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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Anti-Semitism  (Read 9147 times) Average Rating: 0
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sdcheung
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« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2005, 04:42:56 PM »


Photios says he's Chinese. What's his name from the other thread was Greek.



are you  seeing a  pattern here?
that we've all been victimized at one point in time by Jews? Smiley
or is it an International conspiracy? , Inter-ethnic conspiracy?
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2005, 04:43:07 PM »


They do have some cute chicks though.

No....that would be your race...lol
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« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2005, 04:43:33 PM »

But if God gives a people land, and says that the land is theirs as an everlasting covenant, then don't they have everlasting ownership of that land no matter what they do?

Nope, nada, OXI
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« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2005, 04:44:21 PM »



No....that would be your race...lol

fine..you take the pudgey ones
I'll take the skiinny cute ones from the North.
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« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2005, 04:46:14 PM »



First, I'm not working-class. I'm not quite sure where that came from.




But my point is the same.....I am working-class, and I have a lot of anger towards the Capitalist system and the Republican Party.  And I am struggling very much to love these people.
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« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2005, 04:48:20 PM »



But my point is the same.....I am working-class, and I have a lot of anger towards the Capitalist system and the Republican Party. And I am struggling very much to love these people.

Join the anarchists.
good program of non-capitalism, anti-republicanism and cute chicks to boot.
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« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2005, 04:52:46 PM »



Nope, nada, OXI

Everlasting means everlasting
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« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2005, 04:54:49 PM »



But my point is the same.....I am working-class, and I have a lot of anger towards the Capitalist system and the Republican Party.

You are "working-class" because you choose to be "working-class". Blaming "the man" is not the reason.
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« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2005, 04:55:49 PM »

Dear Matthew777.....

The promise was conditional....it was contingent on Israel being faithful to God....which they were not....ergo the promise was revoked.
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« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2005, 04:56:10 PM »

But if God gives a people land, and says that the land is theirs as an everlasting covenant, then don't they have everlasting ownership of that land no matter what they do?

OK, read Romans. in the Church, the Jews and Gentiles become one. The Church is the New Israel. So we are the "true" Israel in the sense that we are the descendents of the Jews who accepted Christ and the Gentiles who joined the Church. It should be noted that the Gentiles who joined the Church are how the prophecy that the 10 lost tribes would be restored would come about--because those Gentiles that returned included the descendents of all the tribes that were scattered by the Babylonians. So only in the Church is the fulness of the True Israel to be found, and we are the inheritors of all the Old Testament covenants.

(I say all this in the religious sense. I would not subscribe to any of the racist "British Israel" theories or anything like that, and I do acknowledge the Jews in Israel as the descendents of the biblical Jews in a historical sense, unlike some appear to do. Just want to make that clear.)
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« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2005, 04:56:23 PM »



Everlasting means everlasting

yes for us Orthodox Christians regarding the Holy land, not for the other party
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« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2005, 04:57:21 PM »

Is this devolving into a political discussion?

I am a political independent, but I understand full well why a member of the working class would support the Republican Party. How could a man be asked to vote against his deepest set moral beliefs?
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« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2005, 04:58:18 PM »



You are "working-class" because you choose to be "working-class". Blaming "the man" is not the reason.


Perhaps we can start another thread about that....but anyway, I was just making a point about Christians struggling to love others.
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« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2005, 04:59:43 PM »



Perhaps we can start another thread about that....but anyway, I was just making a point about Christians struggling to love others.

Hmm Love others Platonically or Biblically "Know"?
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« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

Perhaps we can start another thread about that....but anyway, I was just making a point about Christians struggling to love others.

Okay. Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood.
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« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2005, 05:00:20 PM »

I am quite positive that there is a disclaimer on the home-page warning from American political discussions. I apologize for breaking that rule.

p.s. Matthew777 and TomS....I do have answers to those
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« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2005, 05:00:30 PM »

No American Political Discussion Please Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2005, 05:14:54 PM »

Hate is most certainly not an Orthdox virtue.  Opposing Zionism is most certainly not anti-semitic.

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« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2005, 05:17:46 PM »

Here's an interesting question:

It seems that you're obviously in the military (so was I)....how do you feel about serving for a government with an obvious pro-Zionist stance.

I'm not chiding you....remember, I was in the military too.
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« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2005, 05:31:31 PM »

Join the anarchists.
good program of non-capitalism, anti-republicanism and cute chicks to boot.

Cute chicks? I guess after your third or fourth puff on the bong, the butch behind the Wild Oats counter might be worth a second look. If your personal tastes aren't too picky, that is.
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« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2005, 05:36:28 PM »

I'm with Jennifer on this one. I've never understand why some people have ill feelings towards jewish people. What are they supposed to do anyway when thier people are being blown up by crazy palestinians? I would also be building a wall and having the military root out the terrorist. I'm really for niether side and beleive each side has to do what's best for thier own people. Also, someone mentioned that jews own newspapers etc., well they worked for it and bought these insitutions fair and square so what are they supposed to do give them up because some people think they shouldn't own anything?
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« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2005, 05:36:44 PM »



Cute chicks? I guess after your third or fourth puff on the bong, the butch behind the Wild Oats counter might be worth a second look. If your personal tastes aren't too picky, that is.

LOL.....well I do have a thing for muscular women....but that's just me
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« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2005, 05:43:04 PM »



LOL.....well I do have a thing for muscular women....but that's just me

man after my ow heart?
You like Tomboys?
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« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2005, 05:44:22 PM »

I'm with Jennifer on this one. I've never understand why some people have ill feelings towards jewish people. What are they supposed to do anyway when thier people are being blown up by crazy palestinians? I would also be building a wall and having the military root out the terrorist. I'm really for niether side and beleive each side has to do what's best for thier own people. Also, someone mentioned that jews own newspapers etc., well they worked for it and bought these insitutions fair and square so what are they supposed to do give them up because some people think they shouldn't own anything?

yesh, thats how they they brainwash us all. and misinform us. we need REAL news. Not one sided, pro-israeli pro-zionist news.
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« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2005, 05:46:50 PM »

hahahah.....sdcheung: read any book by Noam Chomsky

Even though he's Jewish (ironically), he'd thoroughly agree with you on such matters
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« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2005, 05:55:31 PM »

hahahah.....sdcheung: read any book by Noam Chomsky

Even though he's Jewish (ironically), he'd thoroughly agree with you on such matters

heh..hopefully a secularized, de-religionized, de-historirized jew.
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« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2005, 05:56:50 PM »

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yesh, thats how they they brainwash us all. and misinform us. we need REAL news. Not one sided, pro-israeli pro-zionist news.

Are you serious? I've never noticed this bias I guess. The news seems pretty left wing to me (maybe accept for fox news). If anything they take the middle road from what I can tell on the Isreali/Palestinian issue.
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« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2005, 05:58:28 PM »



Are you serious? I've never noticed this bias I guess. The news seems pretty left wing to me (maybe accept for fox news). If anything they take the middle road from what I can tell on the Isreali/Palestinian issue.

Left-wing?  are you kidding me?  How can an institution which is paid for by billion-dollar corporations possibly be left-wing?

And, sdcheung....yes, Noam Chomsky is very much so
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« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2005, 06:10:57 PM »

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Left-wing?  are you kidding me?  How can an institution which is paid for by billion-dollar corporations possibly be left-wing?

Uhhh, maybe the fact that 90% of people in newsrooms identify themselves as being on the left side of things. Now for the people that own these corporations, not sure about that but I'm not sure why they would be hiring leftist if they aren't themselves. 
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« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2005, 06:16:08 PM »

I'm sorry....but I have a hard time believing that people who make millions of dollars a year would be so willing to support a system that would take their money (rightfully I might add) away from them
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« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2005, 06:28:24 PM »

Code:
The news seems pretty left wing to me (maybe accept for fox news). If anything they take the middle road from what I can tell on the Isreali/Palestinian issue.
Fox News MAYBE not left ? They are on the extreme right, and they are the voice of the Israeli government. In fact, all newschannels and programs are on the Israeli side. 
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« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2005, 06:32:28 PM »

Really how can anyone be anti-semitic? Arabs are semites I don't hate them. Jews I dislike, But I don't "hate" them. and YET the jews tell me to Hate Arabs because they blow themselves up in a jerusalem market. bah.

[just joining this thread now] I've made this point on another, non-religious forum that I frequent. At face value, what you just said is logical, but the problem is that the word "Anti-Semite" or Anti-Semitism was invented to ONLY refer to the hatred of Jews - a PC version of the word German word Judenhass. Since I try not to hate anyone, the concept of anti-semitism bothers me, but I was confused by trying to point out to others the meaning of the phrase - at face value. We just have problems how with how society changes the meaning/trivializes/etc. of words by way of common usage (e.g. gay, Epiphany, ecumenical, etc.) - especially the religious words, which bothers those of us who actually try and take our religion seriously.

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« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2005, 06:40:50 PM »

I think it must be realized by many that there are evil people everywhere. In fact, I would argue that such individuals predominate on the earth. They predominate in all communities, especially political ones. I watch the Palestinian militants wage a war that takes more Arab lives, Arab money and Arab grief than it does Israeli. What is the point? They are hurting themselves. The Israelis then just perpetuate the problem by attacking bistandors (people's little brothers/sisters and mothers etc). They view Palestinians as "guilty by association". The Israeli government and leadership is horridly racist against Arabs. This kind of evil is displayed in my country (Syria), Iraq and elsewhere against Israelis. The Lebanese "Christians" (ie Maronites) waged an unrelenting war against Palestinians and Arabs in Lebanon as did Arab-Druze-Palestinian-Muslim groups. They are both evil evil factions that solve no problem. One (Maronite) was perpetuating a racist system (the Lebanese status quo keeping Orthodox, Muslim and Druze subordinate to a Maronite minority) against everyone else with help from Israel. The other side was no better. Then my country came in and helped to ruin the hopes and dreams of many generations of Lebanese of all backgrounds. People take out their anger on people who usually have nothing to do with their problem. What did Palestinians have to do with Lebanon's changing demographic? Nothing at all. The Muslims (Lebanese) just were breeding faster than the Maronites were and the MAronites were no longer a majority and could not justiy their system anymore. And people in Lebanon wanted a stake in society. Thy deneyd it to them and blamed the other (Palestinian refugees). Israelis get mad at suicide bombers and punish the bombers, mother, grandparents, little relatives, children etc. and make more hate and more trouble. The people in power in most places (be they Jewish, Arab, Muslim w/e in w/e country) usually don't have what's right in mind. They have what comes naturally to them as a response to violence or any preceived threat, they kill something. That's what's killing our countries. It's not a Jewish thing it's a stupid people thing and people who try to make it into a Jewish thing are in the catogory of "stupid people". Anti-Semitism, anti-Arabism, most forms of nationalism, racism etc. are all stupid people things.

Quote
Really how can anyone be anti-semitic? Arabs are semites I don't hate them. Jews I dislike, But I don't "hate" them. and YET the jews tell me to Hate Arabs because they blow themselves up in a jerusalem market. bah.



You should hate those bombers. They do nothing for Palestine. You should ahte the IDF that run over people's houses because they're about the same thing. Don't argue over wording, people use "Semite" to mean Jew. I am Arab, I am not a Semite. There is no Semitic race. UNless you are asking Hitler. In that case, Ariel Sharon and I are inferior semites and the dog (Shah) of Iran and Silvio Burlisconi are superior Aryan (note that "dog" was not to mean I dislike Persians, I am dating a nice Persian girl, but the Shah was a dog).  Semite has no real meaning out side of linguistics. Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, Phoenician are semitic languages. I can speak English, and I Germanic man? I know Swedish too, am I a Swede? No. Catch my drift? When Hitler said that he was anti-Semitic, he ment he was anti-Jewish. That's how anti-Semitic is used in common speech.
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« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2005, 06:43:17 PM »

I'm sorry....but I have a hard time believing that people who make millions of dollars a year would be so willing to support a system that would take their money (rightfully I might add) away from them

But the system doesn't take their money away. Every left-wing politician who promises to punish the rich guy is in fact punishing only the rich guy who isn't in the industry that funds his campaign. You'll see the high-tech companies and telecoms fund the Democrats, and thusly you get telecom deregulation and tax laws favorable to those industries (while these companies in turn frauded their investors during the dot-com/telecom bubble in the 90's). I worked for Sprint Corp. and the old CEO was good buddies with Bill Jeff. And during this time their accounting and phony profits went unabated.

These billion-dollar corporations are among the biggest proponents of laws, regulations, and big government out there. They petition the government to pass regulations that give them a leg up while hurting their competitors and small businesses. And they'll gladly put the violence and smuck on our tv screens and turn the minds of our kids to mush, if it makes them an extra dollar.

Then you've got those in the moneyed class, so to speak, who inherited their wealth and are often very left-wing. They don't associate hard work, self-determination, and personal responsibility with wealth creation. In their minds, wealth is something you can't gain honestly through personal initiative, but either through dishonesty or being born in a rich family. Work and strong values are seen as an injustice against the poor who've been duped. Hence, if you're rich, you must've gotten it by dishonest means.
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« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2005, 06:43:29 PM »

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I'm sorry....but I have a hard time believing that people who make millions of dollars a year would be so willing to support a system that would take their money (rightfully I might add) away from them

Take a look at all the rich hollywood idiots and the buffoons they support. It's def. noboby on the right and they are going against thier interest when it comes purely to money.
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« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2005, 06:45:33 PM »

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I'd prefer to discuss why anti-semitism and Orthodoxy seem to go hand in hand.
They do not go hand in hand..... that is the simple answer, and I do not know of any authentic writing or original teachings that propagate hatred against any race.
However, it seems that to disapprove of the Israeli state politics is equal to being a racist in nowadays circles, which is a distortion. This are politics, based on interests, and nothing else, and I believe the media should try to cover it as such without trying to shuff in some morals and try to make it look as the bad vs. good thing, a view that never existed in the whole history of struggle between nations.
The same thing with the Palestinians. They are semetic as well,and when criticised , it should be based on actions of the PLO or their political figures and not because they are semetic, arabs or otherwise.

One other thing : The Protestant leaders are sold to the Israeli cause. I do not care about somebody not reading history or having distortd views about the conflict in the Middle East, but what is outrageous is the insistence on making christianity and the interest of Israel one thing, and go the distance in twisting the scripture to support their claims.

I see Protestantism growing to be the very same it rejected once in the 16th century. They refused to mix politics with religion, now they are all involved in it to their neck and trying to motivate political positions from the Bible, only they are serving their own ends.
They rejected the authority of the Pope, and now every pastor in the smallest church in a town is at liberity to introduce new teachings.

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« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2005, 06:47:55 PM »

Stavro: amen to that

Strelets: amen to that

I probably just butchered everyone's names....sorry
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« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2005, 06:59:04 PM »

So far as I understand, Orthodoxy teaches that: 1) hating a person is wrong, 2) unjustifiably attacking someone (verbally or physically) is wrong, and 3) non-Orthodox (and particularly non-Christian) groups probably get a good bit right, but nonetheless have wrong beliefs and practices that are open to criticism. When the Church Fathers (e.g., St. Paul, Pseudo-Barnabas, St. John Chrysostom) spoke against Jews or Judaizers, they did so in a dispassionate way, though sometimes using rhetorical methods/devices to drive home their point. To use the words of St. Gregory the Theologian:

Quote
"In some cases we must even be angry, without feeling angry, or treat them with a disdain we do not feel, or manifest despair, though we do not really despair of them, according to the needs of their nature." - Oration 2, 32

Anti-semitism within Orthodoxy happens when someone ignores one of the three principles I mentioned. IMO the solution, as simplistic and obvious as it sounds, is simply to continue: preaching the Gospel, teaching what the Fathers taught, and living the life in Christ. When something is on a sub-cultural level, short of something catastrophic happening you simply cannot teach or educate people out of things such as anti-semitism quickly, but the change has to come about gradually, over a long period of time (normally several generations). Until then, IMO the best correction of anti-semitism is not a sharp rebuke, but a well-chosen word from the Gospel, and allowing them to (figuratively) strike your cheek if necessary.
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« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2005, 07:13:39 PM »

I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.
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« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2005, 07:17:58 PM »

I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.

keep it to yourself
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« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2005, 07:27:12 PM »

It's racist and bigoted to "dislike" members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity. Bigotry and racism are both un-Christian and un-Orthodox.

I agree 100%.
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« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2005, 07:29:16 PM »

I don't like Zionism and I don't like the "State" of Israel. I believe in the Palestinian cause. However, I find Holocaust denial to be appaling, believe that Israel has the right to defend itself to some extent when suicide bombers strike civilians, and find many Jewish people to be models of a strong work ethic and people to look up to.

I think the problem is when people come to an Orthodox Christian site they don't expect to hear Holocaust denial, they don't expect to see things written against the Jewish people as a race, etc.  Zionism in my opinion is fair game for discussion, as is the Jewish religion. But to deny the Holocaust or "downplay it", or issue gross overgeneralizations about Jewish people (such as "Jews are cheap") is distasteful in my view and does not serve to benefit us as Christians, even though I will admit that sometimes these stereotypes are true--yet how often are stereotypes about US true?

Anastasios

This is pretty much what I think too.
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« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2005, 07:37:39 PM »

Six pages in four hours, and there's not so much that is relevant to the topic.  I hope this will change, as this is an interesting subject.
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« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2005, 07:49:57 PM »

Quote
I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.

I agree totally. Some of the rantings I have heard hear against the jews sound familiar with the ones that are  espoused by the "bums" I have seen protesting in the streets,smoking pot and banging on thier drums about the so called injustices' in the world. These are the same kind of people that complain about not finding work as if someone is supposed to hold thier hand and provide everything for them. They rail against capitalism, war, israeli injustice, animal rights, and the evil christians who want to take "choice" away. I find it pretty comical to say the least Grin
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« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2005, 07:52:11 PM »

So far as I understand, Orthodoxy teaches that: 1) hating a person is wrong, 2) unjustifiably attacking someone (verbally or physically) is wrong, and 3) non-Orthodox (and particularly non-Christian) groups probably get a good bit right, but nonetheless have wrong beliefs and practices that are open to criticism. When the Church Fathers (e.g., St. Paul, Pseudo-Barnabas, St. John Chrysostom) spoke against Jews or Judaizers, they did so in a dispassionate way, though sometimes using rhetorical methods/devices to drive home their point. To use the words of St. Gregory the Theologian:



Anti-semitism within Orthodoxy happens when someone ignores one of the three principles I mentioned. IMO the solution, as simplistic and obvious as it sounds, is simply to continue: preaching the Gospel, teaching what the Fathers taught, and living the life in Christ. When something is on a sub-cultural level, short of something catastrophic happening you simply cannot teach or educate people out of things such as anti-semitism quickly, but the change has to come about gradually, over a long period of time (normally several generations). Until then, IMO the best correction of anti-semitism is not a sharp rebuke, but a well-chosen word from the Gospel, and allowing them to (figuratively) strike your cheek if necessary.


I agree with this post very much.
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At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
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