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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Catholism  (Read 1485 times) Average Rating: 0
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andrewlya
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« on: August 11, 2013, 01:12:50 PM »

Hi all,ive always considered Orthodoxy to be the original, hence the oldest, denomination of Christianity. The I've spoken to one Catholic and he said that it is actually Catholism that was the 1st Church and denomination and then a Church had split off from then and formed Orthodoxy...is it right? I still think the Orthodoxy the original Christian belief. 

What is your knowledge on this,please.
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 01:22:28 PM »

Orthodox are the faithful original, and the RCC the innovator and begetter of many innovating offshoots.
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 01:36:04 PM »

Hi all,ive always considered Orthodoxy to be the original, hence the oldest, denomination of Christianity. The I've spoken to one Catholic and he said that it is actually Catholism that was the 1st Church and denomination and then a Church had split off from then and formed Orthodoxy...is it right? I still think the Orthodoxy the original Christian belief. 

What is your knowledge on this,please.

Both EO and RC claim this. I have read/heard it many times. 
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 01:41:00 PM »

Hi all,ive always considered Orthodoxy to be the original, hence the oldest, denomination of Christianity. The I've spoken to one Catholic and he said that it is actually Catholism that was the 1st Church and denomination and then a Church had split off from then and formed Orthodoxy...is it right? I still think the Orthodoxy the original Christian belief. 

What is your knowledge on this,please.

Both EO and RC claim this. I have read/heard it many times. 

And what is your stance on this?
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 01:42:19 PM »

IMO they both have roots in the ancient Church. The question is not whether one or the other was the original, but rather whether one of them strayed from the faith.
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 05:12:52 PM »

IMO they both have roots in the ancient Church. The question is not whether one or the other was the original, but rather whether one of them strayed from the faith.

By this measure, wouldn't any number of Protestant groups have the same claim to "roots in the ancient Church"? 

I'm not criticizing what you are saying, I'm just curious where the delineation is...
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2013, 06:51:03 PM »

The Churches that are now Orthodox have continuous lineal succession from the Apostles.

So does the Church that is now Roman Catholic.

Each can say that the other 'split off' from itself, and there is no 'objectively right' answer that can be determined without taking a side in the Schism. If the Orthodox Church's claim that the Roman Catholic Church added to the Faith and is heretical is correct, then the Roman Catholic Church can reasonably be said to be newer, having come into being when the Church of Rome abandoned Orthodoxy.

On the other hand, if the Roman Catholic Church's claim that the Eastern bishops wrongly rejected (among other things) the authority of the Roman Pontiff and thus split from the Church and are schismatic is correct, then it can reasonably be said that the Orthodox Church is newer, having come into being when the Eastern bishops abandoned Catholicism.

To ask 'Which Church is older?' as if it were independent of the question of which Church is true is meaningless.
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 07:00:41 PM »

By this measure, wouldn't any number of Protestant groups have the same claim to "roots in the ancient Church"? 

I'm not criticizing what you are saying, I'm just curious where the delineation is...

The difference is apostolic succession and adherence to Tradition in the sense of handing down that which was received in historical continuity.
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 07:47:13 PM »

By this measure, wouldn't any number of Protestant groups have the same claim to "roots in the ancient Church"? 

I'm not criticizing what you are saying, I'm just curious where the delineation is...

The difference is apostolic succession and adherence to Tradition in the sense of handing down that which was received in historical continuity.

Isn't Apostolic Succession, in the Orthodox sense, dependent on passing on the True Faith...?  If it is merely a matter of a laying on of hands, innumerable groups have a legitimate claim to tracing back to the roots of Christianity.  Anyway, I'm leading this thread off-topic, so I'll step out.
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 08:48:12 PM »

Hi all,ive always considered Orthodoxy to be the original, hence the oldest, denomination of Christianity. The I've spoken to one Catholic and he said that it is actually Catholism that was the 1st Church and denomination and then a Church had split off from then and formed Orthodoxy...is it right? I still think the Orthodoxy the original Christian belief. 

What is your knowledge on this,please.

Both EO and RC claim this. I have read/heard it many times. 
The former is right, and the latter are wrong, no matter how many times the claim is made.

The start point of the way the Vatican operates and believes can  be pointed out, and it is not in the 1st century. For insistance, the "ad limina" obligation:
Quote
...we can find no trace in the earliest age of any obligation binding them to repair to Rome at stated times. The first vestiges of this duty are found in the ancient practice of celebrating twice a year provincial councils of the bishops of Italy who pertained to the province of the Roman Pontiff. In the fifth century, Pope Leo I insists on the custom of Sicily sending three bishops yearly to Rome to assist at a council. In the next century, Gregory I declared that although in his time the Sicilian bishops were obliged to visit Rome only once every three years, yet he extends the term to five years. A Roman council under Pope Zacharias (A.D. 743) decreed that bishops consecrated by the pope, who reside near Rome, should make the visit ad limina yearly in person, and those who are far away should fulfil the same obligation by letter (can. IV). A custom gradually arose which, at least from the eleventh century, obliged metropolitans when asking for the pallium, and, soon after, all bishops to visit the thresholds of the apostles at stated times, either personally or by a substitute. That this visit was of strict obligation can be gathered from the expressions of Paschal II (cap. iv, x, De elect., I, 6), and especially of Innocent III in many decretals, while in the Decretals of Gregory IX, a form of oath is given (cap, iv, x, De jurejurand., II, 24), in which bishops are obliged before their consecration to promise that they will visit Rome annually, either personally or by deputy, unless the pope dispenses them.

In 1585 Sixtus V issued the Constitution "Romanus Pontifex", which for over three hundred years formed the main rule and norm for visits ad limina. This document states in detail within what term of years, each bishop, from whatever part of the world, should visit Rome, and what heads of information he should consider in making his report to the pope. Benedict XIV (23 Nov. 1740) in the Constitution "Quod Sancta", extended the obligation to prelates nullius ruling over a separate territory. This pope also established a particular congregation super statu ecclesiarum to deal with the reports of Bishops when they made the prescribed visit.

The present discipline concerning visits ad limina is found in the Decree of the Consistorial Congregation, issued by order of Pius X (31 Dec., 1909) for all bishops not subject to the jurisdiction of the Propaganda. This decree states that every bishop must render to the pope an account of the state of his diocese once every five years. The quinquennial periods are to begin in 1911. In the first year of that term, the report is to be sent in by the bishops of Italy and of the islands of Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, and Malta; in the second year, by the bishops of Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Scotland, and Ireland; in the third year, by the bishops of the Austro-Hungarian and German Empires and of the remainder of Europe; in the fourth year, by the bishops of all America; in the fifth year, by the bishops of Africa, Asia, Australia, and the adjacent islands. In their first report, the bishops are directed to answer every question in a subjoined elenchus, but in subsequent relations they are merely to add anything new, if such there be, and state the result of the counsels and admonitions given by the Sacred Congregation in its reply to the report. Bishops, when they come to Rome in fulfilment of their obligation of ad limina, must visit the tombs of the apostles and present themselves before the pope. Ordinaries who reside outside of Europe are obliged to visit the Eternal City once every alternate five years, or only decennially. The bishop may satisfy this obligation, either personally or by his coadjutor or auxiliary bishop, or even, with permission of the Holy See, by a priest. Finally, the decree declares that this visit and diocesan report to the pope are not to take the place of the canonical visitation of the diocese, which must be made annually, or, in large dioceses, biennially.
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15478a.htm

The Vatican's 1909 rule is far, FAR from the Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2013, 08:49:42 PM »

The Churches that are now Orthodox have continuous lineal succession from the Apostles.

So does the Church that is now Roman Catholic.

Each can say that the other 'split off' from itself, and there is no 'objectively right' answer that can be determined without taking a side in the Schism. If the Orthodox Church's claim that the Roman Catholic Church added to the Faith and is heretical is correct, then the Roman Catholic Church can reasonably be said to be newer, having come into being when the Church of Rome abandoned Orthodoxy.

On the other hand, if the Roman Catholic Church's claim that the Eastern bishops wrongly rejected (among other things) the authority of the Roman Pontiff and thus split from the Church and are schismatic is correct, then it can reasonably be said that the Orthodox Church is newer, having come into being when the Eastern bishops abandoned Catholicism.

To ask 'Which Church is older?' as if it were independent of the question of which Church is true is meaningless.
Yes and no.  No, it can be answered as a historical question, but yes, that has its true meaning in which Church is true.
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2013, 08:51:54 PM »

IMO they both have roots in the ancient Church. The question is not whether one or the other was the original, but rather whether one of them strayed from the faith.

By this measure, wouldn't any number of Protestant groups have the same claim to "roots in the ancient Church"? 

I'm not criticizing what you are saying, I'm just curious where the delineation is...
Exactly.

What makes Protestantism distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes the Vatican distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes Orthodoxy distinct is already found in the first century Church.
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 06:54:06 AM »

Seeking the truth and leaving out personal opinions and expectations will at least set us free...and hopefully lead us to the true Church, as well. There is no simple answer, but one has to truly "convince himself" with God's help.
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 05:17:00 PM »

Eastern Orthodox is the  true church.
Roman catholics are wrong because they changed dogmas, added new wrong ones etc.
Yet Orthodox is true because Pope was anathematized for this above believes. Would the west be held in the church while they were wrong?
Orthodox did not left from the Pope. Pope left from Christ. Neither the Pope nor any patriarch is the head of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic church. Christ is.
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 06:21:31 PM »

IMO they both have roots in the ancient Church. The question is not whether one or the other was the original, but rather whether one of them strayed from the faith.

Exactly.

In my experience, when people (on either side) say "Our church is the one that is 2000 years ago" it is usually a cheap rhetorical trick to make it sound like they have offered proof of their true-church claim, when in fact they have only restated it in a different way.
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 06:22:00 PM »

What makes Protestantism distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes the Vatican distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes Orthodoxy distinct is already found in the first century Church.

Rejecting communion with the Bishop of Rome can be found in the first century Church?

Wink Grin
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 09:39:40 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 09:41:39 PM »

What makes Protestantism distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes the Vatican distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes Orthodoxy distinct is already found in the first century Church.

Rejecting communion with the Bishop of Rome can be found in the first century Church?

Wink Grin
rejecting communion with heretics is definitely found in the first century Church.

and rejecting communion with the heretical head of the Vatican isn't anything that makes Orthodoxy distinctive.
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 09:43:01 PM »

IMO they both have roots in the ancient Church. The question is not whether one or the other was the original, but rather whether one of them strayed from the faith.

Exactly.

In my experience, when people (on either side) say "Our church is the one that is 2000 years ago" it is usually a cheap rhetorical trick to make it sound like they have offered proof of their true-church claim, when in fact they have only restated it in a different way.
having the unbroken 2,000 year history is in itself a true-church claim.  Or rather, fact.
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2013, 09:45:36 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2013, 09:46:34 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

As it usually does. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2013, 09:46:55 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin

No we are  Cheesy  oh wait... Wink
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2013, 09:57:52 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin

No we are  Cheesy  oh wait... Wink

Sigh. It makes perfect sense to me, an Orthodox Christian, why Orthodox Christianity is the One True Faith. Why does it not make sense to you, a Roman Catholic, that Roman Catholicism is clearly an apostate faith?!
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2013, 10:04:02 PM »

Aaaand here we go.
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2013, 10:09:21 PM »

GOOBLE GOBBLE, GOOBLE GOBBLE, ONE OF US, ONE OF US

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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2013, 10:10:51 PM »

GOOBLE GOBBLE, GOOBLE GOBBLE, ONE OF US, ONE OF US



POM nomination!!!
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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2013, 10:11:25 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin

No we are  Cheesy  oh wait... Wink

Sigh. It makes perfect sense to me, an Orthodox Christian, why Orthodox Christianity is the One True Faith. Why does it not make sense to you, a Roman Catholic, that Roman Catholicism is clearly an apostate faith?!
Is this a serious question, or a joke? Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2013, 10:18:23 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin

No we are  Cheesy  oh wait... Wink

Sigh. It makes perfect sense to me, an Orthodox Christian, why Orthodox Christianity is the One True Faith. Why does it not make sense to you, a Roman Catholic, that Roman Catholicism is clearly an apostate faith?!
Is this a serious question, or a joke? Smiley

Is that a serious question, or a joke!?
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2013, 10:22:28 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin

No we are  Cheesy  oh wait... Wink

Sigh. It makes perfect sense to me, an Orthodox Christian, why Orthodox Christianity is the One True Faith. Why does it not make sense to you, a Roman Catholic, that Roman Catholicism is clearly an apostate faith?!
Is this a serious question, or a joke? Smiley

Is that a serious question, or a joke!?
Cheesy

But in all seriousness, I'm a Catholic, and not Eastern Orthodox, because I believe in the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, the filioque, etc. Though, if I ever had a change of heart on those things, I would join you all. Cheesy
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2013, 10:30:51 PM »

Wow. This thread will amount to nothing more than...

"We are the truch Church"

"No we are"

"No we are"

"No we are"

Isn't that what it always boils down to?

P.S. We are.  Grin

No we are  Cheesy  oh wait... Wink

Sigh. It makes perfect sense to me, an Orthodox Christian, why Orthodox Christianity is the One True Faith. Why does it not make sense to you, a Roman Catholic, that Roman Catholicism is clearly an apostate faith?!
Is this a serious question, or a joke? Smiley

Is that a serious question, or a joke!?
Cheesy

But in all seriousness, I'm a Catholic, and not Eastern Orthodox, because I believe in the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, the filioque, etc. Though, if I ever had a change of heart on those things, I would join you all. Cheesy

Sorry, but we have a pretty elite thing going on right now, we wouldn't want to risk contamination. But have you considered Eastern Catholicism? Wink (Peter J will love that recommendation)
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2013, 10:33:07 PM »


Sorry, but we have a pretty elite thing going on right now, we wouldn't want to risk contamination.

True. I do have scholasticism all over me.  Cheesy


But have you considered Eastern Catholicism? Wink (Peter J will love that recommendation)
I attened a Byzantine Catholic parish.  angel
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2013, 10:34:54 PM »

What makes Protestantism distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes the Vatican distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes Orthodoxy distinct is already found in the first century Church.

Rejecting communion with the Bishop of Rome can be found in the first century Church?

Wink Grin

Why would you believe that communion with Rome is part of God's plan for the church and even necessary for it? Isn't that extremely arbitrary and more or less unfounded in scripture or tradition?
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2013, 10:38:31 PM »

What makes Protestantism distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes the Vatican distinct cannot be found in the first century Church.  What makes Orthodoxy distinct is already found in the first century Church.

Rejecting communion with the Bishop of Rome can be found in the first century Church?

Wink Grin

Why would you believe that communion with Rome is part of God's plan for the church and even necessary for it? Isn't that extremely arbitrary and more or less unfounded in scripture or tradition?

Oh boy. Here comes William interrupting our serious debate with some sort of frivolous point. And I was *this* close to toppling the Vatican with my infallible logic:

The Orthodox Church is the One True Church.

The Roman Catholic Church is not the Orthodox Church.

Therefore, The Roman Catholic Church is not the One True Church.

Let's see your "scholasticism" topple that impenetrable fortress, Papist!
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2013, 12:01:01 AM »

IMO they both have roots in the ancient Church. The question is not whether one or the other was the original, but rather whether one of them strayed from the faith.

Exactly.

In my experience, when people (on either side) say "Our church is the one that is 2000 years ago" it is usually a cheap rhetorical trick to make it sound like they have offered proof of their true-church claim, when in fact they have only restated it in a different way.

I think when our people do it what they're usually actually saying is "our Church looks more like it did 2000 years ago than yours." And I've never heard of a Catholic using it against the Orthodox (Protestants yes, but not the Orthodox). But maybe I need to get out more.
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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2013, 06:42:19 AM »

Cheesy

But in all seriousness, I'm a Catholic, and not Eastern Orthodox, because I believe in the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, the filioque, etc. Though, if I ever had a change of heart on those things, I would join you all. Cheesy

Sorry, but we have a pretty elite thing going on right now, we wouldn't want to risk contamination. But have you considered Eastern Catholicism? Wink (Peter J will love that recommendation)



But seriously, to be perfectly honest my feelings are a bit mixed. Not that I can see anything wrong with the recommendation in and of itself; but when you look at the whole picture -- EOs recommending to LCs to try ECism, EOs blasting ECs for our Latinizations, and even a few EOs saying that you're not really Eastern unless you're Orthodox -- sometimes you wonder where it's all going to end up.
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2013, 09:35:50 AM »

Church evolves and grows and changes according to the need of it;s body like the body of each us do.
Oh and one thing. I don't see any of the early church fathers to be us are now catholics or their monks.
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@Wandi_Star
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2013, 02:08:51 PM »

Hi all,ive always considered Orthodoxy to be the original, hence the oldest, denomination of Christianity. The I've spoken to one Catholic and he said that it is actually Catholism that was the 1st Church and denomination and then a Church had split off from then and formed Orthodoxy...is it right? I still think the Orthodoxy the original Christian belief. 

What is your knowledge on this,please.

What your friend told you is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Smiley

However what I recommend is that you get well acquainted with the writings of the early church fathers and formulate an opinion for your self. An internet forum is NOT the place to find an answer to such an important question.
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« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2013, 04:23:11 PM »

Guys the Pope left from the True church not the rest of Christianity. They are in a way the same old. Yet Roman Catholic is not what it was centuries ago. It has changed since then. Around the 6th century changes began taking place but they weren't spread until around the 9th century. So we can tell that the West Church is not the same as the Roman Catholic.
If you know what I mean.
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God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.
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