OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 03, 2014, 12:52:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ex cathedra  (Read 9232 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #180 on: August 20, 2013, 09:54:13 PM »

I am sorry.  You all are so right.  I just found the chapter in the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says no matter what, the Pope is right about everything.  That came from the little known Vatican 1.5.  If he says the Colts are going to win, they better win or be excommunicated.  Crazy me.  Oh, and ex cathedra does actually mean church customs after all, not dogma for morals and faith.  Found that definition in there tucked away in the back, those sneaky heretics.  Even better, just read an article about Keating which said he was actually an atheist and closet homosexual.  Yeah, that was on a homosexual rights page so it must be accurate because they would know. I made all of this up.

Whatever you do, never ever believe a Catholic, especially when they are talking about what the Catholic Church believes.  It’s all lies and conspiracy.

Chill brah!

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. Lumen Gentium Ch. 3, sec. 25

In Christ,
Andrew

How is that any different than the EP or Metropolitan of Russia being adhered to, or any other bishop for that matter?  He is the Bishop of Rome.  Of course they should listen to him, but that doesn't mean everything is ex cathedra, as some people pretend it means.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:54:53 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #181 on: August 20, 2013, 09:57:59 PM »

Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.
So, are you going to actually answer my questions or ignore them?  Ignoring seems to be the popular reaction here.  Ignore questions but demand yours be answered.  You seem happy to tell me I am wrong, but yet have done nothing to show how or where and all I have done is repeated Mr. Keating.  So, if you disagree with what I said, you disagree with him.  If you disagree with him, you apparently disagree with the Roman Catholic Church as they allow him to instruct their priests.  So, how about it.  Answer or ignore?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:59:03 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #182 on: August 20, 2013, 10:02:51 PM »

So, unless you're just trying to be dismissive, please tell me what led you to think/suppose/guess, or whatever, that I "disagree with ... the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means."  Huh

Bump.

You do know what a question is, yes?  As in, not an accusation...  As in, two you didn't answer.

Sorry, I don't understand that response. Could you answer this simply and directly? When you said "Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means." which statement of mine were you referring to? I had previously said this:

How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Was it the "Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to." part that you were referring to?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #183 on: August 20, 2013, 10:07:46 PM »

You shall not defy the Kerd Almighty.

ERMAHKERD!!
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #184 on: August 20, 2013, 10:07:55 PM »

Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.
So, are you going to actually answer my questions or ignore them?  

Huh Do you have a question for me? If it's a question about Karl Keating, then you should probably ask Karl Keating.

Ignoring seems to be the popular reaction here.  Ignore questions but demand yours be answered.  You seem happy to tell me I am wrong, but yet have done nothing to show how or where and all I have done is repeated Mr. Keating.  So, if you disagree with what I said, you disagree with him.  If you disagree with him, you apparently disagree with the Roman Catholic Church as they allow him to instruct their priests.  So, how about it.  Answer or ignore?

Again here, I don't know which statement you're referring to.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:10:36 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #185 on: August 20, 2013, 10:09:26 PM »

Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.
So, are you going to actually answer my questions or ignore them?  

Huh Do you have a question for me? If it's a question about Karl Keating, then you should probably ask Karl Keating.

Ignoring seems to be the popular reaction here.  Ignore questions but demand yours be answered.  You seem happy to tell me I am wrong, but yet have done nothing to show how or where and all I have done is repeated Mr. Keating.  So, if you disagree with what I said, you disagree with him.  If you disagree with him, you apparently disagree with the Roman Catholic Church as they allow him to instruct their priests.  So, how about it.  Answer or ignore?

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Gotcha, games.  Good on ya.  Don't worry about it.  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:13:06 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #186 on: August 20, 2013, 11:00:35 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #187 on: August 20, 2013, 11:02:39 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

Not to open the can of worms on the subject matter, but Humanae Vitae is also ex cathedra according to most.

I would argue that many, many more papal pronouncements are ex cathedra because the marker is basically the pope defining something on faith and morals for the universal Church and saying it must be believed. You find the key language in many papal writings. Unfortunately, though, many of these have been contradicted later, so there's an effort to now say they weren't ex cathedra.

I understand, but what I am looking for is the Catholic Church itself accepting something as ex cathedra, not "most" or "many" Catholics.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #188 on: August 20, 2013, 11:03:51 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?

I'm not sure about the pope having declared papal infallibility ex cathedra. This dogma was declared by the First Vatican Council, which defined (and circumscribed) infallibility of papal declarations in such way, that quite a bit of debate is possible over which statements share in the ex cathedra infallibility. I think the Assumption of Mary is at present the only truly undisputable instance of the pope speaking ex cathedra. The Immaculate Conception is also widely accepted as such. Personally, I agree with Papist that John Paul II phrased his teaching on female ordination so as to meet the requirements for infallibility set out by Vatican I.

Thank you!
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #189 on: August 20, 2013, 11:07:21 PM »

I think the idea is that they can become "real" cardinals by renouncing V2.

For quite a few sedevacantists, the problem is even more serious. After Vatican II, the ritual of the sacrament of ordination has been changed. According to some (if not many) sedevacantists, this rendered the sacrament of orders invalid (not just illicit) - meaning an increasing number of Roman Catholic priests and bishops are supposedly invalidly ordained. This cannot be 'healed' by the bishop renouncing Vatican 2, for that would not render the ordination retroactively valid. The issue is not just that the bishops hold a wrong theology, but that true apostolic succession is (allegedly) disappearing from the Roman Catholic Church.

Good point. The fact that sedevacantists are so hung up on papal infallibility as to deny a pope is a real pope instead of coming to the much more logical conclusion that the pope isn't infallible is amazing to me. It's all the more amazing because many of them seem to be very educated and logical people with good hearts.

You absolutely nailed it here. I am a member of another Catholic forum and keep up on the convos regarding these issues. It seems that so many will make peace with contradiction but suggest to them that perhaps Orthodoxy is the Truth or that the Roman church erred and you will be shown the door. No amount of historical or theological evidence will sway those who don't want to face reality. I actually had a sedevacantist tell me not to trust my logic but simply accept the mysterious eclipse of the roman church as a precursor to some grand restoration.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
How would (or could) the Roman Church fix this [problem]?
I'm sorry....I  think I may have misunderstood what you are asking.

Scrapping Vatican II and the new mass would be a good start.

I have heard many Catholics, to include younger Catholics, suggest this very thing.

EDIT:  I shouldn't have said many, instead I should have said many of the Catholics I personally know.

I have learned Vatican I and Vatican II are not in contradiction to one another, so I am unsure how scrapping Vatican II would help.  How do you think it would help.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #190 on: August 20, 2013, 11:30:46 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

Not to open the can of worms on the subject matter, but Humanae Vitae is also ex cathedra according to most.

I would argue that many, many more papal pronouncements are ex cathedra because the marker is basically the pope defining something on faith and morals for the universal Church and saying it must be believed. You find the key language in many papal writings. Unfortunately, though, many of these have been contradicted later, so there's an effort to now say they weren't ex cathedra.

I understand, but what I am looking for is the Catholic Church itself accepting something as ex cathedra, not "most" or "many" Catholics.
The Vatican isn't telling.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #191 on: August 20, 2013, 11:34:46 PM »

I am sorry.  You all are so right.  I just found the chapter in the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says no matter what, the Pope is right about everything.  That came from the little known Vatican 1.5.  If he says the Colts are going to win, they better win or be excommunicated.  Crazy me.  Oh, and ex cathedra does actually mean church customs after all, not dogma for morals and faith.  Found that definition in there tucked away in the back, those sneaky heretics.  Even better, just read an article about Keating which said he was actually an atheist and closet homosexual.  Yeah, that was on a homosexual rights page so it must be accurate because they would know. I made all of this up.

Whatever you do, never ever believe a Catholic, especially when they are talking about what the Catholic Church believes.  It’s all lies and conspiracy.

Chill brah!

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. Lumen Gentium Ch. 3, sec. 25

In Christ,
Andrew

How is that any different than the EP or Metropolitan of Russia being adhered to, or any other bishop for that matter?
None of them ever claim to speak infallibly.  The Vatican claims it can, and therefor insists to be obeyed as if it is, even when it isn't.

That, of course, is made easier by the fact that the Vatican won't tell when it is speaking "ex cathedra" or not.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #192 on: August 20, 2013, 11:37:09 PM »

Fact remains, they can't agree among themselves what they mean,

Are we still talking about Catholics or did we start talking about Orthodox?
WE know what we mean, and we mean what we say when we say that we agree that the Vatican does not speak infallibly.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #193 on: August 20, 2013, 11:41:57 PM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

Not to open the can of worms on the subject matter, but Humanae Vitae is also ex cathedra according to most.

I would argue that many, many more papal pronouncements are ex cathedra because the marker is basically the pope defining something on faith and morals for the universal Church and saying it must be believed. You find the key language in many papal writings. Unfortunately, though, many of these have been contradicted later, so there's an effort to now say they weren't ex cathedra.

I understand, but what I am looking for is the Catholic Church itself accepting something as ex cathedra, not "most" or "many" Catholics.
The Vatican isn't telling.

Thanks, ErmyCath, for answering. Shocked
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #194 on: August 20, 2013, 11:44:31 PM »

Fact remains, they can't agree among themselves what they mean,

Are we still talking about Catholics or did we start talking about Orthodox?
WE know what we mean, and we mean what we say when we say that we agree that the Vatican does not speak infallibly.

That is really cute and all, but your verbal assault on them for the bolded above seems to fit this forum perfectly.  Splinter, meet plank.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #195 on: August 20, 2013, 11:45:14 PM »

I am sorry.  You all are so right.  I just found the chapter in the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says no matter what, the Pope is right about everything.  That came from the little known Vatican 1.5.  If he says the Colts are going to win, they better win or be excommunicated.  Crazy me.  Oh, and ex cathedra does actually mean church customs after all, not dogma for morals and faith.  Found that definition in there tucked away in the back, those sneaky heretics.  Even better, just read an article about Keating which said he was actually an atheist and closet homosexual.  Yeah, that was on a homosexual rights page so it must be accurate because they would know. I made all of this up.

Whatever you do, never ever believe a Catholic, especially when they are talking about what the Catholic Church believes.  It’s all lies and conspiracy.

Chill brah!

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. Lumen Gentium Ch. 3, sec. 25

In Christ,
Andrew

How is that any different than the EP or Metropolitan of Russia being adhered to, or any other bishop for that matter?
None of them ever claim to speak infallibly.  

Fantastic.  Has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked, but fantastic anyway.

And, Thanks, Shlomlokh, for answering.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:47:33 PM by Kerdy » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #196 on: August 20, 2013, 11:52:03 PM »

If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
If you did, its pretty obvious you didn't digest the information.  Its not that difficult of a book to understand, but I suppose that wouldn't fit into an anti-Catholic offensive philosophy.
I find critical reading a necessary skill.  If I was swayed by everything I read, I'd be hopelessly dizzy.

You can digest something without swallowing it.

You know what is Catholic and anti-Catholic?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #197 on: August 20, 2013, 11:55:16 PM »

If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
If you did, its pretty obvious you didn't digest the information.  Its not that difficult of a book to understand, but I suppose that wouldn't fit into an anti-Catholic offensive philosophy.
I find critical reading a necessary skill.

I encourage you to develop that skill.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:55:36 PM by Kerdy » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #198 on: August 21, 2013, 12:07:23 AM »

If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
If you did, its pretty obvious you didn't digest the information.  Its not that difficult of a book to understand, but I suppose that wouldn't fit into an anti-Catholic offensive philosophy.
I find critical reading a necessary skill.

I encourage you to develop that skill.
LOL.  One can read our posts and see who needs to develop that skill-if not be introduced to it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #199 on: August 21, 2013, 12:08:49 AM »

If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
If you did, its pretty obvious you didn't digest the information.  Its not that difficult of a book to understand, but I suppose that wouldn't fit into an anti-Catholic offensive philosophy.
I find critical reading a necessary skill.

I encourage you to develop that skill.
LOL.  One can read our posts and see who needs to develop that skill-if not be introduced to it.

Yes, but I didn't want to embarrass you.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #200 on: August 21, 2013, 12:09:29 AM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #201 on: August 21, 2013, 12:09:45 AM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

Not to open the can of worms on the subject matter, but Humanae Vitae is also ex cathedra according to most.

I would argue that many, many more papal pronouncements are ex cathedra because the marker is basically the pope defining something on faith and morals for the universal Church and saying it must be believed. You find the key language in many papal writings. Unfortunately, though, many of these have been contradicted later, so there's an effort to now say they weren't ex cathedra.

I understand, but what I am looking for is the Catholic Church itself accepting something as ex cathedra, not "most" or "many" Catholics.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #202 on: August 21, 2013, 12:10:14 AM »

I think the idea is that they can become "real" cardinals by renouncing V2.

For quite a few sedevacantists, the problem is even more serious. After Vatican II, the ritual of the sacrament of ordination has been changed. According to some (if not many) sedevacantists, this rendered the sacrament of orders invalid (not just illicit) - meaning an increasing number of Roman Catholic priests and bishops are supposedly invalidly ordained. This cannot be 'healed' by the bishop renouncing Vatican 2, for that would not render the ordination retroactively valid. The issue is not just that the bishops hold a wrong theology, but that true apostolic succession is (allegedly) disappearing from the Roman Catholic Church.

Good point. The fact that sedevacantists are so hung up on papal infallibility as to deny a pope is a real pope instead of coming to the much more logical conclusion that the pope isn't infallible is amazing to me. It's all the more amazing because many of them seem to be very educated and logical people with good hearts.

You absolutely nailed it here. I am a member of another Catholic forum and keep up on the convos regarding these issues. It seems that so many will make peace with contradiction but suggest to them that perhaps Orthodoxy is the Truth or that the Roman church erred and you will be shown the door. No amount of historical or theological evidence will sway those who don't want to face reality. I actually had a sedevacantist tell me not to trust my logic but simply accept the mysterious eclipse of the roman church as a precursor to some grand restoration.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
How would (or could) the Roman Church fix this [problem]?
I'm sorry....I  think I may have misunderstood what you are asking.

Scrapping Vatican II and the new mass would be a good start.


I have learned Vatican I and Vatican II are not in contradiction to one another, so I am unsure how scrapping Vatican II would help.  How do you think it would help?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 12:11:48 AM by Kerdy » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #203 on: August 21, 2013, 12:59:09 AM »

If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
If you did, its pretty obvious you didn't digest the information.  Its not that difficult of a book to understand, but I suppose that wouldn't fit into an anti-Catholic offensive philosophy.
I find critical reading a necessary skill.

I encourage you to develop that skill.
LOL.  One can read our posts and see who needs to develop that skill-if not be introduced to it.

Yes, but I didn't want to embarrass you.
Don't worry.  You won't.

Speaking of reading skills, I've already answered your question
what I am looking for is the Catholic Church itself accepting something as ex cathedra, not "most" or "many" Catholics.
Apotheoun gave you the correct answer.  You may not like the answer, and the followers of the Vatican might deny the answer, but that doesn't change the truth, that it is the answer to your question. Munticentissimus Deus, the declaration on the Assumption (i.e. today), is the only one they agree on.

Somewhere here we went into some detail about the different calculations of various theologians and apologists for the Vatican over how many times their supreme pontiffs have spoken "ex cathedra."
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:04:18 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2013, 01:18:46 AM »

Deleted.  It isn't worth wasting my time over.  I will just wait for knowledgeable persons to reply.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:22:09 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #205 on: August 21, 2013, 04:41:22 AM »

You know, as I was reading through this thread again (yes, I know, what was I thinking) it occurred to me there are all types of schisms throughout Christianity as the result of the introduction of something new, taking something out, some sort of change.  If changes resulted in the Great Schism of 1054, i.e., the Roman Church making changes the rest of the Bishops didn’t like, I realized the same view could be had from the Oriental Orthodox.  Changes were being made they didn’t like, thus they remained the same and we are in the changed part.  Why do I bring this up?  Well, for all of our bolstering about how right we are and how wrong everyone else is, maybe the Oriental Orthodox folks have it right and we are all schismatic heretics.  Boggles the mind a bit. Shocked
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #206 on: August 21, 2013, 05:00:23 AM »

So, if you disagree with what I said, you disagree with him.  If you disagree with him, you apparently disagree with the Roman Catholic Church as they allow him to instruct their priests.

It isn't that simple.

Well, for all of our bolstering about how right we are and how wrong everyone else is, maybe the Oriental Orthodox folks have it right and we are all schismatic heretics.  Boggles the mind a bit. Shocked

Yes! Let they take you, go ahead!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:01:38 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #207 on: August 21, 2013, 05:04:01 AM »


It isn't that simple.


Actually, it is.


Yes! Let they take you, go ahead!
Missing the point, yet again. laugh
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #208 on: August 21, 2013, 05:17:14 AM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A Roman Catholic man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:33:29 AM by Kerdy » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #209 on: August 21, 2013, 05:35:51 AM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.

Not with "approval from the Church" but with approval from his local bishop. First of all, this bishop might not successfully control what is this Keating guy doing, secondly this bishop himself might not be a good representative of the teachings of the Vatican. That means the fact that some American guy wrote a book doesn't prove anything. He is as authoritative as Peter J here.


Yes! Let they take you, go ahead!
Missing the point, yet again. laugh

So I have to close the bottle? Sigh...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:36:47 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #210 on: August 21, 2013, 07:27:15 AM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.

Not with "approval from the Church" but with approval from his local bishop. First of all, this bishop might not successfully control what is this Keating guy doing, secondly this bishop himself might not be a good representative of the teachings of the Vatican. That means the fact that some American guy wrote a book doesn't prove anything. He is as authoritative as Peter J here.

Dear Michał and Kerdy,

Not that I wouldn't like to be at the same level as Karl Keating, I'm afraid I have to agree with Kerdy that I am not.

I would however like an answer to my earlier question:

Could you answer this simply and directly? When you said "Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means." which statement of mine were you referring to? I had previously said this:

How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Was it the "Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to." part that you were referring to?

I don't know how to explain the need for an answer to that question without sounding like an anti-rumor After School Special or Barney episode, or whatever ... so I guess I'll just hope that you understand already.

(Or maybe Orthodox don't watch enough Barney growing up.

Just kidding.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #211 on: August 21, 2013, 07:41:21 AM »

It isn't that simple.

Actually, you are correct.  It isn’t simple at all.  A man named Keating (and there are others in the same boat who say the same stuff he does), with the authorization and approval of the Roman Catholic Church, teaches and writes books on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes, instructs priests on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes doesn’t know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes…but we do, even though we are disagreeing on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches/believes and we aren’t Roman Catholic.  

Yep, all kinds of complicated.

Not with "approval from the Church" but with approval from his local bishop. First of all, this bishop might not successfully control what is this Keating guy doing, secondly this bishop himself might not be a good representative of the teachings of the Vatican. That means the fact that some American guy wrote a book doesn't prove anything. He is as authoritative as Peter J here.

Dear Michał and Kerdy,

Not that I wouldn't like to be at the same level as Karl Keating, I'm afraid I have to agree with Kerdy that I am not.

I would however like an answer to my earlier question:

Could you answer this simply and directly? When you said "Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means." which statement of mine were you referring to? I had previously said this:

How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Was it the "Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to." part that you were referring to?

I don't know how to explain the need for an answer to that question without sounding like an anti-rumor After School Special or Barney episode, or whatever ... so I guess I'll just hope that you understand already.

(Or maybe Orthodox don't watch enough Barney growing up.

Just kidding.)
The bolded red portion.  When I read it, it sounds as if what you said is the opposite of what Keating said, what the Catholic Church says.  That is why I was asking you what you meant.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,189


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #212 on: August 21, 2013, 08:33:31 AM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #213 on: August 21, 2013, 08:41:10 AM »

Quote
Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

The bolded red portion. 

Thank you for answering. And yes, I definitely did mean it. The idea that "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals" is absolutely, flat-out crazy (not like the far more subtle idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to -- although I also regard as wrong). And, as I said before, it is a blatant misrepresentation of Vatican I, because Vatican I explicitly stated what ex cathedra means:

Quote
... ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church ...

I don't want to analyze those conditions right now, but clearly Vatican I said that a papal statement is ex cathedra if it satisfies all of those conditions, not if it satisfies just one of them.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #214 on: August 21, 2013, 08:42:44 AM »

P.S. As for your questions about Karl Keating, I can't really say. But I would assume that he reads Vatican I as quoted above -- it's hard for me to imagine that reads it like this:

Quote
... ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals ...

(Seems like there is, once again, a danger here that rumors could be started.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #215 on: August 21, 2013, 10:10:08 AM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
It really is not known who many "definitive" decrees have been made, although Bishop Gasser said that ". . . thousands and thousands of dogmatic decrees have gone forth from the Apostolic See." I do know that Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone both rejected the idea that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an ex cathedra statement.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:11:57 AM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #216 on: August 21, 2013, 10:12:52 AM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
I'm working on it, but I'm not really sure how to find the answer or where to start, so it may take me awhile.  Someone has to have that info.
Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #217 on: August 21, 2013, 10:14:42 AM »

Any list of ex cathedra statements, unless the list were issued by a Pope as itself an ex cathedra decree, and clearly indicated to be a decree of that type, would merely be a matter of opinion on the part of the author of the list.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:16:26 AM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #218 on: August 21, 2013, 10:21:47 AM »

From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
It seems that Pope John Paul II did when he said that the Church cannot ordain women.

So, four?


I honestly don't know the exact number. It might take a little research to find out.
I'm working on it, but I'm not really sure how to find the answer or where to start, so it may take me awhile.  Someone has to have that info.
There is no list of papal "ex cathedra" decrees. While working on my MA I wrote a paper in defense of the Roman doctrine of the Magisterium (n.b., I was a Roman Catholic at the time), and I never found any definitive list. In fact, no such list exists.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:23:13 AM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #219 on: August 21, 2013, 10:47:13 AM »

There is no list of papal "ex cathedra" decrees. While working on my MA I wrote a paper in defense of the Roman doctrine of the Magisterium (n.b., I was a Roman Catholic at the time), and I never found any definitive list. In fact, no such list exists.

Very true. Although theorectically a highly ultra-montane Pope could add a line to canon law "All Catholics must acknowledge that Blank, Blank, and Blank were issued ex cathedra by the respective popes who issued them. Catholics who do not so acknowledge will be subject to excommunication." (Not that I expect anything remotely like that to happen in ten-thousand years; just trying to illustrate.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Eurasian
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2013, 11:01:22 AM »

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Yes, that is a consequence of papal authority. Papal supremacy is not to be equated with papal infallibility, however. The point is that the Roman faithful owe the bishops in general and the bishop of Rome in particular a certain measure of obedience, even when they do not speak ex cathedra. The issue of episcopal and papal authority is not as black-and-white as some would like to suggest; it's not either 'infallible' or 'ignore at will'.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:01:45 AM by Eurasian » Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2013, 11:10:23 AM »

There is no list of papal "ex cathedra" decrees. While working on my MA I wrote a paper in defense of the Roman doctrine of the Magisterium (n.b., I was a Roman Catholic at the time), and I never found any definitive list. In fact, no such list exists.
Very true. Although theorectically a highly ultra-montane Pope could add a line to canon law "All Catholics must acknowledge that Blank, Blank, and Blank were issued ex cathedra by the respective popes who issued them. Catholics who do not so acknowledge will be subject to excommunication." (Not that I expect anything remotely like that to happen in ten-thousand years; just trying to illustrate.)
He could do that, but that act itself would not be infallible, and so it would still leave the definitive nature of the decrees listed questionable. The Vatican I teaching on papal infallibility really solved no problems, and actually created new ones.

Postscript: The Roman Church has already written its canon law in a way that involves the excommunication of anyone who denies a definitive teaching, but it simultaneously refuses to say what is definitively taught.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:12:30 AM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2013, 11:15:14 AM »

Peter J,

Even changes in canon law would not solve the problem of determining which papal statements are ex cathedra and which are not, and - quite honestly - I think the Vatican bureaucracy wants to keep things vague.

God bless,
Todd
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:18:24 AM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2013, 11:47:11 AM »

There is no list of papal "ex cathedra" decrees. While working on my MA I wrote a paper in defense of the Roman doctrine of the Magisterium (n.b., I was a Roman Catholic at the time), and I never found any definitive list. In fact, no such list exists.
Very true. Although theorectically a highly ultra-montane Pope could add a line to canon law "All Catholics must acknowledge that Blank, Blank, and Blank were issued ex cathedra by the respective popes who issued them. Catholics who do not so acknowledge will be subject to excommunication." (Not that I expect anything remotely like that to happen in ten-thousand years; just trying to illustrate.)
He could do that, but that act itself would not be infallible,

Certainly. It's like Scott Hahn said, while on his way to Catholicism (paraphrasing): With regard to the bible, all we have is a fallible list of infallible books. I would add to that, a fallible list of infallible councils.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2013, 11:49:56 AM »

There is no list of papal "ex cathedra" decrees. While working on my MA I wrote a paper in defense of the Roman doctrine of the Magisterium (n.b., I was a Roman Catholic at the time), and I never found any definitive list. In fact, no such list exists.
Very true. Although theorectically a highly ultra-montane Pope could add a line to canon law "All Catholics must acknowledge that Blank, Blank, and Blank were issued ex cathedra by the respective popes who issued them. Catholics who do not so acknowledge will be subject to excommunication." (Not that I expect anything remotely like that to happen in ten-thousand years; just trying to illustrate.)
He could do that, but that act itself would not be infallible,

Certainly. It's like Scott Hahn said, while on his way to Catholicism (paraphrasing): With regard to the bible, all we have is a fallible list of infallible books. I would add to that, a fallible list of infallible councils.
An excellent statement by Prof. Hahn, and one that proves that the whole idea of papal infallibility is useless. If a man cannot know which statements of the pope are infallible and which are not infallible it really makes the whole idea of ex cathedra statement pointless. How can a man have certitude when he cannot know definitively which statements are infallible.

It is all hokum as Dr. Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory would say.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:52:36 AM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.188 seconds with 72 queries.