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Apotheoun
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« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2013, 11:57:22 AM »

I used to wonder why directives from the "Magisterium" seem to have replaced liturgical Tradition in the Roman Church, and it was only after becoming Eastern Catholic that I realized that the Vatican I decree was the main contributing factor in the modern approach to Roman Catholic worship.
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« Reply #226 on: August 21, 2013, 12:21:19 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

Not to open the can of worms on the subject matter, but Humanae Vitae is also ex cathedra according to most.

I would argue that many, many more papal pronouncements are ex cathedra because the marker is basically the pope defining something on faith and morals for the universal Church and saying it must be believed. You find the key language in many papal writings. Unfortunately, though, many of these have been contradicted later, so there's an effort to now say they weren't ex cathedra.

I understand, but what I am looking for is the Catholic Church itself accepting something as ex cathedra, not "most" or "many" Catholics.
The Vatican isn't telling.

Thanks, ErmyCath, for answering. Shocked
maybe you should have asked ErmyCath to answer. Tongue
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« Reply #227 on: August 21, 2013, 12:24:06 PM »

All the talk about infallibility is really pointless. So what determines my beliefs? For me it is the liturgy that has primacy, and it even has primacy over the hierarchy of the Church, for the bishops are merely the servants of Christ and the worship of God that He initiated. How do I know that scripture is inspired? I know it because the Church sings the scriptural texts during her worship. Do I look for some infallible list of scripture given by a council or a pope? No. It is enough for me that the texts are chanted during the liturgy. I believe what the Church prays.
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« Reply #228 on: August 21, 2013, 12:26:55 PM »

I am sorry.  You all are so right.  I just found the chapter in the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says no matter what, the Pope is right about everything.  That came from the little known Vatican 1.5.  If he says the Colts are going to win, they better win or be excommunicated.  Crazy me.  Oh, and ex cathedra does actually mean church customs after all, not dogma for morals and faith.  Found that definition in there tucked away in the back, those sneaky heretics.  Even better, just read an article about Keating which said he was actually an atheist and closet homosexual.  Yeah, that was on a homosexual rights page so it must be accurate because they would know. I made all of this up.

Whatever you do, never ever believe a Catholic, especially when they are talking about what the Catholic Church believes.  It’s all lies and conspiracy.

Chill brah!

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. Lumen Gentium Ch. 3, sec. 25

In Christ,
Andrew

How is that any different than the EP or Metropolitan of Russia being adhered to, or any other bishop for that matter?
None of them ever claim to speak infallibly.  

Fantastic.  Has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked, but fantastic anyway.

And, Thanks, Shlomlokh, for answering.
again, maybe you should ask Shlomlokh to answer.  Or better, PM him and not publicly post.

The EP and the Patriarch of Moscow (there is no Metropolitan of Russia, nor has there been for nearly half a millenium) have nothing to do with ex cathedra.  Your confusion of not knowing what anything has to do with anything brought them up.

Perhaps you should first decide what you want to ask, rather than not liking the answers you are getting.
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« Reply #229 on: August 21, 2013, 12:27:36 PM »

All the talk about infallibility is really pointless. So what determines my beliefs? For me it is the liturgy that has primacy, and it even has primacy over the hierarchy of the Church, for the bishops are merely the servants of Christ and the worship of God that He initiated. How do I know that scripture is inspired? I know it because the Church sings the scriptural texts during her worship. Do I look for some infallible list of scripture given by a council or a pope? No. It is enough for me that the texts are chanted during the liturgy. I believe what the Church prays.
THIS
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« Reply #230 on: August 21, 2013, 12:29:03 PM »

You know, as I was reading through this thread again (yes, I know, what was I thinking) it occurred to me there are all types of schisms throughout Christianity as the result of the introduction of something new, taking something out, some sort of change.  If changes resulted in the Great Schism of 1054, i.e., the Roman Church making changes the rest of the Bishops didn’t like, I realized the same view could be had from the Oriental Orthodox.  Changes were being made they didn’t like, thus they remained the same and we are in the changed part.  Why do I bring this up?  Well, for all of our bolstering about how right we are and how wrong everyone else is, maybe the Oriental Orthodox folks have it right and we are all schismatic heretics.  Boggles the mind a bit. Shocked
not really.
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« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2013, 12:30:59 PM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.

Not with "approval from the Church" but with approval from his local bishop. First of all, this bishop might not successfully control what is this Keating guy doing, secondly this bishop himself might not be a good representative of the teachings of the Vatican. That means the fact that some American guy wrote a book doesn't prove anything. He is as authoritative as Peter J here.

Dear Michał and Kerdy,

Not that I wouldn't like to be at the same level as Karl Keating, I'm afraid I have to agree with Kerdy that I am not.

I would however like an answer to my earlier question:

Could you answer this simply and directly? When you said "Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means." which statement of mine were you referring to? I had previously said this:

How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Was it the "Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to." part that you were referring to?

I don't know how to explain the need for an answer to that question without sounding like an anti-rumor After School Special or Barney episode, or whatever ... so I guess I'll just hope that you understand already.

(Or maybe Orthodox don't watch enough Barney growing up.

Just kidding.)
I watched too much Barney after being all growed up: I had hoped he would be extinct when I had kids, but that did not happen.
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« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2013, 12:31:46 PM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.

Not with "approval from the Church" but with approval from his local bishop. First of all, this bishop might not successfully control what is this Keating guy doing, secondly this bishop himself might not be a good representative of the teachings of the Vatican. That means the fact that some American guy wrote a book doesn't prove anything. He is as authoritative as Peter J here.

Dear Michał and Kerdy,

Not that I wouldn't like to be at the same level as Karl Keating, I'm afraid I have to agree with Kerdy that I am not.

I would however like an answer to my earlier question:

Could you answer this simply and directly? When you said "Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means." which statement of mine were you referring to? I had previously said this:

How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Was it the "Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to." part that you were referring to?

I don't know how to explain the need for an answer to that question without sounding like an anti-rumor After School Special or Barney episode, or whatever ... so I guess I'll just hope that you understand already.

(Or maybe Orthodox don't watch enough Barney growing up.

Just kidding.)
The bolded red portion.  When I read it, it sounds as if what you said is the opposite of what Keating said, what the Catholic Church says.  That is why I was asking you what you meant.
Peter J: what is "PI"?
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« Reply #233 on: August 21, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
Not even Ludwig Ott could come up with the number.
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« Reply #234 on: August 21, 2013, 12:42:53 PM »

Quote
Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

The bolded red portion. 

Thank you for answering. And yes, I definitely did mean it. The idea that "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals" is absolutely, flat-out crazy (not like the far more subtle idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to -- although I also regard as wrong). And, as I said before, it is a blatant misrepresentation of Vatican I, because Vatican I explicitly stated what ex cathedra means:

Quote
... ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church ...

I don't want to analyze those conditions right now, but clearly Vatican I said that a papal statement is ex cathedra if it satisfies all of those conditions, not if it satisfies just one of them.

Alas!  The devil is in the details, as you can never show the (not just "a") accepted definition of all those "conditions."  For example, why do the letters of Pope Hormisdas, in support of Monotheletism and condemned as such by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, not meet the "conditions"-other than they espouse heresy?

Ah, PI means "Papal Infallibility."  I prefer to focus on PA.
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« Reply #235 on: August 21, 2013, 12:44:07 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
It really is not known who many "definitive" decrees have been made, although Bishop Gasser said that ". . . thousands and thousands of dogmatic decrees have gone forth from the Apostolic See." I do know that Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone both rejected the idea that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an ex cathedra statement.
Yet they will point out that Cardinal Ratzinger, but not Pope Benedict XVI, rejected the idea.
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« Reply #236 on: August 21, 2013, 12:44:51 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
I'm working on it, but I'm not really sure how to find the answer or where to start, so it may take me awhile.  Someone has to have that info.
That is a faith statement, not born out by the facts.

Any list of ex cathedra statements, unless the list were issued by a Pope as itself an ex cathedra decree, and clearly indicated to be a decree of that type, would merely be a matter of opinion on the part of the author of the list.
Exactly, which is why PA mandates tautology.
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« Reply #237 on: August 21, 2013, 12:48:40 PM »

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Yes, that is a consequence of papal authority. Papal supremacy is not to be equated with papal infallibility, however. The point is that the Roman faithful owe the bishops in general and the bishop of Rome in particular a certain measure of obedience, even when they do not speak ex cathedra. The issue of episcopal and papal authority is not as black-and-white as some would like to suggest; it's not either 'infallible' or 'ignore at will'.
Of course not: that would interfere with casting the aura of infallibility over their supreme pontiff's every word and action.

Apotheoum words that differently, but I think we are thinking the same thing:
Peter J,

Even changes in canon law would not solve the problem of determining which papal statements are ex cathedra and which are not, and - quite honestly - I think the Vatican bureaucracy wants to keep things vague.

God bless,
Todd
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« Reply #238 on: August 21, 2013, 12:51:12 PM »

There is no list of papal "ex cathedra" decrees. While working on my MA I wrote a paper in defense of the Roman doctrine of the Magisterium (n.b., I was a Roman Catholic at the time), and I never found any definitive list. In fact, no such list exists.
Very true. Although theorectically a highly ultra-montane Pope could add a line to canon law "All Catholics must acknowledge that Blank, Blank, and Blank were issued ex cathedra by the respective popes who issued them. Catholics who do not so acknowledge will be subject to excommunication." (Not that I expect anything remotely like that to happen in ten-thousand years; just trying to illustrate.)
He could do that, but that act itself would not be infallible,

Certainly. It's like Scott Hahn said, while on his way to Catholicism (paraphrasing): With regard to the bible, all we have is a fallible list of infallible books. I would add to that, a fallible list of infallible councils.
Actually, according to you all, he can't say that ever since Trent.
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« Reply #239 on: August 21, 2013, 02:47:27 PM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.

Not with "approval from the Church" but with approval from his local bishop. First of all, this bishop might not successfully control what is this Keating guy doing, secondly this bishop himself might not be a good representative of the teachings of the Vatican. That means the fact that some American guy wrote a book doesn't prove anything. He is as authoritative as Peter J here.

Dear Michał and Kerdy,

Not that I wouldn't like to be at the same level as Karl Keating, I'm afraid I have to agree with Kerdy that I am not.

I would however like an answer to my earlier question:

Could you answer this simply and directly? When you said "Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means." which statement of mine were you referring to? I had previously said this:

How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Was it the "Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to." part that you were referring to?

I don't know how to explain the need for an answer to that question without sounding like an anti-rumor After School Special or Barney episode, or whatever ... so I guess I'll just hope that you understand already.

(Or maybe Orthodox don't watch enough Barney growing up.

Just kidding.)
The bolded red portion.  When I read it, it sounds as if what you said is the opposite of what Keating said, what the Catholic Church says.  That is why I was asking you what you meant.
Peter J: what is "PI"?

In this case, papal infallibility.
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« Reply #240 on: August 21, 2013, 02:57:13 PM »

Quote
Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

The bolded red portion. 

Thank you for answering. And yes, I definitely did mean it. The idea that "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals" is absolutely, flat-out crazy (not like the far more subtle idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to -- although I also regard as wrong). And, as I said before, it is a blatant misrepresentation of Vatican I, because Vatican I explicitly stated what ex cathedra means:

Quote
... ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church ...

I don't want to analyze those conditions right now, but clearly Vatican I said that a papal statement is ex cathedra if it satisfies all of those conditions, not if it satisfies just one of them.

Alas!  The devil is in the details, as you can never show the (not just "a") accepted definition of all those "conditions." 

In a way that's true; but then again, any time something is defined, someone could ask for a definition of the words used in the definition.

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
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« Reply #241 on: August 21, 2013, 03:05:01 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
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« Reply #242 on: August 21, 2013, 03:12:04 PM »

When I read it, it sounds as if what you said is the opposite of what Keating said, what the Catholic Church says.

Is this Keating a pope?
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« Reply #243 on: August 21, 2013, 06:54:19 PM »

I appreciate those who are actually contributing to the content of ex cathedra and my OP. 
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« Reply #244 on: August 21, 2013, 06:55:58 PM »

I appreciate those who are actually contributing to the content of ex cathedra and my OP. 
Ditto. I have found this thread enlightening and entertaining at the same time.
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« Reply #245 on: August 21, 2013, 08:46:56 PM »

Quote
Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

The bolded red portion. 

Thank you for answering. And yes, I definitely did mean it. The idea that "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals" is absolutely, flat-out crazy (not like the far more subtle idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to -- although I also regard as wrong). And, as I said before, it is a blatant misrepresentation of Vatican I, because Vatican I explicitly stated what ex cathedra means:

Quote
... ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church ...

I don't want to analyze those conditions right now, but clearly Vatican I said that a papal statement is ex cathedra if it satisfies all of those conditions, not if it satisfies just one of them.

Alas!  The devil is in the details, as you can never show the (not just "a") accepted definition of all those "conditions." 

In a way that's true; but then again, any time something is defined, someone could ask for a definition of the words used in the definition.

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
Not really.  It seems quite clear that Pastor Aeternus was worded as vaguely as possible for the maximum effect its Supreme Pontiff Pius wanted.
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« Reply #246 on: August 21, 2013, 09:24:23 PM »

Not really.  It seems quite clear that Pastor Aeternus was worded as vaguely as possible for the maximum effect its Supreme Pontiff Pius wanted.

Glancing quickly over this, I did a double take: I wondered if you really wrote "...for the maximum effect its Supreme Pontius Pilate wanted."  That's what happens when you eat salad for dinner.   
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« Reply #247 on: August 21, 2013, 09:39:45 PM »

Not really.  It seems quite clear that Pastor Aeternus was worded as vaguely as possible for the maximum effect its Supreme Pontiff Pius wanted.

Glancing quickly over this, I did a double take: I wondered if you really wrote "...for the maximum effect its Supreme Pontius Pilate wanted."  That's what happens when you eat salad for dinner.   
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« Reply #248 on: August 21, 2013, 09:50:14 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
Karl Keating is my Pope.
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« Reply #249 on: August 21, 2013, 09:50:54 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
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I will keep you in my prayers. Cheesy
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« Reply #250 on: August 21, 2013, 09:51:36 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
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« Reply #251 on: August 21, 2013, 09:52:58 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
Karl Keating is my Pope.
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« Reply #252 on: August 21, 2013, 09:54:35 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
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I think Cardinal Burke would be a more forceful pope.
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« Reply #253 on: August 21, 2013, 09:55:39 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
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I think Cardinal Burke would be a more forceful pope.
In all seriousness, I would love it if Cardinal Burke were to become Pope.
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« Reply #254 on: August 21, 2013, 10:02:02 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy
Karl Keating is my Pope.
I will keep you in my prayers. Cheesy
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I think Cardinal Burke would be a more forceful pope.
In all seriousness, I would love it if Cardinal Burke were to become Pope.
I can only say that during the last conclave my prayers went unanswered.
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« Reply #255 on: August 21, 2013, 10:09:58 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy

Fair enough. I'm not going to suggest that you should care what he thinks. I'm only saying that I don't want a rumor like that started, regardless whether it's about me or about Keating (or both).
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« Reply #256 on: August 21, 2013, 10:16:49 PM »

In any case, I think there's a danger of this thread starting a rumor that Karl Keating believes that only one of the three conditions (namely, faith and morals) is needed for a papal statement to be ex cathedra. I trust you can see how large of a departure from Vatican I that would be.
I doubt that is a major concern to most readers of this thread. Personally I don't care what Karl Keating thinks about papal infallibility. Cheesy

Fair enough. I'm not going to suggest that you should care what he thinks. I'm only saying that I don't want a rumor like that started, regardless whether it's about me or about Keating (or both).
Fair enough. Although I doubt that any rumor will start because of this thread. Cheesy
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« Reply #257 on: August 21, 2013, 10:21:24 PM »

Fair enough. Although I doubt that any rumor will start because of this thread. Cheesy

Or has it already?
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« Reply #258 on: August 21, 2013, 10:35:59 PM »

Fair enough. Although I doubt that any rumor will start because of this thread. Cheesy

Or has it already?
Really? A rumor? And I missed it.
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« Reply #259 on: August 22, 2013, 03:04:30 PM »

Sorry I was away for a few days: I came back and noticed that stuff I had written was being quoted and all heck broke loose...

Anyway, if Ott doesn't have the answer to the number of ex cathedra pronouncements, I'm sure there is no set definition.

From a practical standpoint, I can say that I never encountered this as an issue until I saw posters here point out that there was no such list. Armed with that question, it does seem strange.

I was taught the following were ex cathedra during my catechesis: the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, and Humane Vitae on artificial birth control. I've also been taught later that Ordination Sacerdotales should be included  as well.
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« Reply #260 on: November 26, 2013, 09:40:57 AM »

Wow, this thread really got off-topic early.

I don't think there's a consensus, especially when you consider that some Roman Catholic groups think the seat has been vacant for decades.  Lips Sealed

Sedevacantists are not Roman Catholics.



Yes, they are. Robert Bellermine, Cajetan and a host of others stated that a pope who became a heretic would cease to be the pope. No official proclamation needs to be made since he loses the office automatically. Sedevacantism is a valid opinion given the current state of things in the roman church.



not according to your Pastor Aeternus.  According to him, your supreme pontiff is not and cannot be judged by anyone.
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« Reply #261 on: November 26, 2013, 09:41:58 AM »

The Orthodox have been sedevacantists for a thousand years. If people want the real deal, they need to join the Society of St. Pius I, the only pious Pius.
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The Orthodox have been sedevacantists for a thousand years. If people want the real deal, they need to join the Society of St. Pius I, the only pious Pius.
And the Orthodox are Catholic.
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« Reply #262 on: November 26, 2013, 09:48:01 AM »

Wow, this thread really got off-topic early.

I don't think there's a consensus, especially when you consider that some Roman Catholic groups think the seat has been vacant for decades.  Lips Sealed

Sedevacantists are not Roman Catholics.

Yes, they are. Robert Bellermine, Cajetan and a host of others stated that a pope who became a heretic would cease to be the pope. No official proclamation needs to be made since he loses the office automatically. Sedevacantism is a valid opinion given the current state of things in the roman church.

I wasn't aware of Cajetan specifically, but I knew that Robert Bellermine and many others taught that a pope who became a heretic would cease to be the pope. I doesn't affect my statement however: Sedevacantists are not Roman Catholics.

What are they? What dogma do they deny which denies them the title: Roman Catholic?

They are Sedevacantist, plain and simple.

They broke communion with the Holy See. Can anyone to claim to be part of a church when not in union with its bishop and the other bishops in unity with the one bishop they are all in communion with? (Unity of Faith, St.Cyprian answers this)
If a bishop publicly preaches heresy, it is the duty of every Christian not to accept communion with that bishop. Of course, the Sedevacantists take this a step further and claim that any pope who preaches heresy ceases to be a pope, and that all of the popes since <insert Pope here> (they can't agree on which pope it is), has been an anti-pope.

You are correct. It's really quite simple, as far as the sedevacantist argument goes. You can't be the head of something you are not even a member of. Since the post Vatican 2 popes have publicly professed heresy (according to sedevacantists) they aren't even Catholic.....let alone the head of the Church.
unfortunately for them, since according to their rules only a college of cardinals can make a supreme pontiff, and only a supreme pontiff can make a cardinal, and all of them are dead now, and "the post Vatican 2 popes" are the ones they chose when alive, that just leaves the SV forever headless
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« Reply #263 on: November 26, 2013, 09:50:28 AM »

But of course many on this site will root for them because " of my enemy..."

Oh, I don't know.  I think sedevacantists embrace "Orthodox" ecclesiological principles to advance their arguments, but they are still fundamentally Roman Catholic.  That they believe the Pope to be a heretic and therefore not a Pope doesn't change the fact that they would only recognise as a Roman Catholic (and thus a member of the "true Church") someone who believes many of the things we reject as heterodox innovations(e.g., papal infallibility, Filioque, etc.).  To use your analogy, the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy, and in an ideological sense perhaps moreso than the current crop of "legitimate" RC's.    
Actually, as the SV's position leaves them headless forever and hence proving Pastor Aeternus forever false, they are their own worse enemy.
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