Author Topic: Serious Question  (Read 6897 times)

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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2013, 12:40:35 AM »
OCA-Yes

OCA - No

Both can't be right.  Which is it?


I attend an OCA parish and Father's word on this from my catechism class is

'We know where Grace is, but cannot say for sure where Grace is not'


Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2013, 02:16:04 AM »
IF I may,

the fathers have said that it is technically possible for God to give his grace to anyone, so , I will say "No" but

( saying those outside the church cannot receive salvation. these two statements do not need to combat each other)

so I have to say also "yes"

or maybe, simply "Who knows"

I would simply quote fathers but it would probably take too much space than you requested

so don't count mine

(quickest quote)

"The baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church" St. Cyprian , Bishop of Carthage
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 02:17:51 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2013, 06:59:08 AM »
While I wanted to take more time to put my thoughts together on this, I honestly do not have the time and energy right now to supply an appropriate response to why I asked my question, but I will try.

As of late, on this forum it seems there has been a lot of tension and bitterness toward other posters and what they post.  I asked this question specifically for several reasons.

One – to see if there really is a standard answer.
Two – to see if there would be any contradiction with the simplest of answers.
Three – to hopefully put to rest a growing concern I have after watching post after post shred apart the love Christ bestowed on the world.

EDITED:

I didn't really like the way the rest of my post was worded, so I deleted most of it and changed some other parts.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 07:14:35 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2013, 07:07:13 AM »
I should probably give my answer.

Greek Orthodox - No

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2013, 10:04:15 AM »
A far more interesting aspect of this little poll is the fact that those who have their jurisdiction listed by their name also posted it in the body of their post and the people who did not, tended not to post their jurisdiction.  What can this mean?  I suspect that there is a secret cabal of Orthodox elites here at oc.net that have ascended beyond jurisdictional boundaries and now commune directly with the Almighty.  It is the only logical conclusion.  :laugh:
You just can't help yourself, can you?
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You know me, I can't resist shooting my mouth off.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2013, 10:17:22 AM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.
Peace.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2013, 10:34:14 AM »
Orthodox - Yes now. No after the last judment.

The most simple answer is never enough. "why you want to marry me?" is far more important than "will you marry me?"

Salvation, as an act of God, can be understood like an uncreated energy.

As such, in time and in history, it exists *only* in the visible and historical communion of the Orthodox Church. In fact, participation in the Body of Christ *is* salvation itself, in potential at least.

People, though, will go through a last judgement that will settle their eternal condition. Some who are *in* salvation/church will be out, some who are *out* will be brought in.

We know who is in salvation (every single Chalcedonian Catholic Orthodox Christian, and only them), we don't know who will remain in or out, but how people live usually gives us a good clue on where they're heading to. And that, has nothing to do with how pious or blessed with other graces a person can be.
Many energies, three persons, two natures, one God, one Church, one Baptism.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2013, 10:42:39 AM »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline William

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

Surprise surprise.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline mike

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2013, 01:17:13 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

So you can change your misleading profile information to notice others about your apostasy.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2013, 01:20:51 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.
Just curious, what prompted the decision to do so?
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2013, 02:11:41 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

So you can change your misleading profile information to notice others about your apostasy.
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

Surprise surprise.

I love this place. haha
Peace.

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2013, 02:12:17 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.
Just curious, what prompted the decision to do so?
I'll PM you.  I'd rather not put my flesh out there for the dogs to tear into.
Peace.

Offline William

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

So you can change your misleading profile information to notice others about your apostasy.
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

Surprise surprise.

I love this place. haha

I don't think I've ever seen a single one of your posts doing anything other than mock Orthodox people and their beliefs. So surprise surprise.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2013, 02:19:36 PM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

So you can change your misleading profile information to notice others about your apostasy.
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

Surprise surprise.

I love this place. haha

I don't think I've ever seen a single one of your posts doing anything other than mock Orthodox people and their beliefs. So surprise surprise.
Really?  A particular type of Orthodox, yes.

But I love Orthodox.  I extol the beauty of the faith and the Truth of it.  If you were FB friends with me, or real life friends with me, you'd realize that your comment has no basis in reality.

The fact that so many of posts HERE do make light of certain strains of Orthodoxy says more about the concentration of certain types in this particular forum.
Peace.

Offline William

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2013, 02:25:39 PM »
I extol the beauty of the faith and the Truth of it.

Apparently not.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2013, 02:34:47 PM »
I extol the beauty of the faith and the Truth of it.

Apparently not.
okay
Peace.

Online scamandrius

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2013, 03:05:34 PM »
There are only Orthodox Christians in Heaven.  That statement stands in contrast to something like "you must be ____________ to get in [i've always hated that formulation] to heaven."
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2013, 03:09:11 PM »
Be nice, everyone.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline William

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »
I extol the beauty of the faith and the Truth of it.

Apparently not.
okay

In regards to your faith tag, it's not just by OC.net standards.

From the words of a ROCOR bishop:

Quote
Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold.

Unless you would like to accuse Metropolitan Philaret of spending too much time on OC.net.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2013, 04:42:16 PM »
Stop trying to catch flies with vinegar.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2013, 04:44:54 PM »
I extol the beauty of the faith and the Truth of it.

Apparently not.
okay

In regards to your faith tag, it's not just by OC.net standards.

From the words of a ROCOR bishop:

Quote
Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold.

Unless you would like to accuse Metropolitan Philaret of spending too much time on OC.net.
ok
Peace.

Offline William

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2013, 04:45:59 PM »
Quoting Orthodox bishops =! catching flies with vinegar
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2013, 04:47:35 PM »
Quoting Orthodox bishops =! catching flies with vinegar

Threatening him with hellfire is. Good job pushing him away from the Church.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 04:48:11 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline William

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2013, 04:49:33 PM »
Quoting Orthodox bishops =! catching flies with vinegar

Threatening him with hellfire is.

That's Metropolitan Philaret's words, not mine. I'm just demonstrating that one does not necessarily have to spend too much time on OC.net to see leaving the church as grave. My understanding is that Orthodox clergy tend to reserve such gravity for cases like this because of how serious they consider it.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2013, 04:51:02 PM »
I extol the beauty of the faith and the Truth of it.

Apparently not.
okay

In regards to your faith tag, it's not just by OC.net standards.

From the words of a ROCOR bishop:

Quote
Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold.

Unless you would like to accuse Metropolitan Philaret of spending too much time on OC.net.
ok

All this from the same fellow who was having a fit yesterday because another poster assumed he was Orthodox.  Really?  (See reply #167 in the Ecumenism thread.)

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2013, 05:12:16 PM »
Deep Roots, please don't be upset by those nasty comments that some make. I'd be pretty annoyed too if I were you. But please don't let that harden your decision. I advise you to study the theological issues a bit, talk to priests from both Churches, and, most important, pray about it. I really do think that you're making a mistake and would hate to see you leave the Orthodox Church. Know that you're in my prayers.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 05:18:07 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2013, 06:13:32 PM »
More amused than upset.  Thank you for your thoughts and prayers, though -- I'd never turn those down.  We shall see what happens.
Peace.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2013, 07:16:13 PM »
huh william. r you even a catechumen yet?

Offline Quinault

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2013, 11:11:00 PM »
Stop trying to catch flies with vinegar.

Fruit flies love vinegar. Just add a drop of dish detergent and they fly right in and die.

Offline Maria

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2013, 12:14:10 AM »
Deep Roots, please don't be upset by those nasty comments that some make. I'd be pretty annoyed too if I were you. But please don't let that harden your decision. I advise you to study the theological issues a bit, talk to priests from both Churches, and, most important, pray about it. I really do think that you're making a mistake and would hate to see you leave the Orthodox Church. Know that you're in my prayers.



Deep Root, please know that I am praying for you.

Kerdy, Yes/No or True/False questions bother me. Christ sees into our hearts. Men do not.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Opus118

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2013, 12:57:38 AM »
Stop trying to catch flies with vinegar.

Fruit flies love vinegar. Just add a drop of dish detergent and they fly right in and die.

This is true, my only recommendation is to use apple cider vinegar, unless you can afford wine vinegar (legally they are called pomace flies). The detergent prevents the flies form traversing to the edges of the vinegar container and escaping.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2013, 01:16:04 AM »
Roman Catholic - No

Offline Romaios

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2013, 07:29:44 AM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

If your Catholic roots run deeper... Just make sure that you do this to bring forth better fruit.

Orthodox grapes may turn sour at times!  ;)

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2013, 09:45:20 AM »
Was Antiochian, but in the process of going back to the Catholicism of my baptism and heritage.  -- No.

Deep Roots, this is sad.  I assume you are feeling a longing, a nostalgia, for what you grew up with, or have heard family talking about, or seen in photos, etc.

We all have nostalgia, however, the world changes, and almost nothing that we remember from our childhood's is the same when we are adults.  Building are demolished and new ones built, governments change, fashions change, etc...

Faith is not such a thing.

Our Faith is what leads us to our eternal salvation.
 
Please, don't confuse nostalgia with True Salvation.  Do not make a rash decision, based on a warm and fuzzy feeling you get when reminiscing about the olden days.

Don't take this Forum to represent all of Orthodoxy, either.  This is not an actual branch of the Church, and most Orthodox on here do not behave the way they ought to, all the time.

Go back and reread the Church Fathers, the beautiful theology and hymnology and go find what it was that drew you here in the first place.  THAT has not changed, and will remain true to the end.

Praying you find the courage and perseverance to remain in Christ's True Church.


Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2013, 09:47:10 AM »
Stop trying to catch flies with vinegar.

Fruit flies love vinegar. Just add a drop of dish detergent and they fly right in and die.

Thanks, Quinault!  I didn't know this!  I always get them in the autumn, when the house starts to fill with fresh fruits and veggies....but, this year they've made an early appearance....in the gazillions!  

I'll give this a try....and I will use wine vinegar as Opus suggested.  I bought a bottle long ago, and have yet to use it for anything.  This is as good a reason to pop the cap!
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Deep Roots

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2013, 12:43:17 PM »

Deep Roots, this is sad.  I assume you are feeling a longing, a nostalgia, for what you grew up with, or have heard family talking about, or seen in photos, etc.

We all have nostalgia, however, the world changes, and almost nothing that we remember from our childhood's is the same when we are adults.  Building are demolished and new ones built, governments change, fashions change, etc...

Faith is not such a thing.

Our Faith is what leads us to our eternal salvation.
 
Please, don't confuse nostalgia with True Salvation.  Do not make a rash decision, based on a warm and fuzzy feeling you get when reminiscing about the olden days.

Don't take this Forum to represent all of Orthodoxy, either.  This is not an actual branch of the Church, and most Orthodox on here do not behave the way they ought to, all the time.

Go back and reread the Church Fathers, the beautiful theology and hymnology and go find what it was that drew you here in the first place.  THAT has not changed, and will remain true to the end.

Praying you find the courage and perseverance to remain in Christ's True Church.
Thanks for the kind thoughts and prayers.

Nostalgia is only a part.  What many would consider a bad theology (and a "flawed understanding" of the two Churches) is another part. But I'm not necessarily interested in laying all of that out here.  Several have been kind enough to PM me asking for reasons.  I have provided a small bullet point summary to them.  It is a struggle for me, because I love the Orthodox Church.  But I also love the Catholic Church.  I just think I love God's people wherever they are.  Even though my sinfulness sometimes doesn't make that apparent around here...depending on the topic and attitudes on display. 
Peace.

Offline biro

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2013, 01:26:26 PM »
There are only Orthodox Christians in Heaven.  That statement stands in contrast to something like "you must be ____________ to get in [i've always hated that formulation] to heaven."

How?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2013, 01:31:39 PM »
I would imagine that what he means is by Orthodox meaning "right worshiping".  I would interpret this to mean that we must be "right worshiping" to attain salvation.  Who is in the Orthodox Church and who will be saved are two different groups of people and although there will be much overlap, neither is a subset of the other.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2013, 07:47:42 PM »
Stop trying to catch flies with vinegar.

Fruit flies love vinegar. Just add a drop of dish detergent and they fly right in and die.

Thanks, Quinault!  I didn't know this!  I always get them in the autumn, when the house starts to fill with fresh fruits and veggies....but, this year they've made an early appearance....in the gazillions!  

I'll give this a try....and I will use wine vinegar as Opus suggested.  I bought a bottle long ago, and have yet to use it for anything.  This is as good a reason to pop the cap!


Tangent:

We actually did an experiment comparing sweetened apple cider vinegar, honey, and unsweetened apple cider vinegar. The flies completely ignored the honey, liked the sweetened vinegar a little more, LOVED the unsweetened vinegar.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 07:48:00 PM by Quinault »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2013, 10:02:14 PM »
We actually did an experiment comparing sweetened apple cider vinegar, honey, and unsweetened apple cider vinegar. The flies completely ignored the honey, liked the sweetened vinegar a little more, LOVED the unsweetened vinegar.

So what you're saying is that we can definitely attract more converts to our Holy Mother Church using aggressive polemics instead of bearing loving witness to the truth of our faith, as long as we are content with having a Church filled with jerks. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

Mor Ephrem: 11/10

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2013, 10:35:34 PM »
Tangent:

We actually did an experiment comparing sweetened apple cider vinegar, honey, and unsweetened apple cider vinegar. The flies completely ignored the honey, liked the sweetened vinegar a little more, LOVED the unsweetened vinegar.

You would challenge the long-lived wisdom of my granny? My favorite granny? As she would say: "How dare you! How simply dare you!"

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2013, 10:37:51 PM »
We actually did an experiment comparing sweetened apple cider vinegar, honey, and unsweetened apple cider vinegar. The flies completely ignored the honey, liked the sweetened vinegar a little more, LOVED the unsweetened vinegar.

So what you're saying is that we can definitely attract more converts to our Holy Mother Church using aggressive polemics instead of bearing loving witness to the truth of our faith, as long as we are content with having a Church filled with jerks. 

And if they share the life span of a fruit fly....at least they might not last long.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2013, 10:49:34 PM »
We actually did an experiment comparing sweetened apple cider vinegar, honey, and unsweetened apple cider vinegar. The flies completely ignored the honey, liked the sweetened vinegar a little more, LOVED the unsweetened vinegar.

So what you're saying is that we can definitely attract more converts to our Holy Mother Church using aggressive polemics instead of bearing loving witness to the truth of our faith, as long as we are content with having a Church filled with jerks. 

Nope, just pointing out that the "drawing more flies with honey" concept is flawed. You will draw more *humans* with vinegar, not flies.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Serious Question
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2013, 11:54:44 PM »
Stop trying to catch flies with vinegar.

Fruit flies love vinegar. Just add a drop of dish detergent and they fly right in and die.

Thanks, Quinault!  I didn't know this!  I always get them in the autumn, when the house starts to fill with fresh fruits and veggies....but, this year they've made an early appearance....in the gazillions!  

I'll give this a try....and I will use wine vinegar as Opus suggested.  I bought a bottle long ago, and have yet to use it for anything.  This is as good a reason to pop the cap!


Liza, the wine vinegar part was sort of a joke to myself (I like to be entertained) because when I import Drosophila melanogaster from Europe, the USDA requires that I identify them as Pomace (the dregs from squeezing grapes) flies. I am in a Drosophila lab. We get rid of them with apple cider vinegar and dish detergent.  Just a small amount of detergent so that they slip back into the liquid rather than walk out. Save the wine vinegar for salad.