripture etc. How those are different issues?

To recap, Carl thinks ELCA is not a serious Christian church, as opposed to the other two major American lutheran denominations. He later clarifies that this is because ELCA are heretical. It would appear then that the Wisconsin and Missouri synods are not heretical in his view.

There is only one True Church--the Eastern Orthodox one of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. There are others who have separated themselves from the True Church over the centuries; however, not all heterodox churches are the same when it comes to degree of differences from the Orthodox church. I firmly believe that the OO and the RC are the closest to the EO. I also believe that those churches that take the Bible seriously, even if they differ from the EO, are serious churches. I think most folks are familiar with Blessed Theophan the Recluse's position that was reiterated by St Philaret of New York (see http://blessedphilaret.blogspot.com/2008/09/will-heterodox-be-saved.html. I personally believe that there is more hope for the serious heterodox than the lukewarm ones who have taken positions against the Word of God. It is not a simple matter of heresy, but a matter of considering heresies in context and their consequences. I submit to you that those who try to heed God's Word are less heretical than those who consciously depart from it, break it for a humanist ideal.
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« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2013, 03:03:16 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?

Again, it is not a matter of sexual ethics; it is a teaching that is clearly contrary to Scripture, a rejection of clearly stated words of God. The other problematic issues are a different matter.  

Sola Scriptura is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran ecclesiology is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran soteriology is clearly contrary to Scripture etc. How those are different issues?

To recap, Carl thinks ELCA is not a serious Christian church, as opposed to the other two major American lutheran denominations. He later clarifies that this is because ELCA are heretical. It would appear then that the Wisconsin and Missouri synods are not heretical in his view.

There is only one True Church--the Eastern Orthodox one of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. There are others who have separated themselves from the True Church over the centuries; however, not all heterodox churches are the same when it comes to degree of differences from the Orthodox church. I firmly believe that the OO and the RC are the closest to the EO. I also believe that those churches that take the Bible seriously, even if they differ from the EO, are serious churches. I think most folks are familiar with Blessed Theophan the Recluse's position that was reiterated by St Philaret of New York (see http://blessedphilaret.blogspot.com/2008/09/will-heterodox-be-saved.html. I personally believe that there is more hope for the serious heterodox than the lukewarm ones who have taken positions against the Word of God. It is not a simple matter of heresy, but a matter of considering heresies in context and their consequences. I submit to you that those who try to heed God's Word are less heretical than those who consciously depart from it, break it for a humanist ideal.
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« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2013, 03:31:15 PM »

There are three Lutheran denominations that I know of: ELCA, Wisconsin Synod and Lutheran Synod. Of the three, I do not think that  is a serious Christian church as it has started to ordain openly homosexual persons.

What's with the homophobia? Why is misguided sexual ethics worse than, say, misguided ecclesiology or Sola Scriptura?

It is not a matter of homophobia; it is action that is contrary to Scripture and Tradition, thus heretical.

So is much of what Lutheranism is. Why to highlight sexual ethics while there are numerous even more problematic issues with Lutheranism?

Again, it is not a matter of sexual ethics; it is a teaching that is clearly contrary to Scripture, a rejection of clearly stated words of God. The other problematic issues are a different matter.  

Sola Scriptura is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran ecclesiology is clearly contrary to Scripture, Lutheran soteriology is clearly contrary to Scripture etc. How those are different issues?

To recap, Carl thinks ELCA is not a serious Christian church, as opposed to the other two major American lutheran denominations. He later clarifies that this is because ELCA are heretical. It would appear then that the Wisconsin and Missouri synods are not heretical in his view.

There is only one True Church--the Eastern Orthodox one of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. There are others who have separated themselves from the True Church over the centuries; however, not all heterodox churches are the same when it comes to degree of differences from the Orthodox church. I firmly believe that the OO and the RC are the closest to the EO. I also believe that those churches that take the Bible seriously, even if they differ from the EO, are serious churches. I think most folks are familiar with Blessed Theophan the Recluse's position that was reiterated by St Philaret of New York (see http://blessedphilaret.blogspot.com/2008/09/will-heterodox-be-saved.html. I personally believe that there is more hope for the serious heterodox than the lukewarm ones who have taken positions against the Word of God. It is not a simple matter of heresy, but a matter of considering heresies in context and their consequences. I submit to you that those who try to heed God's Word are less heretical than those who consciously depart from it, break it for a humanist ideal.

I agree but you haven't explained why misguided sexual ethics is worse than misguided ecclesiology etc.
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« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2013, 04:08:02 PM »

Aww, I want to answer that, but I'm leaving for the day.  Sad
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« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2013, 06:57:24 PM »

...that was reiterated by St Philaret of New York...

Was he ever canonised by any of the "official" EO Churches?   
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« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2013, 07:08:33 PM »

Quote
I agree but you haven't explained why misguided sexual ethics is worse than misguided ecclesiology etc.
I see a difference between the two in that if it is misguided eccelsiology, it is a failure to understand the apostolic and patristic teachings.  To a certain extent, we can cut them slack, because they don't know any better.  Most people stay in the church they are born into and never investigate and search out other faiths.  Most modern Christians, don't understand the importance of the history of the Church and the ramifications thereof.  Traditional Christianity, on the other hand, has always taken a consistent position on sexuality.  To turn away from it because it makes one uncomfortable, is an active change that is made.  Perhaps in 100 years when misguided sexual ethics have become normalized in other Christian circles, we will be forced to cut them some slack with the recognition that they just don't know any better, but until then, their active revolution into acceptance of such sinful lifestyles is a conscious decision that is made to forsake what Scripture and Christianity has always taught.

Note, when I say cut them slack, I'm not saying accept what they are teaching, I'm saying if they don't know any better, they need instruction.  For someone who does know better, but actively rejects the truth, reproof is needed before instruction. When heretical Christian groups were just beginning, reproof was needed because they were actively rejecting the Church in favor of their own path. As time passes and those groups have their progeny in those groups and the progeny doesn't know any different, reproof isn't needed as much as instruction.

Hope that makes sense.  That is why I see that two different approaches are needed for sexual ethics vs doctrinal ethics.
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« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2013, 07:13:23 AM »

...that was reiterated by St Philaret of New York...

Was he ever canonised by any of the "official" EO Churches?   

No.  ROCOR was looking into it, but I don't think that came to anything.
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« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2013, 07:45:18 AM »

I know a number of folks who belong to 'liberal' denominations, including ELCA, who are as serious about the Bible as anyone. One of the most compassionate, moral, and committed Christians I've ever known is a member of the ELCA- a meek, kind, and noble soul both in personal settings and in her tireless work in helping others- and no, she is not a conservative holdout. These folks are serious about the Bible, they just interpret parts of it differently. And yes, they interpret wrongly, but to suggest that they are somehow less "serious" or principled is arrogant and ignorant. The double standard here of ecclesiology versus sexual ethics suggests a severe intrusion of political ideology and secular social mores into the Gospel. Well, what else is new.
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« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2013, 03:43:46 PM »

I know a number of folks who belong to 'liberal' denominations, including ELCA, who are as serious about the Bible as anyone. One of the most compassionate, moral, and committed Christians I've ever known is a member of the ELCA- a meek, kind, and noble soul both in personal settings and in her tireless work in helping others- and no, she is not a conservative holdout. These folks are serious about the Bible, they just interpret parts of it differently. And yes, they interpret wrongly, but to suggest that they are somehow less "serious" or principled is arrogant and ignorant. The double standard here of ecclesiology versus sexual ethics suggests a severe intrusion of political ideology and secular social mores into the Gospel. Well, what else is new.

I also know ELCA members who are most serious Christians. I was not talking about individuals but about the denomination itself who took a stand four years ago that makes the denomination a heretical sect. The denomination crossed a very important step when they decided to ignore clear Biblical injunctions. As for your insinuation that my accusation somehow represents a "severe intrusion of political ideology and secular social mores into the Gospel," you have it exactly backwards. The ELCA is guilty of this, not I. I am truly surprised that you do not see this.
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« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2013, 04:29:50 PM »

I. These folks are serious about the Bible, they just interpret parts of it differently. And yes, they interpret wrongly, but to suggest that they are somehow less "serious" or principled is arrogant and ignorant.

Heretics like Arius and Nestorius were pious and serious men.  They're still wrong and rightfully condemned.
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« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2013, 04:52:18 PM »

Hope that makes sense.  That is why I see that two different approaches are needed for sexual ethics vs doctrinal ethics.

I think this is why your idea fails. There is no difference between sexual ethics and doctrinal ethics. A heresy is a sin too.
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« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2013, 04:53:45 PM »

Lutheranism...? Shocked Sounds extremely boring, lackluster, and dull. If you are going down that rabbit hole, why not choose an Episcopal church with a high mass. At least you will have all the bells and whistles of a beautifully celebrated liturgy to keep you mildly entertained until you find a more permanent Orthodox solution.
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« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2013, 05:13:17 PM »

Wonder if there is any public transportation such as buses or trains in the area? Just a thought.

I am sorry the OP isn't able to reach his church at this time. I would suggest maybe looking up the phone number of any Orthodox Church within even a moderate distance, and calling them, and asking them if they have help with transportation. Rather than make a fundamental change in your beliefs, maybe you can get a ride from someone in an Orthodox Church if it's not too far away. In my parish, they have a guy who offers to drive people to Liturgy. (I am sorry I'm not in Texas or I'd direct you to him.) Smiley Often people will try to help if you will ask.

Good luck, I hope it evens out.  Smiley
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« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2013, 06:00:08 PM »

Lutheranism...? Shocked Sounds extremely boring, lackluster, and dull. If you are going down that rabbit hole, why not choose an Episcopal church with a high mass. At least you will have all the bells and whistles of a beautifully celebrated liturgy to keep you mildly entertained until you find a more permanent Orthodox solution.

That was the advice given to the Greeks long ago.  I still know of a few octogenarians who hold membership in an Episcopal parish and simultaneously in the nearest Greek Chirch 100 miles away. 
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« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2013, 08:23:13 PM »

That was before Episcopalians went cuckoo. I doubt the same advice would be given today.
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« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2013, 08:24:28 PM »

Hope that makes sense.  That is why I see that two different approaches are needed for sexual ethics vs doctrinal ethics.

I think this is why your idea fails. There is no difference between sexual ethics and doctrinal ethics. A heresy is a sin too.
I certainly leave open the possibility that I am wrong.  Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2013, 02:02:58 PM »

Many posts on this thread are based on a false premise, namely that there is an organisation on earth which may be called "the only true church". If this were true, then of course the question can have only one answer: one should join that church, even if no other members live nearby. But if true believers, the real 'body of Christ', are scattered through many congregations, then the search must be for fellowship with them, coming as close to 'worshiping in Spirit and in truth' as is feasible in this fallen world.

A facetious answer to the original question might be, "Don't be Orthodox or Lutheran - be a Baptist"; but a serious answer is to search out those who call upon the Lord from a true and pure heart and hold the faith which works by love.
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« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2013, 02:25:38 PM »

Many posts on this thread are based on a false premise, namely that there is an organisation on earth which may be called "the only true church". If this were true, then of course the question can have only one answer: one should join that church, even if no other members live nearby. But if true believers, the real 'body of Christ', are scattered through many congregations, then the search must be for fellowship with them, coming as close to 'worshiping in Spirit and in truth' as is feasible in this fallen world.

A facetious answer to the original question might be, "Don't be Orthodox or Lutheran - be a Baptist"; but a serious answer is to search out those who call upon the Lord from a true and pure heart and hold the faith which works by love.
It is true, wishful thinking notwithstanding.

Christ founded a Church, as in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail over her, and He would remain with her all the days unto the end of the age.  Accept no substitute, as outside her there is no worship "in Spirit and in Truth."
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2013, 02:27:24 PM »

Lutheranism...? Shocked Sounds extremely boring, lackluster, and dull. If you are going down that rabbit hole, why not choose an Episcopal church with a high mass. At least you will have all the bells and whistles of a beautifully celebrated liturgy to keep you mildly entertained until you find a more permanent Orthodox solution.

Lutherans do have better music, when they actually use it.  The German hymnwriters from the 16th-early 19th century are so much better than those wonks in the ANglican/Episcopal tradition.
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« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2013, 02:36:20 PM »

Many posts on this thread are based on a false premise, namely that there is an organisation on earth which may be called "the only true church".
Why is this a false premise?

If this were true, then of course the question can have only one answer: one should join that church, even if no other members live nearby. But if true believers, the real 'body of Christ', are scattered through many congregations, then the search must be for fellowship with them, coming as close to 'worshiping in Spirit and in truth' as is feasible in this fallen world.
On what foundation do you build your argument that the Church is purely invisible, that the "real 'body of Christ'" is scattered through many congregations?

A facetious answer to the original question might be, "Don't be Orthodox or Lutheran - be a Baptist"; but a serious answer is to search out those who call upon the Lord from a true and pure heart and hold the faith which works by love.
So doctrine is unimportant?
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« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2013, 02:43:58 PM »

Lutheranism...? Shocked Sounds extremely boring, lackluster, and dull. If you are going down that rabbit hole, why not choose an Episcopal church with a high mass. At least you will have all the bells and whistles of a beautifully celebrated liturgy to keep you mildly entertained until you find a more permanent Orthodox solution.

Lutherans do have better music, when they actually use it.  The German hymnwriters from the 16th-early 19th century are so much better than those wonks in the ANglican/Episcopal tradition.
that's why they imported Handel.
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« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2013, 09:55:10 PM »

Lutheranism...? Shocked Sounds extremely boring, lackluster, and dull.

JS Bach and Jakob Boehme... definitely not boring.
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« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2013, 10:45:24 PM »

Lutheranism...? Shocked Sounds extremely boring, lackluster, and dull.

JS Bach and Jakob Boehme... definitely not boring.

Schutz, Praetorius, Hassler, Schein, Buxtehude, Telemann, Cruger?  All of them not boring.
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« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2013, 11:56:55 PM »

^^^Right, some beautiful hymns sung in a mildly semi-liturgical setting...pass! I'll take the Book of Common Prayer with a high Anglican mass over that any day. 
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« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2013, 01:37:08 AM »

Jakob Boehme... definitely not boring.

Psychophthoros and boehhhhhrrrring...  Roll Eyes
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