Author Topic: Ancient Greek spelling  (Read 1005 times)

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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Ancient Greek spelling
« on: August 10, 2013, 04:25:52 PM »
Αα a Ββ b Γγ g
Δδ d Εε e Ζζ ds
Ηη ee Θθ th Ιι i
Κκ k Λλ l Μμ m
 Νν n Ξξ ks Οο o
 Ππ p Ρρ r Σσ s
Ττ t Υυ u Φφ ph
 Χχ kh Ψψ ps Ωω oo

If Ιι is before a vowel (Αα,Εε,Ηη,Ιι,Οο,Υυ,Ωω) then between ι and the vowel we add a y in our spelling.
There are no diphthongs. For example χαίρε will be spelled khai're while in new greek he're.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 06:00:11 PM by Cyrillic »
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Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 04:37:10 PM »
In Ancient Greece there has never been only one way of pronouncing things. They didn't pronounce words the same in Sparta and Ionia.

In the same place words were pronounced differently in different periods as well . The pronounciation of Greek in 6th-century Athens was different from the Greek pronounciation in 4th-century Athens.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 04:56:21 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 04:42:05 PM »
I know but this is the  Classic Greek. Dialects existed but this is the most common form.  ;)
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 04:53:41 PM »
I know but this is the  Classic Greek. Dialects existed but this is the most common form.  ;)

Classical Greek is an umbrella term. I think you're referring to Attic Greek and the Erasmian pronounciation  :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 04:55:38 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 05:02:09 PM »
Yes Attic Greek but I searched many sources, not only the work of Erasmus.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 05:42:12 PM »
Welcome to the forum, btw.
"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me"
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 05:59:14 PM »
τι είναι αυτό "splling". :laugh:
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

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Re: Ancient Greek splling
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 05:59:56 PM »
τι είναι αυτό "splling". :laugh:

Don't be a meanie  :)
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 07:00:32 PM »
My mother used to unknowingly be saying a dirty word when she was saying boots in pigeon-greek . Just thought I could help. :angel:
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 04:05:29 AM »
Boots in pigeon-Greek? Dirty word? I am a Greek but I can't understand what word you refer too. Sorry for the title.
After all there were many dialects.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Apostolos

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2013, 11:16:00 AM »
Αα a Ββ b Γγ g
Δδ d Εε e Ζζ ds
Ηη ee Θθ th Ιι i
Κκ k Λλ l Μμ m
 Νν n Ξξ ks Οο o
 Ππ p Ρρ r Σσ s
Ττ t Υυ u Φφ ph
 Χχ kh Ψψ ps Ωω oo

If Ιι is before a vowel (Αα,Εε,Ηη,Ιι,Οο,Υυ,Ωω) then between ι and the vowel we add a y in our spelling.
There are no diphthongs. For example χαίρε will be spelled khai're while in new greek he're.
Το φαινόμενο που αναφέρεις, να προφέρουμε ένα ανύπαρκτο γάμα όταν το ιώτα (που το προφέρουμε...γιώτα) προηγείται των /a/, /e/, /i/, /o/ (των προσθιογλωσσικών φωνηέντων γενικά) λέγεται στη γλωσσολογία ουρανικοποίηση (στ'αγγλικά, palatalization). Αυτό και ο τσιτακισμός, δηλαδή η τροπή οποιουδήποτε συμφώνου σε /ts/ π.χ. Κοινή Ελληνιστική: κοράσιον (lass), Νέα Ελληνικά: κορίτσι (lass), είναι από τα κυριότερα χαρακτηριστικά της νεοελληνικής.
Όσο γιά το ποιά ήταν η προφορά των γραμμάτων στην κλασική περίοδο, αυτό σηκώνει πολλή συζήτηση. Πάντως η προφορά η τωρινή μας, είναι απαράλλαχτη από το 10ο αιώνα. Γενικά τα ελληνικά είναι αρκετά συντηρητική γλώσσα.
Καλώς ήρθες επί τη ευκαιρία ;)
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2013, 11:43:55 AM »
ο τσιτακισμός, δηλαδή η τροπή οποιουδήποτε συμφώνου σε /ts/ π.χ. Κοινή Ελληνιστική: κοράσιον (lass), Νέα Ελληνικά: κορίτσι (lass), είναι από τα κυριότερα χαρακτηριστικά της νεοελληνικής.

Σκέφτηκα ότι το υποκοριστικό επίθημα -τσι ήταν Σλαβικής προέλευσης. Υπάρχει και στα Ρουμανικά: κορίτσι = fetiță.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 11:56:35 AM by Romaios »

Offline Apostolos

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2013, 01:16:32 PM »
ο τσιτακισμός, δηλαδή η τροπή οποιουδήποτε συμφώνου σε /ts/ π.χ. Κοινή Ελληνιστική: κοράσιον (lass), Νέα Ελληνικά: κορίτσι (lass), είναι από τα κυριότερα χαρακτηριστικά της νεοελληνικής.

Σκέφτηκα ότι το υποκοριστικό επίθημα -τσι ήταν Σλαβικής προέλευσης.
Yes, most Greek toponymics in -ιτσα are undoubtably Slavic (e.g Βρεστενίτσα, Λαγκοβίτσα) but feminine hypocoristics (or diminutives) in -ιτσι are definitely Greek. Τhe general consensus is that they derive from the suffix -κιον that used to form neuter diminutives (e.g. μειράκιον = adolescent boy) which in Medieval Greek became -κι and under the influence of tsitacism, -τσι (which produced the feminine form -τσι οr -τσα). For instance, in the Cappadocian Greek dialect -far away from any Slavic influences, the diminutive of γιασκάλα (the Cappadocian form of δασκάλα = female teacher) is γιασκαλίτσα.
Υπάρχει και στα Ρουμανικά: κορίτσι = fetiță
I think you can blame the Balkan sprachbund for that  ;D

(Congratulations for your Greek btw)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 01:19:51 PM by Apostolos »
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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2013, 03:27:16 PM »
Ευχαριστώ για την διευκρύνηση. Ναι έχεις δίκαιο. ;)
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 04:50:40 AM »
Yes, most Greek toponymics in -ιτσα are undoubtably Slavic (e.g Βρεστενίτσα, Λαγκοβίτσα) but feminine hypocoristics (or diminutives) in -ιτσι are definitely Greek.

You're right - I mixed up the Slavic toponymic suffix (my mother comes from a village called Racovița) with the feminine diminutive.

Τhe general consensus is that they derive from the suffix -κιον that used to form neuter diminutives (e.g. μειράκιον = adolescent boy) which in Medieval Greek became -κι and under the influence of tsitacism, -τσι (which produced the feminine form -τσι οr -τσα).

Then tsitacism only occurs in feminine nouns (after -η/?), because -ακι(ον) is still the most productive diminutive: κορίτσι, but παιδάκι; even feminines:  εκκλησία > εκκλησάκι. Are there other examples (non-diminutives) where tsitacism applies? 

(Congratulations for your Greek btw)

Thank you - there's room for much improvement, believe me!  :)

Offline Apostolos

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Re: Ancient Greek spelling
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 06:57:06 AM »
Yes, most Greek toponymics in -ιτσα are undoubtably Slavic (e.g Βρεστενίτσα, Λαγκοβίτσα) but feminine hypocoristics (or diminutives) in -ιτσι are definitely Greek.

You're right - I mixed up the Slavic toponymic suffix (my mother comes from a village called Racovița) with the feminine diminutive.

Τhe general consensus is that they derive from the suffix -κιον that used to form neuter diminutives (e.g. μειράκιον = adolescent boy) which in Medieval Greek became -κι and under the influence of tsitacism, -τσι (which produced the feminine form -τσι οr -τσα).

Then tsitacism only occurs in feminine nouns (after -η/?), because -ακι(ον) is still the most productive diminutive: κορίτσι, but παιδάκι; even feminines:  εκκλησία > εκκλησάκι. Are there other examples (non-diminutives) where tsitacism applies? 
No, it does not occur only in feminine nouns but in the case of neuter and masculine ones, it's more idiomatic and depends on the regiolect. Examples:
Δεκανίκιον (neuter noun, Medieval Greek for crutch) => Δεκανίκι (Μodern Standard Greek) => Δεκανίτσι (Megaran regiolect)
Kαττούλιον (neuter noun, kitten in Medieval Greek) => κατσούλι (Cretan for cat)
Bοῦττις (fem. noun, Hellenistic vessel in the shape of the frustum of a cone) => βουτσί (neuter noun, barrel in the Corfian regiolect) etc

(Congratulations for your Greek btw)
Thank you - there's room for much improvement, believe me!  :)

The best is oftentimes the enemy of the good
Ἄνωθεν οἱ Προφῆται. Ἦχος Βαρύς.

St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"