Topic: God seeking His own Glory

[ironsiderodger]

So my buddy who knows I lean heavily Orthodox on most issues calls me up and tells me something he heard in a sermon Monday just didn't seem right after some thought; it was a good sermon, motivating, and then the pastor mentions how "Everything God does is for His own glory"; which is usually followed by a massive guilt trip that protestants use in order to whip them into shape to placate an angry God (they would never outright say that of course). Anyhow, I often remember this being a big issue- God is jealous for His own glory, but now as I look back this kind of thinking seems to present a needy God who apparently isn't secure enough in who He is so that He must create beings to give Himself reassurance that all is well and that God really is as great as He thinks He is. This is the gist of what I shared with Him, saying God is love, and that "love does not seek its own"; which thankfully because of our Bible Studies (and yes I use the Orthodox study Bible), our group- of which he is part- was predisposed to anyway. But is there actually something to God doing stuff for His own glory? Obviously He will get the Glory, but I always thought that was a natural reaction, rather than a sought out goal. In Protestantism we are taught we are made "to glorify God"- this for many at an early age, so it is very ingrained. Am I missing something?

[mabsoota]

sounds like extreme calvinism.
try searching the threads on calvin for more information.

[IoanC]

God does not seek His own glory at all; this is a very perverted way of understanding God. It is true that all things that God does work for His glory, but that's because He is holy. However, speaking of glory, we have to understand that God holds creation in very high regard and treats them like royalty, seeing them even as something that He is not -- He glorifies them, He serves them, as Christ said that He came to serve us, and that the one who is more advanced must serve the others. However, creation must remember to return God's love and serve Him, and not forget that they are meant to worship God and not keep it all for themselves as did the demons who saw themselves as above God.

[Nikolaos Greek]

I was wondering that too but there is the thing.
First the proof Lord does not seek glory is how much humiliations He suffered and still He suffers from us.
Now God want us not to be unthankful and so for that He wants us to glorify Him. After all for thos or he would have created creatures with no free will or the angels are enough on the other way for his glorify. God knows He deserves everything yet He is humble. At his killers He didn't say '' You know I am God, glorify Me now or else I kill you.'' Instead towards His Father He said '' Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing.''

[Asteriktos]

I wish I had something to add here--but I don't    I hope there are more responses to come...

[Luka]

The Father and the Spirit glorify the Son, and the Son and the Spirit glorify the Father. I think that's all we can say about "God seeking His own glory". God does not seek His own, it is always Persons of the Most Holy Trinity loving each other. Instead of being in need of glorification from us, God glorifies us, bestows His glory on us, when we glorify Him.

[Eastern Mind]

The responses in this thread make a lot of sense to me.

[Sinful Hypocrite]

It is wrong to ridicule other Christians as though Orthodox Priests are perfect. IMHO
We should try to be more loving and forgiving towards our brothers .

I have been to many protestant services and always met Christians trying to do the best they can to glorify God . What does it profit us to find fault with them?

Last week in another thread someone gave this quote from an Orthodox Bishop about other denominations.

 "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."

[Nikolaos Greek]

Hm.. We know where the Church and where it is not. One church exists. Other "christians'' may are saying some things right. There may be heretics more moral than some Orthodox. Yet without God leading your steps you can easily take a totally wrong path. There is only one ship which is led by Christ. There are many led by men. May Christ come near and give gifts, make miracles and even if they are willing take some into the ship. Yet Christ won't be joined by a different ship.

[Sinful Hypocrite]

Yes  I agree, however we must look at the Gospels and see also that the ones who belonged to Jesus own temple in Nazareth denied his authority, and also the heads of the Jewish faith in Jerusalem also failed through their so called knowledge of the scriptures.

Not to disrespect the leaders today, but look with your heart with mercy towards others who are worshipping God and Jesus in other churches . Become as a child who does not know anything about doctrine and loves his protestant and catholic friends equally.

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Gunnarr]

God is jealous!!!

Is he also prideful?


I don't know, but it always is nice to read that one angry sermon, it gets your heart moving what is it called...

(googles around)

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God

imagine this preached in an orthdoox church 

I remember this sermon, when I first heard it back when I was, i dont know how old, i was in 8th grade

I remember this specific part always

We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down?

We are suspended at the end of a thread, us sinners, over the depths of hellfire and only by God's mercy does he not snip that single thread right now, but he can and he will for some for he is a WRATHFUL GOD

[Nikolaos Greek]

 
Really. God is jealous. If He was jealous he wouldn't let us be atheists or muslims or buhhdists.  He would have not created us with free will. Why you hate God?

[Gunnarr]

Really. God is jealous. If He was jealous he wouldn't let us be atheists or muslims or buhhdists.  He would have not created us with free will. Why you hate God?

Exodus

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[Nikolaos Greek]

I don't know if you get the real meaning. God is not jealous by the sense of anger and hate because we worship Him not but because we love not God and God ''hunts'' us to love Him not because He need us but because we need Him. If you know ancient greek instead of jealous it write ''ζηλωτής'' which is someone who tries to achieve soemthign He wants really much. And what God wants? To love Him because else... We are lost and He love us.

[Regnare]

The word "jealous" is derived from the word "zealous", as Nikolaos shows in the above post. That's what it means when it says God is jealous.
And God seeking His own glory is not necessarily for his own good. He doesn't need it, because of the relations of the Trinity (one of the most beautiful things about the doctrine of the Trinity). We do need God to be glorified, so that we remember to worship Him and not something else. It's either Him or an idol.

[Gunnarr]

I apologize, but I am not serious in my posts here

I mostly wrote protestant babble in my posts in this thread ;p I should probably put a disclaimer ;p

Hence why I said , perhaps God is prideful too ;p I mean that makes no sense since isn't pride a sin? but I was trying to think like this protestant pastor in the OP

[Nikolaos Greek]

God is not prideful.

[Knee V]

A mistake that is often made is that people put all of the Scriptures on equal footing with all the other Scriptures, read them and compare them to make sense of who they believe the Scriptures say that God is, and then interpret the Cross and Christ's works and words in light of the version of God that they have already made for themselves.

But what we need to do is to first look to Christ and the Cross in order to find the true meaning of the rest of the Scriptures. We understand the Scriptures in light of the Cross; we do not understand the Cross in light of the Scriptures.

And what the Cross shows us is a God who puts others ahead of Himself; a God who does not look out for His own self-interests; a God who is humble; a God who is self-emptying, not a God who is self-serving. It is only by seeing God this way first that we can begin to make sense of the rest of the Scriptures, particularly the Old Testament. And what the Apostles also teach us is that the ultimate purpose of our creation and salvation is that God would glorify man.

The Apostles understood what Christ taught about love, and they understood what it meant for God to be love. Look at 1 Corinthians 13 and substitute "love" with "God": God is patient; God is kind; God does not envy; God does not parade Himself; God is not puffed up; God does not behave rudely; God does not seek His own interests; etc.

The Reformed view of God is the polar opposite of the Apostolic understanding of God; the Reformed God is a God who hates; he is a God who is patient so long as he knows that he is getting what he wants; he is a God who is envious; He is a God who parades Himself; He is a God who is puffed up; He is a God who seeks only His own self interests; he is a God who is quickly provoked; he is a God who "thinks evil" of His creation and delights in its destruction, particularly of the eternal torture of the damned; he is a God who bears nothing that he doesn't like; etc. That is not the God that became incarnate and is revealed in Christ; that is not the God preached by the Apostles; that is not the God believed in by the saints.

[Eastern Mind]

A mistake that is often made is that people put all of the Scriptures on equal footing with all the other Scriptures, read them and compare them to make sense of who they believe the Scriptures say that God is, and then interpret the Cross and Christ's works and words in light of the version of God that they have already made for themselves.

But what we need to do is to first look to Christ and the Cross in order to find the true meaning of the rest of the Scriptures. We understand the Scriptures in light of the Cross; we do not understand the Cross in light of the Scriptures.

And what the Cross shows us is a God who puts others ahead of Himself; a God who does not look out for His own self-interests; a God who is humble; a God who is self-emptying, not a God who is self-serving. It is only by seeing God this way first that we can begin to make sense of the rest of the Scriptures, particularly the Old Testament. And what the Apostles also teach us is that the ultimate purpose of our creation and salvation is that God would glorify man.

The Apostles understood what Christ taught about love, and they understood what it meant for God to be love. Look at 1 Corinthians 13 and substitute "love" with "God": God is patient; God is kind; God does not envy; God does not parade Himself; God is not puffed up; God does not behave rudely; God does not seek His own interests; etc.

The Reformed view of God is the polar opposite of the Apostolic understanding of God; the Reformed God is a God who hates; he is a God who is patient so long as he knows that he is getting what he wants; he is a God who is envious; He is a God who parades Himself; He is a God who is puffed up; He is a God who seeks only His own self interests; he is a God who is quickly provoked; he is a God who "thinks evil" of His creation and delights in its destruction, particularly of the eternal torture of the damned; he is a God who bears nothing that he doesn't like; etc. That is not the God that became incarnate and is revealed in Christ; that is not the God preached by the Apostles; that is not the God believed in by the saints.

*hits invisible like button*

[xOrthodox4Christx]

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

To know everything God is, look at everything Christ is.

[Daedelus1138]

    I would add the caveat that not all Reformed Christians would have these ideas about God.  Like other Christians, traditionally the Reformed believed that God, being perfect, was above human passions like pride.  It is true that Calvinist emphasize God acting for his own glory, but God doesn't "need" glory in the sense a human being would.   Calvinists emphasize God's majesty, in the end, by emphasizing his glory.   True, it may not be up to the standards of the traditional catholic emphasis on God's love, but it's not the same as saying that God is insecure.