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Author Topic: Pope Francis on Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 4571 times) Average Rating: 0
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Fabio Leite
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« on: August 07, 2013, 05:34:05 PM »

In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration.

They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question.

Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead  you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference.

When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East. John Paul II wrote it in his Letter. But so many times the luxus of the West makes us lose the horizon. I don’t know, it came to me to say this. Thank you.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/07/pope-francis-on-divine-liturgy-center.html
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 05:48:47 PM »


Wooo.....what?

(....as I grab onto my desk, not to fall off my chair....)

That's amazing.
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 06:44:33 PM »


Wooo.....what?

(....as I grab onto my desk, not to fall off my chair....)

That's amazing.

Let us pray that the West repents and returns to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 07:22:54 PM »


Wooo.....what?

(....as I grab onto my desk, not to fall off my chair....)

That's amazing.

Let us pray that the West repents and returns to Orthodoxy.

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 07:34:47 PM »

It's a really nice statement from Pope Francis, in his relatively informal style.  But that's about all it is.   
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 07:41:35 PM »

Great points by the Holy Father. I hope he takes concrete steps to back of up his words.
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 07:48:32 PM »

It's a really nice statement from Pope Francis, in his relatively informal style.  But that's about all it is.   

Amen to that....
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 07:57:49 PM »

His own Eastern Catholics perform much the same liturgies as the Orthodox. It's not as if he's never heard of them before.
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 08:05:28 PM »

Yeah yeah we've heard the platitude before.

Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm.
Nah.

What is more harming was the blind eye to the pedophilia that was happening in the church. It is completely shameful to moralize the world when their is a log in your own eye.
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 08:32:13 PM »

When he was elected to the Papal Throne, I read that he used to attend a ROCOR Church in Buenos Aries for the celebration of the Nativity of Christ, according to the Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 09:03:32 PM »

Yea sure, Francis has such nice things about the OL while he's out to crush the TLM in his own.

Empty words again from Mr. Humility. Angry

Excellent comment from that article here;

"Encouraging? No i am very sorry. The last 4 popes have spoken beautiful words regarding the liturgy but at the same time they did nothing to drag us out of the mess THEY made. They say this and do the opposite. The liturgy has been destroyed in 90% of the catholic world and the current pope is not going to stop that. Look at his celebrations, they are a disgrace, even for the novus ordo. We are soooo getting tired with this. What is the meaning of these words he said about the Orthodox liturgy??? Nothing, they are empty because he acts in the opposite way. But hey, there are a lot of you cheering and saying: Ohhh thank you holy father! But the ordinary catholic man/woman in the street can do nothing with these words. They have to survive in former catholic countries (like Belgium) where the Mass has been completely raped and destroyed. We see the modernist forces grow even stronger and stronger today. It's a total wasteland here. We are at the end of our rope here...but ohhhh thank you holy father for the beautiful words..."
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 09:09:54 PM »

Wasn't Pope Francis, when he was still Cardinal in Argentina, the prefect of the Eastern Rite Congregations in South America?  I'm not surprised by his comments especially if he was actively involved in governing them which would (I would think) require him to know a great deal of the Eastern Rite Liturgy as well as its praxis.
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 09:14:01 PM »


Wooo.....what?

(....as I grab onto my desk, not to fall off my chair....)

That's amazing.

Let us pray that the West repents and returns to Orthodoxy.

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

Neither do I.

That is why I used the clause, "that the West repents and returns to Orthodoxy."
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 09:18:35 PM »

Yea sure, Francis has such nice things about the OL while he's out to crush the TLM in his own.

Empty words again from Mr. Humility. Angry

Excellent comment from that article here;

"Encouraging? No i am very sorry. The last 4 popes have spoken beautiful words regarding the liturgy but at the same time they did nothing to drag us out of the mess THEY made. They say this and do the opposite. The liturgy has been destroyed in 90% of the catholic world and the current pope is not going to stop that. Look at his celebrations, they are a disgrace, even for the novus ordo. We are soooo getting tired with this. What is the meaning of these words he said about the Orthodox liturgy??? Nothing, they are empty because he acts in the opposite way. But hey, there are a lot of you cheering and saying: Ohhh thank you holy father! But the ordinary catholic man/woman in the street can do nothing with these words. They have to survive in former catholic countries (like Belgium) where the Mass has been completely raped and destroyed. We see the modernist forces grow even stronger and stronger today. It's a total wasteland here. We are at the end of our rope here...but ohhhh thank you holy father for the beautiful words..."

No doubt, the Pope likes our Divine Liturgy (DL) because it is ancient.
And like the reformers who wrote the ICEL liturgy, he and his liturgists would cannibalize our DL and do horrible things with it. That is the fear that a lot of Eastern Catholics shared with me when I was in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church. And frankly, that is why a lot of Melkites have gone East to the Antiochian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 10:46:50 PM »


Wooo.....what?

(....as I grab onto my desk, not to fall off my chair....)

That's amazing.

Let us pray that the West repents and returns to Orthodoxy.

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

Neither do I.

That is why I used the clause, "that the West repents and returns to Orthodoxy."

I should have just said I agree but this is a hot button issue for me.  Once I got a handle on things I left Catholicism.  Long story that I don't want to muck through again.  My worst fear is that Rome will get their foot in the door and they will do a hatchet job on our liturgy.  I don't trust them one bit!

Viking
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2013, 10:50:53 PM »

It seems like this pope is bipolar.

He wants to be Orthodox one day, and the next he wants to be a Liberal Catholic.

I wouldn't get too cozy with him. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 10:55:27 PM »


No doubt, the Pope likes our Divine Liturgy (DL) because it is ancient.
And like the reformers who wrote the ICEL liturgy, he and his liturgists would cannibalize our DL and do horrible things with it. That is the fear that a lot of Eastern Catholics shared with me when I was in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church. And frankly, that is why a lot of Melkites have gone East to the Antiochian Orthodox Church.[/quote]

I did not realize the Melkites are pulling the pins and punching out.   Is the number fairly substantial and is it mainly in the Middle East or here in the States?

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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 10:58:48 PM »

Dare I say that this Pope's lovely words in praise of Orthodox liturgical praxis are little different to what motivates non-Orthodox artists to want to paint icons. They're enamored of, and intrigued by, the "exotic" and "mystical", but this is, all too often, simply and sadly, a superficial fascination.

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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 12:21:17 AM »


"No doubt, the Pope likes our Divine Liturgy (DL) because it is ancient.
And like the reformers who wrote the ICEL liturgy, he and his liturgists would cannibalize our DL and do horrible things with it. That is the fear that a lot of Eastern Catholics shared with me when I was in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church. And frankly, that is why a lot of Melkites have gone East to the Antiochian Orthodox Church."

I did not realize the Melkites are pulling the pins and punching out.   Is the number fairly substantial and is it mainly in the Middle East or here in the States?

Viking

The number fluctuates, but I am in Southern California, not in the Middle East.
However, when Antiochians come from the Middle East sometimes they gravitate to the Melkite Church, especially if the Divine Liturgy is offered in Arabic. So while some Melkites convert to the Antiochian, Greek, or OCA, those fresh off the boat from Syria and Lebanon may attend or convert to the Melkite Church.
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 12:26:09 AM »

Wasn't Pope Francis, when he was still Cardinal in Argentina, the prefect of the Eastern Rite Congregations in South America?  I'm not surprised by his comments especially if he was actively involved in governing them which would (I would think) require him to know a great deal of the Eastern Rite Liturgy as well as its praxis.

This keeps getting brought up from time to time to accentuate Pope Francis' "Eastern credentials", but it's not uncommon for the Latin bishop to have pastoral oversight over Eastern Catholics in his territory whose Churches don't have a hierarchy in that particular place.  Beyond having friends, visiting once in a while, etc., can he really be said to have the Eastern credentials some want us to believe?  Personally, I don't think it really matters much, but I am curious.
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 12:46:10 AM »

THIS POPE SCARES ME.

he is trying to be everything to everyone.

He is on a serious mission to brown nose the world.

What is his mission?

Does he want to unite us all into his bland watered down version of Chrisitanity?

With what he said abt Orthodoxy Liturgy...does he want to assimilate us into the (his) fold.
Gaining some of our "Grace" but in turn diluting us.
As in a drop of water (Orthodoxy) added to the huge sea (Catholic).
destroying us and he/they not gaining much?

Is this where they were all heading, Orthodox and catholic with that word...barff....eccumenisim?

Out of all the popes, i just kinda ignore them but this one realy does scare me?
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 01:04:39 AM »

If he cares so much about holiness and all that jazz in the liturgy, you'd think he'd start at home. Particularly with the powers given to Roman Popes via their (ahem) unique ecclesiology...but I'm pretty sure I made this same point about the previous Roman Pope, too, who was also presented as being serious about liturgy. It's all talk and pretty (empty) words until proven otherwise -- not harmful, necessarily, but about as exciting, amazing, or inspiring as a week-old tuna casserole. Roll Eyes

(And to think he says this after the beach blanket banality that was the Rio/World Youth Day...thing...whatever that was. Ugh.)
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 03:41:15 AM »

Come on. His Holiness was polite. Is it really that bad?
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 09:00:40 AM »



I should have just said I agree but this is a hot button issue for me.  Once I got a handle on things I left Catholicism.  Long story that I don't want to muck through again.  My worst fear is that Rome will get their foot in the door and they will do a hatchet job on our liturgy.  I don't trust them one bit!

Viking

I can well understand your fears, but don't forget it is the people, the parishioners who are also the guardians of the faith. Remember Florence and Ravena where some of our bishops compromised their faith by accepting the Supremacy issue, Purgatory, and the Filioque only to be admonished after returning home and then had to retract their earlier proclamations?   Does Rome have this type of guardianship in their church?  I kind of doubt it since all power comes top down.  So, I would not be as fearful knowing that it is the whole Church that guards the faith not just the Hierarchs.
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 09:07:23 AM »

it is the whole Church that guards the faith not just the Hierarchs.

And *that* is the real meaning of "kat'holic", not "universal".
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 10:18:11 AM »

I can well understand your fears, but don't forget it is the people, the parishioners who are also the guardians of the faith. Remember Florence and Ravena where some of our bishops compromised their faith by accepting the Supremacy issue, Purgatory, and the Filioque only to be admonished after returning home and then had to retract their earlier proclamations?   Does Rome have this type of guardianship in their church?  I kind of doubt it since all power comes top down.  So, I would not be as fearful knowing that it is the whole Church that guards the faith not just the Hierarchs.


Very true.   Perhaps as a convert I tend to be a little paranoid.

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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2013, 06:24:19 AM »

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

We (Catholics) have heard this come-on-home message an innumerable number of times. Which is not to say that there's any harm in hearing it again from you, but on the other hand one more time isn't going to "do the trick".
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« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2013, 08:39:12 AM »

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

We (Catholics) have heard this come-on-home message an innumerable number of times. Which is not to say that there's any harm in hearing it again from you, but on the other hand one more time isn't going to "do the trick".

Amen, considering the fact that we consider where we are to be home Grin
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« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2013, 02:09:02 PM »

Come on. His Holiness was polite. Is it really that bad?

Probably not, but some folks seem to think the Roman Catholics are coming to eat them. It gets silly after a while.
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« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »

Come on. His Holiness was polite. Is it really that bad?

Probably not, but some folks seem to think the Roman Catholics are coming to eat them. It gets silly after a while.

lol I thought I was the only person that noticed this paranoia
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« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2013, 02:33:43 PM »

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING!!!

THE POPE SAID SOMETHING NICE ABOUT OUR LITURGY, IT IS A PAPIST PLOT TO DESTROY ORTHODOXY!

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
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« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2013, 02:50:26 PM »

Hmm. For my part, I thought I was agreeing with RC poster Charles Martel, rather than saying that this is a plot against Orthodoxy. That being said, can anyone really deny that those churches formed out of Rome-united sections of formerly Orthodox people have experienced the kind of liturgical and doctrinal watering-down of that some in this thread worry about? In other words, just because this benign and ultimately meaningless statement is not itself some kind of plot to destroy Orthodoxy doesn't mean that there is nothing to worry about in overtures from the Roman communion. Rome would, after all, have all Orthodox of whatever particular church adopt its particular doctrine and discard sound Orthodox doctrine, to say nothing of the change in externalities which would also likely follow any union (again, with the Rome-affiliated Easterners and Orientals as proof of that).
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« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 03:55:34 PM »

I am glad to hear his kind words about Orthodox liturgy.

On another note:
Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm.
Nah. What is more harming was the blind eye to the pedophilia that was happening in the church. It is completely shameful to moralize the world when their is a log in your own eye.
It may be just a coincidence, but the RC Church has a normal practice of rotating priests between parishes often. At the same time, they also switch the deviant priests around, especially when a scandal develops. As a result, the parishioners with the problem may feel that they do not have to worry about it, and the problem was taken away. Or alternately not as much pressure builds up to defrock. In any case, the end result is that the problem in actuality is just moved around.

I am not saying most priests or bad or that any western services are bad. But rather there is a systemic problem that their hierarchy allows, if not facilitates.
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« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 04:19:35 PM »

It may be just a coincidence, but the RC Church has a normal practice of rotating priests between parishes often. At the same time, they also switch the deviant priests around, especially when a scandal develops. As a result, the parishioners with the problem may feel that they do not have to worry about it, and the problem was taken away. Or alternately not as much pressure builds up to defrock. In any case, the end result is that the problem in actuality is just moved around.

I am not saying most priests or bad or that any western services are bad. But rather there is a systemic problem that their hierarchy allows, if not facilitates.
Absolutely agree.
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« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 09:33:01 PM »

Wasn't Pope Francis, when he was still Cardinal in Argentina, the prefect of the Eastern Rite Congregations in South America?  I'm not surprised by his comments especially if he was actively involved in governing them which would (I would think) require him to know a great deal of the Eastern Rite Liturgy as well as its praxis.

This keeps getting brought up from time to time to accentuate Pope Francis' "Eastern credentials", but it's not uncommon for the Latin bishop to have pastoral oversight over Eastern Catholics in his territory whose Churches don't have a hierarchy in that particular place.  Beyond having friends, visiting once in a while, etc., can he really be said to have the Eastern credentials some want us to believe?  Personally, I don't think it really matters much, but I am curious.

Maybe, but not all hierarchy in the RC have eastern rite parishes and are pastorally responsible fOr them. Was Benedict XVI ever cardinal archbishop for any eastern rite congregations?  I'm sure that as prefect of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith, he had to involve himself with the hierarchy of the eastern rite, but this was not done in any pastoral manner.
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« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2013, 10:06:21 PM »

Wasn't Pope Francis, when he was still Cardinal in Argentina, the prefect of the Eastern Rite Congregations in South America?  I'm not surprised by his comments especially if he was actively involved in governing them which would (I would think) require him to know a great deal of the Eastern Rite Liturgy as well as its praxis.

This keeps getting brought up from time to time to accentuate Pope Francis' "Eastern credentials", but it's not uncommon for the Latin bishop to have pastoral oversight over Eastern Catholics in his territory whose Churches don't have a hierarchy in that particular place.  Beyond having friends, visiting once in a while, etc., can he really be said to have the Eastern credentials some want us to believe?  Personally, I don't think it really matters much, but I am curious.

Along with your question I would ask: what of the Western credentials of Patriarch Bartholew or the other patriarchs?
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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 11:02:05 PM »

Based upon the pictures that I saw of Pope Francis (while he was still Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires) participating in an Eastern Catholic liturgy his mix of Western and Eastern vestments would indicate that he is not familiar with the rules for celebrating rites other than one's own.
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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2013, 03:20:52 AM »

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

We (Catholics) have heard this come-on-home message an innumerable number of times. Which is not to say that there's any harm in hearing it again from you, but on the other hand one more time isn't going to "do the trick".

Amen, considering the fact that we consider where we are to be home Grin

Uh... but how can you be home when we are, in fact, the ones home? I'm afraid I've just bested you, my friend, with impenetrable logic. Orthodoxy always wins!
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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2013, 03:35:40 AM »

Impressive statement! The West, and the whole world, forgot Orthodoxy. The need to be helped to remember, not forced to "repent" and "return".
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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2013, 04:47:05 AM »

Wow. Who new that such simple words could spark so much controversy? Gosh. I guess I can understand the concerns though. I'm not a big fan of the papacy at all, obviously. But I try to give each Pope the benefit of the doubt. Pope Francis appears to be thoroughly Pro-Life and truly concerned about the poor. So I think he's doing a lot of good so far. But I'm more focused on our own Orthodox Church. Let's not get distracted here. And we do have the promise of Our Lord that the gates of hell shall not prevail.


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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2013, 06:34:30 AM »

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

We (Catholics) have heard this come-on-home message an innumerable number of times. Which is not to say that there's any harm in hearing it again from you, but on the other hand one more time isn't going to "do the trick".

Amen, considering the fact that we consider where we are to be home Grin

Uh... but how can you be home when we are, in fact, the ones home? I'm afraid I've just bested you, my friend, with impenetrable logic. Orthodoxy always wins!

Your words put me in a real pickle ... until suddenly the answer came to me like a bolt from the blue: we're home, and you're not home! It's so simple, yet who would have ever thought it? I think I may have a calling to write a book, to share this revelation with the rest of the world.

Excuse me while I go tell the people at CAF.

P.S. I guess this also means that Catholics should start changing our habits, i.e. we should start telling you guys to "come on home".
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« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2013, 07:37:10 AM »

In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration.

They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question.

Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead  you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference.

When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East. John Paul II wrote it in his Letter. But so many times the luxus of the West makes us lose the horizon. I don’t know, it came to me to say this. Thank you.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/07/pope-francis-on-divine-liturgy-center.html

Forget it Frank. We will not join you. Nice try
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« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2013, 10:29:30 AM »

Maybe, but not all hierarchy in the RC have eastern rite parishes and are pastorally responsible fOr them. Was Benedict XVI ever cardinal archbishop for any eastern rite congregations?  I'm sure that as prefect of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith, he had to involve himself with the hierarchy of the eastern rite, but this was not done in any pastoral manner.

I'm not sure if Benedict XVI ever had pastoral responsibility over Eastern Catholic communities while he was a diocesan bishop, and as I said before, I don't think it matters either way.  Neither he nor Francis were elected based on their experience or lack thereof with the Christian East. 

It was simply my observation that, in the immediate aftermath of the election and the rush of journalists and bloggers to find out more about Jorge Bergoglio, one of the "facts" presented was that he was bishop for the Eastern Catholics, and so he had "experience" with the Christian East.  That pastoral responsibility, on its own, means very little in terms of familiarity.  Supposedly he would visit the Russians on Old Calendar Christmas, is good friends with the new Ukrainian Catholic primate, etc., so there's obviously more to it than just an "on paper" arrangement.  But I don't know if it's everything that many RC commentators would have us believe.  I don't believe there's a hidden agenda there, I think it's just assigned more importance than it has. 

Personally, I think a positive comment about the liturgy is a first, "knee jerk" response to any question regarding Orthodoxy, and given that these were off-the-cuff remarks, so be it (they were beautiful remarks, after all).  Perhaps there were "political" or "diplomatic" reasons why he couldn't go beyond that, but I can't help thinking that, in what is increasingly becoming a "post-Christian" Europe, his response to a question about the 1025th anniversary of the Christianisation of a good part of Europe could've been more than, in essence, "They have a cool liturgy, we need that". 

That he can say this about the Orthodox liturgy while at the same time allowing his own Church's liturgy to run the gamut, even in his own celebrations, is another matter, but the irony is not lost on liturgically minded RC's. 

Along with your question I would ask: what of the Western credentials of Patriarch Bartholew or the other patriarchs?

Since I don't believe "Eastern credentials" are "necessary" for a Pope of Rome, I don't think "Western credentials" are "necessary" for the Orthodox primates.  They should know how to do their job at least satisfactorily. 
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« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2013, 10:30:57 AM »

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING!!!

THE POPE SAID SOMETHING NICE ABOUT OUR LITURGY, IT IS A PAPIST PLOT TO DESTROY ORTHODOXY!

TO ARMS! TO ARMS!

Yup

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« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2013, 10:37:45 AM »

Exactly but not with compromise on our part.  They are welcome home but not to change us.   Sorry, I do not trust them.

Viking

We (Catholics) have heard this come-on-home message an innumerable number of times. Which is not to say that there's any harm in hearing it again from you, but on the other hand one more time isn't going to "do the trick".

Why are you camping on our door step on this forum?  Just hanging around in the hood?

Viking

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