OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 06:53:05 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Theosis - Sacraments and Reformed Theology  (Read 1025 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« on: August 14, 2013, 01:13:37 PM »

Hey guys,

While I'm considering attending an EO church here in Canada, I may pester you all with some questions. I was just reading an article on bridging the gap between reformed Christians (aka myself) and Orthodoxy. One of the similarities shared between the Orthodox Church and reformed Christians is the understanding of sin as a virus, a plague, a deep disturbing of peace. Just like the problem, the remedy is systemic, holistic; it is an absorption and radiation of Christ Jesus through the power of grace.

If the end and goal of all that we're doing here is Theosis, then why have the sacramental system?

And if Theosis only occurs through grace and grace only occurs through the sacraments, what are we to make of people who profess a sound understanding of Christ's divinity, the trinity, the resurrection, repentance, prayer, fasting. People who act with charity, love, and prudence . . . but have never partook in the sacraments. Considering in particular that none of these things are possible without grace.

Thanks for responding. =] BTW if anyone has recommendations for Orthodox communities in Calgary, Canada, please let me know.
 

Logged
Luka
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 80



« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 01:38:15 PM »

It starts with the sacrament of the Incarnation of the Son of God - the core of the Gospel is God saving creation by becoming creation. The grace is given exactly in and through creation used by God in a holy and redeemed way. This is what we were taught by the Fathers. As for those who are outside the Church (the true Sacrament), God knows what will be with them.

I recommend recent post and the whole blog: http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/08/09/get-out-of-your-mind/
Logged
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 02:01:21 PM »

-The reformed focus on the mind
-The disjunct between mind and spirit
-Authentic spirituality
-The link between spirit and the senses/physical

Con: Instrumentality/necessity of the sacramental life to Theosis.

I enjoyed that article. Thank you for posting it... I guess I ought to actually go to a church physically at this point.  Wink

Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,816



« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 03:23:19 PM »

Yes! You must be able to observe Orthodox worship using all of your senses to really get it.

Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 04:09:12 PM »

This is perhaps an overused way of putting it, but I'm going to use it anyway  Grin The Church is like a hospital, with the virtues, the sacraments, etc. being treatments for the sickness we have. Is it possible for you to survive without treatment? Yeah, I think so. That's not the point though. The idea is to take advantage of everything you can as you work out your salvation. Sacraments aren't the end-all, be-all of grace, they're just a really helpful treatment. The same thing with the virtues, asceticism, attending services, etc. None of these things can save you by themselves. Someone could potentially go through the motions all their lives, fasting on the appointed days, receiving communion almost every week, etc., while inwardly dying spiritually. The point is not that you need the sacraments to be saved, but rather, if you believe the sacraments are what Orthodoxy says they are, that you'd be crazy to not participate. There is also generally a distinction made between sacramental grace, and the type of grace that everyone experiences. None of us would live, or exist for that matter, if it were not for God's grace. He coaxed good intentions out of us, helps us follow through, and then gives us the grace to hopefully finish. But that this kind of grace exists does not mean that sacramental grace is void or peripheral, properly understood (supposing you agree with what the Church claims, anyway).
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 04:26:42 PM »

I forgot one part of it, and this really works best (at all?) if you already believe what the Church teaches about itself, but fwiw it sort of shows how the logical or mindset works internally anyway. The part I left out was: participating in the life of the Church, not just in the church building, but in the Church as a body of Christ, is the best path. It has the best doctors, the best equipment, the best medicine, the best healing rates/successes, etc. Now, can you avoid the hospital and instead rely on your neighbor, who happens to be an RN? Possibly. And certainly if you can't get to the hospital (like, let's say, you don't even know it exists), then an RN is a wonderful option. However, if you have the choice, the hospital would seem to be the clear choice.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 08:34:21 PM »

Asteriktos, thank you. That's a helpful way of looking at it. In fact, in no way is God limited in that understanding of the sacraments. But it shows their instrumentality in theosis.

I've read a solid four articles today. Two from that blog Luka posted (Glory2godforallthings.com) including a criticism of how protestants read the Bible, and two reformed criticisms of the Orthodox faith. While I want to make an informed decision, I also want to avoid getting too involved in squabbles and debates about theology. We only have a limited amount of days.

Our neighbours are actually Russian, and every Sunday I see this young woman returning home with a head scarf and skirt. I kind of want to bring them like some food or a neighbourly gift and I dunno... try to engage them on a discussion on Orthodoxy lol.  Tongue
Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,971


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 08:55:12 PM »

grace only occurs through the sacraments
That is certainly not the Orthodox teaching.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,384



« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 03:20:32 AM »

I find truth also in the fact that the sacraments seem a bit low-level for those who are heavily spiritual (like myself). However, we all need to have all the levels available and go through them. The Eucharist (the most important sacrament, our goal) basically means uniting yourself with God, being in God and He in you, as well as taking care of the healing from guilt through Christ's sacrificial act (we need this healing in this age for we all sinned).

Yet, The Eucharist covers a lot of things (and spiritual levels) and The Church has arranged things for the best and most consistent result. For example, people need to experience the spiritual through the physical (wine and bread) because they cannot simply jump to the spiritual in one step. Or, people need to practice uniting themselves with God as well as being the same Body of Christ (The Church) -- and for this The Church has established a whole "ritual" of confession, services, fasts, feasts, etc. All these are not ends in themselves and not all people will progress at the same rate, but we all need to go through them in one way or another (if we think we don't need them whatsoever, we are in delusion).
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 03:24:24 AM by IoanC » Logged

Nikolaos Greek
Last among equals
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Greece
Posts: 203



« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 03:39:06 PM »

We can't do anything good without God. Sacraments helps and lead the way to God.
God therefore give his grace to all. But it's only very little. Through Sacraments someone can come nearer to God and receive more of his grace.
Theosis is where we want to arrive. Only with much of grace we will be leaded there.
And remember that the Love of God is so powerful that can also save non believers... So...
Logged

God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.055 seconds with 37 queries.