Author Topic: Ex cathedra  (Read 25689 times)

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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #135 on: August 20, 2013, 05:23:02 AM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Condescension and sarcasm, with $8.00 gets you a cup of coffee.  Crazy what one finds when one researches.  I picked this book up from the library because of this and one other thread.  A lot of "he said, she said" going on and frankly, I'm a little sick of it.  So, go to an accepted source.

Quote
The Pope is infallible, but he isn’t a know-it-all.  His charism of infallibility, which he enjoys as the successor to Peter, is strictly limited.  Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”  So states Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.  Note the limitation: Papal infallibility extends only to matters of faith or morals-not to Church customs, not to sports, not to literature, not to most things of everyday life.  And infallibility comes into play only when the pope “proclaims by a definitive act.”  This means, a formal, public statement.  An offhand comment over lunch doesn’t count.

By the way, infallibility isn’t limited to the pope or to papal decrees.  The bishops, when united with the pope in an ecumenical council, also teach infallibly on matters of faith or morals…Many councils have issued disciplinary decrees also, but those decrees are not infallible because they do not concern directly matters of faith or morals.

…The pope and the bishops don’t have to meet in a council to teach without error.  The Holy Spirit guarantees they will teach truly whenever they reiterate what the Church always has taught.  The Church always has taught the historical reality of the resurrection, for example, and an individual bishop teaches infallibly when he reiterates this teaching.

What Catholics Really Believe (52 Answers to Common Misconceptions About the Catholic Faith) – Karl Keating, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1992, Pg 14-15

http://www.amazon.com/Catholics-Really-Believe-Setting-Record-Straight/dp/0898705533

It also explains the difference between matters of faith/morals and customs. Start with page 13.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 05:42:25 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #136 on: August 20, 2013, 05:42:40 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2013, 05:45:56 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope's ability to declare ex cathedra, not the Orthodox Church.  No, I have no reason to believe the Patriarchate of Constantinople has anything to do with Vatican I or Vatican II.  If you have a specific letter you are talking about, you will need to be more specific, but I doubt I can answer that question completely.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 05:47:14 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2013, 05:47:06 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope's ability to declare ex cathedra, not the Orthodox Church.  No, I have no reason to believe the Patriarchate of Constantinople has anything to do with Vatican I or Vatican II.

I was talking about Pope Honorius' doctrinal letter to the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the 7th century.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 05:47:15 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #139 on: August 20, 2013, 05:47:37 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope's ability to declare ex cathedra, not the Orthodox Church.  No, I have no reason to believe the Patriarchate of Constantinople has anything to do with Vatican I or Vatican II.

I was talking about Pope Honorius' doctrinal letter to the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the 7th century.

Way before Vatican I and II.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #140 on: August 20, 2013, 05:48:38 AM »
If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2013, 05:49:40 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope's ability to declare ex cathedra, not the Orthodox Church.  No, I have no reason to believe the Patriarchate of Constantinople has anything to do with Vatican I or Vatican II.

I was talking about Pope Honorius' doctrinal letter to the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the 7th century.

Way before Vatican I and II.

Do the Roman Catholics teach that the Pope became infallible in 1870?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 05:49:48 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #142 on: August 20, 2013, 05:51:27 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope's ability to declare ex cathedra, not the Orthodox Church.  No, I have no reason to believe the Patriarchate of Constantinople has anything to do with Vatican I or Vatican II.

I was talking about Pope Honorius' doctrinal letter to the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the 7th century.

Way before Vatican I and II.

Do the Roman Catholics teach that the Pope became infallible in 1870?
You will need to ask a Catholic and actually accept what they say.  I also checked out the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but its thick.  If I find an answer there (may be awhile) I will let you know.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 05:51:42 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #143 on: August 20, 2013, 06:09:58 AM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2013, 07:05:42 AM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Are you saying Karl Keating is incorrect? 

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2013, 07:24:50 AM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Are you saying Karl Keating is incorrect? 

Well of course. All of my posts are about Karl Keating.

;)

Just kidding. Who's Karl Keating?
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #146 on: August 20, 2013, 07:30:52 AM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Are you saying Karl Keating is incorrect? 

Well of course. All of my posts are about Karl Keating.

;)

Just kidding. Who's Karl Keating?

Reply #135

The late Cardinal John O'Connor seemed to like and agree with his book in that post as well as Dogmatic Constitution on the Church in relation to Papal Infallibility and ex cathedra.

Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means. Maybe I did not read your post properly. ???

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #147 on: August 20, 2013, 08:44:29 AM »
Maybe I did not read your post properly. ???

Well, I really can't say what you read or didn't read in my post. (But I'm not too concerned about it.) Is there a specific part that you are referring to?
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #148 on: August 20, 2013, 09:30:06 AM »
Maybe I did not read your post properly. ???

Well, I really can't say what you read or didn't read in my post. (But I'm not too concerned about it.) Is there a specific part that you are referring to?
Don't worry about it.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #149 on: August 20, 2013, 09:40:31 AM »
Maybe I did not read your post properly. ???

Well, I really can't say what you read or didn't read in my post. (But I'm not too concerned about it.) Is there a specific part that you are referring to?
Don't worry about it.

Maybe "But I'm not too concerned about it" wasn't the best choice of words. I do care, if it leads you to make public statements about me like this:

Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means.

So, unless you're just trying to be dismissive, please tell me what led you to think/suppose/guess, or whatever, that I "disagree with ... the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means."  ???
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #150 on: August 20, 2013, 09:53:36 AM »
I'm not Catholic and never have been
Your avatar says GOA?  It's its in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
but even I am understanding the basic premise of ex cathedra.  Every word out of the Popes mouth is not considered ex cathedra.  Unless you consider, "I don't like lemon in my water" as an infallible statement.  What ex cathedra statements did Pope Leo IX declare which a later Pope stated was wrong or he later declared wrong?  And if you really want to get silly, wouldn't the declaration against the use of icons and then later acceptance be sort of the same thing?
No, and to even suggest it suggest a lack of understanding.

"I like filioque in my creed."  Ex Cathedra for you?  Pope Leo III didn't, and put up the unadulterated Creed on the doors of St. Peter's (and on the shrine of St. Paul-Outside-the-Walls) to underline it, but Pope Leo IX (btw, I specifically said he overturned a previous pope's decision. Do read) sent Card. Umberto to threaten us with anathema for removing it(!).

Not every is considered ex cathedra is quite meaningless when 1) they can't tell us which out of his mouth is ex cathedra, and 2) Lumen Gentium mandates that they give the same "submission of mind and will" to their pontiff when he isn't speaking ex cathedra.

As for the silly comparison on the icons, plenty of iconodules opposed the iconclasts every step of the way.  The iconoclast council, for instance, is known as the "headless council" because no primate attended.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #151 on: August 20, 2013, 10:01:11 AM »
I'm not Catholic and never have been
Your avatar says GOA?  It's its in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
but even I am understanding the basic premise of ex cathedra.  Every word out of the Popes mouth is not considered ex cathedra.  Unless you consider, "I don't like lemon in my water" as an infallible statement.  What ex cathedra statements did Pope Leo IX declare which a later Pope stated was wrong or he later declared wrong?  And if you really want to get silly, wouldn't the declaration against the use of icons and then later acceptance be sort of the same thing?
No, and to even suggest it suggest a lack of understanding.

"I like filioque in my creed."  Ex Cathedra for you?  Pope Leo III didn't, and put up the unadulterated Creed on the doors of St. Peter's (and on the shrine of St. Paul-Outside-the-Walls) to underline it, but Pope Leo IX (btw, I specifically said he overturned a previous pope's decision. Do read) sent Card. Umberto to threaten us with anathema for removing it(!).

Not every is considered ex cathedra is quite meaningless when 1) they can't tell us which out of his mouth is ex cathedra, and 2) Lumen Gentium mandates that they give the same "submission of mind and will" to their pontiff when he isn't speaking ex cathedra.

As for the silly comparison on the icons, plenty of iconodules opposed the iconclasts every step of the way.  The iconoclast council, for instance, is known as the "headless council" because no primate attended.
I don't think ex cathedra means what you think it means.  In fact, according to the ones who use it, I know it doesn't mean what you think it means.  But hey, they're all just a bunch of crazy Catholics, right?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:03:12 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #152 on: August 20, 2013, 10:04:07 AM »
If you're going to argue against something, at least know what you're arguing against.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #153 on: August 20, 2013, 10:07:22 AM »
From what I can find, the Pope has spoken in ex cathedra three times.  Once for Papal Infallability, once for Immaculate Conception and he Assumption of Mary.  Is this correct?
Disregard (as if it hadn't been already) this question.  Got research material to study it myself.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #154 on: August 20, 2013, 10:08:56 AM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Condescension and sarcasm, with $8.00 gets you a cup of coffee.  Crazy what one finds when one researches.  I picked this book up from the library because of this and one other thread.  A lot of "he said, she said" going on and frankly, I'm a little sick of it.  So, go to an accepted source.
Accepted by whom?  Even the Ultramontanists do not agree.
Quote
The Pope is infallible, but he isn’t a know-it-all.  His charism of infallibility, which he enjoys as the successor to Peter, is strictly limited.  Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”  So states Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.  Note the limitation: Papal infallibility extends only to matters of faith or morals-not to Church customs, not to sports, not to literature, not to most things of everyday life.  And infallibility comes into play only when the pope “proclaims by a definitive act.”  This means, a formal, public statement.  An offhand comment over lunch doesn’t count.
from that Dogmatic Constitution of the Church
Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra [emphasis added]; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
not so limited.

Quote
By the way, infallibility isn’t limited to the pope or to papal decrees.  The bishops, when united with the pope in an ecumenical council, also teach infallibly on matters of faith or morals…Many councils have issued disciplinary decrees also, but those decrees are not infallible because they do not concern directly matters of faith or morals.
from the same source:
Quote
The College, which does not exist without the head, is said "to exist also as the subject of supreme and full power in the universal Church." This must be admitted of necessity so that the fullness of power belonging to the Roman Pontiff is not called into question. For the College, always and of necessity, includes its head, because in the college he preserves unhindered his function as Christ's Vicar and as Pastor of the universal Church. In other words, it is not a distinction between the Roman Pontiff and the bishops taken collectively, but a distinction between the Roman Pontiff taken separately and the Roman Pontiff together with the bishops. Since the Supreme Pontiff is head of the College, he alone is able to perform certain actions which are not at all within the competence of the bishops, e.g., convoking the College and directing it, approving norms of action, etc. Cf. Modus 81. It is up to the judgment of the Supreme Pontiff, to whose care Christ's whole flock has been entrusted, to determine, according to the needs of the Church as they change over the course of centuries, the way in which this care may best be exercised—whether in a personal or a collegial way. The Roman Pontiff, taking account of the Church's welfare, proceeds according to his own discretion in arranging, promoting and approving the exercise of collegial activity.
As Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff can always exercise his power at will, as his very office demands. Though it is always in existence, the College is not as a result permanently engaged in strictly collegial activity; the Church's Tradition makes this clear. In other words, the College is not always "fully active [in actu pleno]"; rather, it acts as a college in the strict sense only from time to time and only with the consent of its head. The phrase "with the consent of its head" is used to avoid the idea of dependence on some kind of outsider; the term "consent" suggests rather communion between the head and the members, and implies the need for an act which belongs properly to the competence of the head. This is explicitly affirmed in n. 22, 12, and is explained at the end of that section. The word "only" takes in all cases. It is evident from this that the norms approved by the supreme authority must always be observed. Cf. Modus 84.
It is clear throughout that it is a question of the bishops acting in conjunction with their head, never of the bishops acting independently of the Pope.
Sooooo, such distinctions are made by the Vatican without a difference.
Quote
…The pope and the bishops don’t have to meet in a council to teach without error.  The Holy Spirit guarantees they will teach truly whenever they reiterate what the Church always has taught.  The Church always has taught the historical reality of the resurrection, for example, and an individual bishop teaches infallibly when he reiterates this teaching.
So yet again, ex cathedra is meaningless, as they supposedly don't have to do so to "teach without error.

Glad that was cleared up ::)
What Catholics Really Believe (52 Answers to Common Misconceptions About the Catholic Faith) – Karl Keating, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1992, Pg 14-15
http://www.amazon.com/Catholics-Really-Believe-Setting-Record-Straight/dp/0898705533
oh, there is no shortage within the Vatican's present communion who don't believe what Mr. Keating (the one behind "Catholic Answers"-we have some threads on them) believes, let alone with Ultramontanism's past.
It also explains the difference between matters of faith/morals and customs. Start with page 13.
Does he dare venture into history?

Btw, does his book have an imprematur?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:10:46 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #155 on: August 20, 2013, 10:11:40 AM »
If you're going to argue against something, at least know what you're arguing against.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #156 on: August 20, 2013, 10:13:18 AM »
I'm not Catholic and never have been
Your avatar says GOA?  It's its in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
but even I am understanding the basic premise of ex cathedra.  Every word out of the Popes mouth is not considered ex cathedra.  Unless you consider, "I don't like lemon in my water" as an infallible statement.  What ex cathedra statements did Pope Leo IX declare which a later Pope stated was wrong or he later declared wrong?  And if you really want to get silly, wouldn't the declaration against the use of icons and then later acceptance be sort of the same thing?
No, and to even suggest it suggest a lack of understanding.

"I like filioque in my creed."  Ex Cathedra for you?  Pope Leo III didn't, and put up the unadulterated Creed on the doors of St. Peter's (and on the shrine of St. Paul-Outside-the-Walls) to underline it, but Pope Leo IX (btw, I specifically said he overturned a previous pope's decision. Do read) sent Card. Umberto to threaten us with anathema for removing it(!).

Not every is considered ex cathedra is quite meaningless when 1) they can't tell us which out of his mouth is ex cathedra, and 2) Lumen Gentium mandates that they give the same "submission of mind and will" to their pontiff when he isn't speaking ex cathedra.

As for the silly comparison on the icons, plenty of iconodules opposed the iconclasts every step of the way.  The iconoclast council, for instance, is known as the "headless council" because no primate attended.
I don't think ex cathedra means what you think it means.  In fact, according to the ones who use it, I know it doesn't mean what you think it means.  But hey, they're all just a bunch of crazy Catholics, right?
no, a bunch of Ultramontanist apologists.

Fact remains, they can't agree among themselves what they mean, all the while claiming we suffer from some deficiency from lacking it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #157 on: August 20, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »
If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #158 on: August 20, 2013, 10:20:25 AM »
Vatican I taught and Vatican II reaffirmed that the pope teaches infallibly when “he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.”

Too vague. Do doctrinal letters to the Patriarchate of Constantinople count?

We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope's ability to declare ex cathedra, not the Orthodox Church.  No, I have no reason to believe the Patriarchate of Constantinople has anything to do with Vatican I or Vatican II.  If you have a specific letter you are talking about, you will need to be more specific, but I doubt I can answer that question completely.
How about the letter of the author of Pastor Aeternus to the Patriarch of Constantinople and the rest of the episcopate of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (or rather, their Orthodox flock)?
Quote
The Epistle to the Easterns is an apostolic letter sent by Pope Pius IX in 1848 to the bishops and clergy of the Orthodox Churches not in full Communion with the Pope, urging them to resume such Communion.
The Epistle is the first of a series of apostolic letters and encyclicals published by Pius IX defining the terms and conditions for a reunification between the Roman Church and the Orthodox Churches, after the Great Schism of 1054. The Pope's attitudes were later confirmed by the First Vatican Council, over which he presided.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Easterns
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:23:08 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #159 on: August 20, 2013, 10:22:04 AM »
Do you happen to have an English or a Latin version of the Epistle to the Easterns? I've never been able to find it.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #160 on: August 20, 2013, 10:27:16 AM »
I'm not Catholic and never have been

I just wanted to quote ^^ this again for isa's benefit, in case he has gotten the idea in his head that you're a representative of Catholicism.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #161 on: August 20, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
... supposedly don't have to do so to "teach without error."

Ah, now you're starting to catch on. :)

oh, there is no shortage within the Vatican's present communion who don't believe what Mr. Keating (the one behind "Catholic Answers"-we have some threads on them) believes,

I'm afraid I really couldn't tell you, since I don't know what Keating teaches and don't have any expectation of finding out. (At the risk of stating the obvious, my earlier question "Who's Karl Keating?" was semi-rhetorical, i.e. "Why would we discuss him?", not that I never heard of him before.)
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Offline ialmisry

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« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:55:52 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2013, 10:59:11 AM »
Many thanks!

The book has an interesting title, though :)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:59:47 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #164 on: August 20, 2013, 08:43:48 PM »
Fact remains, they can't agree among themselves what they mean,

Are we still talking about Catholics or did we start talking about Orthodox?

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #165 on: August 20, 2013, 08:45:14 PM »
If you go to the link on Amazon, you can actually read several pages, of which I mentioned, there for free.
You assUme we haven't read the book.
If you did, its pretty obvious you didn't digest the information.  Its not that difficult of a book to understand, but I suppose that wouldn't fit into an anti-Catholic offensive philosophy.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #166 on: August 20, 2013, 08:47:00 PM »
I'm not Catholic and never have been

I just wanted to quote ^^ this again for isa's benefit, in case he has gotten the idea in his head that you're a representative of Catholicism.

I am not.  I let Catholics speak for themselves.  Its their Church, they probably know what they mean when they say something better than we know what they mean when they say something.  But lets not let that get in the way of a good fight.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #167 on: August 20, 2013, 08:49:45 PM »
... supposedly don't have to do so to "teach without error."

Ah, now you're starting to catch on. :)

oh, there is no shortage within the Vatican's present communion who don't believe what Mr. Keating (the one behind "Catholic Answers"-we have some threads on them) believes,

I'm afraid I really couldn't tell you, since I don't know what Keating teaches and don't have any expectation of finding out. (At the risk of stating the obvious, my earlier question "Who's Karl Keating?" was semi-rhetorical, i.e. "Why would we discuss him?", not that I never heard of him before.)
He's pretty well known in Catholic circles as an educator and apologist.  I haven’t heard anyone so far say anything negative about him other than he should be a little harder on people who ignore what Catholics say rather than what they think they are saying.

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #168 on: August 20, 2013, 08:55:14 PM »
I am sorry.  You all are so right.  I just found the chapter in the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says no matter what, the Pope is right about everything.  That came from the little known Vatican 1.5.  If he says the Colts are going to win, they better win or be excommunicated.  Crazy me.  Oh, and ex cathedra does actually mean church customs after all, not dogma for morals and faith.  Found that definition in there tucked away in the back, those sneaky heretics.  Even better, just read an article about Keating which said he was actually an atheist and closet homosexual.  Yeah, that was on a homosexual rights page so it must be accurate because they would know. I made all of this up.

Whatever you do, never ever believe a Catholic, especially when they are talking about what the Catholic Church believes.  It’s all lies and conspiracy.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 08:57:25 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #169 on: August 20, 2013, 09:07:17 PM »
So, unless you're just trying to be dismissive, please tell me what led you to think/suppose/guess, or whatever, that I "disagree with ... the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means."  ???

Bump.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #170 on: August 20, 2013, 09:08:30 PM »
I let Catholics speak for themselves. 

Yeah, you've been doing a great job of that.  ::)
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #171 on: August 20, 2013, 09:16:07 PM »
I let Catholics speak for themselves. 

Yeah, you've been doing a great job of that. 

I know I have.  I use their words and explanations.  Their words and explanations.  ::)

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #172 on: August 20, 2013, 09:18:54 PM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Are you saying Karl Keating is incorrect? 

Bump

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #173 on: August 20, 2013, 09:19:10 PM »
How is declaration ex cathedra different from the normal one? The popes puts some special clothes on, does it on precised day or something?

Well sarcasm aside, you make a good point. Many Catholics have the idea that the pope can "turn on" papal infallibility whenever he wants to. (I'm reminded of the old joke that the pope should have stationary with I infallibly declare ...)

Note: I'm not even talking about the ones who blatantly misrepresent PI, a la "The pope is infallible when he speaks on faith and morals." That's just crazy.

Are you saying Karl Keating is incorrect? 

Well of course. All of my posts are about Karl Keating.

;)

Just kidding. Who's Karl Keating?

Reply #135

The late Cardinal John O'Connor seemed to like and agree with his book in that post as well as Dogmatic Constitution on the Church in relation to Papal Infallibility and ex cathedra.

Unless I misunderstood, it sounds as if you disagree with the author, the Cardinal, and the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means. Maybe I did not read your post properly. ???
Bump

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #174 on: August 20, 2013, 09:20:17 PM »
So, unless you're just trying to be dismissive, please tell me what led you to think/suppose/guess, or whatever, that I "disagree with ... the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church means."  ???

Bump.

You do know what a question is, yes?  As in, not an accusation...  As in, two you didn't answer.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:20:46 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #175 on: August 20, 2013, 09:41:14 PM »
Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.
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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #176 on: August 20, 2013, 09:42:23 PM »
Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.

You shall not defy the Kerd Almighty. You shall be stoned and burned and all sorts of other stuff.  :P
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #177 on: August 20, 2013, 09:49:41 PM »
I am sorry.  You all are so right.  I just found the chapter in the back of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says no matter what, the Pope is right about everything.  That came from the little known Vatican 1.5.  If he says the Colts are going to win, they better win or be excommunicated.  Crazy me.  Oh, and ex cathedra does actually mean church customs after all, not dogma for morals and faith.  Found that definition in there tucked away in the back, those sneaky heretics.  Even better, just read an article about Keating which said he was actually an atheist and closet homosexual.  Yeah, that was on a homosexual rights page so it must be accurate because they would know. I made all of this up.

Whatever you do, never ever believe a Catholic, especially when they are talking about what the Catholic Church believes.  It’s all lies and conspiracy.

Chill brah!

But seriously. Have you ever read Lumen Gentium? It more or less states that the word of the pope is to be adhered to regardless of it being ex cathedra.

Quote
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. Lumen Gentium Ch. 3, sec. 25

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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #178 on: August 20, 2013, 09:51:58 PM »
Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.

You aren't Roman Catholic.  Your Church is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, but it isn't the same thing.  There is no "we" in the strictest sense.  If there were, you should agree with your apologists who are respected and accepted throughout the Roman Catholic Church and are instructors of priests. 

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ex cathedra
« Reply #179 on: August 20, 2013, 09:52:28 PM »
Kerdy, if this is what you call letting us speak for ourselves, then I'm starting to thinking that I would prefer it if you would not let us speak for ourselves.

You shall not defy the Kerd Almighty. You shall be stoned and burned and all sorts of other stuff.  :P

Don't judge me!