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Author Topic: Dancing Bishops....  (Read 2836 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 04, 2013, 02:42:30 PM »

New Liturgical custom now in the RCC?

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dancing+bishops+Brazil&mid=8943986718CD8E63D6458943986718CD8E63D645&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 03:13:19 PM »

Doesn't look like mass.
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 03:40:00 PM »

From Fr. John Whiteford's blog:

Unfortunate Trends in the Roman Catholic Church
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 03:47:57 PM »

The Roman Catholics do seem to go the way of the Anglicans. I really do feel sorry for the Traditionalists.
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 04:04:30 PM »


Is this the proper conduct to be shown by a leader of their flock?  Im confused, are bishops supposed to act this way? At least I don't have to be embarrassed by this......not any more.  I can see maybe one or two but a whole flock?
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 04:11:38 PM »

I'm sorry for triumphalism but every time I hear or see something like this I'm happy I didn't convert to Catholicism. I love my irrelevant and outdated Church.
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 04:13:43 PM »


Is this the proper conduct to be shown by a leader of their flock?  Im confused, are bishops supposed to act this way? At least I don't have to be embarrassed by this......not any more.  I can see maybe one or two but a whole flock?
You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 04:16:54 PM »

You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
I agree.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 04:21:14 PM »

You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
I agree.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 04:37:23 PM »

Not that I care about dancing bishops.

And really apropos of nothing, but the RCC has been rotting in its core for a long time now.
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 05:32:49 PM »

It's pretty silly, but as others have pointed out, it's not a service and it doesn't pretend to be one.
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 05:56:41 PM »

This part of the Papal Mass

WYD

Reminds me of this from my childhood

Sunshine Day

The Roman Catholic Church seems to be trapped in a 1970s nightmare.
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 06:05:53 PM »

Hmmm. And when our Pope comes to visit, we sing "Pi Ehmot Gar" instead of dancing around like idiots.

I think I'll stick with Orthodoxy, though I do sincerely feel bad for the many I have known who are in union with Rome who are sick of garbage such as in that video. Embarrassed
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 06:19:28 PM »

This part of the Papal Mass

WYD

Reminds me of this from my childhood

Sunshine Day

The Roman Catholic Church seems to be trapped in a 1970s nightmare.

...Oh. That's...  Cry
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 06:32:37 PM »

I'm sorry for triumphalism but ... I love my irrelevant and outdated Church.

It's not just you.
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 06:50:55 PM »

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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 07:37:18 PM »

This part of the Papal Mass

WYD

Reminds me of this from my childhood

Sunshine Day

The Roman Catholic Church seems to be trapped in a 1970s nightmare.
Ok, now yes. This is offensive.
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 07:50:23 PM »

I'm surprised so many bishops went along with this. I imagine there were some who refused to do this, but it doesn't seem like their influence had much of an impact.

I mean, most of them are old men. They're about as hip as a hip replacement.
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2013, 10:16:32 PM »

As a "Latin-rite" Catholic I find this all very sad and disheartening. This is one of the reasons I had initiated my inquiries here regarding a move to the Orthodox, which I decided was not the way for me to proceed in my own attempt to find the divine.

Indeed, my church seems stuck in some 1970's guitar strumming hippie love fest.  The current Pope seems to have very real contempt for those of his flock who love tradition, whom he incorrectly describes as "palagians" ( he should study his heresies before spouting off).  He seems to belittle and laugh at us on a regular basis.  I am not a sedecavantist.  That said, it seems to me that the Pope would be quite happy if the traditionalist would all just go away, join the SSPX, and leave him and the church alone to become some sort of hippy-dippy "social justice" NGO.

HE IS A JESUIT.

Quite frankly I am surprised that anyone is surprised by this. Add on top of this the US bishops confusion of socialism with Christian charity, aka "Liberation Theology" and it makes my head hurt.

I am really tired of it all.  The Neocats are welcomed into the church, the traditionalist derided.  Why?
What do they fear from 1500 years of liturgical tradition?  I don't understand, but then I am not an enlightened leader of the church.

All I can do at this point is to try to not loose my temper, and my soul along with it.  I remain faithful to the teachings of the Church.  It's leaders come and go. As long as I can access the sacraments, my soul is mine to loose, not the Pope's.

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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 11:14:33 PM »

Not our concern.

Of course it's lame, but it's no goat sacrifice to Crom Cruach or telling a joke or other such devilish practices.
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 11:36:33 PM »

I know enough about Catholicism to know this does not appear to be part of a Mass. They are in cassocks and  are not vested.

That being said, they do look silly - but happy. Yes, this looks like a Mel Brooks imagined scene with Richard Simmons leading "Simon Says." Old guys trying to look "cool" usually look silly and they do look silly, but cut them some slack here.

Also though, it is amazing how many young people were there and how genuine their love for God and THEIR CHURCH (not ours) seemed to be. Perhaps, we are a bit jealous?

My Bishop spent the last month at our diocesan summer camp sessions and really got to know the young people. I'm sure some of you would "tut tut" at the photos of him wearing a Pirates baseball camp while he enjoyed the dizzy bat race and laughing while the campers played with water balloons. He doesn't look serious, or stern or like he enjoyed sucking lemons.   http://acrod.org/multimedia/photos/?setID=72157634914737082

There are plenty of liturgical issues with which to take issue with the Roman Catholics, but this doesn't seem to be one of them...
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2013, 12:02:35 AM »

There are plenty of liturgical issues with which to take issue with the Roman Catholics, but this doesn't seem to be one of them...
Quite so, though at this point I think the discussions we see here of liturgical abuses in non-Orthodox communions are fueled more by a desire to feel good about ourselves than anything else.
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2013, 12:05:14 AM »

With a possible Pan-Orthodox council happening at some point in the future, we should be careful not to pay for our tongue. I have the impression that more than one hierarch and influential lay people feel an admiration for Vatican II.
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »

This thread reminds me a lot of this video. Or does the bishops dancing do that? I'm not sure...
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2013, 12:08:56 AM »

There are plenty of liturgical issues with which to take issue with the Roman Catholics, but this doesn't seem to be one of them...
Quite so, though at this point I think the discussions we see here of liturgical abuses in non-Orthodox communions are fueled more by a desire to feel good about ourselves than anything else.


Basically.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2013, 12:26:15 AM »

My Bishop spent the last month at our diocesan summer camp sessions and really got to know the young people. I'm sure some of you would "tut tut" at the photos of him wearing a Pirates baseball camp...

NO CASSOCK?!   Shocked

Quote
...while he enjoyed the dizzy bat race and laughing while the campers played with water balloons. He doesn't look serious, or stern or like he enjoyed sucking lemons.   http://acrod.org/multimedia/photos/?setID=72157634914737082

Obviously he's not a holy man.  That should've troubled you guys immediately, but not one person in those photos had the look of dispassion on his face.  Sad.   
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2013, 12:29:49 AM »

Quite so, though at this point I think the discussions we see here of liturgical abuses in non-Orthodox communions are fueled more by a desire to feel good about ourselves than anything else.


Correction.  We don't need to feel good about ourselves, we are good--Nicaea I says so.  When we remind the non-Orthodox of how bad they are, we are simply evangelising (cf. Mt. 28.16-20).  It's really not so difficult, I don't know why some people have to complicate it.   
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 12:46:39 AM »

Quite so, though at this point I think the discussions we see here of liturgical abuses in non-Orthodox communions are fueled more by a desire to feel good about ourselves than anything else.


Correction.  We don't need to feel good about ourselves, we are good--Nicaea I says so.  When we remind the non-Orthodox of how bad they are, we are simply evangelising (cf. Mt. 28.16-20).  It's really not so difficult, I don't know why some people have to complicate it.   

There's that rock solid logic that I've been looking for!

My Bishop spent the last month at our diocesan summer camp sessions and really got to know the young people. I'm sure some of you would "tut tut" at the photos of him wearing a Pirates baseball camp...

NO CASSOCK?!   Shocked

Is it wrong to think that Christ might have worn a baseball cap and a short-sleeve shirt if he walked the Earth today? Yes, of course it's wrong. Tongue
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 01:00:21 AM »

. . . The current Pope seems to have very real contempt for those of his flock who love tradition, whom he incorrectly describes as "palagians" ( he should study his heresies before spouting off).  He seems to belittle and laugh at us on a regular basis. 
I am not quite sure why he calls those attached to the older rites of the Roman Church Pelagians, because that heresy really had nothing to do with particular rites; instead, it concerned the false notion that grace was not necessary for salvation.
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 01:07:36 AM »

I know enough about Catholicism to know this does not appear to be part of a Mass. They are in cassocks and  are not vested.
You are correct, the video linked by the original poster shows the rehearsal for the flash mob that was done at the start of the Papal Mass. Nevertheless, I must say that having sat through the entire video of the Papal Mass itself was an ordeal. WYD masses are often pretty strange.
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 01:12:56 AM »

Lord have mercy.

The Roman Catholic Mass now looks like a picnic or a circus; it is not a Divine Liturgy at all.
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 01:14:50 AM »

Is it wrong to think that Christ might have worn a baseball cap and a short-sleeve shirt if he walked the Earth today? Yes, of course it's wrong. Tongue

Every time I imagine what our Lord might look like in "modern" clothing, my mind comes up with something like this:



No thanks, first century robes work just fine.  
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2013, 01:17:14 AM »

The first link is to the WYD opening Mass in 2011, while the second link is to the closing Mass at the just concluded 2013 WYD. I personally think that the first is the more reverent of the two Masses:

Opening Mass WYD 2011

Closing Mass WYD 2013
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2013, 01:19:24 AM »


Praesul (< prae + salio) = dancer leading procession; prelate/bishop/Church dignitary.
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2013, 01:22:00 AM »

Is it wrong to think that Christ might have worn a baseball cap and a short-sleeve shirt if he walked the Earth today? Yes, of course it's wrong. Tongue

Every time I imagine what our Lord might look like in "modern" clothing, my mind comes up with something like this:



No thanks, first century robes work just fine.  

Oh come on, get with the times! That look is a least 30 years old by now.
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2013, 01:49:58 AM »

I don't look even that good, so your admonition robs me of the little hope I had.  Thanks. 
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2013, 08:07:46 AM »

Is it wrong to think that Christ might have worn a baseball cap and a short-sleeve shirt if he walked the Earth today? Yes, of course it's wrong. Tongue

Every time I imagine what our Lord might look like in "modern" clothing, my mind comes up with something like this:



No thanks, first century robes work just fine.  

Yanni ?
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2013, 08:18:38 AM »

The first link is to the WYD opening Mass in 2011, while the second link is to the closing Mass at the just concluded 2013 WYD. I personally think that the first is the more reverent of the two Masses:

Opening Mass WYD 2011

Closing Mass WYD 2013

I don't know about you but when I see these gatherings I have to wonder about the solemnity of it all.  It reminds me of a rock concert.  Im sometimes disturbed by its enormity.  I mean, as an Orthodox Christian, I have a problem with believing this gathering is more to show how many we can gather into one spot then there being a holy moment. I see a lot, a lot, of it being more a festival moment than a Holy Mass.  I would be more at home with a prayer service such as Vespers, or Matins.  Another annoying thought: How many received communion in these gatherings who are not properly prepared or worse yet not even Catholic?   I'm not convinced that this sort of thing is a good thing for the Catholic church in general other than to say " Hey see how many people we can gather together for the media"...  I am probably very cynical but that's just me. Does anyone get my drift?
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2013, 08:29:31 AM »

The Roman Catholic Church seems to be trapped in a 1970s nightmare.

Exactly what I was thinking. People often accuse them of being trapped in the Middle Ages... it might be better to say they are trapped by the middle aged.
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2013, 08:39:45 AM »

You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
I agree.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

Yes, he is a "liberal" when it comes to washing the feet of infidels and not judging "gay" people but all of the sudden Mr. Humility becomes a raging intolerant dictator whne it comes to the Tradtionalism and the TLM.

I've had about enough of this phony Jesuit already, they should've kept Benedict around even if he is a walking corpse the Church would be far better off than another touchy-feely, modernist who has nothing but resentment for the first 1950 yrs of the Church. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2013, 09:17:26 AM »

You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
I agree.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

Yes, he is a "liberal" when it comes to washing the feet of infidels and not judging "gay" people but all of the sudden Mr. Humility becomes a raging intolerant dictator whne it comes to the Tradtionalism and the TLM.

I've had about enough of this phony Jesuit already, they should've kept Benedict around even if he is a walking corpse the Church would be far better off than another touchy-feely, modernist who has nothing but resentment for the first 1950 yrs of the Church. Roll Eyes

Weren't the Jesuits at one time considered the chief defenders of the Catholic Faith?  How did the Jesuits go from Trads to Libs and when did this happen?
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« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2013, 10:11:13 AM »

You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
I agree.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

Yes, he is a "liberal" when it comes to washing the feet of infidels and not judging "gay" people but all of the sudden Mr. Humility becomes a raging intolerant dictator whne it comes to the Tradtionalism and the TLM.

I've had about enough of this phony Jesuit already, they should've kept Benedict around even if he is a walking corpse the Church would be far better off than another touchy-feely, modernist who has nothing but resentment for the first 1950 yrs of the Church. Roll Eyes

Weren't the Jesuits at one time considered the chief defenders of the Catholic Faith?  How did the Jesuits go from Trads to Libs and when did this happen?
Right around the sixities it seems with the commie infiltration of the West as well as the Church.

But you're right, the Jesuits used to be the conservative, militant wing of the Vatican and staunch defender of the Church.
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« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2013, 10:13:16 AM »

Hmmm. And when our Pope comes to visit, we sing "Pi Ehmot Gar" instead of dancing around like idiots.

I think I'll stick with Orthodoxy, though I do sincerely feel bad for the many I have known who are in union with Rome who are sick of garbage such as in that video. Embarrassed


I don't feel too sorry for them.  The road is open for them to come home which is what I did.

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« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2013, 10:20:37 AM »

The first link is to the WYD opening Mass in 2011, while the second link is to the closing Mass at the just concluded 2013 WYD. I personally think that the first is the more reverent of the two Masses:

Opening Mass WYD 2011

Closing Mass WYD 2013

I don't know about you but when I see these gatherings I have to wonder about the solemnity of it all.  It reminds me of a rock concert.  Im sometimes disturbed by its enormity.  I mean, as an Orthodox Christian, I have a problem with believing this gathering is more to show how many we can gather into one spot then there being a holy moment. I see a lot, a lot, of it being more a festival moment than a Holy Mass.  I would be more at home with a prayer service such as Vespers, or Matins.  Another annoying thought: How many received communion in these gatherings who are not properly prepared or worse yet not even Catholic?   I'm not convinced that this sort of thing is a good thing for the Catholic church in general other than to say " Hey see how many people we can gather together for the media"...  I am probably very cynical but that's just me. Does anyone get my drift?


Nothing wrong with your drift.  It is dead on and I get it.  (-:   

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« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2013, 11:57:36 AM »


You're right.  It did look more like a festival, than a holy service.

I know enough about Catholicism to know this does not appear to be part of a Mass. They are in cassocks and  are not vested.

That being said, they do look silly - but happy. Yes, this looks like a Mel Brooks imagined scene with Richard Simmons leading "Simon Says." Old guys trying to look "cool" usually look silly and they do look silly, but cut them some slack here.

Also though, it is amazing how many young people were there and how genuine their love for God and THEIR CHURCH (not ours) seemed to be. Perhaps, we are a bit jealous?

My Bishop spent the last month at our diocesan summer camp sessions and really got to know the young people. I'm sure some of you would "tut tut" at the photos of him wearing a Pirates baseball camp while he enjoyed the dizzy bat race and laughing while the campers played with water balloons. He doesn't look serious, or stern or like he enjoyed sucking lemons.   http://acrod.org/multimedia/photos/?setID=72157634914737082

There are plenty of liturgical issues with which to take issue with the Roman Catholics, but this doesn't seem to be one of them...

Looks like a fun time was had by all at camp!  THIS was camp, however, and not a service....

I think it's great when our clergy and hierarchs interact with the youth.  The kids are more likely to "relate" with someone who takes time to interact with them, at their level.

There's a time for solemnity and there's a time for frivolity.  Both times are filled with joy, only differently.
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« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2013, 12:01:48 PM »

More ranting about a church you're not even in.

Doesn't surprise me. Nephi belittles Roman Catholics so much, I wonder if he has anything better to do with his time.

Probably not.
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« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 12:09:50 PM »

Quite so, though at this point I think the discussions we see here of liturgical abuses in non-Orthodox communions are fueled more by a desire to feel good about ourselves than anything else.


Correction. 
I don't take correction from schematics. I mean, do you even have a beard?

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« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2013, 01:10:46 PM »

Yanni ?

Yes, Yanni...seated "UPON THIS ROCK".  Tongue
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« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2013, 01:12:55 PM »

I don't take correction from schematics. I mean, do you even have a beard?

Wretched dyophysmurf!!
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« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2013, 01:14:34 PM »

Doesn't surprise me. Nephi belittles Roman Catholics so much, I wonder if he has anything better to do with his time.

Probably not.

He hasn't once posted in this thread.  Maybe he found something to do.  Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2013, 01:16:57 PM »

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.
To me Pope Benedict always appeared to be interested in the liturgy, seeing it as the apex of the Christian life; while Pope Francis really seems bored by the liturgy, and comes off as more interested in giving vague sound bites to the media that can be interpreted in any number of ways (orthodox or non-orthodox).
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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2013, 04:47:31 AM »

This orthodox priest is breaking canon against being in presence of dances of a wedding!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLmv_Zo5Sl8

(Sorry, had to post dancing orthodox as well, rather than simply only bashing catholics)
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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2013, 07:15:08 AM »

I already miss Pope Benedict.
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« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2013, 10:59:07 AM »

Heres a more traditional, large outdoor celebration from this summer from the Church of Rome's family.

Kudos to our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters....no dancing bishops or liturgical innovation here in Muchachevo, Transcarpathian Ukraine....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDwAGqKxbAw&list=PLqayRjG8IR2FPlaSTv1HBrbf82qjdAXqj&index=2 

The visiting Roman bishop looks and is vested like a 'old fashioned Catholic ' Bishop and doesn't seem like the type to dance.

Despite centuries of separation from the us, these folks have struggled to remain true to their traditions as they understand them. S'bohom and many years.

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« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2013, 11:18:32 AM »

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.
To me Pope Benedict always appeared to be interested in the liturgy, seeing it as the apex of the Christian life; while Pope Francis really seems bored by the liturgy, and comes off as more interested in giving vague sound bites to the media that can be interpreted in any number of ways (orthodox or non-orthodox).
yeah, that's a fair assessment.... Undecided
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« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2013, 11:34:58 AM »

I already miss Pope Benedict.

Maybe we can book them a spot on some dance show.....?
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« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2013, 11:37:17 AM »

Doesn't surprise me. Nephi belittles Roman Catholics so much, I wonder if he has anything better to do with his time.

Probably not.

He hasn't once posted in this thread.  Maybe he found something to do.  Smiley

I'm just so anti-Catholic that I don't even need to post to belittle RC's. Cool
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« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2013, 12:13:57 PM »

Hmmm. And when our Pope comes to visit, we sing "Pi Ehmot Gar" instead of dancing around like idiots.

I think I'll stick with Orthodoxy, though I do sincerely feel bad for the many I have known who are in union with Rome who are sick of garbage such as in that video. Embarrassed


I don't feel too sorry for them.  The road is open for them to come home which is what I did.

Viking

Certainly. I only meant that there are many serious people who are nonetheless in union with Rome who cringe at all this nonsense. Having been there myself, I know first hand how infuriating it can be.
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« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2013, 12:23:30 PM »

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.
To me Pope Benedict always appeared to be interested in the liturgy, seeing it as the apex of the Christian life; while Pope Francis really seems bored by the liturgy, and comes off as more interested in giving vague sound bites to the media that can be interpreted in any number of ways (orthodox or non-orthodox).
yeah, that's a fair assessment.... Undecided
I cannot help but sit back and watch how self-proclaimed traditionalists are horrified to hear almost any statement from the new Pope while the Neo-Caths are more than willing to rush to his aid and show how what he says is perfectly in line with previous Catholic teaching (which, I might add, it usually is, though he has a tendency to say things in a way that can lend itself to reinterpretation). I think the tendency to defend or detract is in part because for traditionalists see the papacy as an important part of the charism of protection the Catholic Church supposedly carries, while Neo-Caths — bolstered by bad apologetics — see the papacy as the whole of the charism. While a bad pope for traditionalists can mean a hard road ahead, for those whose entire faith hinges on the papacy, it’s the end of the world if they can’t figure out where he falls in the spectrum Catholic belief.

(This is somewhat complicated by the fact that, as the decades have passed since the second Vatican council, Pope Francis represents what is the de facto living tradition of much of the RCC. For the majority of those younger than 40, the current situation is the one in which they were raised.)

Looking from a distance, I guess the perspective I like the best is akin to the line John B. often uses — “he’s only the Pope” and “hunker down for a few years.” If you really believe in the Catholic faith, you’ll ride it out.  Until modern times with constant media coverage, the Pope was a man whose day-to-day actions meant very little in the lives of the faithful.
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« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »

the priest at the Catholic where I attend said many times, leading up to the Pope's election something akin to: "We pray for wisdom for the college of cardinals, but also realize that the faith is lived here in the parish and in our daily lives, no matter who is pope."
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« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2013, 03:00:00 PM »

Sometimes I think these years we're living in will be the first time in history that will record via machines what has happened one or two times in the history of the Roman Church:

they will change the meaning of some key aspect of dogma and doctrine important for "staying relevant", claiming it is what it meant all along, proof being that this new use brings more faithful, enforces unity etc, while separating itself from real keepers of tradition and, at the same time, claiming it is them who left the Church.

It's clear this is happening wih Liturgy, with Mariology, with attitude toward social issues. The most notable change though, was mentioned here as expressed by Pope Benedict and Pope Francis: it's a matter of emphasis that is very important. It's not that one of them denies either the Liturgy or social activity. But it's a trend that also exists in Orthodox circles, that some people see in the asketic and sacramental life of the Church the Christian life's very heart, while others see it in charity toward the neighbor and in social work.

It's a dilemma already solved by Christ Himself of course. Both Martha and Mary are right, one serving God with activity and the other with contemplation, but Mary's got the best part.  Our age and time though, with all its emphasys on "change the world" issues is very "Martha". Even in Orthodoxy we hear now and then complaints about our "marian" emphasis on "mysticism". But that emphasis is given by Christ Himself. If any hierarch, orthodox or heterodox, changes the emphasis to Martha, that is a change in Christ's teaching.
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« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2013, 03:24:01 PM »


I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.
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« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2013, 04:28:24 PM »



HE IS A JESUIT.


 

Ok, here's a Jesuit joke:

Father Dominic's parish was having a festival in which a raffle was being held for a Jaguar.  He bought a raffle ticket and decided to ask for help from the cloistered nuns at a nearby convent.  "Sister Immaculata, do you know what a Jaguar is?", he asked. "Is it a big cat?", she asked. "No, a sports car, could you say a Novena for me to win one?"  " oh, no!", replied Sister Immaculata, " I can't pray for you to win a car. But I will pray for any sick relatives you might have.  "  So Father Dom goes to a nearby Jesuit University to ask Father Ted for the same favor. "Father Ted" he asked, " do you know what a Jaguar is?"  "Sure do! A really cool sports car" replied Father Ted enthusiastically.  " great!  Well, could you say a novena for me to win one? ". Puzzled, the Jesuit replied, "sure, but what's a Novena??? "
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« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2013, 04:42:54 PM »

Father Dominic's parish was having a festival in which a raffle was being held for a Jaguar.  He bought a raffle ticket and decided to ask for help from the cloistered nuns at a nearby convent.  "Sister Immaculata, do you know what a Jaguar is?", he asked. "Is it a big cat?", she asked. "No, a sports car, could you say a Novena for me to win one?"  " oh, no!", replied Sister Immaculata, " I can't pray for you to win a car. But I will pray for any sick relatives you might have.  "  So Father Dom goes to a nearby Jesuit University to ask Father Ted for the same favor. "Father Ted" he asked, " do you know what a Jaguar is?"  "Sure do! A really cool sports car" replied Father Ted enthusiastically.  " great!  Well, could you say a novena for me to win one? ". Puzzled, the Jesuit replied, "sure, but what's a Novena??? "

My uncle, who is a priest, won a mercedes in a lottery. True story.
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« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2013, 04:43:47 PM »

Well, in the interest of fairness, I need to post this odd note: http://byztex.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-redemption-of-bathsheba-before.html?showComment=1375822084293#c2624241498578972279&m=1

It appears that even in a beautiful and venerable Byzantine Catholic Church here in the states, they are not immune from strange quasi-ritualistic events.  (They could pick up a clue on proper decorum from their old country counterparts.)

I realize this was Andy Warhola' s home parish (Andy Warhol) but.... I don't know how things work in the BCC. Could the pastor decide this on his own or would he need a blessing from Metropolitan William?

I imagine the parish old timers at Rus'ka Dolina (nickname of St.Johns Church) were not amused. I could see a choral concert of religious themed music, even a Warhol retrospective in the vestibule if properly catalogued and curated, but this? No way. Too bad the Orthodox supporters there lost their lawsuit decades ago....

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« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2013, 07:45:26 PM »


You're right.  It did look more like a festival, than a holy service.

I know enough about Catholicism to know this does not appear to be part of a Mass. They are in cassocks and  are not vested.

That being said, they do look silly - but happy. Yes, this looks like a Mel Brooks imagined scene with Richard Simmons leading "Simon Says." Old guys trying to look "cool" usually look silly and they do look silly, but cut them some slack here.

Also though, it is amazing how many young people were there and how genuine their love for God and THEIR CHURCH (not ours) seemed to be. Perhaps, we are a bit jealous?

My Bishop spent the last month at our diocesan summer camp sessions and really got to know the young people. I'm sure some of you would "tut tut" at the photos of him wearing a Pirates baseball camp while he enjoyed the dizzy bat race and laughing while the campers played with water balloons. He doesn't look serious, or stern or like he enjoyed sucking lemons.   http://acrod.org/multimedia/photos/?setID=72157634914737082

There are plenty of liturgical issues with which to take issue with the Roman Catholics, but this doesn't seem to be one of them...

Looks like a fun time was had by all at camp!  THIS was camp, however, and not a service....

I think it's great when our clergy and hierarchs interact with the youth.  The kids are more likely to "relate" with someone who takes time to interact with them, at their level.

There's a time for solemnity and there's a time for frivolity.  Both times are filled with joy, only differently.


I attended some of those Masses when I was a Catholic.
It was more like a circus or a festival than a Holy Service.
One cannot be called to repentance with such diversions.

When I started to attend the Divine Liturgy and became Orthodox, wow what a difference.

My husband told me that because all his attention was focused during the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, he needed to take a nap afterwards. I felt the same. In fact, almost all my Orthodox friends needed to take a nap on Sunday -- a peaceful time indeed where we smelled the incense and listened once again to the angels singing.
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« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2013, 12:53:26 PM »

You are right. Bishops shouldn't dance.  Roll Eyes
I agree.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

Yes, he is a "liberal" when it comes to washing the feet of infidels and not judging "gay" people but all of the sudden Mr. Humility becomes a raging intolerant dictator whne it comes to the Tradtionalism and the TLM.

I've had about enough of this phony Jesuit already, they should've kept Benedict around even if he is a walking corpse the Church would be far better off than another touchy-feely, modernist who has nothing but resentment for the first 1950 yrs of the Church. Roll Eyes

Weren't the Jesuits at one time considered the chief defenders of the Catholic Faith?  How did the Jesuits go from Trads to Libs and when did this happen?

when they started to become educated beyond usefulness.
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« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2013, 01:12:41 PM »

My take on Catholicism from an outsider to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that it just seems too Protestant.

I mean they make new things up everyday, they talk about Unity and how "we're all the same" even though they have a little Magisterial document Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus they seem to forget about. And the spontaneous manner of worship in their services mirrors that of a Protestant Church.

I mean, they just kind of pick what they like and sing those hymns. Orthodoxy is very ordered, it's the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and that's it. Maybe a few hymns here and there depending on the Feast day of X Saint or something but it isn't taking stuff at random and putting it together. Anyway, that's the experience I had at  Mass.

It was a Novus Ordo Mass because it's the most mainstream in Catholicism. I could have gone Tridentine or Byzantine, but those are the minority expressions of Catholicism and I wasn't going to see what "little pockets" of Catholicism were like but what the whole Church's expression of the faith was.

The Divine Liturgy was not comparable, although, the Divine Liturgy I was experiencing was probably not at it's best. But with only 1-2 million parishioners in the country, I guess it's bound to happen.
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« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2013, 01:44:06 PM »

I mean they make new things up everyday, they talk about Unity and how "we're all the same" even though they have a little Magisterial document Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus they seem to forget about. And the spontaneous manner of worship in their services mirrors that of a Protestant Church.

They have a lot of documents, I'll give you that, but I don't recall one called Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, though there is a doctrine by that name which they still retain.  If you read their other documents, you'll see that their perspective is a little more complicated than "we're all the same".

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I mean, they just kind of pick what they like and sing those hymns. Orthodoxy is very ordered, it's the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and that's it.

No.  It's ordered, but it's not "Chrysostom or Death". 

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Maybe a few hymns here and there depending on the Feast day of X Saint or something but it isn't taking stuff at random and putting it together. Anyway, that's the experience I had at  Mass.

The dominance of the hymn sandwich in modern RCism is not proper to the Roman Liturgy.  What is proper to the Roman Liturgy is the Proper, and that is not any less ordered than our own Liturgies.   

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It was a Novus Ordo Mass because it's the most mainstream in Catholicism. I could have gone Tridentine or Byzantine, but those are the minority expressions of Catholicism and I wasn't going to see what "little pockets" of Catholicism were like but what the whole Church's expression of the faith was.

You did it wrong. 

Even if you didn't feel the need to check out Eastern Catholicism to get a sense of "the whole Church's expression of the faith", I don't understand how you can seriously be aware of the "Tridentine" expression of Catholicism and not check it out because it's a "minority expression" of Catholicism.  Only fifty years ago, that was the majority expression of Catholicism (in many places in the world it was the only expression of Catholicism), and it was ostensibly reform of this expression that brought the Novus Ordo into being.  You can't really understand the Western tradition if you're basing it on the last fifty years.     

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The Divine Liturgy was not comparable, although, the Divine Liturgy I was experiencing was probably not at it's best. But with only 1-2 million parishioners in the country, I guess it's bound to happen.

That has nothing to do with anything unless you think that, outside of North America, every Orthodox parish Liturgy is done as majestically as when the Patriarch of Moscow serves.  It's not, and never has been.  The "majesty" is elsewhere.   
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« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2013, 01:56:18 PM »

You can't really understand the Western tradition if you're basing it on the last fifty years.     

That is Rome's problem in a nutshell, by and large.
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« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2013, 09:43:51 PM »


I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.
Again, I don't think this was a mass. None of the Bishops were vested for liturgy.
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« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2013, 10:25:28 PM »


I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.
Again, I don't think this was a mass. None of the Bishops were vested for liturgy.

Again, have you ever attended a Charismatic Convention at the Anaheim Convention Center? I attended at least five, and they are like a circus, let me tell you, with dancing girls, incense swirling, dancing deacons, hands clapping, music blaring from the loud speakers, guitars strumming, and drums and cymbals beating. The ones in the videos were mild in comparison with the ethnic Charismatic Masses with elaborate processionals with different costumes representing peoples from all over the world. My, Oh my.

Only one priest needs to be vested to celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass, the others would only wear a stole to concelebrate, and the bishops would usually stand at the side.
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« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2013, 10:28:15 PM »


I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.
Again, I don't think this was a mass. None of the Bishops were vested for liturgy.

Again, have you ever attended a Charismatic Convention at the Anaheim Convention Center? I attended at least five.
Only one priest needs to be vested to celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass, the others would only wear a stole, and the bishops would usually stand at the side.
Yes, I have been to one. I obviously don't approve. But in the pic above, none of the bishops were at the altar, so it seems that they were not at mass. No need to assume that they were at mass.
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« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2013, 10:35:32 PM »


Yes, I have been to one. I obviously don't approve. But in the pic above, none of the bishops were at the altar, so it seems that they were not at mass. No need to assume that they were at mass.

Only one! The bishops would sit on the sides while the priests concelebrated the Mass.

Again, have you ever witnessed an ethnic Charismatic Mass? The entrance procession could take as long as 30 to 60 minutes alone.
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« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2013, 10:42:02 PM »

One of my friends recently went to an ethnic Charismatic Mass in Orange County a few months ago.

The program said that there would be various ethnic dances preceding the Mass while they waited for the priests and bishops to vest. This part of the program lasted one hour and involved Native Americans dancing up the aisles dressed in various tribal dress and feathered headgear accompanied by drums. Other natives peoples were also present and also danced up the aisle: Samoans, Africans, etc.

Let me ask you, how does this prepare one to receive Christ the Lord. How can one be reflective, sober, and prayerful in the midst of all this dancing?
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« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2013, 08:27:08 AM »

These "dancing bishops" are the perfect example where the New Church seems to go out of their way to accomodate everyone, even to the point of looking foolish and defiling the liturgy itself.

Anything goes with these Norvus Ordo clowns.

Everything that is except Tradition.

Voris does a good job exposing them here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjavB51zQZ8
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« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2013, 08:42:03 AM »

One of my friends recently went to an ethnic Charismatic Mass in Orange County a few months ago.

The program said that there would be various ethnic dances preceding the Mass while they waited for the priests and bishops to vest. This part of the program lasted one hour and involved Native Americans dancing up the aisles dressed in various tribal dress and feathered headgear accompanied by drums. Other natives peoples were also present and also danced up the aisle: Samoans, Africans, etc.

Let me ask you, how does this prepare one to receive Christ the Lord. How can one be reflective, sober, and prayerful in the midst of all this dancing?

Did VATII open up a can of worms???
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« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2013, 08:43:30 AM »


Yes, I have been to one. I obviously don't approve. But in the pic above, none of the bishops were at the altar, so it seems that they were not at mass. No need to assume that they were at mass.

Only one! The bishops would sit on the sides while the priests concelebrated the Mass.

Again, have you ever witnessed an ethnic Charismatic Mass? The entrance procession could take as long as 30 to 60 minutes alone.

I guess you could qualify it as a good show.
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« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2013, 05:47:34 PM »

One of my friends recently went to an ethnic Charismatic Mass in Orange County a few months ago.

The program said that there would be various ethnic dances preceding the Mass while they waited for the priests and bishops to vest. This part of the program lasted one hour and involved Native Americans dancing up the aisles dressed in various tribal dress and feathered headgear accompanied by drums. Other natives peoples were also present and also danced up the aisle: Samoans, Africans, etc.

Let me ask you, how does this prepare one to receive Christ the Lord. How can one be reflective, sober, and prayerful in the midst of all this dancing?

Did VATII open up a can of worms???
yes, labeled "inculturation".  Roll Eyes
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