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Author Topic: my theory on islam  (Read 2997 times) Average Rating: 0
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phil2190
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« on: August 14, 2013, 04:46:21 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 04:50:43 PM »

I am amazed by deep thoughts of thine.
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phil2190
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 05:19:49 PM »

with respect to political correct ness most leftist claim to hate the west because it is rasist ethnocentric warlike imperialistic sexist but were these attributes appear in cultures like saudi arabia only women are allowed to attack them WHY because leftist must identify with something that is weak or that has an image of being defeated like gay people or oppressed women which is were the hatred of western civilization comes into play name one really great achievement that saudiarabia has made ever leftists hate the west because they have achieved very little in their life this prevents christianity from organizing itself like islam
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 05:24:50 PM »

What the hell are you talking about?

You know lots of Muslim countries hang gay people, right? So where did you get the idea that they support them out of political correctness? (I really hope I read your post wrong, and given your 'style,' it's entirely possible that I did and so will everyone else.)

Did you read too much Robert Spencer and then bump your head or something?
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phil2190
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 05:25:46 PM »

no im saying that we are forced to and muslims use that against us
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phil2190
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 05:26:50 PM »

we are force to be tolerant towars people regardless of weather they are disabled, their gender, race, religion, income, ect its called liberalism. and its crap
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 05:28:07 PM »

we are force to be tolerant towars people regardless of weather they are disabled, their gender, race, religion, income, ect its called liberalism. and its crap

Okay, let's see this get moved into Politics.
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 05:30:50 PM »

liberalism is  not political its philisophical it just means everybodie is treaded as an individual but we cannot judge entire groups of people that is were lables such as intolerance and racism and entnocentrism come from and no matter how illogical somebodies point of view is we must respect it
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 05:31:30 PM »

and its poision do not believe this nonsense
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 05:32:00 PM »

liberalism is  not political its philisophical it just means everybodie is treaded as an individual but we cannot judge entire groups of people that is were lables such as intolerance and racism and entnocentrism come from and no matter how illogical somebodies point of view is we must respect it

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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 05:33:18 PM »

Are you ******* kidding me? Homosexuals, fornicators, and adulterers are burned alive, hung, tortured, and beheaded in Muslim countries. Islam is just as "politically incorrect" in regards to tolerance as Christianity is, only difference is that Islam punishes these things (something we should perhaps implement, although in a less harsh manner), whereas Christianity teaches not to judge one another with the threat of being judged for the same sin.

The liberal West is attracted to Islam because let's face it, American Christians are perhaps some of the stupidest people ever. They are behind pretty much all bigotry and idiocy in the West, and they HATE Islam with a burning passion. Liberals are attracted to Islam because it pisses off the American Christians that they are trying to rebel against, who they view as the enemy. It's the same logic as a rebellious teenage girl dating the bad-boy to anger her incompetent mother.
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 05:36:31 PM »

 I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.   The very folks that coddle up to Islamism are the very ones who would be the first to be persecuted.
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2013, 05:37:55 PM »

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.

And that they have swell friends like you.
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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2013, 05:39:50 PM »

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.

And that they have swell friends like you.

Oh, are we getting personal here.  Suffice it to say that the mindset of a Liberal is in contrast to what a Muslim believes.
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2013, 05:42:00 PM »

Well, you were this close to sounding like you wish the same thing would happen to them. You don't seem to be in a rush to protect them, either.
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2013, 05:42:43 PM »

Well, you were this close to sounding like you wish the same thing would happen to them. You don't seem to be in a rush to protect them, either.

Who is the "them"...?
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2013, 05:52:20 PM »

^Bill Clinton?
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 05:55:15 PM »

^Bill Clinton?

Makes as much sense as anything phil's phone barfed up, so sure.
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 06:01:56 PM »

^Bill Clinton?

Maybe I wasn't being clear so here goes again: The modern day Progressive is very sympathetic to Islam. All we have to do is read an Internet headline to figure this out.  Knowing the Progressives proclivity to cuddle the GLT communities more that a traditionalist might, He, the Progressive, would be more susceptible to the consternations of Muslim groups in general, notwithstanding the hard core Islamists themselves.   Don't get me wrong, I don't want anything to happen to anyone, but some folks just cant leave others alone.  Right now we are having our hands full in the Middle East.  I don't want to see this area of the world once dominated by the Orthodox Christians fall totally to the Muslim world that they want.
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2013, 06:06:02 PM »

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.

And that they have swell friends like you.

Oh, are we getting personal here.  Suffice it to say that the mindset of a Liberal is in contrast to what a Muslim believes.

I would say that the mindset of Christ in the Gospels is also in contrast to the radical things that extremist believe in, If Muslims are your enemies than Jesus said to love them, for what does it profit you if you only love those who love you. Matt 5:44
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 06:10:15 PM »

...let's face it, American Christians are perhaps some of the stupidest people ever.

I suspect I assign this notion a wider application than you probably do. 
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 06:10:23 PM »

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.

And that they have swell friends like you.

Oh, are we getting personal here.  Suffice it to say that the mindset of a Liberal is in contrast to what a Muslim believes.

I would say that the mindset of Christ in the Gospels is also in contrast to the radical things that extremist believe in, If Muslims are your enemies than Jesus said to love them, for what does it profit you if you only love those who love you. Matt 5:44

Yes, I also believe this as well.  But I don't think the Muslim religion has anything like this thinking in their Quran.  eg Turning the other cheek, etc.
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 06:22:50 PM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 06:26:54 PM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.

Good, then I can ask: How does love fit into the everyday life of a Muslim.  We as Christians are to love our neighbor as ourselves, is there a similar quote in the Quran?  I hear that Love doesn't play as an important role in Islam but tolerance and submissiveness do.  Thank you
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2013, 06:38:05 PM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.

Good, then I can ask: How does love fit into the everyday life of a Muslim.  We as Christians are to love our neighbor as ourselves, is there a similar quote in the Quran?  I hear that Love doesn't play as an important role in Islam but tolerance and submissiveness do.  Thank you

OK, I can't speak for all Muslims or former Muslims, but you hit the nail on the head. What many converts (don't know about born Muslims) often do is to confuse that submission and Master/Slave relationship with love. There is no mention of love in the Quran, at least not that I can recall and this includes between people and Allah and the person. Muslims must love Allah, however Allah offers no promise of love in return, only fear of what happens if you disobey. At this point in time I don't see much tolerance in Islam either...probably since the salafists wouldn't find it tolerable to allow me to live after leaving Islam. Now let me say the word love appears in transliterations of the Quran! But having an Arabic speaker who will tell you what the real Arabic Quran says or knowing enough to read yourself, you won't find it mentioned.

Yes the Quran says "None of you have faith until you love thy neighbor what you love for thyself" but on the flipside, if your neighbor is a Jew there are other verses that negate this and say it is OK to pretty much hate them. Love thy Muslim neighbor?
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2013, 07:29:24 PM »

I am no expert on Islam, But what I have read informs that there are different schools of thought just as there are in our religion, and that love for your neighbor is something that is practiced by most Muslims .

It is just as wrong for us to categorize them by the extremists Muslim, as it is for them to categorize us by the extremist Christian.
 
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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2013, 07:52:35 PM »

I am no expert on Islam, But what I have read informs that there are different schools of thought just as there are in our religion, and that love for your neighbor is something that is practiced by most Muslims .

It is just as wrong for us to categorize them by the extremists Muslim, as it is for them to categorize us by the extremist Christian.
 

This is true. However the poster asked about Islam not Muslims themselves. I have many peaceful Muslim friends still but if they followed their religion fully then it would go something like this:


Oh you who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)


That is what Islam says. Muslims can choose if they follow this or not.
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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2013, 08:11:01 PM »

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Oh you who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)

I think you are misquoting that or not mistranslating it from the Arabic.

I have heard Muslim scholars explain it a little differently from the Koranic text.

It doesn't mean ALL Jews and Christians.

Are you or do you speak/read Arabic by any chance?
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2013, 08:15:43 PM »

I am no expert on Islam, But what I have read informs that there are different schools of thought just as there are in our religion, and that love for your neighbor is something that is practiced by most Muslims .

It is just as wrong for us to categorize them by the extremists Muslim, as it is for them to categorize us by the extremist Christian.
 

This is true. However the poster asked about Islam not Muslims themselves. I have many peaceful Muslim friends still but if they followed their religion fully then it would go something like this:


Oh you who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)


That is what Islam says. Muslims can choose if they follow this or not.


Yup. Tafsir al-Tabari on this verse says:
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قال أبو جعفر: يعني تعالى ذكره بقوله: " ومن يتولهم منكم فإنه منهم "، ومن يتولَّ اليهود والنصارى دون المؤمنين، فإنه منهم. يقول: فإن من تولاهم ونصرَهم على المؤمنين، فهو من أهل دينهم وملتهم

"Abu Jafar al-Tabari said: Meaning, 'and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them' Whoever allies with the Jews and Christians over the believers, then he is one of them. And whoever allies with them and supports them over the believers he is one of their religion and their faith." (Translation mine)

http://qurancomplex.org/Quran/tafseer/Tafseer.asp?nSora=5&t=tabary&l=arb&nAya=51#5_51

So it affirms the interpretation that Muslims become apostates from their faith. The whole verse seems more likely in context about alliances than actual friendship. But the more important context is that this friendship is favoring the Jews and Christians over "the believers" (i.e., the Muslims).

Edit: Charles Martel, Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a state of war.

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1352. Abu Hurairah and Jabir (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "War is deception."

[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Commentary: "Khad'ah" means deception, i.e., employing a strategy which causes misunderstanding to the enemy, and one's real intent does not become evident to them. This is permissible in Islam in the state of war.

The Ahadith mentioned in this chapter make the importance of Jihad and the reason for so much stress on it abundantly clear. These also show how great a crime it is to ignore it. It is very unfortunate indeed that present-day Muslims are guilty of renouncing Jihad in every part of the world. May Allah help us to overcome this negligence.

http://www.guidedways.com/riadusaleheen/chapter_display.php?book=11&chapter=234

Furthermore, all schools of Islamic thought teach jihad. Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, and Maliki schools of Sunni and the Jafari (which was named after the guy I just quoted) of the Shia.

Even ancient schools like the Thawri school, and the Zahiri school teach it.

The Zahiri school ruled Spain before they were destroyed by the Reconquista.
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« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2013, 08:16:25 PM »

Quote
Oh you who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)

I think you are misquoting that or not mistranslating it from the Arabic.

I have heard Muslim scholars explain it a little differently from the Koranic text.

It doesn't mean ALL Jews and Christians.

Are you or do you speak/read Arabic by any chance?
I do.  What's your question?
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« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2013, 08:18:04 PM »

People are drawn to Strength. Islam is going to keep gaining ground in Europe until there's an alternative.
When people think of Christianity they think of the Nietzsche view of a slave religion, while Islam is a conquerors religion.
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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2013, 08:34:27 PM »

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Oh you who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)

I think you are misquoting that or not mistranslating it from the Arabic.

I have heard Muslim scholars explain it a little differently from the Koranic text.

It doesn't mean ALL Jews and Christians.

Are you or do you speak/read Arabic by any chance?

I am not Arab, I speak Arabic but reading is a no-go. The above is directly from my English Quran I had sitting in the top of my closet so the translator goofed it if anyone. Scholars can explain stuff in a multitude of ways depending on their school of though, level of faith, etc.

I see nowhere in that verse where it says select Jews and Christians. Can you tell me where it is mentions how I tell a good, company worthy Christian from one Muslims need to keep away from?
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2013, 08:39:23 PM »

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Oh you who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)

I think you are misquoting that or not mistranslating it from the Arabic.

I have heard Muslim scholars explain it a little differently from the Koranic text.

It doesn't mean ALL Jews and Christians.

Are you or do you speak/read Arabic by any chance?
I do.  What's your question?
Are you familiar with that koranic text he/she quoted about Jews and Chriatians not "allying" with Moslems?

Didn't Mohamed ally with Jews and Christians against the pagans early in his "ministry"?

Weren't they even part of his "Ummah" at one time?
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2013, 08:48:12 PM »

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Are you familiar with that koranic text he/she quoted about Jews and Chriatians not "allying" with Moslems?

Didn't Mohamed ally with Jews and Christians against the pagans early in his "ministry"?

Weren't they even part of his "Ummah" at one time?

The Ummah is the body of Muslims, not of non-Muslims. I don't know if he allied "early" with the Jews and Christians. Later, they were called the Ahzab or "Confederates" against him.
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2013, 08:58:06 PM »

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Are you familiar with that koranic text he/she quoted about Jews and Chriatians not "allying" with Moslems?

Didn't Mohamed ally with Jews and Christians against the pagans early in his "ministry"?

Weren't they even part of his "Ummah" at one time?

The Ummah is the body of Muslims, not of non-Muslims. I don't know if he allied "early" with the Jews and Christians. Later, they were called the Ahzab or "Confederates" against him.
I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later. But he befriended some others that helped finance him during his struggle to take back Mecca.
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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2013, 09:07:14 PM »

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The apostle wrote a document... in which he made a friendly agreement with the Jews. The Life of Muhammad p.231

So, you seem to be right about that. What point are you trying to make? That the verse can be interpreted in that context?
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2013, 09:56:14 PM »

The very folks that coddle up to Islamism are the very ones who would be the first to be persecuted.

I don't know very many progressives or LGBT people who are sympathetic to conservative/traditional (I can't think of a better term) Islam. Most are no more friendly to it than they are to Christianity.  I can understand why you might think that if you get your info from the mainstream media, but rest assured, on the ground things are much different.  

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.

And that they have swell friends like you.

Oh, are we getting personal here.  Suffice it to say that the mindset of a Liberal is in contrast to what a Muslim believes.

I have several Muslim friends and colleagues and every single one of them is far more liberal than I am.  Muslims are not necessarily any different than the rest of us.
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« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2013, 11:34:43 PM »

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The apostle wrote a document... in which he made a friendly agreement with the Jews. The Life of Muhammad p.231

So, you seem to be right about that. What point are you trying to make? That the verse can be interpreted in that context?

See quote about "War is deception."

Some really hardline Muslims happen to think they are 'at war' with the non-Muslim world. Perhaps that friendly agreement was deceptive, too. Muhammed allied himself with a Jewish tribe called the Banu al-Nadir not by friendliness...but by killing their leader Huyyay ibn Akhtab, and forcing his teenage daughter Safiyyah into marriage. All those are the fine details that go along with said document. I have that book you're quoting, I took the University level "Life of Muhammed, Prophet of Islam" course.

He was liked by other tribes of Jews, however but not as many as one would assume.

Totally the most friendly way to make an agreement, by the way. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2013, 11:48:21 PM »

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See quote about "War is deception."

Some really hardline Muslims happen to think they are 'at war' with the non-Muslim world. Perhaps that friendly agreement was deceptive, too. Muhammed allied himself with a Jewish tribe called the Banu al-Nadir not by friendliness...but by killing their leader Huyyay ibn Akhtab, and forcing his teenage daughter Safiyyah into marriage. All those are the fine details that go along with said document. I have that book you're quoting, I took the University level "Life of Muhammed, Prophet of Islam" course.

He was liked by other tribes of Jews, however but not as many as one would assume.

Totally the most friendly way to make an agreement, by the way. Roll Eyes

I am well aware of it, I have been to lots of (Arabic) websites where that sentiment exists. I was even at my local Mosque and I got those sentiments. I have that book too, I just haven't had time to flip through it. I just took the quote from looking through the Table of Contents.

He also forced a Coptic woman Maria into marriage.
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« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2013, 12:22:26 AM »

Quote
See quote about "War is deception."

Some really hardline Muslims happen to think they are 'at war' with the non-Muslim world. Perhaps that friendly agreement was deceptive, too. Muhammed allied himself with a Jewish tribe called the Banu al-Nadir not by friendliness...but by killing their leader Huyyay ibn Akhtab, and forcing his teenage daughter Safiyyah into marriage. All those are the fine details that go along with said document. I have that book you're quoting, I took the University level "Life of Muhammed, Prophet of Islam" course.

He was liked by other tribes of Jews, however but not as many as one would assume.

Totally the most friendly way to make an agreement, by the way. Roll Eyes

I am well aware of it, I have been to lots of (Arabic) websites where that sentiment exists. I was even at my local Mosque and I got those sentiments. I have that book too, I just haven't had time to flip through it. I just took the quote from looking through the Table of Contents.

He also forced a Coptic woman Maria into marriage.

I meant to direct all that at Charles Martel...wasn't directing that at you but I goofed the quoting, my apologies!
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« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2013, 12:31:07 AM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.
I would like to know what drew you, and perhaps what draws othes, to Islam.
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« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2013, 01:43:38 AM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.
I would like to know what drew you, and perhaps what draws othes, to Islam.

I think it is different for women and men, at least that is the general consensus I get. Many women are very drawn not to wearing a hijab but the idea that Islam somehow promotes a woman only being judged for her inner beauty, her intelligence, and other non-physical aspects. I personally wanted to be a nun as a pre-teen and young teen, but I also wanted children. Islam seemed to give me the best of both of those worlds at the time. I happened to be raised in a very lax family where Christianity and the fine details of it were lost on me, and rather than dig deeper into the RCC I looked at Islam which I also thought answered any question I had about the nature of Christ.

Keep in mind I had never heard of Orthodoxy til my mid-twenties, and I became Muslim at 16. Safe to say if I had known about it before Islam, I would have skipped and went towards the GOC or COC.

I have seen a range of reasons why people are drawn to Islam, besides what I said. People searching for a second family, well you will find one among Muslims until you question Islam. I was always very loved and welcomed until that last year. I've seen women searching for men because there is technically no dating AKA instant husband, men looking for a few women at once, supposedly many former inmates become Muslim, some are drawn in by the Arab culture that has become so entwined with Islam, the means of worship, fasting, etc.

GabrieltheCelt is another person who may chime in if he checks out the thread.
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« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2013, 04:01:09 AM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
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« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2013, 10:27:52 AM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.
I would like to know what drew you, and perhaps what draws othes, to Islam.

I think it is different for women and men, at least that is the general consensus I get. Many women are very drawn not to wearing a hijab but the idea that Islam somehow promotes a woman only being judged for her inner beauty, her intelligence, and other non-physical aspects. I personally wanted to be a nun as a pre-teen and young teen, but I also wanted children. Islam seemed to give me the best of both of those worlds at the time. I happened to be raised in a very lax family where Christianity and the fine details of it were lost on me, and rather than dig deeper into the RCC I looked at Islam which I also thought answered any question I had about the nature of Christ.

Keep in mind I had never heard of Orthodoxy til my mid-twenties, and I became Muslim at 16. Safe to say if I had known about it before Islam, I would have skipped and went towards the GOC or COC.

I have seen a range of reasons why people are drawn to Islam, besides what I said. People searching for a second family, well you will find one among Muslims until you question Islam. I was always very loved and welcomed until that last year. I've seen women searching for men because there is technically no dating AKA instant husband, men looking for a few women at once, supposedly many former inmates become Muslim, some are drawn in by the Arab culture that has become so entwined with Islam, the means of worship, fasting, etc.

GabrieltheCelt is another person who may chime in if he checks out the thread.
You think that part of it is that actors/acresses in Hollywood are pressured to be all brauns and beauty, and that us average people turn away from that for something deeper?
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« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2013, 11:31:50 AM »

^Bill Clinton?

Maybe I wasn't being clear so here goes again: ...

 If you'll take a moment to read Biro's 'blog', you'll understand the necessity to be very concise and present your thoughts in a first grade level.
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« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2013, 11:43:07 AM »

Did you ever ask a former Muslim what drew them to Islam in general??

If you would like to really know versus assume I can gladly tell you, as I was Muslim for 10yr.
I would like to know what drew you, and perhaps what draws othes, to Islam.

I have seen a range of reasons why people are drawn to Islam, besides what I said. People searching for a second family, well you will find one among Muslims until you question Islam.

 Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God.  A Triune God is not alludes easy explanations; exact theological terminology is often needed.  Not so in Islam.  Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.  Christianity does as well, but Islam's appeal, again, is it's simplicity.  And Rebecca identified a key concept when she brought up family.  When I was Muslim I was made to feel welcome and loved almost instantly regardless of what mosque I visited.  Juxtapose that with the xenophobia of Orthodox Churches where almost no one even looks at you and, for someone longing for family, the deal is almost immediately sealed. 
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« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2013, 12:36:36 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote
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« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2013, 01:43:14 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote

For those who convert, it is made to seem very simple. No God but Allah, end of subject. The finer details are often lost in translation or never sought after, sadly. I know maybe 1 or 2 converts (and I know a ton) who really have a true understanding of God and Islam versus the simple statement most are fed.
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« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2013, 02:27:49 PM »

Juxtapose that with the xenophobia of Orthodox Churches where almost no one even looks at you and, for someone longing for family, the deal is almost immediately sealed.

I never experienced that. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I had nearly the entire parish introducing itself to me, serving me food at coffee hour, talking to me, making me feel at home. Then again, it's OCA.
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« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2013, 02:30:47 PM »

Juxtapose that with the xenophobia of Orthodox Churches where almost no one even looks at you and, for someone longing for family, the deal is almost immediately sealed.

I never experienced that. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I had nearly the entire parish introducing itself to me, serving me food at coffee hour, talking to me, making me feel at home. Then again, it's OCA.

OCA is a tad bit more open, but the GOC was also like this with me as well...lots of very welcoming folks.
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« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2013, 02:59:22 PM »

Here's some trivia.

The god of Islam prays to Muhammad.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

"Indeed, Allah and His angels pray upon the Prophet. O you who believe, pray and confer your salutations upon him." (Qur'an 33:56)

They think the Holy Trinity is weird about how the God-man Christ prays to the Father God, what about God praying to a man and commanding all others to do the same?

This Mohammad must be pretty important.
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« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2013, 03:06:51 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote

For those who convert, it is made to seem very simple. No God but Allah, end of subject. The finer details are often lost in translation or never sought after, sadly. I know maybe 1 or 2 converts (and I know a ton) who really have a true understanding of God and Islam versus the simple statement most are fed.

Did you ever have the occasion to ask the more moderate or Liberal Muslims why they don't demonstrate against Islamic extremism.  This I often wondered why if these folks are peaceful as they claim to be why they didn't try to curtain extreme views of the Quran..  Are they using the Quran as an excuse to do harm to other IOW?
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« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2013, 03:09:25 PM »

Quote
Indeed, there are a multitude of reasons as to the appeal to Islam not least of which it is very simple in it's approach to God. Additionally, in a world where constant flux is the norm, Islam brings a refreshing stability.

Islam does not have a simple understanding of God. There are the Atharis, Asharis, Pantheists and cultists.

It really isn't as simple as it seems. The Islamic conception of God is very complicated.

Here's a famous Shi'ite rabble-rouser who attacks the Athari (Salafi-Sunni) understanding of God:
Quote

I've also been told that Islam is somewhat Pharisaical in its approach to faith.  Mostly outward signs of showing one's duties to Allah.
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« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2013, 03:23:20 PM »

Yeah, Islam is Rabbinical Judaism on steroids.

They believe in punishment in this world and the "hereafter" for non-believers, heretics, innovators et al. Muslims are commanded to enforce corporal punishment by the god of Islam.

I haven't met any moderate Muslims, I knew a Pakistani guy for a while and I knew many Somali youth before they left my school. I also visited a Mosque and I wouldn't go far enough to call them moderate.

Especially at the Mosque, I got them to talk about "Sheikh" Osama bin Ladin openly with me.

Deception is allowed in times of war in Islam. That, or the people who call themselves moderate are ignoring or unaware of the teachings of Islam.

There are also some playing off the Islamic view of "Gradualism" that they gradually implement the fullness of the Islamic law, not all at once. The Muslim Brotherhood hold this stance, al-Qaeda rejects it and believes at implementing it all at once. Kind of like throwing a frog in boiled water versus putting it in cold water and boiling the frog.

Here's an article by Abdullah al-Andalusi, a Muslim apologist:
Quote
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« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2013, 03:24:13 PM »

I've also been told that Islam is somewhat Pharisaical in its approach to faith.  Mostly outward signs of showing one's duties to Allah.

Correct. Islam is a law-oriented religion. The 5th Surah of the Qur'an is very similar in terms of its structure to the Book of Deuteronomy. This is nothing surprising though when we remember that Islam was born from the adaptation of Judaism to Arabs along with the addition of pagan elements.
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« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2013, 03:35:14 PM »

Here are some reasons for some people's attraction to Islam:

*Islam is chronologically ahead of Judaism and Christianity and thus claims to be the final and best religion.

*Islam claims to correct and improve the former religions.

*Islam rewrites history and brings several elements from different faiths together.

*Islam promotes revenge, vindictiveness, miltancy.

*Islamic theology has almost no mysteries when compared with Christianity.

*Islam has great propagandists and apologists who work hard to convince people at the expense of honesty, consistency, and logics.
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« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2013, 04:43:29 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
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« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2013, 05:14:30 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq: 

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” Ibn Ishaq: 683

Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is after the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.


Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza
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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2013, 05:27:56 PM »

Here are some reasons for some people's attraction to Islam:

*Islam is chronologically ahead of Judaism and Christianity and thus claims to be the final and best religion.

*Islam claims to correct and improve the former religions.

*Islam rewrites history and brings several elements from different faiths together.

*Islam promotes revenge, vindictiveness, miltancy.

*Islamic theology has almost no mysteries when compared with Christianity.

*Islam has great propagandists and apologists who work hard to convince people at the expense of honesty, consistency, and logics.

Excellent. #1 and 3 especially.
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« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2013, 08:42:53 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq: 

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” Ibn Ishaq: 683

Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is after the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.


Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza
I don't understand, you're quoting from an "Islamic" source that stipulates the Koran is lying?

What?
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« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2013, 08:44:38 PM »

I'm pretty sure he did. As a matter of fact, some Jews betrayed him to the pagans during a critical battle and then they paid dearly for it later.

This is not true. Those Jews did not betray Muhammad. If they had done so, there would be no Islam today. That Jewish tribe actually trusted Muhammad and did not think a minute that he would apply to them the rules of war stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
You'e wrong. Some Jews did and they paid dearly for it;

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة‎ alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century. In February/March of 627 AD, their conflict with Muhammad led to a 25-day siege of Banu Qurayza ending in the tribe's surrender.[1] There is much debate about the number executed with some estimating that between 400-900 males (many pubescent and adolescent boys) were beheaded, [2] while the Sunni hadith simply state that all male members were killed, without specifying a figure, and one woman.[3]

Jewish tribes reportedly arrived in Hijaz in the wake of the Jewish-Roman wars and introduced agriculture, putting them in a culturally, economically and politically dominant position.[4][5] However, in the 5th century, the Banu Aws and the Banu Khazraj, two Arab tribes that had arrived from Yemen, gained dominance.[6] When these two tribes became embroiled in conflict with each other, the Jewish tribes, now clients[5][7] or allies[6] of the Arabs, fought on different sides, the Qurayza siding with the Aws.[8]

In 622, the Islamic prophet Muhammad arrived at Yathrib from Mecca and reportedly established a compact between the conflicting parties.[4][9][10] While the city found itself at war with Muhammad's native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh, tensions between the growing numbers of Muslims and the Jewish communities mounted.[8]

In 627, when the Quraysh and their allies besieged the city in the Battle of the Trench, the Qurayza entered into negotiations with the besiegers.[11] Subsequently, the tribe was charged with treason and besieged by the Muslims commanded by Muhammad.[12][13] The Banu Qurayza were overtaken and most of the men, apart from those who surrendered (many of whom converted to Islam in order to save their lives), were beheaded, while all the women and children were taken captive and enslaved.[12][13][13][14][15][16] Several authors have challenged the veracity of this incident, arguing that it was exaggerated or invented.[17][18][19
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq: 

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” Ibn Ishaq: 683

Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is after the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.


Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza
I don't understand, you're quoting from an "Islamic" source that stipulates the Koran is lying?

What?

Crazy huh?
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« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2013, 08:46:39 PM »

Quote
This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

Talk about "propagandists"........ Wink

Welcome to WikiIslam,
the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2013, 06:47:02 AM »

Quote
This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

Talk about "propagandists"........ Wink

Welcome to WikiIslam,
the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page


Anyone can edit WikiIslam, so does that mean anyone can insert false information?

No it does not. Like the German Wikipedia, all of our pages are under "Pending-changes protection", meaning they are open for editing, but changes will only become visible to readers once they have been reviewed by a user with the appropriate access, known as a "reviewer", or by the administration.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2013, 07:18:02 AM »

I dare say that if any take over by Muslims in our country I would have to pity the Gay, transgender, Liberal crowd since it is their outlook on life that is in dire contradiction to Sharia Law.  They ought to be lucky they live in a country that is mostly tolerant of their abominations.   The very folks that coddle up to Islamism are the very ones who would be the first to be persecuted.

Don't worry.  I understood you clearly and agree with you.
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2013, 10:32:23 AM »

For those who were muslim, does the form of the Qur'an, being a dictation, offer more stability as one has to look less at who the authors were and when they wrote, like we do the Bible, and use less textual criticism, form of the writing, etc.?
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« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2013, 08:12:37 PM »

Quote
This is what modern Muslim propagandists assert to save faces, but according to historical accounts there was no treason.

Talk about "propagandists"........ Wink

Welcome to WikiIslam,
the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page


Anyone can edit WikiIslam, so does that mean anyone can insert false information?

No it does not. Like the German Wikipedia, all of our pages are under "Pending-changes protection", meaning they are open for editing, but changes will only become visible to readers once they have been reviewed by a user with the appropriate access, known as a "reviewer", or by the administration.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions
Right and these "reviwers" can't possibly have a bone to pick with Islam now could they.

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« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2013, 05:33:35 AM »

For those who were muslim, does the form of the Qur'an, being a dictation, offer more stability as one has to look less at who the authors were and when they wrote, like we do the Bible, and use less textual criticism, form of the writing, etc.?

For a Muslim buying the doctrine of dictation and divine authorship in regard to the Qur'an, there will be no need to question that doctrine or approach the text with the aim of criticizing it.
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« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2013, 05:52:38 AM »

My opinion is the greatest appeal to Islam is it is not Christianity.  By this I mean the one good point Phil made was addressing political correctness. Being Christian isn't really PC, not real Christianity, and people are taught basically to despise Christianity.  Islam, at this point in history, is protected because of PC.

This and with so much watered down pseudo-Christianity out there, who would want to be Christian?
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« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2013, 09:18:52 AM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2013, 06:16:39 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2013, 06:37:16 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by  

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

Yeah, but a metaphorical sword isn't a literal sword.

Muhammad has many swords.

Quote

Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.

Muhammad said: ( بُعِثْتُ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ السَّاعَةِ بِالسَّيْفِ حَتَّى يُعْبَدَ اللَّهُ وَحْدَهُ ، لا شَرِيكَ لَهُ ، وَجُعِلَ رِزْقِي تَحْتَ ظِلِّ رُمْحِي ، وَجُعِلَ الذِّلَّةُ وَالصَّغَارُ عَلَى مَنْ خَالَفَ أَمْرِي ، وَمَنْ تَشَبَّهَ بِقَوْمٍ فَهُوَ مِنْهُمْ ) أحمد (4869) . صحيح الجامع (2831)
“I have been sent ahead of the Hour with the sword so that Allaah will be worshipped alone, and my provision has been placed in the shade of my spear, and humiliation has been decreed for those who go against my command, and whoever imitates a people is one of them.”

Quote

Don't throw the cultural relativism nonsense here.

Quote
قُلْ إِن كَانَ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَاؤُكُمْ وَإِخْوَانُكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ وَعَشِيرَتُكُمْ وَأَمْوَالٌ اقْتَرَفْتُمُوهَا وَتِجَارَةٌ تَخْشَوْنَ كَسَادَهَا وَمَسَاكِنُ تَرْضَوْنَهَا أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكُم مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَجِهَادٍ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَتَرَبَّصُوا حَتَّىٰ يَأْتِيَ اللَّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

"Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people."

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا قَاتِلُوا الَّذِينَ يَلُونَكُم مِّنَ الْكُفَّارِ وَلْيَجِدُوا فِيكُمْ غِلْظَةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ "O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous."
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 06:43:14 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2013, 07:47:08 PM »


I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

 The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

This same Yeshua also said:

“Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword. (Matthew 26:52)

Now about the SWORD that Yeshua referred to: it is evident in the Gospels that Yeshua's disciples will be the VICTIMS of the sword brought by Him:

I am sending you out like sheep surrounded by wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of people, because they will hand you over to councils  and flog you in their synagogues. And you will be brought before governors and kings because of me, as a witness to them and the Gentiles. (Matthew 10:16-18)

YOU: disciples  THEY: adversaries

And you will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Whenever they persecute you in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:22-23)

Disciples: Passive (subject to the SWORD)
Adversaries: active (using the SWORD)

Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. (Matthew 24:9)

Yeshua brought a SWORD only in the sense that He caused a division even within a family. Yet His followers would be of the persecuted party whilst the unbelievers and enemies would be those persecuting and killing them. There is no evidence in the New Testament to prove the ludicrous Muslim claim/interpretation that Yeshua asked His disciples TO USE the sword He had brought to this world.

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« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2013, 07:57:46 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.
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« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2013, 01:53:07 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by  

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

You want to get into the religion that allows you to beat your wife or wives, why would you be allowed to marry up to 4 women when it is almost certain that this would create family disharmony and this verse you can interpret yourself about marriage of...."Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
Qur'an 65:4"

Just look at what is going on in the world around you, some Muslims blow up and burn Churches, Christians nuns are abused in Egypt...Muslim kill in the name of Allah promised to get rewards in the Jannah...I just dont think it is a religion for peaceful people.  
Jesus knew that He was going to be killed but never ordered to take revenge against Jews or Romans, apart from saying that "Father forgive them for what they dont know what they are doing". Jesus was not a warrior and was not conquering countries or cities. Jesus said to love your enemies and show the other cheek, but in Islam you should be killed for apostasy, for leaving Islam that means you have no chance of even reverting...does not sound good to me that.
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« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2013, 08:16:06 AM »

I think the problem here is that everyone who thinks maybe it's unfair to treat every Muslim like a would-be terrorist is being lumped together under the heading of "liberal." I don't think gay people should be hanged, for example. I also don't think Ann Coulter is right that a woman should be executed for wearing a hijab (not sure about spelling and am on my phone so forgive me if I got that wrong). This has nothing to do with being drawn to or loving Islam. It has to do with not hating someone just because I disagree with them.

Regarding all the violence committed by some Muslims, it's worth noting that the Old Testament Law that Jewish people still claim to live by has some pretty strict rules with violent consequences for those who break them. The difference is in the followers and how they respond to it. Just like the difference between Muslims who are violent and Muslims who are not.

I read an article containing an interview with the infamous "Islamic Rage Boy" (I'm sure you've seen pictures of him). In it, he said that he was at some event and they captured a man, and he got the others to let the guy go, because he thought it was better to forgive. I don't think it's wrong or offensive to say to someone "I disagree with you," or even "You're wrong." I do think it's insulting to caricature your opponent so that they're easier to argue against.
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« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2013, 07:31:11 PM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by  

I'd advise you not to, if you read the Qur'an and you can think rationally you would not convert to this religion. Why would you want to convert to a religion that orders you to fight Christians? So, you are prepared to fight your family and friends only because they are not Muslims?

The Sword of the Gospel

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;…

Matthew 10;34-35

"36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew:36-42

You want to get into the religion that allows you to beat your wife or wives, why would you be allowed to marry up to 4 women when it is almost certain that this would create family disharmony and this verse you can interpret yourself about marriage of...."Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
Qur'an 65:4"

Just look at what is going on in the world around you, some Muslims blow up and burn Churches, Christians nuns are abused in Egypt...Muslim kill in the name of Allah promised to get rewards in the Jannah...I just dont think it is a religion for peaceful people.  
Jesus knew that He was going to be killed but never ordered to take revenge against Jews or Romans, apart from saying that "Father forgive them for what they dont know what they are doing". Jesus was not a warrior and was not conquering countries or cities. Jesus said to love your enemies and show the other cheek, but in Islam you should be killed for apostasy, for leaving Islam that means you have no chance of even reverting...does not sound good to me that.

The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches, and do it in the name of Christianity. There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

We are to love our enemies as well .

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« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
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« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2013, 08:48:01 PM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.
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« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2013, 08:49:44 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
You need to prove that last statement. show me Muslim apologetics anywhere in my posts.
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« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2013, 10:50:38 AM »

The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

They can do



without doing

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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2013, 04:44:40 PM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.

It sounds as if you think the KKK is known for all the good works they have always done.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2013, 06:24:05 PM »



Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.




About 41,900,000 results (0.33 seconds)
Search Results
Prejudice, Racist, or Violent Incidents at MOSQUES - The American ...
theamericanmuslim.org/.../mosques_in_us_that_have_experienced_viole...‎
Jun 6, 2013 - MOSQUES IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENT OR RACIST INCIDENTS OR BEEN VANDALIZED, BURNED, SHOT AT .
Hecklers Cheer Burning Of Tennessee Mosque At Muslim Outreach ...
thinkprogress.org/.../06/.../hecklers-cheer-burning-of-tennessee-mosque/‎
Jun 13, 2013 - Bill Killian, U.S. Attorney of the Eastern District of Tennessee, and ... a mosque in Murfreesboro, TN, that was burned to the ground in 2007.
US mosque burned to ground - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › North America › USA‎
Aug 6, 2012 - A mosque burned to the ground in Missouri on Monday, in what worshippers suspect was a hate attack, less than a day after six people were ...
Missouri mosque destroyed in second fire in a month - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/missouri-mosque-burned
Aug 7, 2012 - A mosque in Joplin, Missouri, was burned to the ground early Monday, just over a month after an attempted arson at the Islamic center, officials ...

And these are just recent.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 06:26:29 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2013, 07:14:16 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
You need to prove that last statement. show me Muslim apologetics anywhere in my posts.

You compared the sword of Christ that judges rightly, to the sword of Muhammad and Islam that has killed millions in Africa, the Middle East and India in it's wars of conquest, and continues to through it's "martyrdom operations."

How is that not an apologetic? Are you saying it's just as legitimate for Muslims to carry swords and take off people's limbs, as it is for Christ to deal with the ungodly?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 07:17:36 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2013, 07:22:00 PM »

The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

They can do


what's that?
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« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2013, 07:30:08 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
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« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2013, 08:32:39 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
Ah, now I see it! Thanks.
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« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2013, 08:59:19 PM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.

It sounds as if you think the KKK is known for all the good works they have always done.
I just explained a little why they light the Cross, don't read too much into it.

But then again, I'm not going to sit here and defend myself on what you believe I "think".
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« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2013, 09:09:54 PM »



Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.




About 41,900,000 results (0.33 seconds)
Search Results
Prejudice, Racist, or Violent Incidents at MOSQUES - The American ...
theamericanmuslim.org/.../mosques_in_us_that_have_experienced_viole...‎
Jun 6, 2013 - MOSQUES IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENT OR RACIST INCIDENTS OR BEEN VANDALIZED, BURNED, SHOT AT .
Hecklers Cheer Burning Of Tennessee Mosque At Muslim Outreach ...
thinkprogress.org/.../06/.../hecklers-cheer-burning-of-tennessee-mosque/‎
Jun 13, 2013 - Bill Killian, U.S. Attorney of the Eastern District of Tennessee, and ... a mosque in Murfreesboro, TN, that was burned to the ground in 2007.
US mosque burned to ground - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › North America › USA‎
Aug 6, 2012 - A mosque burned to the ground in Missouri on Monday, in what worshippers suspect was a hate attack, less than a day after six people were ...
Missouri mosque destroyed in second fire in a month - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/missouri-mosque-burned
Aug 7, 2012 - A mosque in Joplin, Missouri, was burned to the ground early Monday, just over a month after an attempted arson at the Islamic center, officials ...

And these are just recent.
Quote
Though investigators haven't determined the cause, Kester suspects it to be another incident of arson.


Quote
Federal agents have begun an investigation into the new blaze, "and we are basically waiting for a determination to be made on the cause," FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton told CNN.


Quote
"If it is determined that the fire was deliberately set or intentionally set, then we will investigate it to the full extent possible," Patton said.


Sounds like they don't know who lit them fires, much less a bunch of practicing "christians", there are plenty of people who hate Moslems other than zealous followers of Christ. Could've been just some drunk kids or maybe even some other Moslems themselves, Lord knows they hate each other even more than us "infidels" do most of the time.

Them articles prove nothing about  a mass wave of Mosque burnings by "christians" in american or elsewhere like Eastern Christians churches are  dealing with over in the ME.

I don't care how many hits you do on a google search.
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« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2013, 09:20:43 PM »

Quote
Did Christ own a sword, did He use it to slaughter His enemies? You call yourself Charles Martel, but you are a shame to his name.
Do you think Charles Martel was nice to his enemies? He used the heavy-handed sword against invading hordes of Saracen Moslems and indigenous pagans on the European continent. Do you really believe that the spread and defense of Christianity was historically by the mere "metaphor" of the Sword of the Gospel?

Surely you're not that naive.

That's the point, Charles Martel fought against the Muslim jihadists, while you are aiding them and apologizing for them. Which is why you are an affront to the name of Charles Martel.
You need to prove that last statement. show me Muslim apologetics anywhere in my posts.

You compared the sword of Christ that judges rightly, to the sword of Muhammad and Islam that has killed millions in Africa, the Middle East and India in it's wars of conquest, and continues to through it's "martyrdom operations."

How is that not an apologetic? Are you saying it's just as legitimate for Muslims to carry swords and take off people's limbs, as it is for Christ to deal with the ungodly?
Let's be honest for a change here, there was plenty of blood and violence behind the spread of Christianity worldwide as well, I'm not saying that Jesus condoned it every time but the reality is some christians used the same threat of fear and intimidation as the muzzies did in many cases. I'm not even going to debate about this, history can speak for itself. you can ask the people of Iraq and Afghanistan today how many limbs and lives  were lost due in part to the "christian" regime in the U.S. believeing they were doing "God's work" over there.
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« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2013, 09:22:45 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
That is not a Crucifix.

That big lit up cross is purely a evangelical protestant thing.
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« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2013, 09:32:01 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
That is not a Crucifix.

That big lit up cross is purely a evangelical protestant thing.

I guess you missed my point.  You don't need to burn a cross in order for it to "illumine the darkness". 
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« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2013, 09:39:30 PM »

Annual papal celebration of the Via Crucis at the Colosseum in Rome...
That is not a Crucifix.

That big lit up cross is purely a evangelical protestant thing.

I guess you missed my point.  You don't need to burn a cross in order for it to "illumine the darkness". 
Maybe you should contact your local Klan chapter and tell them.
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« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2013, 09:47:12 PM »

Maybe you should contact your local Klan chapter and tell them.

Sure.  What's their phone number? 
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« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2013, 09:52:13 PM »

Maybe you should contact your local Klan chapter and tell them.

Sure.  What's their phone number? 
Why don't you google it. Wink
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« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2013, 10:56:57 PM »

What's google?
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« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2013, 01:24:03 AM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 

Huh...?
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« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2013, 05:06:05 PM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.

It sounds as if you think the KKK is known for all the good works they have always done.
I just explained a little why they light the Cross, don't read too much into it.

But then again, I'm not going to sit here and defend myself on what you believe I "think".

You said there was a reason they burn crosses other than terrorizing, there are plenty of documented cases of the KKK terrorizing people, it is what they are known for and what they exist to do, why they wear hoods in public. How would you feel if they burned a cross on your lawn?
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« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2013, 05:10:34 PM »



Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.




About 41,900,000 results (0.33 seconds)
Search Results
Prejudice, Racist, or Violent Incidents at MOSQUES - The American ...
theamericanmuslim.org/.../mosques_in_us_that_have_experienced_viole...‎
Jun 6, 2013 - MOSQUES IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENT OR RACIST INCIDENTS OR BEEN VANDALIZED, BURNED, SHOT AT .
Hecklers Cheer Burning Of Tennessee Mosque At Muslim Outreach ...
thinkprogress.org/.../06/.../hecklers-cheer-burning-of-tennessee-mosque/‎
Jun 13, 2013 - Bill Killian, U.S. Attorney of the Eastern District of Tennessee, and ... a mosque in Murfreesboro, TN, that was burned to the ground in 2007.
US mosque burned to ground - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › North America › USA‎
Aug 6, 2012 - A mosque burned to the ground in Missouri on Monday, in what worshippers suspect was a hate attack, less than a day after six people were ...
Missouri mosque destroyed in second fire in a month - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/missouri-mosque-burned
Aug 7, 2012 - A mosque in Joplin, Missouri, was burned to the ground early Monday, just over a month after an attempted arson at the Islamic center, officials ...

And these are just recent.
Quote
Though investigators haven't determined the cause, Kester suspects it to be another incident of arson.


Quote
Federal agents have begun an investigation into the new blaze, "and we are basically waiting for a determination to be made on the cause," FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton told CNN.


Quote
"If it is determined that the fire was deliberately set or intentionally set, then we will investigate it to the full extent possible," Patton said.


Sounds like they don't know who lit them fires, much less a bunch of practicing "christians", there are plenty of people who hate Moslems other than zealous followers of Christ. Could've been just some drunk kids or maybe even some other Moslems themselves, Lord knows they hate each other even more than us "infidels" do most of the time.

Them articles prove nothing about  a mass wave of Mosque burnings by "christians" in american or elsewhere like Eastern Christians churches are  dealing with over in the ME.

I don't care how many hits you do on a google search.

You made a blanket statement that there no Christians out there burning mosques, as if every Christian is someone you know personally.
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« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2013, 05:23:41 AM »

i feel that people are attracted to islam  due to political correctness gay rights and high divorce rates act. for example most leftists blame( not saying it didn't happen ) the opression of women, jews, gays, atheists, ect on the west .  women have a lobby and can get divorced for no reason at all. most leftist philosophy( politicaly correct ) lies in simply complsaining about how people were treated in the past and critiquing liturature that was in most cases intended for something else. im greek and ive considered islam why simply put the patriarchy because who wants to be constantly reminded that you ancestors are fags or mabey you french and you smell band or are italian and are in the mafia the main problem lies in political correctness which muslims do not have to play by 

I agree with you
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« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2013, 11:28:05 AM »

Quote
The Klu Klux Klan burns crosses and churches
The Klan burns the cross to illuminate it in the darkness, from what I gather it's more of a spiritual or ceremonial thing, not a destructive or blasphemous act. I'm not going to get into whether it's done for an "evil" purpose, just there's a reason other than defacing the Christian symbol or creating terror to other people.

As far as the church burnings, that too has been highly propagandized over the years, as a matter of fact, i believe fairly recently they discovered upon an investigation that more than a few churches were torched by some american blacks themselves or some anarchists of a sort in order to set up the klan or prove there's still that kind of thing going on these days.

Quote
There are too many Christian wrongs to act as if sin is only by others in the muslim countries.

Agreed. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. and "christians" aren't out there anywhere burning mosques.

Quote
We are to love our enemies as well .

Doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves or the innocent from them.

I think that whole "love our enemies" or "turn our cheek" Christian concept is totally out of sorts these days. It's interpretation  seems distinctly in the hands of nonChristians more than not. It does not mean what they think it means.

It sounds as if you think the KKK is known for all the good works they have always done.
I just explained a little why they light the Cross, don't read too much into it.

But then again, I'm not going to sit here and defend myself on what you believe I "think".

You said there was a reason they burn crosses other than terrorizing, there are plenty of documented cases of the KKK terrorizing people, it is what they are known for and what they exist to do, why they wear hoods in public. How would you feel if they burned a cross on your lawn?
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« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2013, 01:58:39 PM »

One thing about the Klan is that they burn crosses at secret meetings.  If the goal is to terrorize, why do it when there are no minorities, Catholics, or Jews around to terrorize?
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« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2013, 02:48:02 AM »

The Klan exists solely as a hate group, they have stated time after time that they believe themselves superior to most others, such as jews blacks and anyone who does not look and think like a white supremacist.
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« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2013, 02:57:33 AM »

Where I'm from (and during the time I was growing up) the KKK were more of a social group for people who want to fit in somewhere, sort of a gang for white boys from rural areas. When I was a teenager my friend and his brother, who never struck me as racists (before or after), went to a KKK rally, to sort of support them without actually participating directly. My cousin and I went to the counter-rally held a few miles away. Wasn't a big deal, and I never heard racist comments or saw racist activities apart from that. *shrugs*

Wait, I thought this thread was about Islam  angel
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« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2013, 09:00:24 AM »

Where I'm from (and during the time I was growing up) the KKK were more of a social group for people who want to fit in somewhere, sort of a gang for white boys from rural areas. When I was a teenager my friend and his brother, who never struck me as racists (before or after), went to a KKK rally, to sort of support them without actually participating directly. My cousin and I went to the counter-rally held a few miles away. Wasn't a big deal, and I never heard racist comments or saw racist activities apart from that. *shrugs*

Wait, I thought this thread was about Islam  angel

You mean the Klan isn't part of the Muslim Brotherhood?  And I thought....Well, okay, maybe I didn't think.
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« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2013, 09:47:31 AM »

One thing about the Klan is that they burn crosses at secret meetings.  If the goal is to terrorize, why do it when there are no minorities, Catholics, or Jews around to terrorize?

Well, back in the "good old days" they could do it in public and get away with it. Times have changed.
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« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2013, 10:10:33 AM »

One thing about the Klan is that they burn crosses at secret meetings.  If the goal is to terrorize, why do it when there are no minorities, Catholics, or Jews around to terrorize?

Well, back in the "good old days" they could do it in public and get away with it. Times have changed.
Plus, these days, you need a burn permit before you start torching thing in people's lawns. Those can take FOREVER to get approved and you do NOT want to get your local codes official after you.  Those guys simply do not quit!  Grin
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« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2013, 11:48:01 AM »

Seriously the Klan showed its true face across NY, PA, NJ and elsewhere in the 1920s with a vitriolic anti immigrant, pro WASP campaign directed at white immigrants and their churches and employers.  Their headquarters for New York was in my hometown and only after the very prim Methodist industrialist who owned the then huge Endicott Johnson shoe factories spoke out against the Klan did  political opinion shift against them (he needed the workers). In 1927 the Klan held a huge rally with over ten thousand followers near Binhamton, NY, burned crosses and marched defiantly by immigrant churches, including the Greek and Slavic ones. They were despised by the old timers I remember growing up. The Klan' s influence in the 20s partly inspired +Archbishop Iakovas' solidarity with the civil rights movement in the 1960s.
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« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2013, 01:05:04 PM »

The Klan exists solely as a hate group, they have stated time after time that they believe themselves superior to most others, such as jews blacks and anyone who does not look and think like a white supremacist.

 That's what they* are now, but they were originally a fraternal organization started by Southern veterans of the War Between the States.  Now they're just a bunch of scared white men who don't know any black people but seem to think black people will soon out number white people and then enslave them.  But they're very tricky in how they present their message.  My barber and his cousin recently went to a Klan rally.  He said everything they said was true.  I asked him what they said and it was basically showing the inconsistencies of American culture such as: the allowance of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People).  If there was a NAAWP (National Association for the Advancement of White People), there would be outrage.  Same thing with BET (Black Entertainment Television); if there was a WET (White Entertainment Television) channel, there would be outrage.  Most white folks, myself included, accept that as fact.  Yet how exactly that means that blacks, Jews and RC's are Satanic and/or inferior is beyond me.  Roll Eyes 


 *There are over 100 different "Klan" organizations now-a-days.  I forget which one is recruiting in my neck of the woods, but I wish they'd go away.
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« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2013, 01:09:48 PM »

There is a NAAWP.  It is called the KKK.  Wink
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« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2013, 01:30:56 PM »

The rabbit hole of Politics beckons soon.....
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« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »

I also found several different "WET"s, but some of them might not be forum appropriate.  Tongue
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« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2013, 01:37:47 PM »

I also found several different "WET"s, but some of them might not be forum appropriate.  Tongue

And just what, young man, were you doing looking for them?? Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2013, 01:41:16 PM »

I also found several different "WET"s, but some of them might not be forum appropriate.  Tongue

And just what, young man, were you doing looking for them?? Shocked Shocked
I was trying to determine if black people would indeed be outraged by them.  One of them was a magazine for "gourmet bathing"

Don't ask.
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« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2013, 01:43:18 PM »

I also found several different "WET"s, but some of them might not be forum appropriate.  Tongue

And just what, young man, were you doing looking for them?? Shocked Shocked
I was trying to determine if black people would indeed be outraged by them.  One of them was a magazine for "gourmet bathing"

Don't ask.

I won't.

But....As a white person (well, sort of beige-ish or something, really.  You know,  FLESH colored...) were you able to determine if black (well, varying shades of brown for the most part, really) people would be outraged by them? 
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« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2013, 01:45:14 PM »

I observed no outrage to date on the matter. I shall continue to closely monitor.
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« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2013, 01:50:25 PM »

I observed no outrage to date on the matter. I shall continue to closely monitor.

We will eagerly await your reportage.  Cool
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« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2013, 03:27:13 PM »

My coworkers and friends told me that my black friend couldn't join the KKK, but could join the New Black Panther Party.  I refuse to believe it!  Not until I see it with my own eyes.
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« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »

My coworkers and friends told me that my black friend couldn't join the KKK, but could join the New Black Panther Party.  I refuse to believe it!  Not until I see it with my own eyes.

Is outrage!
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« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2013, 03:44:20 PM »

One of them was a magazine for "gourmet bathing"

Sort of like this...?  angel
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« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2013, 04:45:52 PM »

The Klan exists solely as a hate group, they have stated time after time that they believe themselves superior to most others, such as jews blacks and anyone who does not look and think like a white supremacist.

 That's what they* are now, but they were originally a fraternal organization started by Southern veterans of the War Between the States.  Now they're just a bunch of scared white men who don't know any black people but seem to think black people will soon out number white people and then enslave them.  But they're very tricky in how they present their message.  My barber and his cousin recently went to a Klan rally.  He said everything they said was true.  I asked him what they said and it was basically showing the inconsistencies of American culture such as: the allowance of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People).  If there was a NAAWP (National Association for the Advancement of White People), there would be outrage.  Same thing with BET (Black Entertainment Television); if there was a WET (White Entertainment Television) channel, there would be outrage.  Most white folks, myself included, accept that as fact.  Yet how exactly that means that blacks, Jews and RC's are Satanic and/or inferior is beyond me.  Roll Eyes 


 *There are over 100 different "Klan" organizations now-a-days.  I forget which one is recruiting in my neck of the woods, but I wish they'd go away.

This is what happens you go the whole simple route but forget the not too simple part.
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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