Author Topic: I must be pretty naive...  (Read 850 times)

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Offline Shiny

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I must be pretty naive...
« on: August 17, 2013, 05:13:01 PM »
Walking down Carson St the other day I took this picture:


Didn't know Byz Caths used the tri-bar crosses...
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Offline Alpo

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 05:14:37 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Offline mike

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 05:18:36 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

Reminds me of a story of some cardinal visiting Kiev (or Chełm, Lvov, doesn't matter) in XVIth century when he entered an Orthodox church by mistake. He didn't see anything wrong about crosses.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 05:45:02 PM »
Sure. :)  Onion domes on that church not oniony enough though!
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 06:28:36 PM »
I love the tri-bar cross.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 06:43:49 PM »
I love the tri-bar cross.
As do I. Hope you are well Apotheoun.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2013, 09:08:19 PM »
I find that most Orthodox probably have interacted with more Martians than with Ukrainian or Ruthenian/Rusyn Greek Catholics. They don't have horns, breath fire or belch green projectile vomit.

In fact, for the most part, a non Orthodox Christian (and many Orthodox for matter) would make the same mistake today that the Cardinal that Michal referred to made centuries ago. For example in my city, our Orthodox Church, like many old time OCA, ACROD and UOC buildings, was constructed in the early 20th century and decorated in the iconographic style then popular in Russia and Eastern Europe - westernized. Down the street is the Ruthenian  Greek Catholic Church built in the 1950s and renovated in the 1990s. It is full of three bar crosses, gold domes and  magnificent iconography in a style found in northern Greece through Serbia. No Immaculate Conception, no photos of the Pope.

But looks are deceiving. It remains a Catholic Church in union with the Pope.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 10:17:00 PM »


Didn't know Byz Caths used the tri-bar crosses...

The 'U' word folks have had a long history of identity confusion.  Just one of the Pope's trojan horses.
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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 02:25:56 AM »


Didn't know Byz Caths used the tri-bar crosses...

The 'U' word folks have had a long history of identity confusion.  Just one of the Pope's trojan horses.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 02:29:20 AM »
I caused an auto accident on E. Carson street about 11 years ago. I haven't drove a car to that part of town since. There were no Catholics to help me that day.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 05:21:29 AM »
I caused an auto accident on E. Carson street about 11 years ago. I haven't drove a car to that part of town since. There were no Catholics to help me that day.
They were all in a trojan horse that day.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 02:36:33 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

I thought it's a Russian tradition. Just wondering why non-Russians would adopt Russian traditions.

Offline mike

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 02:38:11 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

I thought it's a Russian tradition. Just wondering why non-Russians would adopt Russian traditions.

Only Russian? You sure?

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 02:50:05 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

I thought it's a Russian tradition. Just wondering why non-Russians would adopt Russian traditions.

This cross is also part of Ukrainian and other Eastern European Orthodox traditions.  When some of them went over to Greek Catholicism, they took the cross with them.  Not surprising.  The interior of a Greek Catholic Church is usually indistinguishable from an Orthodox Church unless there are Latinizations.   

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 06:49:07 PM »
I find that most Orthodox probably have interacted with more Martians than with Ukrainian or Ruthenian/Rusyn Greek Catholics. They don't have horns, breath fire or belch green projectile vomit.

In fact, for the most part, a non Orthodox Christian (and many Orthodox for matter) would make the same mistake today that the Cardinal that Michal referred to made centuries ago. For example in my city, our Orthodox Church, like many old time OCA, ACROD and UOC buildings, was constructed in the early 20th century and decorated in the iconographic style then popular in Russia and Eastern Europe - westernized. Down the street is the Ruthenian  Greek Catholic Church built in the 1950s and renovated in the 1990s. It is full of three bar crosses, gold domes and  magnificent iconography in a style found in northern Greece through Serbia. No Immaculate Conception, no photos of the Pope.

But looks are deceiving. It remains a Catholic Church in union with the Pope.

In the case of the BCC church I mentioned, it actually is the three bar crosses that would tip one off to the fact the Church was not Greek, Romanian or Serbian!

Offline Agabus

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 09:30:39 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

I thought it's a Russian tradition. Just wondering why non-Russians would adopt Russian traditions.
The Antiochians in the U.S. — at least the ones I know — do Russian stuff all the time. I'm not just talking about the white people, either.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2013, 10:12:25 PM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Because the three-bar cross isn't Russian, all the East Slavs use it.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2013, 12:12:35 AM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

I thought it's a Russian tradition. Just wondering why non-Russians would adopt Russian traditions.

Only Russian? You sure?

I do not recall from where I read what I am about to write and I'm interested in feedback, but I thought the 3 bared cross was the traditional Eastern Orthodox Christian cross.  I read that after the Greek revolution of 1833, the principals of the protectorate powers (the United Kingdom, France, and Russia) were dominated by Protestants and to a lesser extent, Roman Catholics, and they encouraged the use of the cross style used by the Western Churches, which carried over to Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria.  Even today, manufacturers in Greece frequently use the 3 bared cross on ecclesiastical supplies used in church sanctuaries, i.e. such as the censer, the paten and chalice, candelabra, etc. (Those powers with Protestant influence also pushed the Church of Greece to declare "autocephaly," likewise, and they encouraged the Western influence in Greek iconography of that era.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 12:26:22 AM by Basil 320 »
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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 12:36:36 AM »
The Antiochians in the U.S. — at least the ones I know — do Russian stuff all the time. I'm not just talking about the white people, either.

:)
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Offline LBK

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Re: I must be pretty naive...
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 01:04:38 AM »
Why would any non-Russian Greek Catholic use tri-bar cross?

Why wouldn't?

I thought it's a Russian tradition. Just wondering why non-Russians would adopt Russian traditions.

Only Russian? You sure?

I do not recall from where I read what I am about to write and I'm interested in feedback, but I thought the 3 bared cross was the traditional Eastern Orthodox Christian cross.  I read that after the Greek revolution of 1833, the principals of the protectorate powers (the United Kingdom, France, and Russia) were dominated by Protestants and to a lesser extent, Roman Catholics, and they encouraged the use of the cross style used by the Western Churches, which carried over to Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria.  Even today, manufacturers in Greece frequently use the 3 bared cross on ecclesiastical supplies used in church sanctuaries, i.e. such as the censer, the paten and chalice, candelabra, etc. (Those powers with Protestant influence also pushed the Church of Greece to declare "autocephaly," likewise, and they encouraged the Western influence in Greek iconography of that era.)

1. The Greek Revolution dates from 1821, not 1833.   :police:

2. The cross known as the Greek cross looks like a plus sign, with all arms of equal length. It also features on the old post-independence Greek flag (a square flag of a white cross on a blue field), and on the present-day national flag which bears the stripes as well as the cross in the upper left corner. The Roman cross, of shorter horizontal arms on a longer vertical, greatly predates the emergence of protestantism, and, IIRC, was in use in the earliest post-toleration period.

3. Greek manufacturers of church paraphernalia cater for non-Greek customers outside of Greece, including Slavic parishes and monasteries in the diaspora. The three-bar cross is also seen often enough in the northern Greek provinces, where Slavic influences have colored many cultural practices, including spoken dialects, baptismal names, and church praxis.

Even where I live, there is a Greek church whose interior was fully painted with icons about 25 years ago. The iconographers were three brothers from Thessaloniki. In the mural icon of the Resurrection, an angel is seen flying above Christ, holding a cross. A three-bar Slavic cross.
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