Vain Repetitions

[Asteriktos]

In Orthodoxy we sometimes do things like say "Lord Have Mercy" 40 times. In most churches I've been in, they jumble the words together to the point where it sounds like one big long humming sound or something. Is this vain and repetitive? If not, why not? None of the standard apologetics about why Orthodox/Catholic prayers are not vain repetitions seem to apply here.

[idontlikenames]

Well, even an Evangelical/Fundamentalist would encourage you to pray for something every day (Parable of the widow and the unjust judge, etc.).  If you can pray the same prayer every 24 hours, then why not every 20 hours, then why not every 5 hours, then why not every 5 minutes, seconds, etc., etc....?  Where does one draw the line between being "vain and repetitious" and just being "persistent"?  Any line becomes quite arbitrary.

[Twenty Nine]

Hi Justin --

I have thought about this also. I once visited a church where the 40 Lord Have Mercy were said very, very quickly. On the surface it seems pretty ridiculous: saying Lord Have Mercy as fast as possible without seeming to really mean it.

On the other hand, there is a liturgical rhythm to it, just like the rest of the prayers that we pray. Also, when we beg for forgiveness or mercy from someone, we tend to ask quickly and repeatedly.

Just some thoughts.

Gregory

[Fr. David]

I actually like the 40 reps.  It sort of feels like one reeeeeeeeeally long "Lord have mercy."  Gets me in the groove of it.

Someone did, though, ask me this quesiton once.  I just said that I pray 33 Jesus Prayers--I guess the 40 LHMs could be subbed here--because I only really start to mean it around number 27 or so.

[Mor Ephrem]

It's one thing to repeat "Kyrie eleison" forty times.  This can be done in a way that is not slow, paced, and rhythmic.  What Paradosis is describing ("one big long humming sound") is, IMO, doing it just for the sake of doing it, to get it over with so that we can go to the next part of the Liturgy.  I've heard it, and it's annoying to say the least.  Better to cut it down and mean it than to do it so fast that you mock God (whether or not this is the intention, this is what it does, IMO). 

[Asteriktos]

I appreciate what you guys are saying. Unfortunately (as with Mor Ephrem), I still find myself having difficulty with it.

[icxn]

The vanity is not in the repetition but in what and in what manner is repeated.

____________
Pray without ceasing. (1 Thes. 5:17)

[Schultz]

I see where Paradosis is coming from.  There are lots of times where I feel exactly how he's describing he feels, that the repetitive LHM becomes just one long "hummmmmmmm".  I prefer the LHM with a prostration each time, as it forces you to stop and "mean it", so to speak, because of the physical action involved.  I find I "mean it" by the third or fourth one from the beginning, as opposed to the third or fourth one from the end.

But that's just me.

[Elisha]

[shameless plug]http://orthotracts.org/music/25Track25.wma[/shameless plug]

[Fr. David]

Hmm...yeah, I can definitely see the point you're making, Paradosis...it's one thing to repeat...quite another to repeat with no apparent sincerety or deliberateness...

[Donna Rose]

i think, for me, the way i battle this difficulty is to listen very very closely to the words. this forces me to pray along, so to speak, even if only in my head (i.e. w/o speech). if the words are utterly inaudible, i usually then say em on my own at my own pace (often w/ a prayer rope of my own) until the next part of the service comes, much like Phil says: better to say less of em and mean em than to say the full 40 as an unintelligible mush. but if it is even remotely audible, then i like to keep pace because, as Pedro said, it puts one's (my) mind into a rhythm (getting into "the groove" hehe) that becomes fruitful for prayer, if that makes sense.

[observer]

  Of course we should pray with understanding, but often this means according to human logic and not understanding with the heart. I find the rapid repetition not vain but helpful.  I prefer rapidity to its extreme opposite - lugubriousness.

[Matthew777]

What about Way of a Pilgrim? He says the Jesus Prayer 3,000 times!

[Tallitot]

What about saying the 40 LHM's during vespers in diff languages, and/or splitting them between more then one person? At my parish we rotate the 40 between 4 of us, sometimes one will use English, one Greek , one Slavonic, one Spanish. Helps keep it form becoming monotonous.                         

[Fr. David]

What about saying the 40 LHM's during vespers in diff languages, and/or splitting them between more then one person? At my parish we rotate the 40 between 4 of us, sometimes one will use English, one Greek , one Slavonic, one Spanish. Helps keep it form becoming monotonous.

Spanish?!  Hey, cool! :thumbsup:  Where do you attend?

[choirfiend]

Which link on the tracts page is that file, Elisha?

[Orthodoxy]

In Orthodoxy we sometimes do things like say "Lord Have Mercy" 40 times. In most churches I've been in, they jumble the words together to the point where it sounds like one big long humming sound or something. Is this vain and repetitive? If not, why not? None of the standard apologetics about why Orthodox/Catholic prayers are not vain repetitions seem to apply here.

The issue is "vain" repetition not repetition. It is the reformist prayer to change everyone else to their version of Jesus Christ that is vain repetition. The prayer that say "Lord I need $50" or "Lord My SUV wont start" those are vain. The prayer of the pharisee seen in the heterodox world that says " Lord please help this guy over there to see things my way". That is vain repetition.

Asking God to be merciful is not vain repetition certainly not in the Orthodox Church where we pray for all mankind then say Lord have mercy 40 lousy times!

Think about this my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Orthodox prayer of "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" is all one will be able to say at the judgement seat. No excuses. No Complaint. Just God have mercy on me a sinner. It is practice for the eternal event.

Lord have mercy

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

[Mor Ephrem]

Think about this my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Orthodox prayer of "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" is all one will be able to say at the judgement seat. No excuses. No Complaint. Just God have mercy on me a sinner. It is practice for the eternal event.

Yeah, but you won't be saying it so fast even He can't make sense of it.   

[Ian Lazarus]

Think about this my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Orthodox prayer of "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" is all one will be able to say at the judgement seat. No excuses. No Complaint. Just God have mercy on me a sinner. It is practice for the eternal event.

It is why its called "the prayer of the heart".  It is to stick to you until it becomes part of your inner being, like breath, so you dont go without asking for mercy a single second of the day.  "For we sinners devoid of all defesnse entreat thy rich mercy"

May God have mercy and save us all.

Ian Lazarus :grommit: 

[maximus]

In Orthodoxy we sometimes do things like say "Lord Have Mercy" 40 times. In most churches I've been in, they jumble the words together to the point where it sounds like one big long humming sound or something. Is this vain and repetitive? If not, why not? None of the standard apologetics about why Orthodox/Catholic prayers are not vain repetitions seem to apply here.

I don't know about people jumbling up the words, but something can only be vain repetition if there's no significant purpose in the repetition. However, I don't think that's the case in a 40x 'Lord Have Mercy'.

Usually the number forty is symbolic of time spent in the wilderness (Israel, Jesus), and I think that's the case here. I suppose there are different forms of significance you could derive from the number. Possibly, though, it would make sense to think of it as a recognition of our alienation in a worldly wilderness apart from God. Then the forty-fold repetition of 'Lord Have Mercy', together with signifying what 'Lord Have Mercy' signifies normally, here designates our corporate and individual intention, desire and prayer to remain faithful to God through and to the end of the time of the wilderness of our present life.

M

[stanley123]

In Orthodoxy we sometimes do things like say "Lord Have Mercy" 40 times. In most churches I've been in, they jumble the words together to the point where it sounds like one big long humming sound or something. Is this vain and repetitive? If not, why not? None of the standard apologetics about why Orthodox/Catholic prayers are not vain repetitions seem to apply here.

Maybe it qualifies as a repetition but it is not vain and the prayer is not in vain.

[zekarja]

He is what St John Chrysostom says on this topic:

...by this topic He dissuades them; calling frivolousness, here, by the name of “vain repetition:” as when we ask of God things unsuitable, kingdoms, and glory, and to get the better of enemies, and abundance of wealth, and in general what does not at all concern us. “For He knoweth,” saith He, “what things ye have need of.” And herewith He seems to me to command in this place, that neither should we make our prayers long; long, I mean, not in time, but in the number and length of the things mentioned. For perseverance indeed in the same requests is our duty: His word being, “continuing instant in prayer.” [...] “For He knoweth,” saith He, “what things ye have need of.” And if He know, one may say, what we have need of, wherefore must we pray? Not to instruct Him, but to prevail with Him; to be made intimate with Him, by continuance in supplication; to be humbled; to be reminded of thy sins.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.XIX.html

[Seraphim98]

The problem, insofar as there is a problem is either with the one praying or the one listening…or both.

Of course the words should really mean something…but if they don't is that the fault of the words, or of the one praying.

We must remember not everyone is at the same place on the path of prayer as others.

We all begin with but the prayer of our lips…not much but something.

As Elder Cleopas said, there is still prayer of the mind and prayer of the heart, each leading to the next.

If we ourselves are enrobed in the prayer meaningfully, knowing the words ourselves, knowing what they point to ourselves, then the "hum" of another's mere prayer of the lips should not distract us from our deeper and richer prayer. 

And if not, then we can accuse ourselves and beg mercy on the one who reads. "Lord have mercy on me a sinner. Lord have mercy on Thy servant"…and lo and behold, we mean it this time. We have not prayed vainly…at least once. And even the dear humming reader is not forgotten, for his manner of prayer opened our eyes to our own need of repentance, and he will not lose his reward either.

[William]

Is this passage applicable to the topic of repetition in prayer?

Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”
Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
-St. Luke 18:1-8

[Thomas]

Vain repetions are when you pray by rote and not by meaning----do you really mean "lord have mercy" on the prayers being read, if so you are not quilty of vain repetitons---if you do not mean it then you may be guilty of vain repetions.

Thomas

[Volnutt]

Vain repetions are when you pray by rote and not by meaning----do you really mean "lord have mercy" on the prayers being read, if so you are not quilty of vain repetitons---if you do not mean it then you may be guilty of vain repetions.

Thomas

I don't think humans have the cognitive swiftness to rattle off 40 prayers in rapid succession "meaning it" each time. Unless I misunderstand the sincerity requirement.

[Seraphim98]

Is it possible to say "thank you" many times in a row and really mean it…say if some guy risked his life to pull your kid out of a raging wildfire safe and sound? How many "thank yous" are contained in the choked silence when words fail?

Words enrobe the prayer…give it aural expression. They do not constitute it or define it.  

[Volnutt]

Good point.

There's actually a modern Protestant tune that contains like 30 repetitions of "Yes Lord." Though I'm no friend of CCM, that one always "clicked" with me, I just now recalled it.

[biro]

I think the qualifier is very important. Note the adjective "vain." If one prays in a pointless way, or to inflate one's sense of self, then it's vain. However, if a person prays sincerely, the same words don't hurt. Not to be melodramatic, but I was in an accident once, and I remember praying while the emergency techs came to help me: "God help me, God help me..." I hope the Lord would not reject that prayer simply because I was too scared to think up different words.

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