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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2013, 11:43:07 AM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.
I would like to know what drew you, and perhaps what draws othes, to Islam.

I have seen a range of reasons why people are drawn to Islam, besides what I said. People searching for a second family, well you will find one among Muslims until you question Islam.

 Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God.  A Triune God is not alludes easy explanations; exact theological terminology is often needed.  Not so in Islam.  Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.  Christianity does as well, but Islam's appeal, again, is it's simplicity.  And Rebecca identified a key concept when she brought up family.  When I was Muslim I was made to feel welcome and loved almost instantly regardless of what mosque I visited.  Juxtapose that with the xenophobia of Orthodox Churches where almost no one even looks at you and, for someone longing for family, the deal is almost immediately sealed. 
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« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2013, 12:36:36 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote
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« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2013, 01:43:14 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote

For those who convert, it is made to seem very simple. No God but Allah, end of subject. The finer details are often lost in translation or never sought after, sadly. I know maybe 1 or 2 converts (and I know a ton) who really have a true understanding of God and Islam versus the simple statement most are fed.
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« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2013, 02:27:49 PM »

Juxtapose that with the xenophobia of Orthodox Churches where almost no one even looks at you and, for someone longing for family, the deal is almost immediately sealed.

I never experienced that. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I had nearly the entire parish introducing itself to me, serving me food at coffee hour, talking to me, making me feel at home. Then again, it's OCA.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2013, 02:30:47 PM »

Juxtapose that with the xenophobia of Orthodox Churches where almost no one even looks at you and, for someone longing for family, the deal is almost immediately sealed.

I never experienced that. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I had nearly the entire parish introducing itself to me, serving me food at coffee hour, talking to me, making me feel at home. Then again, it's OCA.

OCA is a tad bit more open, but the GOC was also like this with me as well...lots of very welcoming folks.
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« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2013, 02:59:22 PM »

Here's some trivia.

The god of Islam prays to Muhammad.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

"Indeed, Allah and His angels pray upon the Prophet. O you who believe, pray and confer your salutations upon him." (Qur'an 33:56)

They think the Holy Trinity is weird about how the God-man Christ prays to the Father God, what about God praying to a man and commanding all others to do the same?

This Mohammad must be pretty important.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 03:01:09 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2013, 03:06:51 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote

For those who convert, it is made to seem very simple. No God but Allah, end of subject. The finer details are often lost in translation or never sought after, sadly. I know maybe 1 or 2 converts (and I know a ton) who really have a true understanding of God and Islam versus the simple statement most are fed.

Did you ever have the occasion to ask the more moderate or Liberal Muslims why they don't demonstrate against Islamic extremism.  This I often wondered why if these folks are peaceful as they claim to be why they didn't try to curtain extreme views of the Quran..  Are they using the Quran as an excuse to do harm to other IOW?
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« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2013, 03:09:25 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote

I've also been told that Islam is somewhat Pharisaical in its approach to faith.  Mostly outward signs of showing one's duties to Allah.
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« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2013, 03:23:20 PM »

Yeah, Islam is Rabbinical Judaism on steroids.

They believe in punishment in this world and the "hereafter" for non-believers, heretics, innovators et al. Muslims are commanded to enforce corporal punishment by the god of Islam.

I haven't met any moderate Muslims, I knew a Pakistani guy for a while and I knew many Somali youth before they left my school. I also visited a Mosque and I wouldn't go far enough to call them moderate.

Especially at the Mosque, I got them to talk about "Sheikh" Osama bin Ladin openly with me.

Deception is allowed in times of war in Islam. That, or the people who call themselves moderate are ignoring or unaware of the teachings of Islam.

There are also some playing off the Islamic view of "Gradualism" that they gradually implement the fullness of the Islamic law, not all at once. The Muslim Brotherhood hold this stance, al-Qaeda rejects it and believes at implementing it all at once. Kind of like throwing a frog in boiled water versus putting it in cold water and boiling the frog.

Here's an article by Abdullah al-Andalusi, a Muslim apologist:
Quote
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 03:26:53 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2013, 03:24:13 PM »

I've also been told that Islam is somewhat Pharisaical in its approach to faith.  Mostly outward signs of showing one's duties to Allah.

Correct. Islam is a law-oriented religion. The 5th Surah of the Qur'an is very similar in terms of its structure to the Book of Deuteronomy. This is nothing surprising though when we remember that Islam was born from the adaptation of Judaism to Arabs along with the addition of pagan elements.
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« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2013, 03:35:14 PM »

Here are some reasons for some people's attraction to Islam:

*Islam is chronologically ahead of Judaism and Christianity and thus claims to be the final and best religion.

*Islam claims to correct and improve the former religions.

*Islam rewrites history and brings several elements from different faiths together.

*Islam promotes revenge, vindictiveness, miltancy.

*Islamic theology has almost no mysteries when compared with Christianity.

*Islam has great propagandists and apologists who work hard to convince people at the expense of honesty, consistency, and logics.
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« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2013, 04:43:29 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
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« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2013, 05:14:30 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq: 

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” Ibn Ishaq: 683

Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is after the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.


Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza
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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2013, 05:27:56 PM »

Here are some reasons for some people's attraction to Islam:

*Islam is chronologically ahead of Judaism and Christianity and thus claims to be the final and best religion.

*Islam claims to correct and improve the former religions.

*Islam rewrites history and brings several elements from different faiths together.

*Islam promotes revenge, vindictiveness, miltancy.

*Islamic theology has almost no mysteries when compared with Christianity.

*Islam has great propagandists and apologists who work hard to convince people at the expense of honesty, consistency, and logics.

Excellent. #1 and 3 especially.
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« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2013, 08:42:53 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq: 

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” Ibn Ishaq: 683

Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is after the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.


Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza
I don't understand, you're quoting from an "Islamic" source that stipulates the Koran is lying?

What?
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« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2013, 08:44:38 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq: 

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” Ibn Ishaq: 683

Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is after the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.


Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza
I don't understand, you're quoting from an "Islamic" source that stipulates the Koran is lying?

What?

Crazy huh?
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« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2013, 08:46:39 PM »

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This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

Talk about "propagandists"........ Wink

Welcome to WikiIslam,
the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2013, 06:47:02 AM »

Quote
This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

Talk about "propagandists"........ Wink

Welcome to WikiIslam,
the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page


Anyone can edit WikiIslam, so does that mean anyone can insert false information?

No it does not. Like the German Wikipedia, all of our pages are under "Pending-changes protection", meaning they are open for editing, but changes will only become visible to readers once they have been reviewed by a user with the appropriate access, known as a "reviewer", or by the administration.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2013, 07:18:02 AM »

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.   The very folks that coddle up to Islamism are the very ones who would be the first to be persecuted.

Don't worry.  I understood you clearly and agree with you.
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2013, 10:32:23 AM »

For those who were muslim, does the form of the Qur'an, being a dictation, offer more stability as one has to look less at who the authors were and when they wrote, like we do the Bible, and use less textual criticism, form of the writing, etc.?
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« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2013, 08:12:37 PM »

Quote
This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

Talk about "propagandists"........ Wink

Welcome to WikiIslam,
the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page


Anyone can edit WikiIslam, so does that mean anyone can insert false information?

No it does not. Like the German Wikipedia, all of our pages are under "Pending-changes protection", meaning they are open for editing, but changes will only become visible to readers once they have been reviewed by a user with the appropriate access, known as a "reviewer", or by the administration.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions
Right and these "reviwers" can't possibly have a bone to pick with Islam now could they.

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« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2013, 05:33:35 AM »

For those who were muslim, does the form of the Qur'an, being a dictation, offer more stability as one has to look less at who the authors were and when they wrote, like we do the Bible, and use less textual criticism, form of the writing, etc.?

For a Muslim buying the doctrine of dictation and divine authorship in regard to the Qur'an, there will be no need to question that doctrine or approach the text with the aim of criticizing it.
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« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2013, 05:52:38 AM »

My opinion is the greatest appeal to Islam is it is not Christianity.  By this I mean the one good point Phil made was addressing political correctness. Being Christian isn't really PC, not real Christianity, and people are taught basically to despise Christianity.  Islam, at this point in history, is protected because of PC.

This and with so much watered down pseudo-Christianity out there, who would want to be Christian?
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« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2013, 09:18:52 AM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2013, 06:16:39 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2013, 06:37:16 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by  

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

Yeah, but a metaphorical sword isn't a literal sword.

Muhammad has many swords.

Quote

Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.

Muhammad said: ( بُعِثْتُ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ السَّاعَةِ بِالسَّيْفِ حَتَّى يُعْبَدَ اللَّهُ وَحْدَهُ ، لا شَرِيكَ لَهُ ، وَجُعِلَ رِزْقِي تَحْتَ ظِلِّ رُمْحِي ، وَجُعِلَ الذِّلَّةُ وَالصَّغَارُ عَلَى مَنْ خَالَفَ أَمْرِي ، وَمَنْ تَشَبَّهَ بِقَوْمٍ فَهُوَ مِنْهُمْ ) أحمد (4869) . صحيح الجامع (2831)
“I have been sent ahead of the Hour with the sword so that Allaah will be worshipped alone, and my provision has been placed in the shade of my spear, and humiliation has been decreed for those who go against my command, and whoever imitates a people is one of them.”

Quote

Don't throw the cultural relativism nonsense here.

Quote
قُلْ إِن كَانَ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَاؤُكُمْ وَإِخْوَانُكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ وَعَشِيرَتُكُمْ وَأَمْوَالٌ اقْتَرَفْتُمُوهَا وَتِجَارَةٌ تَخْشَوْنَ كَسَادَهَا وَمَسَاكِنُ تَرْضَوْنَهَا أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكُم مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَجِهَادٍ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَتَرَبَّصُوا حَتَّىٰ يَأْتِيَ اللَّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

"Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people."

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا قَاتِلُوا الَّذِينَ يَلُونَكُم مِّنَ الْكُفَّارِ وَلْيَجِدُوا فِيكُمْ غِلْظَةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ "O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous."
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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2013, 07:47:08 PM »


I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

 The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

This same Yeshua also said:

“Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword. (Matthew 26:52)

Now about the SWORD that Yeshua referred to: it is evident in the Gospels that Yeshua's disciples will be the VICTIMS of the sword brought by Him:

I am sending you out like sheep surrounded by wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of people, because they will hand you over to councils  and flog you in their synagogues. And you will be brought before governors and kings because of me, as a witness to them and the Gentiles. (Matthew 10:16-18)

YOU: disciples  THEY: adversaries

And you will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Whenever they persecute you in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:22-23)

Disciples: Passive (subject to the SWORD)
Adversaries: active (using the SWORD)

Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. (Matthew 24:9)

Yeshua brought a SWORD only in the sense that He caused a division even within a family. Yet His followers would be of the persecuted party whilst the unbelievers and enemies would be those persecuting and killing them. There is no evidence in the New Testament to prove the ludicrous Muslim claim/interpretation that Yeshua asked His disciples TO USE the sword He had brought to this world.

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« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2013, 07:57:46 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.
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« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2013, 01:53:07 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by  

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

You want to get into the religion that allows you to beat your wife or wives, why would you be allowed to marry up to 4 women when it is almost certain that this would create family disharmony and this verse you can interpret yourself about marriage of...."Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
Qur'an 65:4"

Just look at what is going on in the world around you, some Muslims blow up and burn Churches, Christians nuns are abused in Egypt...Muslim kill in the name of Allah promised to get rewards in the Jannah...I just dont think it is a religion for peaceful people.  
Jesus knew that He was going to be killed but never ordered to take revenge against Jews or Romans, apart from saying that "Father forgive them for what they dont know what they are doing". Jesus was not a warrior and was not conquering countries or cities. Jesus said to love your enemies and show the other cheek, but in Islam you should be killed for apostasy, for leaving Islam that means you have no chance of even reverting...does not sound good to me that.
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« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2013, 08:16:06 AM »

I think the problem here is that everyone who thinks maybe it's unfair to treat every Muslim like a would-be terrorist is being lumped together under the heading of "liberal." I don't think gay people should be hanged, for example. I also don't think Ann Coulter is right that a woman should be executed for wearing a hijab (not sure about spelling and am on my phone so forgive me if I got that wrong). This has nothing to do with being drawn to or loving Islam. It has to do with not hating someone just because I disagree with them.

Regarding all the violence committed by some Muslims, it's worth noting that the Old Testament Law that Jewish people still claim to live by has some pretty strict rules with violent consequences for those who break them. The difference is in the followers and how they respond to it. Just like the difference between Muslims who are violent and Muslims who are not.

I read an article containing an interview with the infamous "Islamic Rage Boy" (I'm sure you've seen pictures of him). In it, he said that he was at some event and they captured a man, and he got the others to let the guy go, because he thought it was better to forgive. I don't think it's wrong or offensive to say to someone "I disagree with you," or even "You're wrong." I do think it's insulting to caricature your opponent so that they're easier to argue against.
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« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2013, 07:31:11 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by  

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

You want to get into the religion that allows you to beat your wife or wives, why would you be allowed to marry up to 4 women when it is almost certain that this would create family disharmony and this verse you can interpret yourself about marriage of...."Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
Qur'an 65:4"

Just look at what is going on in the world around you, some Muslims blow up and burn Churches, Christians nuns are abused in Egypt...Muslim kill in the name of Allah promised to get rewards in the Jannah...I just dont think it is a religion for peaceful people.  
Jesus knew that He was going to be killed but never ordered to take revenge against Jews or Romans, apart from saying that "Father forgive them for what they dont know what they are doing". Jesus was not a warrior and was not conquering countries or cities. Jesus said to love your enemies and show the other cheek, but in Islam you should be killed for apostasy, for leaving Islam that means you have no chance of even reverting...does not sound good to me that.

The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches, and do it in the name of Christianity. There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

We are to love our enemies as well .

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« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
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« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2013, 08:48:01 PM »

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The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.
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« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2013, 08:49:44 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
You need to prove that last statement. show me Muslim apologetics anywhere in my posts.
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« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2013, 10:50:38 AM »

The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

They can do



without doing

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« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2013, 04:44:40 PM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.

It sounds as if you think the KKK is known for all the good works they have always done.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2013, 06:24:05 PM »



Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.




About 41,900,000 results (0.33 seconds)
Search Results
Prejudice, Racist, or Violent Incidents at MOSQUES - The American ...
theamericanmuslim.org/.../mosques_in_us_that_have_experienced_viole...‎
Jun 6, 2013 - MOSQUES IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENT OR RACIST INCIDENTS OR BEEN VANDALIZED, BURNED, SHOT AT .
Hecklers Cheer Burning Of Tennessee Mosque At Muslim Outreach ...
thinkprogress.org/.../06/.../hecklers-cheer-burning-of-tennessee-mosque/‎
Jun 13, 2013 - Bill Killian, U.S. Attorney of the Eastern District of Tennessee, and ... a mosque in Murfreesboro, TN, that was burned to the ground in 2007.
US mosque burned to ground - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › North America › USA‎
Aug 6, 2012 - A mosque burned to the ground in Missouri on Monday, in what worshippers suspect was a hate attack, less than a day after six people were ...
Missouri mosque destroyed in second fire in a month - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/missouri-mosque-burned
Aug 7, 2012 - A mosque in Joplin, Missouri, was burned to the ground early Monday, just over a month after an attempted arson at the Islamic center, officials ...

And these are just recent.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 06:26:29 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2013, 07:14:16 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
You need to prove that last statement. show me Muslim apologetics anywhere in my posts.

You compared the sword of Christ that judges rightly, to the sword of Muhammad and Islam that has killed millions in Africa, the Middle East and India in it's wars of conquest, and continues to through it's "martyrdom operations."

How is that not an apologetic? Are you saying it's just as legitimate for Muslims to carry swords and take off people's limbs, as it is for Christ to deal with the ungodly?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 07:17:36 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2013, 07:22:00 PM »

The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

They can do


what's that?
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« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2013, 07:30:08 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
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A righteous son of India
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« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2013, 08:32:39 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
Ah, now I see it! Thanks.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2013, 08:59:19 PM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.

It sounds as if you think the KKK is known for all the good works they have always done.
I just explained a little why they light the Cross, don't read too much into it.

But then again, I'm not going to sit here and defend myself on what you believe I "think".
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« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2013, 09:09:54 PM »



Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.




About 41,900,000 results (0.33 seconds)
Search Results
Prejudice, Racist, or Violent Incidents at MOSQUES - The American ...
theamericanmuslim.org/.../mosques_in_us_that_have_experienced_viole...‎
Jun 6, 2013 - MOSQUES IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENT OR RACIST INCIDENTS OR BEEN VANDALIZED, BURNED, SHOT AT .
Hecklers Cheer Burning Of Tennessee Mosque At Muslim Outreach ...
thinkprogress.org/.../06/.../hecklers-cheer-burning-of-tennessee-mosque/‎
Jun 13, 2013 - Bill Killian, U.S. Attorney of the Eastern District of Tennessee, and ... a mosque in Murfreesboro, TN, that was burned to the ground in 2007.
US mosque burned to ground - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › North America › USA‎
Aug 6, 2012 - A mosque burned to the ground in Missouri on Monday, in what worshippers suspect was a hate attack, less than a day after six people were ...
Missouri mosque destroyed in second fire in a month - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/missouri-mosque-burned
Aug 7, 2012 - A mosque in Joplin, Missouri, was burned to the ground early Monday, just over a month after an attempted arson at the Islamic center, officials ...

And these are just recent.
Quote
Though investigators haven't determined the cause, Kester suspects it to be another incident of arson.


Quote
Federal agents have begun an investigation into the new blaze, "and we are basically waiting for a determination to be made on the cause," FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton told CNN.


Quote
"If it is determined that the fire was deliberately set or intentionally set, then we will investigate it to the full extent possible," Patton said.


Sounds like they don't know who lit them fires, much less a bunch of practicing "christians", there are plenty of people who hate Moslems other than zealous followers of Christ. Could've been just some drunk kids or maybe even some other Moslems themselves, Lord knows they hate each other even more than us "infidels" do most of the time.

Them articles prove nothing about  a mass wave of Mosque burnings by "christians" in american or elsewhere like Eastern Christians churches are  dealing with over in the ME.

I don't care how many hits you do on a google search.
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« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2013, 09:20:43 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
You need to prove that last statement. show me Muslim apologetics anywhere in my posts.

You compared the sword of Christ that judges rightly, to the sword of Muhammad and Islam that has killed millions in Africa, the Middle East and India in it's wars of conquest, and continues to through it's "martyrdom operations."

How is that not an apologetic? Are you saying it's just as legitimate for Muslims to carry swords and take off people's limbs, as it is for Christ to deal with the ungodly?
Let's be honest for a change here, there was plenty of blood and violence behind the spread of Christianity worldwide as well, I'm not saying that Jesus condoned it every time but the reality is some christians used the same threat of fear and intimidation as the muzzies did in many cases. I'm not even going to debate about this, history can speak for itself. you can ask the people of Iraq and Afghanistan today how many limbs and lives  were lost due in part to the "christian" regime in the U.S. believeing they were doing "God's work" over there.
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« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2013, 09:22:45 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
That is not a Crucifix.

That big lit up cross is purely a evangelical protestant thing.
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