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Author Topic: Why Time is destined to go the way of Newsweek  (Read 1679 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: August 05, 2013, 10:24:24 AM »

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 11:03:55 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 11:09:20 AM »

I'm more curious on the Pope & Change article.
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 11:53:49 AM »

At least those of us who have children know who will decide what nursing home we will end our days in. Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 01:54:45 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 01:56:09 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
Or they could become less self-absorbed.  That would probably be the better option.
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 01:58:13 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
Or they could become less self-absorbed.  That would probably be the better option.

Let's suppose they can't seem to do so. Should they have children as an experiment on the off chance that they change after becoming parents? Seems like a cruel thing to do if it doesn't work out.
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 02:07:34 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
Or they could become less self-absorbed.  That would probably be the better option.

Let's suppose they can't seem to do so. Should they have children as an experiment on the off chance that they change after becoming parents? Seems like a cruel thing to do if it doesn't work out.
I do not believe that God expects us to become sinless before procreating.  Being less self-absorbed is like being more humble or less angry.  It is something that always must be actively worked on. If you look at it as something that may or may not "work out", it isn't going to "work out".  Successful athletes don't just throw a ball around casually and hope that it "works out" come game time.  They concentrate on tuning their skills by using specific drills and patterns to get rid of the bad habits.

Note that I am saying all this from a pretty hypocritical position, because I don't work on myself to the level that I should either.  Sad
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 02:09:35 PM »

Some people shouldn't be parents. Period. I know, because I'm one of them.
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
Or they could become less self-absorbed.  That would probably be the better option.

Let's suppose they can't seem to do so. Should they have children as an experiment on the off chance that they change after becoming parents? Seems like a cruel thing to do if it doesn't work out.

Those whom you think would make "good" parents often make horrible, cruel mistakes and turn out to be lousy parents.  Those whom you think would make "bad" parents often come out of themselves and surprise the heck out of everybody by becoming excellent parents. 



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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 02:14:31 PM »

Some people shouldn't be parents. Period. I know, because I'm one of them.

You're right, some "shouldn't".  Unfortunately, there's no test or measure or known gene or whatever by which those people who will be good parents or bad parents can be identified as such before they become parents. 

I'm a parent, too.  I made some huge mistakes that I and my kid will have to live with and deal with somehow.  Someone once said that the whole of the spiritual life is how you deal with what you've been dealt.  This probably applies to all aspects of life.
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 02:15:55 PM »

Some people shouldn't be parents. Period. I know, because I'm one of them.
I have never met you so I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.  I will say, I have met many people who I would not have entrusted my dog to that after a period of adjustment, became wonderful loving parents.  I don't think anyone is trapped into the "bad parent" or "good parent" category for life.  People make mistakes, but if they are willing to learn from them and work at being a better person through the grace of God, they can change.  Otherwise, what is the point of this whole God and religion thing?
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 02:19:03 PM »

Some people shouldn't be parents. Period. I know, because I'm one of them.
I have never met you so I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.  I will say, I have met many people who I would not have entrusted my dog to that after a period of adjustment, became wonderful loving parents.  I don't think anyone is trapped into the "bad parent" or "good parent" category for life.  People make mistakes, but if they are willing to learn from them and work at being a better person through the grace of God, they can change.  Otherwise, what is the point of this whole God and religion thing?

This is a question I ask myself several times daily.  Every once in a while, I get a hint at an answer. Cool
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 02:20:53 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.

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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2013, 02:26:43 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.



Wherever did you get that idea from?  The article (which I haven't read and won't) or just the cover of it and somebody's comment?
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 02:45:23 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.



Wherever did you get that idea from?  The article (which I haven't read and won't) or just the cover of it and somebody's comment?

Whether or not Schultz's comment is relevant to the Time article or any of the comments in this thread, what he said in blue above is certainly an attitude many people with children have toward people who don't.
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 02:52:26 PM »

Just to clarify, because I don't want to have offended anyone* with my posts, I did not mean to imply that people who didn't have or didn't want children were self-absorbed, but only that people who recognized this fault in themselves should seriously consider whether they should have children.


*Well, if I offend people who think the main or sole purpose of marriage is procreation, I'm ok with that. Just a tiny bit of offense though.
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2013, 02:55:30 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.



Wherever did you get that idea from?  The article (which I haven't read and won't) or just the cover of it and somebody's comment?

Whether or not Schultz's comment is relevant to the Time article or any of the comments in this thread, what he said in blue above is certainly an attitude many people with children have toward people who don't.

Yes, I know it is.  My wife, who was unable to have children, is painfully aware of it.  Unfortunately, this attitude is one we've come across amongst both Catholic and Orthodox "Christians" as well as other people. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 03:10:05 PM »

I think the main purpose of marriage is as an icon of Christ's love for the Church.  I think that a married couple who willingly chooses not to have children in order to live one's life in a more self-focused manner is sin.  If you refrain from having children for reasons other than that such as health issues, concern over the global impact of increased population, or some other legitimate reason, I don't think that is sin.  Ultimately though, that is between God and that couple, so it really isn't my business if their choice is sinful or not.  I still think though, that anyone can be a good parent provided they are willing to put the time and effort in to it.

If I have offended anyone in this thread, I humbly offer this cookie as a symbol of my regret.

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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2013, 03:23:41 PM »

You seriously think people are choosing not to have children Isa? What nonsense.

With crushing student loan debt who can afford children?

People are having children late in life because of a depressed economy and personal debt.

Hey this country has created a lot of envy and greed, thanks mostly to capitalism, and we really shouldn't be surprised at the developments nor our change in "values".

The family doesn't exist, hasn't for some time.
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2013, 03:28:39 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.



Wherever did you get that idea from?  The article (which I haven't read and won't) or just the cover of it and somebody's comment?

What Mor said, and it's not just a matter of religion.  Secularists and my supposed co-religionists love to look down on those who either choose not to have children for whatever reason or look upon those who physically can't with such pity that it often borders on disdain.  As I'm sure J Michael and his wife know, trying to explain to people who rudely ask you why you don't have children is more than just tiresome, it can be downright dehumanizing, especially when it comes from fellow Christians who think that one MUST have children in order to be worth anything in God's eyes.  

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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2013, 03:30:08 PM »

You seriously think people are choosing not to have children Isa? What nonsense.

With crushing student loan debt who can afford children?

People are having children late in life because of a depressed economy and personal debt.

Hey this country has created a lot of envy and greed, thanks mostly to capitalism, and we really shouldn't be surprised at the developments nor our change in "values".

The family doesn't exist, hasn't for some time.


Interesting statement.  If you wouldn't mind, would you first define "family" in the context of your statement and then elaborate on why you say it doesn't exist and hasn't for some time?  Thanks! Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2013, 03:34:52 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.



Wherever did you get that idea from?  The article (which I haven't read and won't) or just the cover of it and somebody's comment?

What Mor said, and it's not just a matter of religion.  Secularists and my supposed co-religionists love to look down on those who either choose not to have children for whatever reason or look upon those who physically can't with such pity that it often borders on disdain.  As I'm sure J Michael and his wife know, trying to explain to people who rudely ask you why you don't have children is more than just tiresome, it can be downright dehumanizing, especially when it comes from fellow Christians who think that one MUST have children in order to be worth anything in God's eyes.  



Okay.  That's what I thought, just wanted to be clear  Wink.  And you're absolutely right, coming from fellow "Christians" it gets beyond tiresome, to crushingly hurtful, to dehumanizing.
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2013, 04:28:15 PM »

If you refrain from having children for reasons other than that such as health issues, (a misguided) concern over the global impact of increased population, or some other legitimate reason, I don't think that is sin.  Ultimately though, that is between God and that couple, so it really isn't my business if their choice is sinful or not.  I still think though, that anyone can be a good parent provided they are willing to put the time and effort in to it.
We almost agree  Cheesy!
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2013, 04:34:16 PM »

At least those of us who have children know who will decide what nursing home we will end our days in. Cheesy
One hopes.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2013, 04:38:59 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
Children aren't a cure all for self-absorption.  In fact, they might result from it-many have children to live vicariously through them.  The hostility towards having children and the promotion of self-absorption (usually disguised as "self-fullfillment"), however, stand as definitions symptoms of a society that is sick.  And those who embrace it, like Newsweek and time, will catch the terminal illness.
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2013, 04:41:29 PM »

Some people are self-absorbed. These people may very well be bad parents. Such people should seriously consider whether it would be best for them to not have children. That's my personal experience, anyway.
Or they could become less self-absorbed.  That would probably be the better option.

Let's suppose they can't seem to do so. Should they have children as an experiment on the off chance that they change after becoming parents? Seems like a cruel thing to do if it doesn't work out.
They'll no way to know: I'll know those who were sour on parenthood become perfect parents, and perfect parents who went sour.

The first step to solving a problem is admitting there is a problem.
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 05:02:46 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.
Time, like Newsweek, long stopped reported news and started trying to form it.  It is for ill, and Time is embracing it.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.
The monks and nuns whose picture I posted don't have children either.  I don't think that they are less of a person, or even less a Christian.

The choice of a couple laying on the beach as a symbol of the article is emblematic of the orientation it is trying to promote.  The same mentality who would praise said couple for hooking up for vacation on a break from getting the most toys but would mock those who "had it all" and chose to enter a monastery.  The downright hostility not only to themselves having children, but others having them as well, a contempt for a sub-human category of breeders who are less than persons.

Devoting a life to self-absorption damages both the self and society.
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 05:05:22 PM »

Just to clarify, because I don't want to have offended anyone* with my posts, I did not mean to imply that people who didn't have or didn't want children were self-absorbed, but only that people who recognized this fault in themselves should seriously consider whether they should have children.


*Well, if I offend people who think the main or sole purpose of marriage is procreation, I'm ok with that. Just a tiny bit of offense though.
they should first seriously consider whether they should get married.
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 05:16:00 PM »

You seriously think people are choosing not to have children Isa? What nonsense.
I've known plenty of such people.  It is nonsense that I know them all.
With crushing student loan debt who can afford children?
for one, the likes of JesusisIam.
People are having children late in life because of a depressed economy and personal debt.
Would such people be lying on the beach?
Hey this country has created a lot of envy and greed, thanks mostly to capitalism, and we really shouldn't be surprised at the developments nor our change in "values".
Capitalism made possible a lot; its undoing has come from taking it out of the moral context that makes it possible.
The family doesn't exist, hasn't for some time.
Despite the propaganda, it still exists.  But that doesn' make news.

Despite his many faults, Hussain and the first family exemplify it, despite the goofy family situation he came out of.
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 05:21:46 PM »

Wait, so Time is going to go the way of Newsweek because it writes an article relevant to what is going on in the United States at present?  For good or ill, many people think like this.

But then again, I don't have children so I suppose I should just shut my mouth because I'm less of a person and even less of a Christian.

Got it.



Wherever did you get that idea from?  The article (which I haven't read and won't) or just the cover of it and somebody's comment?

What Mor said, and it's not just a matter of religion.  Secularists and my supposed co-religionists love to look down on those who either choose not to have children for whatever reason or look upon those who physically can't with such pity that it often borders on disdain.  As I'm sure J Michael and his wife know, trying to explain to people who rudely ask you why you don't have children is more than just tiresome, it can be downright dehumanizing, especially when it comes from fellow Christians who think that one MUST have children in order to be worth anything in God's eyes.  



Okay.  That's what I thought, just wanted to be clear  Wink.  And you're absolutely right, coming from fellow "Christians" it gets beyond tiresome, to crushingly hurtful, to dehumanizing.
I've often been shocked by those who not only take it upon themselves to go into such questions in casual conversation, but demanding some detail into the matter.  That of course, goes for those who take it upon themselves to comment on someone having too many children.
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 11:56:46 PM »

Forgot one more thing:

Quote from: vamrat
The old Middle Class are pretty much made up of the working poor these days.  They make $30-40k/year or less while working 40 hours a week and must have two incomes if children are going to be cared for, or make do with extreme levels of frugality that put them below our standard of living.

There's one of your problems, a two income economy.

I got something that's a bit more important than saving the Family, which is more of a symptom than a cause.
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2013, 11:56:46 PM »

Would such people be lying on the beach?
You CAN do better than that Isa, I know you can.

Because a stupid magazine cover speaks for all of those who cannot bear children because of socioeconomic issues. I can tell you right now, I am 25 years old about to be 26. And honestly until I'm 100% debt free and in better economic situation I will think about having kids.

But I refuse to have kids now with the money I'm making because I want my children to have the life that I had when I was growing up. And with an economic uncertainty that increasingly looks grim, it further pushes me away from having kids.

I'm not the one who put a price tag on children.
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2013, 11:56:46 PM »

for one, the likes of JesusisIam.
What on earth are you talking about? YiM doesn't even live in the world, let a lone has student loan debt.

You sure you are reading what I'm writing because your responses are so off the mark.
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« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2013, 01:55:42 AM »

I think the main purpose of marriage is as an icon of Christ's love for the Church.  I think that a married couple who willingly chooses not to have children in order to live one's life in a more self-focused manner is sin.  If you refrain from having children for reasons other than that such as health issues, concern over the global impact of increased population, or some other legitimate reason, I don't think that is sin.  Ultimately though, that is between God and that couple, so it really isn't my business if their choice is sinful or not.  I still think though, that anyone can be a good parent provided they are willing to put the time and effort in to it.

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you tempt us with sinful delights

you are a demon!!!

Shudder, tremble, be afraid, depart, be utterly destroyed, be banished! Thee who fell from heaven and together with thee all evil spirits: every evil spirit of lust, the spirit of evil, a day and nocturnal spirit, a noonday and evening spirit, a midnight spirit, an imaginative spirit, an encountering spirit, either of the dry land or of the water, or one in a forest, or among the reeds, or in trenches, or in a road or a crossroad, in lakes, or streams, in houses, or one sprinkling in the baths and chambers, or one altering the mind of man. Depart swiftly from this creature of the Creator Christ our God! And be gone from the servant of God TheTrisagion, from his mind, from his soul, from his heart, from his reins, from his senses, from all his members, that he might become whole and sound and free, knowing God, his own Master and Creator of all things, He Who gathers together those who have gone astray and Who gives them the seal of salvation through the rebirth and restoration of divine Baptism, so that he may be counted worthy of His immaculate, heavenly and awesome Mysteries and be united to His true fold, dwelling in a place of pasture and nourished on the waters of repose, guided pastorally and safely by the staff of the Cross unto the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. For unto Him belong all glory, honor, adoration and majesty together with Thy beginningless Father and His all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2013, 02:41:02 AM »

you tempt us with sinful delights

you are a demon!!!

Shudder, tremble, be afraid, depart, be utterly destroyed, be banished! Thee who fell from heaven and together with thee all evil spirits...etc.

Really?  You think it's funny to use an exorcism as a joke? 

Next time, just stop.   
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« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2013, 03:19:33 AM »

you tempt us with sinful delights

you are a demon!!!

Shudder, tremble, be afraid, depart, be utterly destroyed, be banished! Thee who fell from heaven and together with thee all evil spirits...etc.

Really?  You think it's funny to use an exorcism as a joke? 

Next time, just stop.   

you will have to exorcise me
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« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2013, 07:01:40 AM »

you tempt us with sinful delights

you are a demon!!!

Shudder, tremble, be afraid, depart, be utterly destroyed, be banished! Thee who fell from heaven and together with thee all evil spirits...etc.

Really?  You think it's funny to use an exorcism as a joke? 

Next time, just stop.   

you will have to exorcise me

Okay.

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« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2013, 07:25:28 AM »

Would such people be lying on the beach?
You CAN do better than that Isa, I know you can.

Because a stupid magazine cover speaks for all of those who cannot bear children because of socioeconomic issues. I can tell you right now, I am 25 years old about to be 26. And honestly until I'm 100% debt free and in better economic situation I will think about having kids.

But I refuse to have kids now with the money I'm making because I want my children to have the life that I had when I was growing up. And with an economic uncertainty that increasingly looks grim, it further pushes me away from having kids.

I'm not the one who put a price tag on children.

You'll never be debt free. If it's not a student loan, it will be a mortgage. Not to mention that, even if you manage to become debt free and start a family, there is zero guarantee that you will remain so.
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« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2013, 09:52:18 AM »

Would such people be lying on the beach?
You CAN do better than that Isa, I know you can.

Because a stupid magazine cover speaks for all of those who cannot bear children because of socioeconomic issues. I can tell you right now, I am 25 years old about to be 26. And honestly until I'm 100% debt free and in better economic situation I will think about having kids.

But I refuse to have kids now with the money I'm making because I want my children to have the life that I had when I was growing up. And with an economic uncertainty that increasingly looks grim, it further pushes me away from having kids.

I'm not the one who put a price tag on children.

You'll never be debt free. If it's not a student loan, it will be a mortgage. Not to mention that, even if you manage to become debt free and start a family, there is zero guarantee that you will remain so.

It is a question of magnitude.  $100k in debt on a $30/year salary is unhealthy, especially if the debt was used to buy something useless like 100,000 tacos at taco bell or a college education that got you a job paying $30k/year.

$100k in debt for a house where you live is a different matter altogether.  You can utilize this everyday.  It is a necessity.  In addition, you can use it to make income.  You can let friends or family live with you, collect some rent money from them and use it to reduce your debt/living costs. 

As I said, it is a question of magnitude.  Some debt is choice.  I did not have the "college experience".  I lived at home, drove a Ford Aerostar with no power steering, worked 30+ hours/week, and did not go to parties or even have a girlfriend.  No college debt.  Currently, I drive a 9-year old Ford Taurus, live in a rented room, and build chain mail in the living room while the GF watches TV.  Oh, and I have $400 in debt.  It is possible but requires frugality.  I also am unmarried and have no children, and probably will not in the near future, if at all depending on the state of the economy.  The possibility of debt plays a major role in this decision.
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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »

for one, the likes of JesusisIam.
What on earth are you talking about? YiM doesn't even live in the world, let a lone has student loan debt.

You sure you are reading what I'm writing because your responses are so off the mark.

When you quoted me saying extreme frugality was how you successfully take care of children in the working-middle-class, I specifically had YIM in mind.  Most people cannot live like that.  Personally, I find the guy inspiring, but most people I am inspired by I doubt I will ever imitate, nor hold anyone else up to their standard.
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2013, 12:15:02 PM »

I understand it, but find it terribly unfortunate that people would, in a sense, put a price on parenthood to the point of avoiding having children for fear of going into debt.  This is even more unfortunate, imho, if the decision is made in the context of an already existing loving Christian marriage.

We live in a society that values "stuff" and "wealth" and material "success" far more than other things and most of us who call ourselves Christians and try to live up to the ideal of Christ are infected with those "values" to a greater or lesser degree.  ITSM that the greater the degree of our infection, the more difficult it becomes to order and structure our lives in a manner that doesn't involve debt and creates in us a fear of, amongst other things, bringing children into the world because of the economic impact it would have on us.  In this country, whether we recognize it or not, many of us have the ability to choose to be more frugal, to live lives less focused on or dedicated to Mammon.  Most, I think, choose not to do so, or to do so minimally.  As poor as many are in this country (and more are becoming more so, I think), a great many of those who are poor by American standards are still far better off than 100's of millions of other people around the world who really have no "choice" BUT to be as frugal as possible.  And yet, 100's of millions of others, for a variety of reasons and not just economics, STILL bring children into the world.  I might add that this is probably done quite willingly, though I certainly have no proof of that other than the knowledge that most people beyond a certain age know that sexual intercourse often results in pregnancy and that most people engage in it quite willingly and voluntarily.

So, when someone says "I can't afford to have kids", especially if they're in a loving married relationship, I tend sometimes to be somewhat skeptical.  The word "sacrifice" comes to mind.  There's also a difference between "can't afford" and "won't afford".
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« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2013, 01:42:32 PM »

I understand it, but find it terribly unfortunate that people would, in a sense, put a price on parenthood to the point of avoiding having children for fear of going into debt.  This is even more unfortunate, imho, if the decision is made in the context of an already existing loving Christian marriage.

We live in a society that values "stuff" and "wealth" and material "success" far more than other things and most of us who call ourselves Christians and try to live up to the ideal of Christ are infected with those "values" to a greater or lesser degree.  ITSM that the greater the degree of our infection, the more difficult it becomes to order and structure our lives in a manner that doesn't involve debt and creates in us a fear of, amongst other things, bringing children into the world because of the economic impact it would have on us.  In this country, whether we recognize it or not, many of us have the ability to choose to be more frugal, to live lives less focused on or dedicated to Mammon.  Most, I think, choose not to do so, or to do so minimally.  As poor as many are in this country (and more are becoming more so, I think), a great many of those who are poor by American standards are still far better off than 100's of millions of other people around the world who really have no "choice" BUT to be as frugal as possible.  And yet, 100's of millions of others, for a variety of reasons and not just economics, STILL bring children into the world.  I might add that this is probably done quite willingly, though I certainly have no proof of that other than the knowledge that most people beyond a certain age know that sexual intercourse often results in pregnancy and that most people engage in it quite willingly and voluntarily.

So, when someone says "I can't afford to have kids", especially if they're in a loving married relationship, I tend sometimes to be somewhat skeptical.  The word "sacrifice" comes to mind.  There's also a difference between "can't afford" and "won't afford".

In my situation there is the fact that we are unmarried, so not having children is probably a good thing for the time being.   Wink  After marriage, I will let her have the final decision as I will not be carrying it.  (Note, this does not extend to abortion.  She knows my stance and that abortion would be the end of us having any non-court-ordered dealings with one another.  I mean it is her decision as to whether any concerted effort is put into initiating pregnancy.)  She is 50/50.  We do have a niece, and I think that if we were not to have children then helping in supporting her and her mother would be a given.    

That said, I can understand the position of those who have kids and do not approve of those who do not.  The work-averse classes are more than capable of breeding and do so, spawning a new generation of parasites.  I think that every working person should aspire to adding their genetic input to society and most importantly, raising them to be useful people.  Unfortunately, with the limp-wristed advice being given to the modern 'parent', many children who come from what should be a good family are ruined by the malaise of modernism.  They are in essence, retarded in all but diagnosis.  They are undisciplined, overly medicated, and are not taught proper masculine/feminine virtues.  In light of this, when such people refuse to procreate or to murder them whilst in the womb, at least it cuts down on the number of future clones of this worthless person.  The horseapple doesn't roll far from the bunghole.
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« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2013, 01:57:05 PM »

I understand it, but find it terribly unfortunate that people would, in a sense, put a price on parenthood to the point of avoiding having children for fear of going into debt.  This is even more unfortunate, imho, if the decision is made in the context of an already existing loving Christian marriage.

We live in a society that values "stuff" and "wealth" and material "success" far more than other things and most of us who call ourselves Christians and try to live up to the ideal of Christ are infected with those "values" to a greater or lesser degree.  ITSM that the greater the degree of our infection, the more difficult it becomes to order and structure our lives in a manner that doesn't involve debt and creates in us a fear of, amongst other things, bringing children into the world because of the economic impact it would have on us.  In this country, whether we recognize it or not, many of us have the ability to choose to be more frugal, to live lives less focused on or dedicated to Mammon.  Most, I think, choose not to do so, or to do so minimally.  As poor as many are in this country (and more are becoming more so, I think), a great many of those who are poor by American standards are still far better off than 100's of millions of other people around the world who really have no "choice" BUT to be as frugal as possible.  And yet, 100's of millions of others, for a variety of reasons and not just economics, STILL bring children into the world.  I might add that this is probably done quite willingly, though I certainly have no proof of that other than the knowledge that most people beyond a certain age know that sexual intercourse often results in pregnancy and that most people engage in it quite willingly and voluntarily.

So, when someone says "I can't afford to have kids", especially if they're in a loving married relationship, I tend sometimes to be somewhat skeptical.  The word "sacrifice" comes to mind.  There's also a difference between "can't afford" and "won't afford".

In my situation there is the fact that we are unmarried, so not having children is probably a good thing for the time being.   Wink  After marriage, I will let her have the final decision as I will not be carrying it.  (Note, this does not extend to abortion.  She knows my stance and that abortion would be the end of us having any non-court-ordered dealings with one another.  I mean it is her decision as to whether any concerted effort is put into initiating pregnancy.)  She is 50/50.  We do have a niece, and I think that if we were not to have children then helping in supporting her and her mother would be a given.    

That said, I can understand the position of those who have kids and do not approve of those who do not.  The work-averse classes are more than capable of breeding and do so, spawning a new generation of parasites.  I think that every working person should aspire to adding their genetic input to society and most importantly, raising them to be useful people.  Unfortunately, with the limp-wristed advice being given to the modern 'parent', many children who come from what should be a good family are ruined by the malaise of modernism.  They are in essence, retarded in all but diagnosis.  They are undisciplined, overly medicated, and are not taught proper masculine/feminine virtues.  In light of this, when such people refuse to procreate or to murder them whilst in the womb, at least it cuts down on the number of future clones of this worthless person.  The horseapple doesn't roll far from the bunghole.

LOL!  Well, that's certainly one way to look at it!! Cool Cool
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« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2013, 01:37:38 AM »

You'll never be debt free.
Um yeah you can. I will be in 16 months.

Quote
If it's not a student loan, it will be a mortgage.
Why the either/or? Read above.

Quote
Not to mention that, even if you manage to become debt free and start a family, there is zero guarantee that you will remain so.
Why zero guarantee? How do you know I won't continue to be debt free with a family?

And really it's not about having debt, it's about how much debt one is carrying that impacts decisions. And really the idea that young men/women carrying an exorbitant amount of debt because of an education just so they have zero guarantee of a job is certainly alarming.

But we have made a worthless bachelor's degree necessary for most jobs that don't even require it.

And the cost of college keeps going up and up and up, while the wages remain stagnant when those jobs after college become available.

Comparing a mortgage to a student loan is incompatible.
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