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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Anti-Semitism  (Read 8852 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jennifer
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« on: February 02, 2005, 03:37:11 PM »

I asked this question (perhaps it's rhetorical?) on the thread that was closed.  Why do a certain subset of Orthodox Christians have anti-semitic beliefs? 

We know that the Elders of the Protocols of  Zion was written by the Czar's secret police.  Before the Holocaust, most of the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews happened in Eastern Europe (admittedly also in Roman Catholic Poland and Eastern Catholic Ukraine).  Of course, most European Jews lived in Eastern Europe. 

What sparked this is a very anti-semitic PM I just received where I was informed that it is Un-Orthodox to be friendly to Jews. (netiquette prevents me from identifying the source of the PM)  That's absurd, of course. 

I find this kind of anti-semitic paranoia very embarrasing.  Of course I'm not suggesting that other Christians are immune to this abhorrent behavior.  Maybe the better question is why are so many Christians anti-semitic? 

Let's put aside discussions of Israel here because claims about the Protocols, etc. have nothing to do with Israel. 

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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2005, 03:44:09 PM »

Jennifer...

Most likely these anti-Semites live in Europe (which is apparent from the mere topic title of that locked thread).

Also, to be Orthodox is to be Christian (obviously).....and Christians are not supposed to be un-friendly toward anyone, I don't care if they're Satanists.

ya dig? Afro
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2005, 03:45:07 PM »

Quote
What sparked this is a very anti-semitic PM I just received where I was informed that it is Un-Orthodox to be friendly to Jews. (netiquette prevents me from identifying the source of the PM)  That's absurd, of course.

I agree, I would add that it is unChristian in general to hold such hateful beliefs to another of God's children.
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At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2005, 03:47:39 PM »

Really how can anyone be anti-semitic? Arabs are semites I don't hate them. Jews I dislike, But I don't "hate" them. and YET the jews tell me to Hate Arabs because they blow themselves up in a jerusalem market. bah.
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2005, 03:48:57 PM »



I agree, I would add that it is unChristian in general to hold such hateful beliefs to another of God's children.

since jews killed jesus, I believe that God has turned his back on them. and gone for us Gentiles and Goyim now. Thus we have the Orthodox Church
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2005, 03:53:22 PM »

God didn't really "turn His back on them" per se.  The Jews "after the flesh" were merely a parenthesis to God's overall plan to global salvation....to Jews "after the Spirit".

In God's progressive revelation, the Church Universal superseded and did away with the physical circumcision.  This is why as Orthodox, we cannot dogmatically support Zionism the way that ultra-Fundamentalist Protestants do.
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2005, 03:54:32 PM »

Really how can anyone be anti-semitic? Arabs are semites I don't hate them. Jews I dislike, But I don't "hate" them. and YET the jews tell me to Hate Arabs because they blow themselves up in a jerusalem market. bah.

It's racist and bigoted to "dislike" members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity.  Bigotry and racism are both un-Christian and un-Orthodox. 
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2005, 03:55:32 PM »



since jews killed jesus, I believe that God has turned his back on them. and gone for us Gentiles and Goyim now. Thus we have the Orthodox Church

God can't turn his back on any of his creatures.  Jews, like Gentiles, are made in the image of God. 

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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2005, 03:58:13 PM »

I don't like Zionism and I don't like the "State" of Israel. I believe in the Palestinian cause. However, I find Holocaust denial to be appaling, believe that Israel has the right to defend itself to some extent when suicide bombers strike civilians, and find many Jewish people to be models of a strong work ethic and people to look up to.

I think the problem is when people come to an Orthodox Christian site they don't expect to hear Holocaust denial, they don't expect to see things written against the Jewish people as a race, etc. Zionism in my opinion is fair game for discussion, as is the Jewish religion. But to deny the Holocaust or "downplay it", or issue gross overgeneralizations about Jewish people (such as "Jews are cheap") is distasteful in my view and does not serve to benefit us as Christians, even though I will admit that sometimes these stereotypes are true--yet how often are stereotypes about US true?

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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2005, 03:59:32 PM »

your equating "dislike" with racism or bigotry.
I'm nopt racist or Bigotted, how can "i" be when IO'm Chinese I know all about racism and Bigotry. trust me the Jews have it good.

They control the media, money institutions etc. Then they whine about the "injustices" that had been done them?
look at me..
I never complained about the stuff the Japanese have done to my people, in Nanking, in Singapore in ww2. We held up our heads stoically. only biding our time. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2005, 03:59:46 PM »

I remember back when I was a Presbyterian (who are all heretics I might add), the minister gave a sermon about how you can dislike someone without hating them.

I totally disagree with that. To dislike someone IS to hate someone. To be angry at someone IS to hate someone.

ya'll hearin' me?
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2005, 04:02:04 PM »


I think the problem is when people come to an Orthodox Christian site they don't expect to hear Holocaust denial, they don't expect to see things written against the Jewish people as a race, etc. 

Precisely and it's SO embarrassing. 

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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2005, 04:04:04 PM »



Precisely and it's SO embarrassing.



Embarassing for you.
not for me or some Cradle Born Orthodox
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2005, 04:04:14 PM »

your equating "dislike" with racism or bigotry.
I'm nopt racist or Bigotted, how can "i" be when IO'm Chinese I know all about racism and Bigotry. trust me the Jews have it good.

They control the media, money institutions etc. Then they whine about the "injustices" that had been done them?
look at me..
I never complained about the stuff the Japanese have done to my people, in Nanking, in Singapore in ww2. We held up our heads stoically. only biding our time. Smiley

This rant is a perfect example of racism and bigotry.  How do you know that "they" control the media, etc? 
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2005, 04:07:12 PM »

read the credits.
read the newspapers sidebars where it says editors and ownership.
chances are they are "orthopoxed"
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2005, 04:07:19 PM »

since jews killed jesus, I believe that God has turned his back on them. and gone for us Gentiles and Goyim now. Thus we have the Orthodox Church

Read Romans 11 and get back to me, sdcheung. We may be here, but he hasn't "turned his back" on the Jewish people for good.
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2005, 04:10:52 PM »

Pedro, was your "religion" above your icon a joke or a typo? Grin

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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2005, 04:12:58 PM »

read the credits.
read the newspapers sidebars where it says editors and ownership.
chances are they are "orthopoxed"

Them Orientals (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, who cares, they all look the same) must be the wealthiest people in the world. 

After all, most of the stuff I own seems to be either made in China, Taiwan, Korea, or Japan.






NOTE:  SARCASM ALERT!  SARCASM ALERT!
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2005, 04:13:23 PM »

Instead of turning this thread into a 'discussion' with anti-semite, I'd prefer to discuss why anti-semitism and Orthodoxy seem to go hand in hand. 

Are our priests and bishops not doing a good enough job teaching about the evils of anti-semitism?  Is it an ethnic thing? 
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2005, 04:14:31 PM »



Them Orientals (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, who cares, they all look the same) must be the wealthiest people in the world.

After all, most of the stuff I own seems to be either made in China, Taiwan, Korea, or Japan.






NOTE: SARCASM ALERT! SARCASM ALERT!

Except for the newspapers.
and we don't order countries to build Holocaust memorials for them
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2005, 04:15:07 PM »

LOL...nah, man...it's a joke. Self-proclaimed church geek here...

Now, as for what you wrote...

To dislike someone IS to hate someone. To be angry at someone IS to hate someone.

ya'll hearin' me?

Eh...I dunno, man. Don't think so.

I mean, there're people I love that I don't necessarily like...I go to Christmas and Thanksgiving too, y'know Afro...but I most definitely don't hate 'em.

Like, if we strongly disagree with someone's motives and actions, and those actions are dangerous to the guy who does them and those around him, or if someone is just plain clueless and annoying, then...is it hating him to say we don't like him?

Don't really think that's what sdcheung was talking about, as what I'm saying usually applies to individual people, but...you feel me?
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2005, 04:15:24 PM »

Instead of turning this thread into a 'discussion' with anti-semite, I'd prefer to discuss why anti-semitism and Orthodoxy seem to go hand in hand.

Are our priests and bishops not doing a good enough job teaching about the evils of anti-semitism? Is it an ethnic thing?

look, don't call me an anti-semite, I love Arabs.
strange isn't it..the jews seem to have also co-opted the name "semite" exclusively for themselves too. I'll counter that too. 
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2005, 04:17:48 PM »

sdcheung....if you study Judaeo-Christian ethnology, many Biblicists would say that Eastern Asian Orientals are ALSO descended from Shem.

FYI
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2005, 04:19:11 PM »



Except for the newspapers.
and we don't order countries to build Holocaust memorials for them


And you missed the entire point of my post.

Have fun at the next cross burning.
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2005, 04:19:27 PM »

sdcheung....if you study Judaeo-Christian ethnology, many Biblicists would say that Eastern Asian Orientals are ALSO descended from Shem.

FYI

maybe, maybe not.
i do know some Chinese Nationalists would be quite entertained by that.
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2005, 04:20:15 PM »




And you missed the entire point of my post.

Have fun at the next cross burning.

yesh.. I chose to ignore it.
cross burning? barbaric.
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2005, 04:22:22 PM »

Instead of turning this thread into a 'discussion' with anti-semite, I'd prefer to discuss why anti-semitism and Orthodoxy seem to go hand in hand.

Are our priests and bishops not doing a good enough job teaching about the evils of anti-semitism? Is it an ethnic thing?

It's really quite simple: anti-semitism and Orthodoxy do NOT go hand in hand.
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2005, 04:22:45 PM »

Quote
yesh.. I chose to ignore it.

Then you are a troll who is not interested in any discussion, and therefore should be ignored.

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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2005, 04:25:15 PM »



look, don't call me an anti-semite, I love Arabs.
strange isn't it..the jews seem to have also co-opted the name "semite" exclusively for themselves too. I'll counter that too.

Even though I strongly disagree with Photios, I have to agree with this one point, it is wrong that Arabs are not considered Semites for the purposes of a discussion of "Anti-Semitism."

Anastasios
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2005, 04:26:45 PM »



Even though I strongly disagree with Photios, I have to agree with this one point, it is wrong that Arabs are not considered Semites for the purposes of a discussion of "Anti-Semitism."

Anastasios

Anti-semitism has an agreed upon meaning, that being anti-Jewish.  As an example, Mexico is part of "America" yet when someone says "anti-American" we all agree that they mean anti-US. 

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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2005, 04:27:28 PM »

Before the Holocaust, most of the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews happened in Eastern Europe (admittedly also in Roman Catholic Poland and Eastern Catholic Ukraine). Of course, most European Jews lived in Eastern Europe.

Jennifer, I’m not certain that your statement is entirely, or even close to factually accurate. Certainly there was a good deal of institutionalized anti-semitism in Tsarist Russia, and differing levels of periodic violence such as the famous Kishinev pogrom. I think this was a phenomenon that manifested itself largely in the 19th century however.

In the larger scope of Western European history there are big events like the Crusades and the Inquisition which stand out, but there was a long history since the early middle ages of persecution of Jews. They were usually confined to specific areas in cities (which was the case in Rome up until the time of Pius IX) and were often subject to outbreaks of mob violence for reasons such as crop failure or the outbreak of the plague.

I’m not sure where the actual majority of Jews lived in Europe prior to the 20th century.

Also, I might note a piece of history that is often overlooked, and that is the fate of the Jews in Bulgaria during WWII. Tzvetan Todorov has written a book that chronicles the protection of Bulgarias Jews during the war, in large support with active support from the Orthodox hierarchy and faithful of that country. Aside from Denmark, Bulgaria was the only Nazi occupied country not to turn over its Jewish population for deportation to the labor and death camps. There are other individuals you could look at such as Mother Maria Skobtsova and Fr. Grigol Peradze.

You might also want to read about the late Fr. Alexander Men who was a Jewish convert to Orthodoxy, or Fr. James Bernstein, again a Jewish convert to Orthodoxy to find out their perspectives on this issue.
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2005, 04:29:03 PM »



Then you are a troll who is not interested in any discussion, and therefore should be ignored.



Do as you wish.
I chose to ignore it, because as one firmly secured in who I am(Culturally, linguistic and History), that stuff doesn't bother me like it does some other people.
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2005, 04:29:59 PM »

I don't like Zionism and I don't like the "State" of Israel. I believe in the Palestinian cause.

You do not believe that the Jews deserve their own nation?

"I will keep my promise to you and to your descendants in future generations as an everlasting covenant. I will be your God and the God of your descendants. I will give to you and to your descendants this land in which you are now a foreigner. The whole land of Canaan will belong to your descendants forever, and I will be their God."
Genesis 17:7-8
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2005, 04:31:05 PM »



It's really quite simple: anti-semitism and Orthodoxy do NOT go hand in hand.

yesh thats true.. we should love all arabs be they Muslim and orthodox, or syrian orthodox Wink
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2005, 04:32:21 PM »

Jennifer....by no means am I supporting anti-semitism in the Church.

but look at it this way.....many Orthodox peoples (Melkites in Lebanon, Jerusalem Patriarchate, etc.) have suffered immensely at the hands of the State of Israel. They have a lot of anger...and even though they know that Christ commanded us to love, they nevertheless struggle very much to do so.

Just like I'm sure,--assuming off-hand that you're working class--that you struggle very much to love the Republican Pary and the rich.
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2005, 04:32:49 PM »



You do not believe that the Jews deserve their own nation?

"I will keep my promise to you and to your descendants in future generations as an everlasting covenant. I will be your God and the God of your descendants. I will give to you and to your descendants this land in which you are now a foreigner. The whole land of Canaan will belong to your descendants forever, and I will be their God."
Genesis 17:7-8

That was in the Old Covenant.
They should be in the New Covenant. Rather We orthodox are New Covenant Jews.
and we held Palestine for a time. During the Empire. Wink
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2005, 04:33:29 PM »



Anti-semitism has an agreed upon meaning, that being anti-Jewish. As an example, Mexico is part of "America" yet when someone says "anti-American" we all agree that they mean anti-US.



And I believe that the term can and should be changed to include all Semites. Is Photios anti-Jewish? That would be a better question to ask.

Anastasios
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2005, 04:34:26 PM »

But they own the land of Israel through an EVERLASTING Covenant. As Paul said, "The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable".
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2005, 04:35:15 PM »

You're completely right sdcheung......

All the prophecies about Israel were fulfilled by King Solomon's reign.

If you don't believe me, read "A Second Look at the Second Coming"...I forget the name of the author.
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2005, 04:35:29 PM »

But they own the land of Israel through an EVERLASTING Covenant. As Paul said, "The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable".

I thought it was broken when they denied Jesus.
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« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2005, 04:36:12 PM »



You do not believe that the Jews deserve their own nation?

"I will keep my promise to you and to your descendants in future generations as an everlasting covenant. I will be your God and the God of your descendants. I will give to you and to your descendants this land in which you are now a foreigner. The whole land of Canaan will belong to your descendants forever, and I will be their God."
Genesis 17:7-8

No, I do not believe that the Jews deserve their own nation in a political sense, although now that they have it, and there are people born there that have nothing to do with their forefathers' actions, I think they have a right to defend their homeland, but am uncomfortable with it nonetheless.

In a religious sense, the Church is the New Israel so that passage you referenced refers to the Church. The Christian people will always have a right to have a home in the Holy Land.

Anastasios
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« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2005, 04:36:38 PM »

But they own the land of Israel through an EVERLASTING Covenant. As Paul said, "The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable".

Just to be clear, that covenant is with us, after 33 AD.
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« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2005, 04:37:43 PM »



And I believe that the term can and should be changed to include all Semites. Is Photios anti-Jewish? That would be a better question to ask.

Anastasios

LOL..not anti-Jewish.
I do like secular, de-religionized, de-historized Jews. ie. Passover jews (like our Christmas-Easter Christians.)
and willing to leave us (me) alone about the past.
They do have some cute chicks though.
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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2005, 04:40:41 PM »

Jennifer....by no means am I supporting anti-semitism in the Church.

but look at it this way.....many Orthodox peoples (Melkites in Lebanon, Jerusalem Patriarchate, etc.) have suffered immensely at the hands of the State of Israel.  They have a lot of anger...and even though they know that Christ commanded us to love, they nevertheless struggle very much to do so.

Just like I'm sure,--assuming off-hand that you're working class--that you struggle very much to love the Republican Pary and the rich.

First, I'm not working-class.  I'm not quite sure where that came from. 

Being opposed to Israel does not equate to being against Jews.  Photios wrote that he "dislikes" Jews.  Without eve knowing them as individuals. That is racism, pure and simple. 

I can understand the anger directed towards the state of Israel and how it's difficult to separate it from the Jewish people.  However, none of the raving anti-semites I've seen on Orthodox boards are Palestinian.  Photios says he's Chinese.  What's his name from the other thread was Greek. 

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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2005, 04:42:04 PM »

But if God gives a people land, and says that the land is theirs as an everlasting covenant, then don't they have everlasting ownership of that land no matter what they do?
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« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2005, 04:42:56 PM »


Photios says he's Chinese. What's his name from the other thread was Greek.



are you  seeing a  pattern here?
that we've all been victimized at one point in time by Jews? Smiley
or is it an International conspiracy? , Inter-ethnic conspiracy?
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2005, 04:43:07 PM »


They do have some cute chicks though.

No....that would be your race...lol
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« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2005, 04:43:33 PM »

But if God gives a people land, and says that the land is theirs as an everlasting covenant, then don't they have everlasting ownership of that land no matter what they do?

Nope, nada, OXI
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« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2005, 04:44:21 PM »



No....that would be your race...lol

fine..you take the pudgey ones
I'll take the skiinny cute ones from the North.
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« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2005, 04:46:14 PM »



First, I'm not working-class. I'm not quite sure where that came from.




But my point is the same.....I am working-class, and I have a lot of anger towards the Capitalist system and the Republican Party.  And I am struggling very much to love these people.
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« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2005, 04:48:20 PM »



But my point is the same.....I am working-class, and I have a lot of anger towards the Capitalist system and the Republican Party. And I am struggling very much to love these people.

Join the anarchists.
good program of non-capitalism, anti-republicanism and cute chicks to boot.
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« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2005, 04:52:46 PM »



Nope, nada, OXI

Everlasting means everlasting
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« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2005, 04:54:49 PM »



But my point is the same.....I am working-class, and I have a lot of anger towards the Capitalist system and the Republican Party.

You are "working-class" because you choose to be "working-class". Blaming "the man" is not the reason.
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« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2005, 04:55:49 PM »

Dear Matthew777.....

The promise was conditional....it was contingent on Israel being faithful to God....which they were not....ergo the promise was revoked.
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« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2005, 04:56:10 PM »

But if God gives a people land, and says that the land is theirs as an everlasting covenant, then don't they have everlasting ownership of that land no matter what they do?

OK, read Romans. in the Church, the Jews and Gentiles become one. The Church is the New Israel. So we are the "true" Israel in the sense that we are the descendents of the Jews who accepted Christ and the Gentiles who joined the Church. It should be noted that the Gentiles who joined the Church are how the prophecy that the 10 lost tribes would be restored would come about--because those Gentiles that returned included the descendents of all the tribes that were scattered by the Babylonians. So only in the Church is the fulness of the True Israel to be found, and we are the inheritors of all the Old Testament covenants.

(I say all this in the religious sense. I would not subscribe to any of the racist "British Israel" theories or anything like that, and I do acknowledge the Jews in Israel as the descendents of the biblical Jews in a historical sense, unlike some appear to do. Just want to make that clear.)
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« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2005, 04:56:23 PM »



Everlasting means everlasting

yes for us Orthodox Christians regarding the Holy land, not for the other party
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« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2005, 04:57:21 PM »

Is this devolving into a political discussion?

I am a political independent, but I understand full well why a member of the working class would support the Republican Party. How could a man be asked to vote against his deepest set moral beliefs?
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« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2005, 04:58:18 PM »



You are "working-class" because you choose to be "working-class". Blaming "the man" is not the reason.


Perhaps we can start another thread about that....but anyway, I was just making a point about Christians struggling to love others.
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« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2005, 04:59:43 PM »



Perhaps we can start another thread about that....but anyway, I was just making a point about Christians struggling to love others.

Hmm Love others Platonically or Biblically "Know"?
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« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »

Perhaps we can start another thread about that....but anyway, I was just making a point about Christians struggling to love others.

Okay. Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood.
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« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2005, 05:00:20 PM »

I am quite positive that there is a disclaimer on the home-page warning from American political discussions. I apologize for breaking that rule.

p.s. Matthew777 and TomS....I do have answers to those
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« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2005, 05:00:30 PM »

No American Political Discussion Please Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2005, 05:14:54 PM »

Hate is most certainly not an Orthdox virtue.  Opposing Zionism is most certainly not anti-semitic.

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« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2005, 05:17:46 PM »

Here's an interesting question:

It seems that you're obviously in the military (so was I)....how do you feel about serving for a government with an obvious pro-Zionist stance.

I'm not chiding you....remember, I was in the military too.
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« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2005, 05:31:31 PM »

Join the anarchists.
good program of non-capitalism, anti-republicanism and cute chicks to boot.

Cute chicks? I guess after your third or fourth puff on the bong, the butch behind the Wild Oats counter might be worth a second look. If your personal tastes aren't too picky, that is.
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« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2005, 05:36:28 PM »

I'm with Jennifer on this one. I've never understand why some people have ill feelings towards jewish people. What are they supposed to do anyway when thier people are being blown up by crazy palestinians? I would also be building a wall and having the military root out the terrorist. I'm really for niether side and beleive each side has to do what's best for thier own people. Also, someone mentioned that jews own newspapers etc., well they worked for it and bought these insitutions fair and square so what are they supposed to do give them up because some people think they shouldn't own anything?
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« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2005, 05:36:44 PM »



Cute chicks? I guess after your third or fourth puff on the bong, the butch behind the Wild Oats counter might be worth a second look. If your personal tastes aren't too picky, that is.

LOL.....well I do have a thing for muscular women....but that's just me
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« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2005, 05:43:04 PM »



LOL.....well I do have a thing for muscular women....but that's just me

man after my ow heart?
You like Tomboys?
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« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2005, 05:44:22 PM »

I'm with Jennifer on this one. I've never understand why some people have ill feelings towards jewish people. What are they supposed to do anyway when thier people are being blown up by crazy palestinians? I would also be building a wall and having the military root out the terrorist. I'm really for niether side and beleive each side has to do what's best for thier own people. Also, someone mentioned that jews own newspapers etc., well they worked for it and bought these insitutions fair and square so what are they supposed to do give them up because some people think they shouldn't own anything?

yesh, thats how they they brainwash us all. and misinform us. we need REAL news. Not one sided, pro-israeli pro-zionist news.
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« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2005, 05:46:50 PM »

hahahah.....sdcheung: read any book by Noam Chomsky

Even though he's Jewish (ironically), he'd thoroughly agree with you on such matters
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« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2005, 05:55:31 PM »

hahahah.....sdcheung: read any book by Noam Chomsky

Even though he's Jewish (ironically), he'd thoroughly agree with you on such matters

heh..hopefully a secularized, de-religionized, de-historirized jew.
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« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2005, 05:56:50 PM »

Quote
yesh, thats how they they brainwash us all. and misinform us. we need REAL news. Not one sided, pro-israeli pro-zionist news.

Are you serious? I've never noticed this bias I guess. The news seems pretty left wing to me (maybe accept for fox news). If anything they take the middle road from what I can tell on the Isreali/Palestinian issue.
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« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2005, 05:58:28 PM »



Are you serious? I've never noticed this bias I guess. The news seems pretty left wing to me (maybe accept for fox news). If anything they take the middle road from what I can tell on the Isreali/Palestinian issue.

Left-wing?  are you kidding me?  How can an institution which is paid for by billion-dollar corporations possibly be left-wing?

And, sdcheung....yes, Noam Chomsky is very much so
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« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2005, 06:10:57 PM »

Quote
Left-wing?  are you kidding me?  How can an institution which is paid for by billion-dollar corporations possibly be left-wing?

Uhhh, maybe the fact that 90% of people in newsrooms identify themselves as being on the left side of things. Now for the people that own these corporations, not sure about that but I'm not sure why they would be hiring leftist if they aren't themselves. 
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« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2005, 06:16:08 PM »

I'm sorry....but I have a hard time believing that people who make millions of dollars a year would be so willing to support a system that would take their money (rightfully I might add) away from them
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« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2005, 06:28:24 PM »

Code:
The news seems pretty left wing to me (maybe accept for fox news). If anything they take the middle road from what I can tell on the Isreali/Palestinian issue.
Fox News MAYBE not left ? They are on the extreme right, and they are the voice of the Israeli government. In fact, all newschannels and programs are on the Israeli side. 
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« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2005, 06:32:28 PM »

Really how can anyone be anti-semitic? Arabs are semites I don't hate them. Jews I dislike, But I don't "hate" them. and YET the jews tell me to Hate Arabs because they blow themselves up in a jerusalem market. bah.

[just joining this thread now] I've made this point on another, non-religious forum that I frequent. At face value, what you just said is logical, but the problem is that the word "Anti-Semite" or Anti-Semitism was invented to ONLY refer to the hatred of Jews - a PC version of the word German word Judenhass. Since I try not to hate anyone, the concept of anti-semitism bothers me, but I was confused by trying to point out to others the meaning of the phrase - at face value. We just have problems how with how society changes the meaning/trivializes/etc. of words by way of common usage (e.g. gay, Epiphany, ecumenical, etc.) - especially the religious words, which bothers those of us who actually try and take our religion seriously.

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« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2005, 06:40:50 PM »

I think it must be realized by many that there are evil people everywhere. In fact, I would argue that such individuals predominate on the earth. They predominate in all communities, especially political ones. I watch the Palestinian militants wage a war that takes more Arab lives, Arab money and Arab grief than it does Israeli. What is the point? They are hurting themselves. The Israelis then just perpetuate the problem by attacking bistandors (people's little brothers/sisters and mothers etc). They view Palestinians as "guilty by association". The Israeli government and leadership is horridly racist against Arabs. This kind of evil is displayed in my country (Syria), Iraq and elsewhere against Israelis. The Lebanese "Christians" (ie Maronites) waged an unrelenting war against Palestinians and Arabs in Lebanon as did Arab-Druze-Palestinian-Muslim groups. They are both evil evil factions that solve no problem. One (Maronite) was perpetuating a racist system (the Lebanese status quo keeping Orthodox, Muslim and Druze subordinate to a Maronite minority) against everyone else with help from Israel. The other side was no better. Then my country came in and helped to ruin the hopes and dreams of many generations of Lebanese of all backgrounds. People take out their anger on people who usually have nothing to do with their problem. What did Palestinians have to do with Lebanon's changing demographic? Nothing at all. The Muslims (Lebanese) just were breeding faster than the Maronites were and the MAronites were no longer a majority and could not justiy their system anymore. And people in Lebanon wanted a stake in society. Thy deneyd it to them and blamed the other (Palestinian refugees). Israelis get mad at suicide bombers and punish the bombers, mother, grandparents, little relatives, children etc. and make more hate and more trouble. The people in power in most places (be they Jewish, Arab, Muslim w/e in w/e country) usually don't have what's right in mind. They have what comes naturally to them as a response to violence or any preceived threat, they kill something. That's what's killing our countries. It's not a Jewish thing it's a stupid people thing and people who try to make it into a Jewish thing are in the catogory of "stupid people". Anti-Semitism, anti-Arabism, most forms of nationalism, racism etc. are all stupid people things.

Quote
Really how can anyone be anti-semitic? Arabs are semites I don't hate them. Jews I dislike, But I don't "hate" them. and YET the jews tell me to Hate Arabs because they blow themselves up in a jerusalem market. bah.



You should hate those bombers. They do nothing for Palestine. You should ahte the IDF that run over people's houses because they're about the same thing. Don't argue over wording, people use "Semite" to mean Jew. I am Arab, I am not a Semite. There is no Semitic race. UNless you are asking Hitler. In that case, Ariel Sharon and I are inferior semites and the dog (Shah) of Iran and Silvio Burlisconi are superior Aryan (note that "dog" was not to mean I dislike Persians, I am dating a nice Persian girl, but the Shah was a dog).  Semite has no real meaning out side of linguistics. Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, Phoenician are semitic languages. I can speak English, and I Germanic man? I know Swedish too, am I a Swede? No. Catch my drift? When Hitler said that he was anti-Semitic, he ment he was anti-Jewish. That's how anti-Semitic is used in common speech.
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« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2005, 06:43:17 PM »

I'm sorry....but I have a hard time believing that people who make millions of dollars a year would be so willing to support a system that would take their money (rightfully I might add) away from them

But the system doesn't take their money away. Every left-wing politician who promises to punish the rich guy is in fact punishing only the rich guy who isn't in the industry that funds his campaign. You'll see the high-tech companies and telecoms fund the Democrats, and thusly you get telecom deregulation and tax laws favorable to those industries (while these companies in turn frauded their investors during the dot-com/telecom bubble in the 90's). I worked for Sprint Corp. and the old CEO was good buddies with Bill Jeff. And during this time their accounting and phony profits went unabated.

These billion-dollar corporations are among the biggest proponents of laws, regulations, and big government out there. They petition the government to pass regulations that give them a leg up while hurting their competitors and small businesses. And they'll gladly put the violence and smuck on our tv screens and turn the minds of our kids to mush, if it makes them an extra dollar.

Then you've got those in the moneyed class, so to speak, who inherited their wealth and are often very left-wing. They don't associate hard work, self-determination, and personal responsibility with wealth creation. In their minds, wealth is something you can't gain honestly through personal initiative, but either through dishonesty or being born in a rich family. Work and strong values are seen as an injustice against the poor who've been duped. Hence, if you're rich, you must've gotten it by dishonest means.
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« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2005, 06:43:29 PM »

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I'm sorry....but I have a hard time believing that people who make millions of dollars a year would be so willing to support a system that would take their money (rightfully I might add) away from them

Take a look at all the rich hollywood idiots and the buffoons they support. It's def. noboby on the right and they are going against thier interest when it comes purely to money.
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« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2005, 06:45:33 PM »

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I'd prefer to discuss why anti-semitism and Orthodoxy seem to go hand in hand.
They do not go hand in hand..... that is the simple answer, and I do not know of any authentic writing or original teachings that propagate hatred against any race.
However, it seems that to disapprove of the Israeli state politics is equal to being a racist in nowadays circles, which is a distortion. This are politics, based on interests, and nothing else, and I believe the media should try to cover it as such without trying to shuff in some morals and try to make it look as the bad vs. good thing, a view that never existed in the whole history of struggle between nations.
The same thing with the Palestinians. They are semetic as well,and when criticised , it should be based on actions of the PLO or their political figures and not because they are semetic, arabs or otherwise.

One other thing : The Protestant leaders are sold to the Israeli cause. I do not care about somebody not reading history or having distortd views about the conflict in the Middle East, but what is outrageous is the insistence on making christianity and the interest of Israel one thing, and go the distance in twisting the scripture to support their claims.

I see Protestantism growing to be the very same it rejected once in the 16th century. They refused to mix politics with religion, now they are all involved in it to their neck and trying to motivate political positions from the Bible, only they are serving their own ends.
They rejected the authority of the Pope, and now every pastor in the smallest church in a town is at liberity to introduce new teachings.

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« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2005, 06:47:55 PM »

Stavro: amen to that

Strelets: amen to that

I probably just butchered everyone's names....sorry
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« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2005, 06:59:04 PM »

So far as I understand, Orthodoxy teaches that: 1) hating a person is wrong, 2) unjustifiably attacking someone (verbally or physically) is wrong, and 3) non-Orthodox (and particularly non-Christian) groups probably get a good bit right, but nonetheless have wrong beliefs and practices that are open to criticism. When the Church Fathers (e.g., St. Paul, Pseudo-Barnabas, St. John Chrysostom) spoke against Jews or Judaizers, they did so in a dispassionate way, though sometimes using rhetorical methods/devices to drive home their point. To use the words of St. Gregory the Theologian:

Quote
"In some cases we must even be angry, without feeling angry, or treat them with a disdain we do not feel, or manifest despair, though we do not really despair of them, according to the needs of their nature." - Oration 2, 32

Anti-semitism within Orthodoxy happens when someone ignores one of the three principles I mentioned. IMO the solution, as simplistic and obvious as it sounds, is simply to continue: preaching the Gospel, teaching what the Fathers taught, and living the life in Christ. When something is on a sub-cultural level, short of something catastrophic happening you simply cannot teach or educate people out of things such as anti-semitism quickly, but the change has to come about gradually, over a long period of time (normally several generations). Until then, IMO the best correction of anti-semitism is not a sharp rebuke, but a well-chosen word from the Gospel, and allowing them to (figuratively) strike your cheek if necessary.
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« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2005, 07:13:39 PM »

I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.
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« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2005, 07:17:58 PM »

I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.

keep it to yourself
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« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2005, 07:27:12 PM »

It's racist and bigoted to "dislike" members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity. Bigotry and racism are both un-Christian and un-Orthodox.

I agree 100%.
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« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2005, 07:29:16 PM »

I don't like Zionism and I don't like the "State" of Israel. I believe in the Palestinian cause. However, I find Holocaust denial to be appaling, believe that Israel has the right to defend itself to some extent when suicide bombers strike civilians, and find many Jewish people to be models of a strong work ethic and people to look up to.

I think the problem is when people come to an Orthodox Christian site they don't expect to hear Holocaust denial, they don't expect to see things written against the Jewish people as a race, etc.  Zionism in my opinion is fair game for discussion, as is the Jewish religion. But to deny the Holocaust or "downplay it", or issue gross overgeneralizations about Jewish people (such as "Jews are cheap") is distasteful in my view and does not serve to benefit us as Christians, even though I will admit that sometimes these stereotypes are true--yet how often are stereotypes about US true?

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This is pretty much what I think too.
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« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2005, 07:37:39 PM »

Six pages in four hours, and there's not so much that is relevant to the topic.  I hope this will change, as this is an interesting subject.
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« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2005, 07:49:57 PM »

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I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.

I agree totally. Some of the rantings I have heard hear against the jews sound familiar with the ones that are  espoused by the "bums" I have seen protesting in the streets,smoking pot and banging on thier drums about the so called injustices' in the world. These are the same kind of people that complain about not finding work as if someone is supposed to hold thier hand and provide everything for them. They rail against capitalism, war, israeli injustice, animal rights, and the evil christians who want to take "choice" away. I find it pretty comical to say the least Grin
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« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2005, 07:52:11 PM »

So far as I understand, Orthodoxy teaches that: 1) hating a person is wrong, 2) unjustifiably attacking someone (verbally or physically) is wrong, and 3) non-Orthodox (and particularly non-Christian) groups probably get a good bit right, but nonetheless have wrong beliefs and practices that are open to criticism. When the Church Fathers (e.g., St. Paul, Pseudo-Barnabas, St. John Chrysostom) spoke against Jews or Judaizers, they did so in a dispassionate way, though sometimes using rhetorical methods/devices to drive home their point. To use the words of St. Gregory the Theologian:



Anti-semitism within Orthodoxy happens when someone ignores one of the three principles I mentioned. IMO the solution, as simplistic and obvious as it sounds, is simply to continue: preaching the Gospel, teaching what the Fathers taught, and living the life in Christ. When something is on a sub-cultural level, short of something catastrophic happening you simply cannot teach or educate people out of things such as anti-semitism quickly, but the change has to come about gradually, over a long period of time (normally several generations). Until then, IMO the best correction of anti-semitism is not a sharp rebuke, but a well-chosen word from the Gospel, and allowing them to (figuratively) strike your cheek if necessary.


I agree with this post very much.
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« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2005, 07:53:38 PM »

Matthew and Nacho,

I think anyone that supports the State of Israel unconditionally is anti-Christian.

Anastasios
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« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2005, 07:57:23 PM »

I am of the persuasion that anyone who hates the nation of Israel and supports the Palestinians in their belief that the nation doesn't have the right to exist is an anti-semite. I am not trying to be insulting but that is just how I feel.
1. What if your feelings are wrong ? Can you justify your position and try to connect between both views, which I personally feel are unrelated ?
2. Why is criticism to israel as a state different than criticism to France, Germany, USA, or any other state in history ?
I believe there is opposition in Israel, and they do not approve of all the politics of Israel. Does this make the Jews anti-semitic ?
3. Semitic includes Arabs, whether we like it or not. Just a fact of life. Maybe the better word then is anti-Jews or so.
4. Orthodoxy advocates love for everybody. SO that should take care of replying the original question.
5. As I said, Protestant pastors and preachers have made it almost a sacrament to love Israel. I can argue that approving of the masacre of Sabra and Shatilah, 1982, or Deer Yasin, 1932, or the oppression and occupation of the West Bank and Ghaza are totally against christians morals. On the other hand, I do not approve of corruption of the PLO, or suicide bombers, ..... . It is equally dangerous to try to summarize christianity in loving the Jews ONLY and try to make up promises in the Bible to verify their existence as a state. They do not teach the Bible when they advocate pro-Israeli view, they teach their own interests and those of their sponsors.

I agree totally with Anastasios view.
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« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2005, 08:04:49 PM »

Matthew and Nacho,

I think anyone that supports the State of Israel unconditionally is anti-Christian.

Anastasios

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« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2005, 08:30:03 PM »

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Matthew and Nacho,

I think anyone that supports the State of Israel unconditionally is anti-Christian.

Anastasios

In one of my post above I stated I don't support either side. My opinion is that we should just let them duke it out and to the victor goes the spoils. I think war in this case is a good way to solve age old problems reak quick.
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« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2005, 08:33:15 PM »



In one of my post above I stated I don't support either side. My opinion is that we should just let them duke it out and to the victor goes the spoils. I think war in this case is a good way to solve age old problems reak quick.

Hello..
the Palestinians are Ill equipped.
we must disarm israel first before letting them fight each other on equal terms
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« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2005, 08:49:23 PM »

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Hello..
the Palestinians are Ill equipped.
we must disarm israel first before letting them fight each other on equal terms

I think I would agree with that also. Both sides should be equally equiped before both sides slug it out. I really have no opinion about either side and could really care less. It's not like I'm ever going to meet an israeli or palestinian anytime soon and I'm tired of hearing about this conflict all the time.
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« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2005, 09:04:01 PM »



Hello..
the Palestinians are Ill equipped.
we must disarm israel first before letting them fight each other on equal terms


Or arm the Palestinians. hehe. It has never been a fair fight, the Israelis have always had more troops, more money more guns more everything. Even in 1948. We were not a goliath and they were not David. We were David. We had combined 28,000 troops, they had 35-6,000 and at the peak of battle had about 96,000. There were just more states on our side. Then, with Palestinians (who never had a real army mind you, thats why we went in for them whih was probably not  good idea anyway) who have rocks, young people with rocks they shoot with tanks or machine guns. When the Palestinians get a bomb or a gun they bring tanks to innocent peoples homes. not to the militants. When Palestinians get a tank will they use their nuclear bomb? Perhaps you are right to disarm the Israelis, but not just them, the Palestinians as well. And put the two oldest/weakest of them to gether so they cannot fight. I see them toake Gaza, West Bank ok, that is of Palestine, they are occupying Palestine. But then they take part of Syria! they take Golan. This is not part ofPalestine, it isSYria. They did not take Egypt or Jordan. They gave back Saini, but they will not give back Golan. It is so unfair. They say they want to live in peace but they still sit in our country with their fat cat settlers. I hate it because then the government justifys occupying Lebanon with it. I mean, why not just sent settlers to parts of Israel and see how they like it? Or take part of their lnd and then give the people there Syrian citizenship. They would nuke us!
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« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2005, 09:20:33 PM »



Or arm the Palestinians. hehe. It has never been a fair fight, the Israelis have always had more troops, more money more guns more everything. Even in 1948. We were not a goliath and they were not David. We were David. We had combined 28,000 troops, they had 35-6,000 and at the peak of battle had about 96,000. There were just more states on our side. Then, with Palestinians (who never had a real army mind you, thats why we went in for them whih was probably not good idea anyway) who have rocks, young people with rocks they shoot with tanks or machine guns. When the Palestinians get a bomb or a gun they bring tanks to innocent peoples homes. not to the militants. When Palestinians get a tank will they use their nuclear bomb? Perhaps you are right to disarm the Israelis, but not just them, the Palestinians as well. And put the two oldest/weakest of them to gether so they cannot fight. I see them toake Gaza, West Bank ok, that is of Palestine, they are occupying Palestine. But then they take part of Syria! they take Golan. This is not part ofPalestine, it isSYria. They did not take Egypt or Jordan. They gave back Saini, but they will not give back Golan. It is so unfair. They say they want to live in peace but they still sit in our country with their fat cat settlers. I hate it because then the government justifys occupying Lebanon with it. I mean, why not just sent settlers to parts of Israel and see how they like it? Or take part of their lnd and then give the people there Syrian citizenship. They would nuke us!

Nod. yeah it wasn't a fair fight.
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« Reply #98 on: February 02, 2005, 09:24:31 PM »

I think Jennifer asked my experience of Jews.
Not very good.
My house on the Island was built by a Iranian Jew, you would think they'd be different from the Euro Jews, NO WAY.
exhorted more money from us, then built a shoddy house. Never put in Central Air Conditioning when it was in the contract, instead told us to pay more. So we still have a shoddily built house. with no Central Air, while this greedy bashtard lives in Great Neck.


 
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« Reply #99 on: February 02, 2005, 09:32:39 PM »

This is a silly reason to dislike Jews, as there are dishonest people in every group.  If you're gonna hate, at least hate better.   
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« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2005, 09:44:16 PM »

who's hating.
I DO hate a shoddily built house that also happens to be built by a Jew. 

Yeah I agree, there are alot of dishonest people. The ethnic group who operates Motels. The ethnic group that operates diners.  The ethnic group that are into criminality, though they pin it on another group..Like jews who are gangsters, but use italians as a cover. yeah..all dishonest.

Oh it's not a silly reason..come over to the "island" sometime, I'll show you.
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« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2005, 10:10:06 PM »

There is a difference between criticizing Israel's policies and believing the nation does not have the right to exist.
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« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2005, 10:26:50 PM »

There is a difference between criticizing Israel's policies and believing the nation does not have the right to exist.

Can't it exist somewhere else?
Like madagascar, maybe?
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« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2005, 10:27:13 PM »

who's hating.
I DO hate a shoddily built house that also happens to be built by a Jew.

Yeah I agree, there are alot of dishonest people. The ethnic group who operates Motels. The ethnic group that operates diners. The ethnic group that are into criminality, though they pin it on another group..Like jews who are gangsters, but use italians as a cover. yeah..all dishonest.

Oh it's not a silly reason..come over to the "island" sometime, I'll show you.

You're nothing but a racist and don't deserve a serious response. 

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« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2005, 10:29:47 PM »



Can't it exist somewhere else?
Like madagascar, maybe?

That would not be the land which God gave to them.
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« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2005, 10:42:41 PM »



since jews killed jesus, I believe that God has turned his back on them. and gone for us Gentiles and Goyim now. Thus we have the Orthodox Church

What's with the corporate guilt? Am I rejected by God, even if I accept his Church, because my bloodline dates back to a tribe which consented to the death of Christ? How about St. Paul, that "Hebrew of Hebrews"? Or, um, the Holy Apostles? Shouldn't they be rejected by God because of their people's mistake?

Jews who reject Christ are outside of God's people simply because they reject Christ HERE and NOW; no more than any other person (whether you're Chinese, Italian, Greek, Arab, or so on) that rejects Christ and His Church HERE and NOW. It has NOTHING to do with the Jewish ethnicity actually being rejected. Christ HIMSELF was of that ethnicity.

The Holy Orthodox Church does NOT consist of (as you said) "us Gentiles" alone. Why assume that you were only speaking to Gentiles? I am not a Gentile. I am Jewish in ethnicity. But I am joining the Orthodox Church. The original Church was founded by a bunch of Jews.

Forgive me, but what a load of crap! And how unbiblical.

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« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2005, 10:57:03 PM »



What's with the corporate guilt? Am I rejected by God, even if I accept his Church, because my bloodline dates back to a tribe which consented to the death of Christ? How about St. Paul, that "Hebrew of Hebrews"? Or, um, the Holy Apostles? Shouldn't they be rejected by God because of their people's mistake?

Jews who reject Christ are outside of God's people simply because they reject Christ HERE and NOW; no more than any other person (whether you're Chinese, Italian, Greek, Arab, or so on) that rejects Christ and His Church HERE and NOW. It has NOTHING to do with the Jewish ethnicity actually being rejected. Christ HIMSELF was of that ethnicity.

The Holy Orthodox Church does NOT consist of (as you said) "us Gentiles" alone. Why assume that you were only speaking to Gentiles? I am not a Gentile. I am Jewish in ethnicity. But I am joining the Orthodox Church. The original Church was founded by a bunch of Jews.

Forgive me, but what a load of crap! And how unbiblical.

Marjorie

yes your saved. Smiley
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« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2005, 11:32:55 PM »

I think Jennifer asked my experience of Jews.
Not very good.
My house on the Island was built by a Iranian Jew, you would think they'd be different from the Euro Jews, NO WAY.
exhorted more money from us, then built a shoddy house. Never put in Central Air Conditioning when it was in the contract, instead told us to pay more. So we still have a shoddily built house. with no Central Air, while this greedy bashtard lives in Great Neck.

Based on these kind of words and your tone in this thread, you've convinced me you're anti-Semitic. And please save the word deconstruction game. Anti-Semitism is a colloquial term for hatred of Jews. True, technically the "n" word means someone who's lazy, but I doubt you have the balls to throw that epithet at blacks in a public forum and then claim you're using the word according to its understood meaning. Sorry, but many of us are old enough to know better.

I think anyone that supports the State of Israel unconditionally is anti-Christian.

Did those guys say they supported the State of Israel "unconditionally?" I support the State of Israel and its right to exist. The term "unconditionally" has nothing to do with the debate, as I don't even support my own government unconditionally. Supporting the Palestinian Authority unconditionally is just as nonsensical, especially considering their theft of Orthodox property and their launching of missiles at Israeli civilians from Orthodox areas knowing full well Israel will fire back into that area, and thusly blame the Christians. They even squatted in the Holy Sepulchre with their weapons, using the Church as a cover while shooting and killing others. By the way, you do know that the Palestinian government forcefully seized ROCOR monastic property and handed it to the MP, yes? HH Alexei II just the other day thanked Abu Mazen for it, to the anger of ROCOR bishops. You also know the PLO targeted and killed Americans in the past? Kinda changes the whole dynamics of the debate...
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« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2005, 11:37:16 PM »



Based on these kind of words and your tone in this thread, you've convinced me you're anti-Semitic.  And please save the word deconstruction game.  Anti-Semitism is a colloquial term for hatred of Jews.  True, technically the "n" word means someone who's lazy, but I doubt you have the balls to throw that epithet at blacks in a public forum and then claim you're using the word according to its understood meaning.  Sorry, but many of us are old enough to know better.



Did those guys say they supported the State of Israel "unconditionally?"  I support the State of Israel and its right to exist.  The term "unconditionally" has nothing to do with the debate, as I don't even support my own government unconditionally.  Supporting the Palestinian Authority unconditionally is just as nonsensical, especially considering their theft of Orthodox property and their launching of missiles at Israeli civilians from Orthodox areas knowing full well Israel will fire back into that area, and thusly blame the Christians.  They even squatted in the Holy Sepulchre with their weapons, using the Church as a cover while shooting and killing others.  By the way, you do know that the Palestinian government forcefully seized ROCOR monastic property and handed it to the MP, yes?  HH Alexei II just the other day thanked Abu Mazen for it, to the anger of ROCOR bishops.  You also know the PLO targeted and killed Americans in the past?  Kinda changes the whole dynamics of the debate...


wait wait WAIT a frellin minute..you mean Niggeredly?

yeah Niggeredly..durr. whats the big frellin deal?

and You don't know me boy. I've thrown that epithet around since Grade school. 
call me whatever PC name you want like anti-semite, in my sphere you don't matter much.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO weeeeeeee I've been called a an anti-semite..yipppe! LOLOLOL

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« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2005, 11:52:25 PM »

I support the State of Israel and its right to exist.  The term "unconditionally" has nothing to do with the debate, as I don't even support my own government unconditionally.  Supporting the Palestinian Authority unconditionally is just as nonsensical, especially considering their theft of Orthodox property and their launching of missiles at Israeli civilians from Orthodox areas knowing full well Israel will fire back into that area, and thusly blame the Christians.

I agree with everything here.

While I may rail against those who want to call the Jewish people "God's chosen people" as is, I think they have a right to at least have a place of their own, since it's clear not a lot of people want them in "their" countries.

However--I don't think they have any sort of "divine right" from the Scriptures or anywhere else to any certain tracts of land in the Mid East, as all of the prophecies given to "Israel" have been transferred to the Church...WE are Israel now, and that word no longer has nothing to do w/who yo' Daddy is, as has been mentioned.

So the Jews' "right to at least have a place of their own" that I mentioned doesn't come from God's direct decree, but does (or should) come perhaps from His common movement within human hearts to show a little compassion, for cryin' out loud.  And yeah, there are other holocausts going on in the world, and I think the tribes in the Sudan need their traditional lands back, too!  All the dispossessed people in Eastern Europe need a place to call their own, too!  EVERYONE needs a place to hang their hat; I think that's just part of being HUMAN.

I also think that's why it's absolutely necessary to work towards a sovereign Palestinian state, as well.  They've been injustly kicked off lands their ancestors had lived in for years and are more than justified in their (seemingly unrequitable) frustration and anger.

Have mercy, Oh Lord upon ALL world rulers, that we may ALL live calm and peaceful lives in all godliness and dignity...
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« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2005, 11:54:42 PM »

I'll state again on the matter, what we need is war and not peace in this conflict. The real problem are the pacifist and other nutty leftist that dictate to both the palestinians and jews that the only way they can solve thier problems is by talking about thier misgivings and problems with each other. Well, we've had decades of the same problems with the same results in that geographic area because of these silly policies that have acomplished nothing. So I say lets give war a chance this time around, not peace.
sarcasm off/ Cheesy

Quote
Did those guys say they supported the State of Israel "unconditionally?" I support the State of Israel and its right to exist. The term "unconditionally" has nothing to do with the debate, as I don't even support my own government unconditionally. Supporting the Palestinian Authority unconditionally is just as nonsensical, especially considering their theft of Orthodox property and their launching of missiles at Israeli civilians from Orthodox areas knowing full well Israel will fire back into that area, and thusly blame the Christians. They even squatted in the Holy Sepulchre with their weapons, using the Church as a cover while shooting and killing others. By the way, you do know that the Palestinian government forcefully seized ROCOR monastic property and handed it to the MP, yes? HH Alexei II just the other day thanked Abu Mazen for it, to the anger of ROCOR bishops. You also know the PLO targeted and killed Americans in the past? Kinda changes the whole dynamics of the debate...

Wow, I didn't know some islamo-fascist had the propensity to destroy and blow up things, that's news to me :-.. I'm not really a supporter of the state of isreal, but I do favor them a little seeing they are one of the few democracy's in that whole region who act in a much more civil manner. I'm sure both Israel and the palestinian fanactics both persecute christians, so in that regard I wouldn't care if both dropped off the face of this earth.


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« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2005, 12:23:02 AM »

Here's an interesting question:

It seems that you're obviously in the military (so was I)....how do you feel about serving for a government with an obvious pro-Zionist stance.

I'm not chiding you....remember, I was in the military too.

How do you feel about living comfortably under and contributing financially (via taxes) to a government with an obvious pro-Zionist stance? Answer that, and you'll probably have an answer similar to anything could come up with for your question.



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« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2005, 12:36:48 AM »

Did those guys say they supported the State of Israel "unconditionally?" I support the State of Israel and its right to exist. The term "unconditionally" has nothing to do with the debate, as I don't even support my own government unconditionally.

I use my words for a reason, and my use of the modifier "unconditionally" was deliberate.

M. made the statement that those who oppose the State of Israel's right to exist are anti-Semitic, and N. agreed. That's a rather extreme statement given that that view has not really been thrown around here except by sdcheung. The majority consenses of the critics of Israel seems to be the feeling that they are wrong but have some right to be there now that they are there. That M. said it only leads me to believe that he was exaggerating in an attempt to provoke.

In the same vein, while no one has said that they support Israel unconditionally (and I did not accuse them of saying that they support Israel unconditionally; if I wanted to accuse them I would by name), but I made a statement on the opposite extreme--on purpose. I do know a great deal of people who do support the State of Israel unconditionally (and I mean that deliberately; there are some who see no wrong in Israel), and my comment was both directed at such people and also meant to be as extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum as M.'s comment to make a point about exaggeration.

For the record, I don't think that denying Israel's right to exist in any way makes one anti-Semitic, and I think to say it does assumes a lot of motive in someone else.

As for the rest of your comments, I suppose they were supposed to provoke me but they didn't. I am not a ROCOR partisan, I don't hate the MP, and that Palestinians have killed Americans doesn't change my mind because Americans have killed Muslims in politically-motivated moves as well.

Anastasios
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« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2005, 12:56:55 AM »

You're nothing but a racist and don't deserve a serious response.

I second that.
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« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2005, 01:31:10 AM »



I second that.

Didn't I just say, that I don't care what you or jennifer says?
You second thrid or fourth whatever you want.
You just prove your both brainwashed people. playing into their hands.

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« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2005, 02:56:50 AM »


That would not be the land which God gave to them.


The Good Lord gives and the Good Lord taketh away. After the events of 70 AD, I think God made it pretty clear that He was taking the land away from them.

John.

Oops. Didn't notice the thread had been locked. Carry on, nothing to see here, move along now.
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