Author Topic: "Sacred" languages?  (Read 6911 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aedificare

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
"Sacred" languages?
« on: August 04, 2013, 09:40:22 AM »
I have three questions.

What's the purpose of "sacred" languages like Latin, Church Slavonic, Syraic, and Koine Greek?
I'm of the impression it would be ideal to do the services in the local languages, yet the Orthodox Church has plenty of holy languages that are used. (some more than others)


Is it beneficial for a person to pray in another language he does not understand?
This would include the sacred languages, or even someone learning a 2nd language and using prayer as a way to do that.

What about a person praying a prayer in their native language they do not understand?
For example a child, or even myself in some of the morning prayers.


I apologize for being a bother.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 09:47:14 AM by Aedificare »

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 10:58:52 AM »
There are no sacred languages or all languages are sacred.

(but everyone knows God, Theotokos, and Apostles spoke Church Slavonic with each other)
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 12:00:18 PM »
There are no sacred languages or all languages are sacred.

(but everyone knows God, Theotokos, and Apostles spoke Church Slavonic with each other)

But AFAIK Orthodoxy has customarily leaned towards old fashionel languages. While I agree that Norwegians should use Norwegian instead of Greek, Slavonic etc. a case can be made that they should use old fashioned Norwegian.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 12:02:52 PM »
There has never been a time when the Greek of the Liturgy wasn't old-fashioned. It wasn't even the vernacular in the fourth century.

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,654
  • Ευλογημένη Σαρακοστή
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 12:20:58 PM »
Quote
What's the purpose of "sacred" languages like Latin, Church Slavonic, Syriac, and Koine Greek?
I'm of the impression it would be ideal to do the services in the local languages, yet the Orthodox Church has plenty of holy languages that are used. (some more than others)

Koine Greek was the language of the New Testament.  The Liturgy at my Mission is mostly in English, although our priest does speak Byzantine Greek in one part plus he usually states the LORD's prayer in Byzantine Greek after we say it in English.  I can only guess we use it because it was the language of the Eastern Roman Empire and there are quite a few similarities with the pronunciation of Byzantine and modern Greek.  Plus the founders of our Mission are Greek, so I think our priest has most of our Liturgy in English because the majority of us speak English, but he throws in some Greek for the sake of the founders, plus I think he prefers Greek.  Latin increasingly was used in the Western Roman Empire during the time of the Church Fathers in the West when the Western Church Fathers were writing their theological works and translating Scripture.  Syriac was also used before and during the time of the Church Fathers, and Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.  I would also guess the languages are used because they are "dead languages," so they do not get modified.
   Whether it is beneficial or not to pray in a language one does not understand is hard to say.  I only know a handful of words in Greek, but sometimes I pray the Jesus prayer in Greek.  The Mrs., who is Catholic, likes to pray in Latin.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 12:32:16 PM »
Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 12:33:41 PM »
Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.

It was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 12:33:47 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 12:36:18 PM »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 12:51:52 PM »
Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.

It was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki.

Really? It wasn't anyhow artificial or old fashioned?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,015
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 03:04:41 PM »
But AFAIK Orthodoxy has customarily leaned towards old fashionel languages. While I agree that Norwegians should use Norwegian instead of Greek, Slavonic etc. a case can be made that they should use old fashioned Norwegian.

+1 Slavs, Greeks, Egyptians, Syriacs, Armenians, Georgians etc. are lucky because they have such sacred languages - they are able to understand them (just have to put some effort, but it's worthy of it) and the languages is not changing, and it has specifically created words and constructions and sounding to express Divinity and Orthodox theology. Other nations should use an old fashioned versions of their languages, maybe in some cases "borrow" some terms from sacred languages but change the sound more natural for them or create calques, like it was in the case of Church Slavonic regarding to Greek. Anyway, traduttore, traditore - there is always a risque to lose the full meaning of some expressions, and it's especially important in prayers and hymns that transmit to us the Orthodox theology. Modern languages, especially those which are not connected culturally with Orthodoxy, doesn't have many specific terms, e.g with Serbian there is a less problems because it has many borrowings from Church Slavonic and just a little changed the sound, but as for Polish... It's impossible to translate lots of our prayres and hymns, and today's translations often even change the meaning! And last but not least, they doesn't sound so beautifully as in Church Slavonic.

Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.

It was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki.

Really? It wasn't anyhow artificial or old fashioned?

It WAS different language from vernaculars used by Slavs, but they at this time they were able to understand vast majority of them - the biggest problem was use of specific theological terms, they have to learn them but as I said, some of them are calques, so in some way they could understand what's going on. At least that's was I told by some professors dealing with Church Slavonic and similar issues.

The main problem of the language of Liturgy is usually lack of our effort and concentration, and not enough knowledge of Bible and its hymnography - if the service is done even in vernacular, but we don't know some Bible stories (and some teaching of the Fathers) we will never understand all allusions and won't perceive the richness of e.g canons (which are probably my favourite form of hymns).
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 03:10:59 PM »
+1 Slavs, Greeks, Egyptians, Syriacs, Armenians, Georgians etc. are lucky because they have such sacred languages - they are able to understand them (just have to put some effort, but it's worthy of it) and the languages is not changing, and it has specifically created words and constructions and sounding to express Divinity and Orthodox theology.

Not really. Church Slavonic is being evolving continuously and have had several reforms. It's not the same like it was in IX century.

Quote
And last but not least, they doesn't sound so beautifully as in Church Slavonic.

I can't agree. Sometimes strange grammar, completely nonsensical syntax - these things  make me hear it not very pleasant
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,015
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 03:25:22 PM »
+1 Slavs, Greeks, Egyptians, Syriacs, Armenians, Georgians etc. are lucky because they have such sacred languages - they are able to understand them (just have to put some effort, but it's worthy of it) and the languages is not changing, and it has specifically created words and constructions and sounding to express Divinity and Orthodox theology.

Not really. Church Slavonic is being evolving continuously and have had several reforms. It's not the same like it was in IX century.

I know it was evolving, that's why we have Old Church Slavonic and Church Slavonic. Now I don't think it's changing, just some Russians combine to make Church Slavonic more Russian by replacing some words. It was also their case regarding the old rite, that there are some differences in some hymns, even in Paschal troparion.


And last but not least, they doesn't sound so beautifully as in Church Slavonic.

I can't agree. Sometimes strange grammar, completely nonsensical syntax - these things make me hear it not very pleasant

I agree in some cases it has strange grammar and sentence formation (especially synaxarions), but it's just to express the Greek from which it was translated. But if you put some effort, and read the text at home or listen to it carefully (I like listening to hymns at home and read them at the same time), it's slowly becoming easier. As with all church things, just put some effort, work. It's great satisfaction to understand lot of things after some time of learning the language.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Aedificare

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 03:34:41 PM »
But why not change the language of liturgy as the vernacular evolves?

Norwegians using Old Norse in our services sounds cool and all, but it also sounds very... Roman Catholic.
Understanding liturgy and bibles should be possible for all people, not just the educated.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 03:42:34 PM »
Norwegians using Old Norse in our services sounds cool and all, but it also sounds very... Roman Catholic.
Understanding liturgy and bibles should be possible for all people, not just the educated.

It's the traditional Christian approach regardless of denomination. It doesn't really necessitate any kind of education as people get used to old fashioned expressions fairly quickly.

IMO it is also the most obvious and natural approach to religion. Most people seem to like rituals even if they weren't that church-going normally.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 03:45:15 PM »
But why not change the language of liturgy as the vernacular evolves?

And update it every decade or so? No, thank you.

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 03:46:40 PM »
But if you put some effort, and read the text at home or listen to it carefully (I like listening to hymns at home and read them at the same time),

Why shall I do that? The church is for hymns.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 04:40:12 PM »
BTW what makes sc. "sacred languages" "sacred"?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2013, 04:55:36 PM »
BTW what makes sc. "sacred languages" "sacred"?

Putin.

Seriously speaking, nothing. No language is holier than other. However it could be that some languages are more useful than others.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,182
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but in All the East
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 05:07:04 PM »
Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.

It was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki.

Really? It wasn't anyhow artificial or old fashioned?

It was artificial in that it was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki, not Russians/Ukranians, etc.

Interesting topic.   I think most Apostolic churches have tended to favor a language differing from the vernacular (at least dialect).  How different seems to... differ though.

I'm not sure I buy the "sacred languages" bit, but the idea of hearing liturgies in informal, localized dialects certainly seems wrong on my gut feeling index.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 05:08:59 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 05:12:34 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

Because they are?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:12:45 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 05:12:50 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

Offline Orthodox11

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 05:15:50 PM »
It was artificial in that it was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki, not Russians/Ukranians, etc.

Also in the way in which it preserves certain grammatical features of the original Greek.

Ss. Cyril and Methodios gave the Slavs a translation they could comprehend, but the popular notion that they translated it into the vernacular is mistaken.

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 05:17:15 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

Because they are?

Bulgarians are related to Huns or Turks but no way to Slavs.

Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:24:25 PM by Michał Kalina »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 05:26:36 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.

Not really. Persians are not Arabs despite using Arabic script.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2013, 05:29:58 PM »
Bulgarians are a Turkic nation who moved to the are of modern Bulgaria in the late VIIth century. They are not Slavs.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline dzheremi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,417
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 05:38:57 PM »
This topic is interesting, if a bit silly. If the question is "Why do we have liturgical languages?", the answer is because people at one time spoke those languages natively and it has always been the practice of the Church to give people a liturgy that they can understand. If the question is then "So why do we keep these languages alive in the Church even though (most/all) people don't understand them anymore?", the answer is because they are now part of the patrimony of the Church, and as such are not to be completely discarded, as they are the languages of our Fathers, including hymnographers, iconographers, etc. and many others who helped make the "Slavic tradition", "Greek tradition", "Syriac tradition", etc. something that was able to be passed down in the first place. So it is right to keep them alive. Even in the switch from Greek to Coptic in the Church of Egypt, arguably completed in the days of St. Shenouda the Archmandrite if not before then, you can still notice many parts of the Coptic liturgy (including whole hymns) that are kept entirely in Greek. Funnily-pronounced Greek, but Greek just the same. And we keep Coptic with much the same thought in mind: We have this hymn in Coptic since forever ago, this expresses our theology perfectly, etc. It is one way of preserving what we have inherited. (And all our liturgical books, at least in the USA where I am) are trilingual, so it's not difficult to follow along once you get used to the structure of the service and its hymns.

Ideally and practically we use the liturgical language(s) and the common language of the country/region in the same services, so luckily there is no need to sacrifice either the missionary imperative nor the sense of timelessness or whatever people get out of the use of liturgical languages.

"Coptic" liturgy of St. Basil prayed in Italian by Padre Gabriel in the Church of St. Gregorio, Rome

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2013, 05:43:50 PM »
Russians are not Slavs, Bulgarians are not Slavs... I'm starting to believe that Slavs really don't exist at all. They are mythological creatures on par with unicorns and titans.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,542
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 05:48:15 PM »
I've always felt that the Church favours archaic language to emphasise its continuity over time.

Koine Greek is much more accessible to the modern ear than the Attic dialect that is taught generally as Classical Greek. It was even more accessible before the reform of the 70s that abolished katharevousa.

My parish is very mixed, and our priest is a Brit, so the services are entirely in English. The Bible translation used is based on the KJV and the hymns are arranged similarly (thee/thy/thine, inverted negatives, etc), but nobody seems to have trouble following.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ bookshelf ~ ugly writing ~ jukebox ~

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,842
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 05:49:10 PM »
With the Bulgarians, as well as with the russians and many other peoples, you have a small warrior class of a different ethnicity that imposes itself unto a larger mass of people (Slavs here) organizes them politicaly, eventually fuses with them but relinquishes them their name (Bulgarians or Rus' or Serb or Croatian, French etc) and some words etc.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Cognomen

  • Ungrateful Biped
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,182
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Wanderer, but in All the East
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2013, 06:03:02 PM »
It was artificial in that it was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki, not Russians/Ukranians, etc.

Also in the way in which it preserves certain grammatical features of the original Greek.

Ss. Cyril and Methodios gave the Slavs a translation they could comprehend, but the popular notion that they translated it into the vernacular is mistaken.

Agreed completely. But it was also more intelligible than simply keeping Greek.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2013, 07:26:18 PM »
Bulgarians are a Turkic nation who moved to the are of modern Bulgaria in the late VIIth century. They are not Slavs.
They are Slavs now, and have been for over a millenium.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2013, 07:28:10 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.

Not really. Persians are not Arabs despite using Arabic script.
The Arabic 'ajamii "foreigner" really means "Persian."  Persian tajiikii "foreigner" comes from the Arab tribe Tayy which lived on the border.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2013, 07:30:33 PM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

Because they are?

Bulgarians are related to Huns or Turks but no way to Slavs.

Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.
You could write Bulgarian in Arabic script, and it would still be Slavic.  Romanian didn't stop being Latin because it was written in Cyrillic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2013, 07:32:00 PM »
There are no sacred languages or all languages are sacred.

(but everyone knows God, Theotokos, and Apostles spoke Church Slavonic with each other)

But AFAIK Orthodoxy has customarily leaned towards old fashionel languages. While I agree that Norwegians should use Norwegian instead of Greek, Slavonic etc. a case can be made that they should use old fashioned Norwegian.
Riksmal?

Btw, amendments to their Constitution have to be written in Danish, and old fashioned Danish at that.

Btw, in general, using "old fashioned" or archaic language is an Eastern, not Western, trait.  It might make sense for Eastern Rite Norwegians, it would make no sense for WRO Norwegians.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 07:49:18 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2013, 07:47:08 PM »
I have three questions.

What's the purpose of "sacred" languages like Latin, Church Slavonic, Syraic, and Koine Greek?
I'm of the impression it would be ideal to do the services in the local languages, yet the Orthodox Church has plenty of holy languages that are used. (some more than others)
Much of it is just by default: the services are translated when the people convert, and it is easy to just continue on with it, although the language changes.  Same reason languages reforms are rarely taken.  In the case of the Slavs, it is not in Old Church Slavonic (i.e. the language of SS. Cyril and Methodius, which would be incomprehensible), but Church Slavonic, a recension brought more into line with East Slavic.  Some prefer it as using Russian, Ukrainian or Belarussian would be divissive (in their opinion).

See the example I gave above of amending the Norwegian Constitution.

Is it beneficial for a person to pray in another language he does not understand?
This would include the sacred languages, or even someone learning a 2nd language and using prayer as a way to do that.
No, no benefit to speak of.
What about a person praying a prayer in their native language they do not understand?
For example a child, or even myself in some of the morning prayers.
Depends, is it because the language is incomprehensible, or is it comprehensible, and the person just does not comprehend it.  Education answers the latter.

I apologize for being a bother.
No bother.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2013, 07:52:21 PM »
It was artificial in that it was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki, not Russians/Ukranians, etc.

Also in the way in which it preserves certain grammatical features of the original Greek.

Ss. Cyril and Methodios gave the Slavs a translation they could comprehend, but the popular notion that they translated it into the vernacular is mistaken.

Agreed completely. But it was also more intelligible than simply keeping Greek.
Any source/proof that the Old Church Slavonic language was anything but what the Slavs spoke?

Btw, adopting grammatical features in languages using a lot of translations isn't uncommon-one can see the same in spoken English.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 08:06:51 PM »
But AFAIK Orthodoxy has customarily leaned towards old fashionel languages. While I agree that Norwegians should use Norwegian instead of Greek, Slavonic etc. a case can be made that they should use old fashioned Norwegian.

+1 Slavs, Greeks, Egyptians, Syriacs, Armenians, Georgians etc. are lucky because they have such sacred languages - they are able to understand them (just have to put some effort, but it's worthy of it) and the languages is not changing, and it has specifically created words and constructions and sounding to express Divinity and Orthodox theology. Other nations should use an old fashioned versions of their languages, maybe in some cases "borrow" some terms from sacred languages but change the sound more natural for them or create calques, like it was in the case of Church Slavonic regarding to Greek. Anyway, traduttore, traditore - there is always a risque to lose the full meaning of some expressions, and it's especially important in prayers and hymns that transmit to us the Orthodox theology. Modern languages, especially those which are not connected culturally with Orthodoxy, doesn't have many specific terms, e.g with Serbian there is a less problems because it has many borrowings from Church Slavonic and just a little changed the sound, but as for Polish... It's impossible to translate lots of our prayres and hymns, and today's translations often even change the meaning! And last but not least, they doesn't sound so beautifully as in Church Slavonic.
Actually, I remember my (pleasant) surprise at how much Orthodox terminology was contained in the Great English-Polish, Polish-English Dictionary (Wielki słownik angielsko-polski, polsko-angielski).

If you can say it in Church Slavonic, you can say it in Polish (and English, and French, and Norwegian....).

If it isn't translated, it loses all meaning, IOW a complete betrayal.

Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.

It was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki.

Really? It wasn't anyhow artificial or old fashioned?

It WAS different language from vernaculars used by Slavs, but they at this time they were able to understand vast majority of them - the biggest problem was use of specific theological terms, they have to learn them but as I said, some of them are calques, so in some way they could understand what's going on. At least that's was I told by some professors dealing with Church Slavonic and similar issues.

The main problem of the language of Liturgy is usually lack of our effort and concentration, and not enough knowledge of Bible and its hymnography - if the service is done even in vernacular, but we don't know some Bible stories (and some teaching of the Fathers) we will never understand all allusions and won't perceive the richness of e.g canons (which are probably my favourite form of hymns).
problems of language do not help that.

Other than a koine, Old Church Slavonic did not differ from what the Slavs were speaking in the fields.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 08:07:23 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2013, 08:10:03 PM »
There has never been a time when the Greek of the Liturgy wasn't old-fashioned. It wasn't even the vernacular in the fourth century.
by that time the Atticists had completely taken over (there was an attempt to translate the Bible into Attic, i.e. out of Koine, in the 4th century).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2013, 08:27:41 PM »
But why not change the language of liturgy as the vernacular evolves?
Easier said that done.  Look at English spelling.
Norwegians using Old Norse in our services sounds cool and all, but it also sounds very... Roman Catholic.
Does someone use Old Norse in their services?  I don't think even the Åsatrufellesskapet Bifrost does that.
Understanding liturgy and bibles should be possible for all people, not just the educated.
Amen! (yes, I am aware of the irony of saying that in Hebrew).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2013, 08:29:02 PM »
But if you put some effort, and read the text at home or listen to it carefully (I like listening to hymns at home and read them at the same time),

Why shall I do that? The church is for hymns.
+1

I'm taking it that Slavonic is not seen as a compromise between Polish and Belarussian/Ukrainian.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2013, 08:31:13 PM »
Slavonic was used when Russia converted to the Orthodox Church over a thousand years ago.

Was it? I've thought it has never been exactly a vernacular language. Especially not in Russia/Rus.

It was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki.

Really? It wasn't anyhow artificial or old fashioned?

It was artificial in that it was the language of the Bulgarian Slavs around Thessaloniki, not Russians/Ukranians, etc.

Interesting topic.   I think most Apostolic churches have tended to favor a language differing from the vernacular (at least dialect).  How different seems to... differ though.

I'm not sure I buy the "sacred languages" bit, but the idea of hearing liturgies in informal, localized dialects certainly seems wrong on my gut feeling index.
Every standard language is an informal, localized dialect spoken by a central government with an army and a treasury trying to impress.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,880
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2013, 11:53:41 PM »
I have three questions.

What's the purpose of "sacred" languages like Latin, Church Slavonic, Syraic, and Koine Greek?
I'm of the impression it would be ideal to do the services in the local languages, yet the Orthodox Church has plenty of holy languages that are used. (some more than others)

Today's "holy" languages are yesterday's "languages".  There's nothing intrinsically holy about them.  If anyone regards them as "holy", I suppose it's because the liturgical texts were originally developed in those languages.  Every translation into another language is an approximation, it's never the same as the original, something always gets lost.  So for "the whole thing", including not just words but nuances, you'd really have to learn the original languages.  Since these languages aren't "living", their meaning basically has stayed the same over time even as other languages change, so they are "constant".  It is with these languages, moreover, that our music developed; in a lot of traditions, translation into the vernacular involves adapting the music--it's still not the original.  Depending on the situation, use of these languages in worship can unite in one voice people of different languages. 

So there are reasons for these "classical" languages, but I don't know if I'd put them in opposition to vernaculars.   

Quote
Is it beneficial for a person to pray in another language he does not understand?
This would include the sacred languages, or even someone learning a 2nd language and using prayer as a way to do that.

If you don't understand what you're praying, pray something you understand.  That said, if you are actually learning the language, I can see a benefit in saying at least some of the repeated prayers (e.g., Our Father) in the language being learned.  When you gain some proficiency, you might feel like the alternation of languages helps you concentrate.  Then again, you might not.  Just make sure you're praying.   

Quote
What about a person praying a prayer in their native language they do not understand?
For example a child, or even myself in some of the morning prayers.

See above.  :)
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,872
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2013, 12:43:27 AM »
Bulgarians are a Turkic nation who moved to the are of modern Bulgaria in the late VIIth century. They are not Slavs.
They are Slavs now, and have been for over a millenium.

Since they did not move to the areas controlled by the Byzantines, it's not true to say Slavs living around Thesalonika were "Bulgarians".
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2013, 01:46:07 AM »
Bulgarians are a Turkic nation who moved to the are of modern Bulgaria in the late VIIth century. They are not Slavs.
They are Slavs now, and have been for over a millenium.

Since they did not move to the areas controlled by the Byzantines, it's not true to say Slavs living around Thesalonika were "Bulgarians".
That's a different issue.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Gunnarr

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,109
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 01:49:03 AM »
Which language are the Seraphim singing Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus?

I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,880
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2013, 01:55:19 AM »
If they're singing "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus", then they're singing in Latin. 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2013, 05:54:54 AM »
There has never been a time when the Greek of the Liturgy wasn't old-fashioned. It wasn't even the vernacular in the fourth century.
by that time the Atticists had completely taken over

Completely is a bit much. The Liturgy still contains the word pantote, for example.

(there was an attempt to translate the Bible into Attic, i.e. out of Koine, in the 4th century).

It would have been a great improvement, for sure. Where can I read more about that attempt?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 06:06:05 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline ag_vn

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2013, 06:07:40 AM »
Bulgarians are a Turkic nation


No, they are not, this is just an old hypothesis. Bulgarians are Indo-Europeans, not Mongoloids. Modern historians favour the Iranian origin of the Bulgars.



Since they did not move to the areas controlled by the Byzantines, it's not true to say Slavs living around Thesalonika were "Bulgarians".
That's a different issue.

There is no issue, because Michal's statement is not true. Those Bulgarians who settled in Macedonia (north of Thessaloniki) in the second half of the 7th century were the Kuber Bulgarians.



« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 06:08:32 AM by ag_vn »

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,015
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2013, 06:59:56 AM »
But if you put some effort, and read the text at home or listen to it carefully (I like listening to hymns at home and read them at the same time),

Why shall I do that? The church is for hymns.

Well, at least that's my practice, really enriching my understanding of hymns, therefore theology too.

BTW what makes sc. "sacred languages" "sacred"?

As it was said here, there is no any language that could be called sacred. It's written in quotes, so I treat it just as an abbrevation of the thought. I thnik they have 2 main characteristics: they're not changing (or the are, but very little) and, most imporatant thing, they have been adapted for liturgical, sacred use.


Actually, I remember my (pleasant) surprise at how much Orthodox terminology was contained in the Great English-Polish, Polish-English Dictionary (Wielki słownik angielsko-polski, polsko-angielski).

If you can say it in Church Slavonic, you can say it in Polish (and English, and French, and Norwegian....).

If it isn't translated, it loses all meaning, IOW a complete betrayal.

Of course, Polish is in better situation than, let’s say, Aleut, because this language was “growing up” in Christian culture, so that’s obvious that it has lots of Christian terms, but not always specifically Orthodox as e.g Serbian.

There are plenty of important words that exist in Church Slavonic and Polish does not have any equivalent of it. But some of them, if just the particular person opens his/her mind, he/she can perceive “It’s logical and understandable ”, e.g. that’s the case with word “pokajanije” (expiate? Much more). It doesn’t exist in Polish, and Church Slavonic has rich meaning of it, but in Polish there is similar verbs like “kajać się”, “pokajał się” etc. with a bit similar meaning. But e.g. the word “Priczastie” –Eucharist, Communion, participate with extended meaning to each of these words (in Serbian it’s “Pričešće”, so sounds almost the same and means exactly the same, but it’s because Serbian has been being spoken by Orthodox people) is not understood by non Orthodox people and there is no any equivalent or word with similar sound in Polish. There are some examples for words. As for hymns, some of Paschal hymns, that are my favourite ones, can’t be translated to Polish without losing the full meaning, like Paschal Sticheras, some pieces of Paschal Canon etc. Such translations are good for personal use, but not for liturgical one.

I'm taking it that Slavonic is not seen as a compromise between Polish and Belarussian/Ukrainian.
I don’t treat it as a compromise at all. For me Church Slavonic is the liturgical language of all Slavs (including Bulgarians, who are Slavinised Turks or sth like that centuries ago). Anyway, it’s easier to translate Orthodox prayers to Ukrainian (don’t know what’s about Belarrussian, as it has various forms and as far I know it’s not so standarised) and I have some prayers and hymns in it – it’s the same case as Serbian, it’s culturally ingrown into Orthodoxy. However, still, Church Slavonic better express these prayers.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Luka

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • Faith: Catholic Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Constantinople
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2013, 09:53:05 AM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

Because they are?

Bulgarians are related to Huns or Turks but no way to Slavs.

Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.
You could write Bulgarian in Arabic script, and it would still be Slavic.  Romanian didn't stop being Latin because it was written in Cyrillic.
Romance, not Latin.

There are plenty of important words that exist in Church Slavonic and Polish does not have any equivalent of it. But some of them, if just the particular person opens his/her mind, he/she can perceive “It’s logical and understandable ”, e.g. that’s the case with word “pokajanije” (expiate? Much more). It doesn’t exist in Polish, and Church Slavonic has rich meaning of it, but in Polish there is similar verbs like “kajać się”, “pokajał się” etc. with a bit similar meaning. But e.g. the word “Priczastie” –Eucharist, Communion, participate with extended meaning to each of these words (in Serbian it’s “Pričešće”, so sounds almost the same and means exactly the same, but it’s because Serbian has been being spoken by Orthodox people) is not understood by non Orthodox people and there is no any equivalent or word with similar sound in Polish.
I think that borrowing some most common terms from Church Slavonic to Polish (maybe with small modification) is a nice option. At first it may sound awkward, but they're both still Slavic languages. Maybe that would mean creating some "Ecclesiastical Polish", but it's still better than streams of familiar yet unintelligible words in Slavonic.

And I think the language is sacred when it takes standarized form used in the Liturgy. That's like all liturgy - everyday simple gestures become the sacred service.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:04:09 AM by Luka »

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2013, 10:11:12 AM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

Because they are?

Bulgarians are related to Huns or Turks but no way to Slavs.

Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.
You could write Bulgarian in Arabic script, and it would still be Slavic.  Romanian didn't stop being Latin because it was written in Cyrillic.
Romance, not Latin.

, not
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:14:04 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,712
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2013, 10:17:09 AM »
Someone disagreeing with ialmisry about language, and someone other than ialmisry posting multiple maps. The world done gone crazy!
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »
Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

Because they are?

Bulgarians are related to Huns or Turks but no way to Slavs.

Why is everyone calling Bulgarians "Slavs"?

They speak a Slavic language.

With such a logic Mongolians are Slavs too since they write in Cyrillic.
You could write Bulgarian in Arabic script, and it would still be Slavic.  Romanian didn't stop being Latin because it was written in Cyrillic.
Romance, not Latin.
That assumes that Romance stopped being Latin (which is another issue).

Btw, Aljamiado is Spanish/Portuguese/Iberian Romance, written in Arabic script.  Ladino is the same, written in Hebrew script.  That doesn't make it Semitic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2013, 10:20:21 AM »
Someone disagreeing with ialmisry about language, and someone other than ialmisry posting multiple maps. The world done gone crazy!

A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, "You are mad; you are not like us."

-St. Anthony the Great

 :police:
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2013, 10:22:23 AM »
Quote
The Bulgarians (Bulgarian: българи, IPA: [bɤ̞ɫɡɐri]) are a South Slavic[38][40][41][42] ethnic group native to Bulgaria and neighbouring regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians

The Word has spoken.  Wikipedia has declared Bulgarians to be Slavic.  There is nothing anyone can post now that will change my mind.
God bless!

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,471
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2013, 10:26:31 AM »
My grandma used to say that God only hears prayers in German.  I would never disagree with her so I have to assume that Latin and Old Church Slavonic were both considered Germanic languages at some holier point in time, as those are the best sounding languages for prayers, thus it only seems logical that the Apostles were given these tongues at Pentecost. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2013, 10:31:01 AM »
My grandma used to say that God only hears prayers in German.  I would never disagree with her so I have to assume that Latin and Old Church Slavonic were both considered Germanic languages at some holier point in time, as those are the best sounding languages for prayers, thus it only seems logical that the Apostles were given these tongues at Pentecost. 
God only listens in German because he is concerned they might attempt an invasion of heaven.  One has to monitor these things, you know...

God bless!

Offline Luka

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • Faith: Catholic Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Constantinople
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2013, 10:31:47 AM »
Romance, not Latin.
That assumes that Romance stopped being Latin (which is another issue).

Indeed it stopped, Romance languages are more mixtures of Vulgar Latin and local languages. Calling Romanian Latin is like calling America British.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2013, 10:53:02 AM »
Romance, not Latin.
That assumes that Romance stopped being Latin (which is another issue).

Indeed it stopped, Romance languages are more mixtures of Vulgar Latin and local languages. Calling Romanian Latin is like calling America British.
English, like Anglo-Saxon.

How did Vulgar Latin avoid "stopping" being Latin (evidently meaning the artificial construct, Classical Latin).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:54:47 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,940
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2013, 11:30:17 AM »
Romance, not Latin.
That assumes that Romance stopped being Latin (which is another issue).

Indeed it stopped, Romance languages are more mixtures of Vulgar Latin and local languages. Calling Romanian Latin is like calling America British.

Prior to Charlemagne's policy of enforcing Roman usage throughout the Church in his Empire, each area had priests who pronounced Latin in a manner still intelligible to the faithful, that is closer to the vernacular. The older rites (Gallican, Mozarabic), the familiar chant and pronunciation were suddenly and, in some areas, forcefully replaced. Some say that this was the beginning of clericalism and of the alienation of the people from the Church in the West. 

Btw Romanian seems to have inherited a lot from other Italic languages:

http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm

Quote
Keith Andrew Massey - Further Evidence for an "Italic" Substratum in Romanian

This article presents further evidence for the theory that one of the substrata within Romanian is an Italic language other than Latin itself. Lexical items of uncertain etymological origin are explained as more directly derived from this source through a previously unrecognized sound rule. The article suggests that the Romanian substratum that bears these Italic traits could be one of the indigenous languages in the Balkan Peninsula. Finally, the article demonstrates that a presumably Thracian inscription produces a sensible reading if read as bearing more affinities with Italic than has previously been supposed for that language.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 11:43:52 AM by Romaios »

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,471
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2013, 11:48:32 AM »
My grandma used to say that God only hears prayers in German.  I would never disagree with her so I have to assume that Latin and Old Church Slavonic were both considered Germanic languages at some holier point in time, as those are the best sounding languages for prayers, thus it only seems logical that the Apostles were given these tongues at Pentecost. 
God only listens in German because he is concerned they might attempt an invasion of heaven.  One has to monitor these things, you know...



Germans were the prayin' sort of people.  Just look at their belt buckles.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Luka

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • Faith: Catholic Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Constantinople
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2013, 12:10:41 PM »


How did Vulgar Latin avoid "stopping" being Latin (evidently meaning the artificial construct, Classical Latin).
Vulgar Latin became extinct together with Classical Latin. It didn't avoid the process, it just mixed with other elements and stopped being some version of Latin.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 12:12:00 PM by Luka »

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,064
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2013, 12:30:39 PM »

Any language used during the serving of Holy Liturgy is a sacred language.  The Grace of God sanctifies all.

I think the people in the church ought to understand what is being prayed and said. 

IF they come from a nation where Church Slavonic is used, than they ought to have heard it from being a babe, and should know what is being said.

If not, use a prayer book with both languages side by side, until you learn it.

If you attend an OCA church, where nobody speaks anything other than English (as is the case with the vast majority of Americans), and are mostly converts, who were never exposed to anything other than English, then by all means English should be used....and to them, hearing the Liturgy in English is a sacred experience.

To me, I grew up listening to my parents pray in Ukrainian from being in the womb onward.  My church services have always been in Ukrainian.  I prefer to pray in Ukrainian, rather than English, because that's what I know.  I don't even know half the prayers in English, I would need a book.  When I go to an English speaking church, it's good, but, I'm happier in my own. 

If not my own church, I prefer the Serbian, because they use Church Slavonic (which I can understand perfectly) and that somehow sounds better to me than the English.

However, I have no issues attending a parish that is not Ukrainian (and you name it, I've been there - Serbian, Romanian, Russian, Greek, Antiochian, Macedonian, Albanian, etc.) and listening to the service in whatever language they use.  It's their church, and they are the majority in attendance, and they should be able to understand.

I'm good with any language.  Once you know the Divine Liturgy, you "know" it.  It's the same no matter what language your ears are hearing, because your soul doesn't really need a language.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2013, 01:36:49 PM »
My grandma used to say that God only hears prayers in German.  I would never disagree with her so I have to assume that Latin and Old Church Slavonic were both considered Germanic languages at some holier point in time, as those are the best sounding languages for prayers, thus it only seems logical that the Apostles were given these tongues at Pentecost. 
God only listens in German because he is concerned they might attempt an invasion of heaven.  One has to monitor these things, you know...



Germans were the prayin' sort of people.  Just look at their belt buckles.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2013, 01:46:50 PM »


How did Vulgar Latin avoid "stopping" being Latin (evidently meaning the artificial construct, Classical Latin).
Vulgar Latin became extinct together with Classical Latin. It didn't avoid the process, it just mixed with other elements and stopped being some version of Latin.
yes, so you have asserted but yet have not demonstrated.  As Romaios pointed out, what you would call Latin still existed by your estimation when what you call Romance had, according to your assertions, already replaced Vulgar Latin.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2013, 05:02:25 PM »
Isa, could you link me to a book about the Attic Bible?

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,940
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2013, 05:12:42 PM »
Isa, could you link me to a book about the Attic Bible?

I only know about the Homeric Gospel (John 20:19-25) which is read at Pascha. But that's probably St. Nicodemos' doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9RiRNPjflI


Quote
    Ὄφρακε νωιτέροισιν ἐν οὔασι πάγχυ βάλωμεν
    θέσφατον, ἱμερόεσσαν, ἁγνὴν Εὐάγγελον ὄππα
    μειλίξωμεν Ἄνακτα Θεὸν μέγαν, οὐρανίωνα.
    Ἰθυγενεῖς. Σοφίη. Εὐαγγελίοιο κλύωμεν.

    Εἰρήνη χαρίεσσ’ ἐπ’ ἀπείρονα δῆμον ἐσεῖται.

    Ἐκ δ’ ἄρ’ Ἰωάννοιο τόδ’ ἔστι βροντογόνοιο.

    Ἄλλ’ ἄγετ’ ἀτρεμέσι χρησμοὺς λεύσωμεν ὀπωπαῖς.

    Εὖτε δὴ ἠέλιος φαέθων ἐπὶ ἕσπερον ἦλθε
    καὶ σκιόωντο ἀγυιαὶ ἐπὶ χθονὶ πουλυβοτείρῃ,
    ἥματι ἐν πρώτῳ, ὅτε τύμβου ἆλτο Σαωτήρ,
    κλῃισταὶ δὲ ἔσαν θυρίδες πυκινῶς ἀραρεῖαι,
    βλῆντο δὲ πάντες ὀχῆες ἐυσταθέος μεγάροιο,
    ἔνθα Μαθηταὶ ὁμοῦ τε ἀολλέες ἠγερέθοντο
    μυρόμενοι θανάτῳ ἐπ’ ἀεικέι Χριστοῦ Ἄνακτος
    καὶ χόλον ἀφραίνοντα Ἰουδαίων τρομέοντες,
    ἤλυθε δὴ τότε Χριστὸς Ἄναξ θεοειδέι μορφῇ,
    ἔστη δ’ ἐν μεσάτῳ ἀναφανδὸν καὶ φάτο μῦθον·
    Εἰρήνη ὑμῖν φίλη, ἡσυχίη τ’ ἐρατεινή.
    Ὡς εἰπὼν ἐπέδειξεν ἑὴν πλευρὴν ἠδὲ χεῖρας.
    Γήθησαν δὲ Μαθηταὶ ἐπεὶ ἴδον Εὐρυμέδοντα.

    Τοὺς δ’ αὖτις προσέειπεν Ἰησοῦς οὐρανοφοίτης·
    Εἰρήνη ὑμῖν φίλη, ἡσυχίη τ’ ἐρατεινή.
    Ὡς ἐμὲ πέμψε Πατὴρ ὅς ὑπέρτατα δώματα ναίει,
    ῳδ’ ἐγὼ ὑμέας ἐς χθόνα πέμπω εὐρυόδειαν.
    Ὡς ἄρα φωνήσας Μύσταις ἔμπνευσ’ ἀγορεύων·
    Πνεῦμα δέχνυσθ’ Ἅγιον, φαεσίμβροτον, ὑψιθόωκον·
    Ὧν μὲν ἀτασθαλίας θνητῶν ἀφέητ’ ἐπὶ γαῖαν,
    τοῖσι νύπου ἀφίενται ἐς οὐρανὸν ἀστερόεντα·
    ὧν δ’ ἄρ’ ἐπεσβολίας ὑππερφιάλων κρατέητε,
    τοῖσιν ἁλυκτοπέδῃς κεῖναι σθεναρῇς κρατέονται.

    Θωμᾶς δ’ ῳ ἐπίκλησις ἅπασι Δίδυμος ἀκούειν
    οὐχ ἅμα τοῖς ἄλλοις Μύσταις πρὶν ὁμώροφος ἔσκε
    Ἰησοῦς ὅτ’ ἔβη εἴσω μελάθροιο ἑταίρων.
    Ἴαχον οὖν ἄλλοι τούτῳ ἐρίηρες ἑταῖροι·
    Εἴδομεν ὀφθαλμοῖσιν Ἰησοῦν παγκρατέοντα.
    Τοὺς δ’ ἀπαμειβόμενος Θωμᾶς προσέφησεν ἀτειρής·
    Ἴχνια ἤν μὴ ἴδω μετὰ χείρεσιν ἡλατορήτῃς,
    δάκτυλον ἐμβάλλω τε ἐκείνου ἔνδοθι χειρός,
    χεῖρα τ’ ἐμὴν εἴσω πλευρῆς οἷ ρεῖα βαλοίμην,
    οὔποτε ὑμετέροισι λόγοις κεφαλῇ κατανεύσω.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:19:23 PM by Romaios »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2013, 05:16:55 PM »
Isa, could you link me to a book about the Attic Bible?

I only know about the Homeric Gospel which is read at Pascha. But that's probably St. Nicodemos' doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9RiRNPjflI



Now that's impressive. Thanks!

The elder Apollinaris apparently translated the Pentateuch into Greek hexameters, converted the first two books of Kings into an epic poem of twenty-four cantos, wrote tragedies modelled on Euripides, comedies after the manner of Menander, and odes imitated from Pindar. Too bad that they're lost.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:20:21 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,940
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2013, 05:27:05 PM »
Isa, could you link me to a book about the Attic Bible?

I only know about the Homeric Gospel which is read at Pascha. But that's probably St. Nicodemos' doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9RiRNPjflI



Now that's impressive. Thanks!

The elder Apollinaris apparently translated the Pentateuch into Greek hexameters, converted the first two books of Kings into an epic poem of twenty-four cantos, wrote tragedies modelled on Euripides, comedies after the manner of Menander, and odes imitated from Pindar. Too bad that they're lost.

There's still Christos paschon...

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2013, 05:28:16 PM »
Ah, yes, the famous work of Pseudo-Gregorius. How could I forget that one. It still feels weird to see something so Euripides-like with the Theotokos as one of the roles.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:29:40 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Remnkemi

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2013, 07:12:50 PM »
Which language are the Seraphim singing Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus?


Duh. Coptic of course. The Copts, like Seraphim, are monolingual angels. Need any more proof?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2013, 07:26:04 PM »
Which language are the Seraphim singing Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus?


Duh. Coptic of course. The Copts, like Seraphim, are monolingual angels. Need any more proof?
LOL. Do they sing "ΑΓΙΟΣ! ΑΓΙΟΣ! ΑΓΙΟΣ!" or "ΧΟΥΑΒ! ΧΟΥΑΒ! ΧΟΥΑΒ!"?

Or قدوس! قدوس!فدوس! ؟؟
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline dzheremi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,417
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2013, 07:33:09 PM »
Hahaha. Isa beat me to it, but you could've at least chosen one we don't usually do in Greek, Remnkemi... :D

Offline Remnkemi

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2013, 09:19:44 PM »
Which language are the Seraphim singing Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus?


Duh. Coptic of course. The Copts, like Seraphim, are monolingual angels. Need any more proof?
LOL. Do they sing "ΑΓΙΟΣ! ΑΓΙΟΣ! ΑΓΙΟΣ!" or "ΧΟΥΑΒ! ΧΟΥΑΒ! ΧΟΥΑΒ!"?

Or قدوس! قدوس!فدوس! ؟؟
No. No. You're thinking of those heretical trilingual Copts. Bunch of linguistic whimps. They're not angelic at all. Us angelic Copts only speak Coptic proper, just like the Seraphim. Oh and by the way, did you know Jesus spoke Coptic? He obviously didn't speak Hebrew in Egypt. When he tore down those pagan temples, He did it in Coptic. No other sacred language can do that.

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,680
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Nea Roma
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2013, 09:34:31 PM »
+1 Slavs, Greeks, Egyptians, Syriacs, Armenians, Georgians etc. are lucky because they have such sacred languages - they are able to understand them (just have to put some effort, but it's worthy of it) and the languages is not changing, and it has specifically created words and constructions and sounding to express Divinity and Orthodox theology.

Not really. Church Slavonic is being evolving continuously and have had several reforms. It's not the same like it was in IX century.

Quote
And last but not least, they doesn't sound so beautifully as in Church Slavonic.

I can't agree. Sometimes strange grammar, completely nonsensical syntax - these things  make me hear it not very pleasant

I agree Michal.  Slavonic texts were "modernized" many times over.  The current Slavonic Liturgy in northern Slavic usage is that which was revised in the Nikonian reforms (with significant changes to the text and definitely people would have been at first shocked to hear the changes from the "old way" of doing Liturgy) and people have been afraid to change it ever since the 1666-7 Sobor said "don't change it."   

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,766
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2013, 11:56:23 PM »
+1 Slavs, Greeks, Egyptians, Syriacs, Armenians, Georgians etc. are lucky because they have such sacred languages - they are able to understand them (just have to put some effort, but it's worthy of it) and the languages is not changing, and it has specifically created words and constructions and sounding to express Divinity and Orthodox theology.

Not really. Church Slavonic is being evolving continuously and have had several reforms. It's not the same like it was in IX century.

Quote
And last but not least, they doesn't sound so beautifully as in Church Slavonic.

I can't agree. Sometimes strange grammar, completely nonsensical syntax - these things  make me hear it not very pleasant

I agree Michal.  Slavonic texts were "modernized" many times over.  The current Slavonic Liturgy in northern Slavic usage is that which was revised in the Nikonian reforms (with significant changes to the text and definitely people would have been at first shocked to hear the changes from the "old way" of doing Liturgy) and people have been afraid to change it ever since the 1666-7 Sobor said "don't change it."   
The Whole Bible was redone a century later (the "Elisabeth Bible"); the reformers started editing the Liturgical texts at the turn of the previous century, and published the Lenten Triodion during WWI.  There has been talk at the highest levels of picking up where the work was left off.

Although I agree with you, Father, that the modern languages should have their texts.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2013, 12:15:29 AM »
Can we PLEASE stop calling an individual language 'Romance'????

There are 'Romance Languages', there are historical linguistic reconstructions of even older no longer spoken languages that get called 'proto-romance' or 'early romance' but those are academic constructs and were never spoken as a single language. If you see  things like 'Eastern Romance' etc on a chart, that is a category, not an actual language.

But there is no such language as 'Romance'


You are all making my head explode.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2013, 12:22:58 AM »
Can we PLEASE stop calling an individual language 'Romance'????

There are 'Romance Languages', there are historical linguistic reconstructions of even older no longer spoken languages that get called 'proto-romance' or 'early romance' but those are academic constructs and were never spoken as a single language. If you see  things like 'Eastern Romance' etc on a chart, that is a category, not an actual language.

But there is no such language as 'Romance'


You are all making my head explode.

Quite true, though there is a language called Romansch, one of the four official languages of Switzerland.  ;)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: "Sacred" languages?
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2013, 12:27:18 AM »
Can we PLEASE stop calling an individual language 'Romance'????

There are 'Romance Languages', there are historical linguistic reconstructions of even older no longer spoken languages that get called 'proto-romance' or 'early romance' but those are academic constructs and were never spoken as a single language. If you see  things like 'Eastern Romance' etc on a chart, that is a category, not an actual language.

But there is no such language as 'Romance'


You are all making my head explode.

Quite true, though there is a language called Romansch, one of the four official languages of Switzerland.  ;)

Indeed there is. Alas it is not the 'root' of all Romance languages, despite it being one itself.
So even if someone were spelling it incorrectly...
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.