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Author Topic: "Western" Orthodoxy  (Read 718 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andrew Crook
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« on: August 18, 2013, 07:18:20 AM »

Was there ever a time when the West's history and theological development was not united intimately with Rome?   I don't think anyone would have just gone renegade against their one and only Patriarch of the West.  For sure to be a true church, it was always very important that you yourself could claim apostolic succession or you were in communion with one who had maintained it.   Most can accept that Rome was founded by Peter and Paul, similarly to Antioch.  Yet there was no English church, or French church which could claim succession without Rome.   Unless of course you think that apostolic succession has been passed on since Augustine of Canterbury, or Boniface, etc. and the Protestantizing of the Lutherans, Calvinists, and the reforms which went on in the Church of England never invalidated the original lineage.   Some seem to adhere to that idea...
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 03:23:24 PM »

In the pre-schism period, the influence of Rome can in some places and times be described as nominal.
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 03:36:20 PM »

I went to a Lutheran service this morning

If I went to the local catholic church here in town then those people would not know anything about Rome or the Pope

Unless you talked about it
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2013, 03:48:20 PM »

What's the West?  At one time Greece, Serbia, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Constantinople herself were in the Patriarchate of the West.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 03:52:32 PM »

What's the West?  At one time Greece, Serbia, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Constantinople herself were in the Patriarchate of the West.

The United States of America  ...  is what constitutes part of the Western world.
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 03:55:36 PM »

I'm no expert but for centuries Celtic Christianity of the British Isles was not "intimately" linked with Rome. Someone more knowledgable will have to comment and perhaps correct me.
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 04:18:59 PM »

Although not exactly what you're looking for, the history of Gallicanism in France (1682-1790) bears investigation as a slight step in the direction you are talking about.  See here for a very basic overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallican_Church

I know little beyond what is posted here but have heard of the movement.
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 11:51:23 PM »

Another thing that might interested you is at the time intense dialogue between Orthodox and Anglicans...sometimes in the 20th century...
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 01:08:23 AM »

The north African church and the Visigothic church of Spain were western and Latin but operated fairly independently of Rome before they were conquered by the Muslims.
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 08:06:41 AM »

I went to a Lutheran service this morning

So why do you claim you are Orthodox?
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 09:04:26 AM »

What's the West?  At one time Greece, Serbia, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Constantinople herself were in the Patriarchate of the West.

The United States of America  ...  is what constitutes part of the Western world.
And?

Btw, Alaska was in the East.
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 07:01:29 PM »

I went to a Lutheran service this morning

So why do you claim you are Orthodox?

Orthodox aren't allowed to go to other services?  What if they converted to Orthodoxy, and have Protestant or Roman Catholic family members or spouses? Many do.
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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 07:09:21 PM »

Another thing that might interested you is at the time intense dialogue between Orthodox and Anglicans...sometimes in the 20th century...

Sure it's interesting, and I agree that there shouldn't be anything that was too theologically disagreeable with many Roman Catholic or Anglican prayers in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox.   Yet they are still very different, and still not in communion.   Archbishop Rowan Williams always seemed quite too conservative, for many of the more "progressive" Bishops under him.  

Some would call The Episcopal Church here in the U.S. quite horrifying, defying Holy Tradition in support of what's novel and new going on in the political sphere under the guise of basic innate rights.   They are part of the Anglican Communion as a whole.   To be honest, I have the same conflict within myself which is one reason why I'm not sure I could ever be a Roman Catholic.    Orthodoxy is a lot better, as they never felt the need to list a whole bunch of items or dogmas which had to be believed.    The basics are the 7 Councils, and after that it seems to be up to opinions.  

Yet I also know my own innate nature, my own struggles within myself when it comes to a lot of these subjects.    I don't understand how a person can be happy, and deny himself so much and live as a monk.. or be celibate for the rest of his or her life.   Our ancestors basic instinct was to build a family and procreate, yet Christianity asks us to go from living a human or animal life...   to an angelic life.   Easier said than done.   However the whole message is empowering, that God reached out to humanity and offered a way out of what happened to us as illustrated in Genesis and the Fall.  
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 07:13:52 PM by Andrew Crook » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 07:11:23 PM »

I went to a Lutheran service this morning

So why do you claim you are Orthodox?

Orthodox aren't allowed to go to other services?  What if they converted to Orthodoxy, and have Protestant or Roman Catholic family members or spouses? Many do.

They shouldn't. There are times when it may be permissible through oikonomia, but the rule is not to attend the services of other faiths.
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2013, 07:13:20 PM »

What's the West?  At one time Greece, Serbia, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Constantinople herself were in the Patriarchate of the West.

Yet they always respected the authority of their Hierarch didn't they?   They recognized the authority which was granted to him, through the apostolic succession which he carried.    It's not a matter of what's West or East, but a matter of recognizing the spiritual authority of the Bishop as a Father and the Church as a mother.  So in obedience, those churches grew under him...
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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 08:50:24 PM »

Another thing that might interested you is at the time intense dialogue between Orthodox and Anglicans...sometimes in the 20th century...

Sure it's interesting, and I agree that there shouldn't be anything that was too theologically disagreeable with many Roman Catholic or Anglican prayers in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox.   Yet they are still very different, and still not in communion.   Archbishop Rowan Williams always seemed quite too conservative, for many of the more "progressive" Bishops under him.  

Some would call The Episcopal Church here in the U.S. quite horrifying, defying Holy Tradition in support of what's novel and new going on in the political sphere under the guise of basic innate rights.   They are part of the Anglican Communion as a whole.   To be honest, I have the same conflict within myself which is one reason why I'm not sure I could ever be a Roman Catholic.    Orthodoxy is a lot better, as they never felt the need to list a whole bunch of items or dogmas which had to be believed.    The basics are the 7 Councils, and after that it seems to be up to opinions.  

Yet I also know my own innate nature, my own struggles within myself when it comes to a lot of these subjects.    I don't understand how a person can be happy, and deny himself so much and live as a monk.. or be celibate for the rest of his or her life.   Our ancestors basic instinct was to build a family and procreate, yet Christianity asks us to go from living a human or animal life...   to an angelic life.   Easier said than done.   However the whole message is empowering, that God reached out to humanity and offered a way out of what happened to us as illustrated in Genesis and the Fall.  
There are plenty of married Orthodox-the Church celebrates it as one of the Holy Mysteries (to which level the profession of monastic vows does not rise).
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 11:35:02 AM »

I don't understand how a person can be happy, and deny himself so much and live as a monk.. or be celibate for the rest of his or her life.  

Yet oddly enough the monastics that I have met are the most joyous and peaceful people I've ever known. Maybe they know something we don't?
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 02:07:53 PM »

I went to a Lutheran service this morning

So why do you claim you are Orthodox?

Orthodox aren't allowed to go to other services?  What if they converted to Orthodoxy, and have Protestant or Roman Catholic family members or spouses? Many do.
I find it best that when I go to church with my wife is at her Methodist church, it is best to stand out front with a placard that says: "Woe to you schismatics and heretics, flee this place of iniquity!"  I've been rather suprised at the number of disapproving looks I get. You would think they would appreciate some helpful advice.
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2013, 02:38:46 PM »

I went to a Lutheran service this morning

So why do you claim you are Orthodox?

Orthodox aren't allowed to go to other services?  What if they converted to Orthodoxy, and have Protestant or Roman Catholic family members or spouses? Many do.
I find it best that when I go to church with my wife is at her Methodist church, it is best to stand out front with a placard that says: "Woe to you schismatics and heretics, flee this place of iniquity!"  I've been rather suprised at the number of disapproving looks I get. You would think they would appreciate some helpful advice.

Could you send me your picture? I'd like to paint write an icon of you.
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 03:08:10 PM »

This is photo of me protesting happiness.  Note my 6 month beard.  It doesn't grow very fast.

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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 03:49:30 PM »

 laugh laugh Cheesy  Thanks for the laugh!
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