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Author Topic: Will Islam take over the world?  (Read 3926 times) Average Rating: 0
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andrewlya
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« on: August 17, 2013, 12:59:01 PM »

Hi dear Brothers and Sisters,

I've come across this question and wanted to see what your thoughts are since Islam is rapidly spreading with Mosques being built in many places of the world, especially in England so it seems to me! Do you think Islam will be a dominant religion before the Second Coming of Christ at which point Christ will change the people's religion into one?



This is the statement of someone about the spread of Islam:

"I've heard that the Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 wars, leading up to Gog/Magog, would end the Muslims attempt to take over the world. I've thought for many years the Muslims have a plan, and I believe they truly do... In doing some research over the past week, I've come to the conclusion these wars will definitely not stop the Muslims. Just some thoughts/facts below;

If you look at the Muslim by Country chart, you will see they are in every country on the face of the earth, and growing exponentially. Islam by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Even after these 3 wars above, there will be more Muslims on earth than Christians. I've been doing the math... Remember, just because a nation isn't Muslim, does NOT mean they are Christian.

As of 2002, a full 80% of the Muslims in the world do NOT live in Arab countries. Scary thought. Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion – Silencing the Critics. If you read the Islamic websites, they feel they have been commanded by Allah to infiltrate the rest of the world and breed everyone else out.

While some Christian websites state Christianity is growing faster, that simply isn't supported by the facts. First off, a WATERED DOWN version of the bible is growing, NOT true Christianity. There is a HUGE difference. Islam does not have itching ears as Americans do. The number of Mosques in the USA alone has increased by 74% since 2000. Islamic places of worship in U.S. up 74% since 2000 By most accounts, it is now the 2nd largest "faith" in the USA and growing faster than any religion. In New York and California (same article) and even Texas, Mosques are being built as rapidly as possible so they can integrate Muslims into American politics as quickly as possible. Minnesota should be a case study....

A recent Bagby survey shows there are over 7 million Islamists in the USA alone. The media has quietly estimated the number to be around 3 million. Don't believe the media.

In Spain alone, the foreign born population rose to 13.4% (in 2007, higher now) of all births. As in the UK, the top baby name is Mohamed, followed by Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza. Islamization of Europe: The Numbers Don’t Lie | FrontPage Magazine

85% of the total population growth in Europe was due to immigration over the last decade. The Muslim population is increasing TEN TIMES the rate of the regular population. Islam in Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The point is the Muslims are not going to be wiped out if the nations mentioned above go to war. Far from it. Islam is moving across the globe. I do believe a great number of Muslims will perish in these battles, but the number dying pales in comparison to the number now spread out all over the world.

After reading/researching what I have, my conclusion is now the same as it was before.... I believe the final world religion isn't going to be a watered down version of anything. I believe it will be Islam. I can't think of any other way to make the beheadings of those not willing to take the mark, fit. Islam still beheads people. They don't need to have the greatest population to do this. They only need to do what they are doing now.... Keep breeding and taking over political seats, city by city, as they have been doing. "

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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 01:15:53 PM »

The gates of Hades will not overcome the Church.  That's a promise from Christ Himself.  So whether Muslims keep having more children and taking over political seats of power, the Church will still be the Body and Bride of Christ.
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 01:35:40 PM »

right op, i see it. i belive everyone does. but we have this NEW WORLD religion that has swept the world (withought being noticed) and its not islam its......."Political Correctness". God forbid that someone should say that the muslims are not as nice as we want to belive or that they are the religion of WAR and Death. due to political correctness we have all become sheep following the rears of the one in front without original thought. gota go
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 03:57:13 PM »

Hi dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am officially asking yout to provide sourcelink of this text. You have 24 hours to comply. TIA.
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 04:28:06 PM »

Hi dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am officially asking yout to provide sourcelink of this text. You have 24 hours to comply. TIA.

http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/prophecy-end-times-chat/75601-will-there-muslim-takeover.html

I am not sure, it may be a Catholic's forum, just came across. I wanted to know the opinions of the Orthodox
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 04:31:16 PM »

It might, but if so it'll be our fault. The Muslims did not force us to stop going to church, stop teaching our children about the faith, nor to stop having them in the first place. We are responsible both for creating the spiritual vacuum they are now set to fill and for the decline in our population.
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2013, 05:03:53 PM »

It might, but if so it'll be our fault. The Muslims did not force us to stop going to church, stop teaching our children about the faith, nor to stop having them in the first place. We are responsible both for creating the spiritual vacuum they are now set to fill and for the decline in our population.

It makes sense...Islam seems to be very strict, hence it is coming on so strongly?
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 05:11:05 PM »

Every time this thread pops up I read "Will Italy take over the world?"
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2013, 05:13:29 PM »

It might, but if so it'll be our fault. The Muslims did not force us to stop going to church, stop teaching our children about the faith, nor to stop having them in the first place. We are responsible both for creating the spiritual vacuum they are now set to fill and for the decline in our population.

We're also not threatening to disown or murder our children if they apostatize. Orthodoxy values human freedom; hence Christ not forcing anything on anyone. But Islam is really not afraid to use force or violence to prevent apostasy.

Anyhow, back on topic,

I SERIOUSLY doubt it; what most people forget is that Islam is NOT growing as "rapidly" as media makes it. The only reason it is "growing" is because of the high Muslim birth rate in third world Middle Eastern dumps. However, what these sources leave out is the fact that those countries also have a higher infant mortality rate, and the parents are going to die eventually. All in all, I'd say the size of Islam is relatively staying the same.


Even if Islam does reach that size, I doubt that Holy Russia and Protestant USA will just stand by. Western Europe may allow themselves to get invaded; but we'd never.

You guys are worrying about a false bogeyman when you should be focusing on ecumenism and "tolerance."
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2013, 05:25:23 PM »

We are tolerant that's the thing,that is why things are the way they are.

Islam is taking over in England so it seems,in my city Islam has definitely grown in the last 10 years even in the areas where there was not many Muslims, no there a lot more,they are building a big Mosque there now. There are seem to be a lot more women in niqabs or black burqas (why always black??) than ever before, in groups,feels like being in Saudi sometimes as if they are trying to make a point or something.

Im not anti Islamic or anything (ive Muslim friends,close ones too) but Im just concerned that while Christianity has declined in the UK,Islam has grown and it is not just statistics, it is also very visible,indeed..Im just concerned that slowly but surely England will be a new Caliphate State,seriously. Im sorry, I should not be feeling like this.

God bless us all!


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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2013, 05:27:43 PM »

The only reason it is "growing" is because of the high Muslim birth rate in third world Middle Eastern dumps.

Can you just limit yourself to taking self-portraits with your phone like a good little teenager instead of posting ignorant BS? 
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2013, 05:36:25 PM »

No. "Islam" can't even take over Iran, Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Morsi was deposed for enforcing Islam. Saudis are completely hated by the general populace for their enforcement of Islam. Same in Iran. Even in Hamas controlled Gaza, "Waziristan", Afghanistan, Mali and Somalia.

Will "Islam" as a religion become a significant world force in the future? Of course. But Islam as a political force, as an empire, as a civilization hasn't grown fruit in the recent era and Muslims have tried to enforce it and it goes sour every time.

However, the West's support of the pro-Islam forces isn't helpful. I love how Obama and Kerry lambaste the Muslims for killing each other, when it was them who stoked the flames.

Islam is even crazier than Young Earth Creationist pre-Trib Evangelicalism.

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Im not anti Islamic or anything (ive Muslim friends,close ones too) but Im just concerned that while Christianity has declined in the UK,Islam has grown and it is not just statistics, it is also very visible,indeed..Im just concerned that slowly but surely England will be a new Caliphate State,seriously. Im sorry, I should not be feeling like this.

God bless us all!

Well, Orthodox would say England declined to be Christian in 1054. The Anselmian Christianity they had was flawed, and it is what has led to the increased Atheism and Islam in the West.

I have Muslim friends too, and I am very critical of Islam. But I think we have to be realistic. It's more likely the UK will revert back to the Dark Ages than Islam will rule England. Muslims may become a significant minority, but it won't go anywhere beyond that.
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2013, 05:37:03 PM »

Hi dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am officially asking yout to provide sourcelink of this text. You have 24 hours to comply. TIA.

http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/prophecy-end-times-chat/75601-will-there-muslim-takeover.html

I am not sure, it may be a Catholic's forum, just came across. I wanted to know the opinions of the Orthodox

Thank you. Remember if you post something taken from the net, you need to share credits. Unless you want to get warned of course.
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2013, 05:51:01 PM »

If it is true that Jews rule in England, then it won't happen. But then again, if the Jews rule it,then why this is such a big wave if Islamisation of England, why are they letting it happen?The UK is rapidly loosing its culture and they dont seem to be bothered as if the politicians have no touch with reality, with what is going on in towns..




I have Muslim friends too, and I am very critical of Islam. But I think we have to be realistic. It's more likely the UK will revert back to the Dark Ages than Islam will rule England. Muslims may become a significant minority, but it won't go anywhere beyond that.
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 05:55:04 PM »

In what way did they stoke the flames?




However, the West's support of the pro-Islam forces isn't helpful. I love how Obama and Kerry lambaste the Muslims for killing each other, when it was them who stoked the flames.

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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2013, 05:59:54 PM »

In what way did they stoke the flames?




However, the West's support of the pro-Islam forces isn't helpful. I love how Obama and Kerry lambaste the Muslims for killing each other, when it was them who stoked the flames.


Arms dealing, incitement, puppet governments, coups. All of this is a result of the Western world meddling in the Middle East. In a region they don't even understand. They just want to get their hands on the economic benefits.
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2013, 06:41:49 PM »

It might, but if so it'll be our fault. The Muslims did not force us to stop going to church, stop teaching our children about the faith, nor to stop having them in the first place. We are responsible both for creating the spiritual vacuum they are now set to fill and for the decline in our population.

We're also not threatening to disown or murder our children if they apostatize. Orthodoxy values human freedom; hence Christ not forcing anything on anyone. But Islam is really not afraid to use force or violence to prevent apostasy.

Anyhow, back on topic,

I SERIOUSLY doubt it; what most people forget is that Islam is NOT growing as "rapidly" as media makes it. The only reason it is "growing" is because of the high Muslim birth rate in third world Middle Eastern dumps. However, what these sources leave out is the fact that those countries also have a higher infant mortality rate, and the parents are going to die eventually. All in all, I'd say the size of Islam is relatively staying the same.


Even if Islam does reach that size, I doubt that Holy Russia and Protestant USA will just stand by. Western Europe may allow themselves to get invaded; but we'd never.

You guys are worrying about a false bogeyman when you should be focusing on ecumenism and "tolerance."

JamesR, it is called gradualism. If, IF it ever does happen, expect that by the time the majority wakes up and notices for things to be too far down the Islamic rabbit hole to escape.

I don't see it happening though. Maybe certain cities will get to that point like Dearborn, MI is now but not on a national level.

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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2013, 07:09:00 PM »

Every time this thread pops up I read "Will Italy take over the world?"
I do love Italian food.
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2013, 11:37:53 PM »

Every time this thread pops up I read "Will Italy take over the world?"

I certainly hope not. The Pope lives in Italy, and as any casual observer of this forum can tell you, the Pope publicly breastfeeds Harry Potter. It's sickening.
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2013, 11:40:38 PM »

Every time this thread pops up I read "Will Italy take over the world?"

I certainly hope not. The Pope lives in Italy, and as any casual observer of this forum can tell you, the Pope publicly breastfeeds Harry Potter. It's sickening.

Why is it sickening?  He has that nifty shoulder-cape attached to his cassock to cover up the papal bosoms.  What more do you want?
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2013, 12:58:11 AM »

It might, but if so it'll be our fault. The Muslims did not force us to stop going to church, stop teaching our children about the faith, nor to stop having them in the first place. We are responsible both for creating the spiritual vacuum they are now set to fill and for the decline in our population.
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2013, 02:02:00 AM »

It's the result of allowing your country to be invaded. How about England for the English, and Saudi Arabia for the Saudi's? Some of these western countries are on a death march. They should kick out the trouble makers and reverse course fast on their immigration policy. 
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2013, 02:36:45 AM »

I think Muslims are having enough problems fighting amongst themselves at the moment...
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2013, 04:58:32 AM »

I just hope we're talking Shia Islam, as it is now (parts of) Sunni Islam is much more violent towards Christianity.

We're also not threatening to disown or murder our children if they apostatize. Orthodoxy values human freedom; hence Christ not forcing anything on anyone. But Islam is really not afraid to use force or violence to prevent apostasy.

Fun fact: Apostasy has the death penalty in Iran (something that is often mentioned by media), but it has never carried one of the death sentences out.
Practically it's a prison sentence.


Arms dealing, incitement, puppet governments, coups. All of this is a result of the Western world meddling in the Middle East. In a region they don't even understand. They just want to get their hands on the economic benefits.

It's very unfortunate. Violence against Orthodox people in the middle east increased during the Roman Catholic crusades. It's very close to the same now.
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2013, 05:02:41 AM »

I don't think Islam will take over the World. But I do believe Islam is one of the tools of the Anti-Christ.


Didn't St. John warn us and said that the Beast will kill by cutting off of heads (Beheading)?


"..and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.." [Rev. 20:4].

Who other than the Muslims behead people in the 21st century? They also wear the false prophets name around their head which is the blasphemous shehada, which says that Muhammad the false prophet is a prophet of God.

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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2013, 08:25:21 AM »

I'm not Orthodox.  But I feel that whoever wrote the article seemed to be fear mongering.   Ever since 9/11, the American media has been on "The Muslim is gonna get you" crusade.   Things have been toning down lately, thankfully. 

Secondly, I think the question should be  "Which version of Islam is trying to take over the world?".  Are you referring to the hardliner Salafi's also known as Wahabi's which are dominant in Saudi Arabia?  Or are you referring to other schools of thought?  Some take the Qur'an and Islam very literally and apply everything they can word for word, these seem to be more fanatical. 

Other Muslims don't take the Qur'an or the ahadith (Sayings of the Prophet) so literally, and are more open to progressive ideas which have become mainstream in our Western culture here in the States.   There are many sects or versions of Islam,  sort of like the differences you noted within Christendom.   However the differences are on a different level, and are not doctrinal differences -- but more issues of how to lay everything into practice. 
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2013, 08:36:23 AM »

In what way did they stoke the flames?




However, the West's support of the pro-Islam forces isn't helpful. I love how Obama and Kerry lambaste the Muslims for killing each other, when it was them who stoked the flames.


Why would Obama support an Islamist Government such as Muslim Brotherhood when they are trying to battle with extremists??

Arms dealing, incitement, puppet governments, coups. All of this is a result of the Western world meddling in the Middle East. In a region they don't even understand. They just want to get their hands on the economic benefits.
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2013, 08:53:40 AM »

It's the result of allowing your country to be invaded. How about England for the English, and Saudi Arabia for the Saudi's? Some of these western countries are on a death march. They should kick out the trouble makers and reverse course fast on their immigration policy. 

It does not work like that. Muslims insist on their rights here and campaigning about the fact that Muslims are largely underrepresented in the British politics. And go out and preach hatred against the West openly on streets of England (although ,this is a minority, most Muslims are fine). But it is the fact that they wish their rights to be respected, but if Christians, or any other religions, were to go to Saudi Arabia then we would have to comply and obey their religious laws and traditional dress wear, would not be even be able to build a Church or be seen wearing a Cross. I suppose it is their country and they want new comers to comply with it, fair enough when in Rome do as the Roams do...While in England it is the opposite, when politely give a smile to somebody and can't even have a smile back (as we like it in Britain) from a face that's covered in black burqas/niqabs...And the Government is just sat there watching Britishness/Christianity being lost as if there is no sense of pride to be Christian...what is on their mind only politicians know!

I've just come back from Russia and glad that things have changed since the Communism regime and I was extremely happy to see Christianity is growing there.
Now I know at least one country where Christians are proud to be Christians and where Christianity is on the rise!

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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2013, 09:04:00 AM »



It's very unfortunate. Violence against Orthodox people in the middle east increased during the Roman Catholic crusades. It's very close to the same now.

Yeah, that is the thing! Christians are persecuted in many Muslims countries, but Muslims in Christian countries are welcomed and we let them do what they like..

It makes me wonder,if many dont like the western way of life, why they move to non Muslim countries if they want to be ruled by Sharia, why dont they move to rich places like Saudi,Qatar or Dubai etc But they move to non Muslim countries nevertheless just to show that we are wrong here,why..I dont understand it.
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2013, 09:12:19 AM »

I'm not Orthodox.  But I feel that whoever wrote the article seemed to be fear mongering.   Ever since 9/11, the American media has been on "The Muslim is gonna get you" crusade.   Things have been toning down lately, thankfully. 

Secondly, I think the question should be  "Which version of Islam is trying to take over the world?".  Are you referring to the hardliner Salafi's also known as Wahabi's which are dominant in Saudi Arabia?  Or are you referring to other schools of thought?  Some take the Qur'an and Islam very literally and apply everything they can word for word, these seem to be more fanatical. 

Other Muslims don't take the Qur'an or the ahadith (Sayings of the Prophet) so literally, and are more open to progressive ideas which have become mainstream in our Western culture here in the States.   There are many sects or versions of Islam,  sort of like the differences you noted within Christendom.   However the differences are on a different level, and are not doctrinal differences -- but more issues of how to lay everything into practice. 

The reason Wahabis are literalists is because in Qur'an it does say you can't pick and chose what to follow, you have to follow everything written in the Qur'an, hence there are people like Wahabi's in Saudi and other places who follow it all literally as if they dont it would, probably, make them Munafiqeen, which are seen as transgressors according to Qur'an.   
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2013, 06:53:20 PM »

So, when are the ev0l Muslims who live in the West going to get forcibly sterilized?
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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2013, 07:43:00 PM »

LOL. 
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2013, 07:47:49 PM »

Skimmed this thread for the first time. The ignorance on display is scary.
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »

So, when are the ev0l Muslims who live in the West going to get forcibly sterilized?

When the president's/chancellor's/prime minister's daughter comes home with a boyfriend who looks like Khalid Sheikh Muhammad.
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2013, 08:11:14 PM »

Skimmed this thread for the first time. The ignorance on display is scary.

Pfft...I can be way more ignorant than this.

This thread is tame. Theophilos78 hasn't even shown up to show off his excruciatingly-precise pronunciation of 'Hanukkah'. Just you wait.
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2013, 08:16:08 PM »

Hi dear Brothers and Sisters,...If you look at the Muslim by Country chart, you will see they are in every country on the face of the earth, and growing exponentially....
Yes, they are growing faster than Christians, because Muslim women love children more than do Christian women. In our neighborhood, there is a Muslim family with 7 children and another one on the way. They just love their children greatly. However, in the local Church I attend, most families have two children and contracept in one way or another after that. My guess is that Christians just do not like having too many children around. In fact, if you look at statistics for the Orthodox country of Russia, you find that Russia has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world today. What does this indicate except that these Christians regard children as a burden of some sort, and not as a blessing, and they must be killed before they are born. The statistics tell the story.  Some time ago, contraception was considered to be a sin in many Christian Churches, but not so much so now, with the possible exception of the Traditional Roman Catholics and the Orthodox who hold to the older beliefs.  
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« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2013, 08:23:49 PM »





This thread.

Oh, man.  I really needed a laugh like this tonight.  Like Iconodule, I just noticed this thread tonight and briefly skimmed it over and...oh man...it's got the anti-Jewish thing going on, the neanderthalic statements about the "Third World", the conspiracy theories, the xenophobia, the crude stereotypes...and the capper...it all started with a thread from some millennialist "rapture forum", which might be a "Catholic site"!  Oh man, I actually did Danny Thomas spit take with my Sprite on that one.  All this thread needs is a reference to the Reptilians from Alpha Draconis to be complete.  Thanks, guys.  You made my night.  Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2013, 08:27:33 PM »

Hi dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am officially asking yout to provide sourcelink of this text. You have 24 hours to comply. TIA.

http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/prophecy-end-times-chat/75601-will-there-muslim-takeover.html

I am not sure, it may be a Catholic's forum, just came across. I wanted to know the opinions of the Orthodox

That site isn't any kind of Catholic forum, my first clue being a forum which refers to the "Cult of Rome" and has a separate forum for all those religions in error due to having works as part of salvation.  It's protestant, and so all those subforums they label as cults and those in error are particularly ironic. 
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2013, 03:17:55 PM »

I would like to think if the muslims become too ambitious the west will wake up and win against them.
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2013, 04:26:29 PM »

Islam won't take over the world, and to the degree it does, it won't look like the Wahhabi flavor.

First off, saying that 80% of Moslems live outside the Arab world is deeply misleading. This isn't the result of a rapid change; it's the way things have been for centuries. Indonesia is Moslem, and Pakistan and Bangladesh are Moslem, and so is a large chunk of west-central Asia; India and most central African states have substantial Moslem minorities. Islam in Europe and the Americas is a tiny, tiny minority, and is likely to remain so.

Second, recent Muslim gains in western countries are almost entirely due to immigration. People in western countries aren't converting to Islam in significant numbers, and I don't see that changing.

Third, Muslims come to Western countries because they want to live, to some degree, like westerners. Immigrant communities (plus the occasional convert) will breed "fundamentalists", but even in immigrant ghettos, people don't want to go back to living as they did in Arabia or the back country of Pakistan.
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2013, 05:02:20 PM »

Do magic carpets come from Islam?
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2013, 05:09:02 PM »

Do magic carpets come from Islam?

My investigation into the matter indicates that they originate from Super Mario Bros. 2
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2013, 05:11:12 PM »

Do magic carpets come from Islam?

They were invented by the Caliph Aladdin I.
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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2013, 05:14:34 PM »

Do magic carpets come from Islam?

My investigation into the matter indicates that they originate from Super Mario Bros. 2
A game ahead of its time. Always was a personal favorite.

But really I get confused if it was an Arab or Indian thing. I mean I was gonna bring up Aladdin and all...
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2013, 05:24:48 PM »


This thread.

Oh, man.  I really needed a laugh like this tonight.  Like Iconodule, I just noticed this thread tonight and briefly skimmed it over and...oh man...it's got the anti-Jewish thing going on, the neanderthalic statements about the "Third World", the conspiracy theories, the xenophobia, the crude stereotypes...and the capper...it all started with a thread from some millennialist "rapture forum", which might be a "Catholic site"!  Oh man, I actually did Danny Thomas spit take with my Sprite on that one.  All this thread needs is a reference to the Reptilians from Alpha Draconis to be complete.  Thanks, guys.  You made my night.  Smiley

I didn't notice it either, but ^ you should win some sort of prize for this post. I can't stop laughing.... To think that there are folks who post and who would conclude that rapture fearing millenialists just might be Catholics, might be scarier than than anything else.

And what if the guy that looks like Khalid is cradle Orthodox? Not so implausible, is it?  Then what?? ? ??
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