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Author Topic: Why God is definitely not real  (Read 4886 times) Average Rating: 0
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lovesupreme
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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2013, 12:40:33 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

Phil, you're revealing your agenda here.
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« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2013, 12:41:10 PM »

what do you believe and why?
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« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2013, 12:41:33 PM »

because i have no idea
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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2013, 12:43:04 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

Your video brought this up for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM5ILOsHLnw

Oprah Winfrey: Jesus Did Not Come To Die On The Cross

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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2013, 12:44:20 PM »

because i have no idea
well, at least you got that right.
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« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2013, 12:45:49 PM »

what do you believe and why?

This is what we believe.
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« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2013, 12:46:15 PM »

what do you believe and why?

What:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten; Begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, Very God of Very God; Begotten, not made; of one Essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead (Whose kingdom shall have no end).

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; I look for the Resurrection of the dead, and the Life of the world to come. Amen.

Why:
This varies for everyone, but some partial reasons include: personal revelation, logical conclusions, 2000 years of Church history, etc.
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« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2013, 12:47:27 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?
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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2013, 12:50:15 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?
What do you think of judaism?
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« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2013, 12:50:54 PM »

i asked you first
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« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2013, 12:54:03 PM »

i asked you first
And I asked you second.  Cheesy
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« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2013, 12:56:00 PM »

i dont really have a problem with christians but i read parts of the jewish bible and says to like steal form gentiles and kill non jews thing is ive never met a jewish person why im asking you
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« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2013, 12:57:22 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?

"Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions."  

"Rowdy" Roddy Piper
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« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2013, 01:02:54 PM »

i dont really have a problem with christians but i read parts of the jewish bible and says to like steal form gentiles and kill non jews thing is ive never met a jewish person why im asking you

I'm Jewish. Jews aren't commanded to steal from gentiles or kill non-jews and I don't know why you think they are.
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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2013, 01:03:14 PM »

Im greek and im an atheist and my disbelief lies not in not wanting to be punished but throught careful critique of the bible i respect a christians right to believe in christ. I just have a few questions regarding the bible. First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition. Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him. Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods) they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want. if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems



Whenever we (human reasoning) try to process the events in the Christian Bible; it is flawed and imperfect.

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« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2013, 01:14:48 PM »

sorry that was a friend of mine that was weird
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« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2013, 01:19:58 PM »

the thing about jewish people that wasnt me that was my firend mike and im very sorry that he wrote that but about the atheist the new testament is very flawed
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« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2013, 01:22:28 PM »

the thing about jewish people that wasnt me that was my firend mike and im very sorry that he wrote that but about the atheist the new testament is very flawed

I would also like to excuse any posts that I've made since registering that may have offended people here. That was all my friend mike.

(I'm just joking Tongue)
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« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2013, 01:34:45 PM »

because i have no idea

Can we stop allowing juveniles on this board?
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« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2013, 01:52:54 PM »

Here was my reply from the other thread, in which you posted most of the same questions in the OP...

Welcome to the forum Smiley  My thoughts on your questions...

First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition.

One common answer seems to be free-will, as you note. So, just to sum up: if God created only creatures that he knew would choose him then he wouldn't have created groups of creatures with free-will, but rather groups that he knew ahead of time would do what he wanted. With the answer it seems that God was willing to create flawed creatures that were able to rebel against him--and in fact, he created them knowing that they would rebel. In essence he prized existence and a fall from grace over not existing to begin with. Or, put another way, better to have lived and lost than never to have lived at all. I'm not sure that I find this particularly strong, but there it is for what it's worth.

There is also the idea--which I find a stronger idea from a philosophical point of view, though there isn't a lot of early evidence for it--that Jesus would have become a human whether Satan, Adam, Eve, or the human race had fallen. Essentially the argument is that there was a chasm between God and man: between created and uncreated, material and immaterial, that which is grace and that which is lacking in grace. The incarnation of Jesus, his life, his death, burial, resurrection, etc. was not then simply to correct a mistake, but would have been intended all along as an act of love on the part of God, to unite man and God. Salvation from sin and death are paramount, but God did not only saved from these things, but also wished to transfigure us and allow us to grow closer to him, partaking of the divine nature.

Quote
Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him.

To expand on what I said before--God is indeed powerful, very powerful, and in some sense we don't really understand all-powerful. In such power is a willingness to created things that can become flawed. In his strength he is alright granting his creatures the ability to both succeed and fail. He did not want to create creatures who were perhaps in some since capable of going astray, but who God knew wouldn't.  Not that I accept this as a full answer to your questions... I'm still struggling to understand. Though at some point I left my atheism/agnosticism and returned to Christianity, because while not all my questions were fully answered, they were answered well enough for me to see a path cleared back.

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Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods) they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want.

I find the questions about God the Son before the incarnation, and Jesus the Son of God after the incarnation, to be quite interesting. I admit that I am well out of my depth on those points though. Well, I suppose most of us are out of our depth on many points, but in this case I mean I have not even read or thought enough about it to hazard a guess. I'm sure others will come along with some thoughts, however.
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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2013, 01:56:30 PM »

why did god create lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve in the garden of eden leading to judas betraying jesus and his eventual crucifixition ?

Worldly beings experience time as one event after another.. First the cause and then later the effect, an Omniscient God should have known better seeing the future results.

But perhaps God's experience of time is not linear like ours. Maybe reality is more like a circle with God in the center. All his experiences are simultaneous. Everything happens at once. No cause or effect as we perceive it. A complete unified whole.

 

 
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« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2013, 02:03:02 PM »

I guess God isn't real in a sense, since he's uncreated and "in another state" from everything that he did create.
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« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2013, 02:12:18 PM »


This is what I've been doing throughout this thread
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« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2013, 02:43:16 PM »


Phil, instead of asking Internet strangers, why don't you ask your priest, your parents or your yiayia?

They may be better able to explain it to you.

I also feel that with maturity these things will make more sense to you.

After all, when you were really young you did what your parents told you without understanding the reasoning. Now that you are older you understand why you need to eat veggies, brush teeth, go to sleep on time...

In time you will also understand this. Don't lose faith.
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« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2013, 02:58:14 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.
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« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2013, 03:02:15 PM »

Phil, instead of asking Internet strangers, why don't you ask your priest, your parents or your yiayia?

Yiayias don't take kindly to those rude questions asked in this thread.
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« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2013, 03:02:56 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

This sounds like what an atheist I'm subscribed to on youtube says. Actually he's the only atheist I'm subscribed to...  but anyway. He says that even if he granted that Jesus died for humanity and was resurrected and there was a God and all that, that he still wouldn't become a Christian, because he finds the morality and such in the Bible to be reprehensible. Somehow this line of thinking makes more sense to me when coming from the mouth of an atheist...  Cool Huh
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« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2013, 03:15:20 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?

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« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2013, 03:17:26 PM »

Now that you are older you understand why you need to eat veggies, brush teeth, go to sleep on time...

I still haven't grasped this unfortunately...
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« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2013, 03:24:27 PM »

Normally, I would read this thread, however the spelling errors are so bad I couldn't be bothered to read more than four of phil's posts.

I would expect more from someone who's twenty-four years old. 

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« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2013, 03:34:17 PM »

I would expect more from someone who's twenty-four years old. 

How do we know that he's 24 years old?
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« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2013, 03:35:41 PM »

I would expect more from someone who's twenty-four years old.  

How do we know that he's 24 years old?
His username reveals that he was born on February 1, 1990.
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« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2013, 03:39:53 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?


Liza, I think you and I have understood JamesR somewhat differently. It seems to me that he's simply trying to grasp some things intellectually.

Quite frankly, there are some things that I don't like about the way God has done some things. However, I am the one who needs to adjust. Over the years some things eventually do make some sort of sense. And even if they don't, I realize that even my own record for doing things the way I'd really like to see them done is pretty dismal. I'm quite happy to let God do His job and trust that He knows more about it all than I do. I am reasonably confident that someday JamesR will get to the point where I'm at.

BTW, I really liked his blunt answer to the OP. It seems that youth can get away with some things, and we older folks can get away with others.
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« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2013, 04:26:42 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?



Not judging Him; just disagreeing with Him and not understanding Him. For example, I don't get the problem of suffering and I don't see what ends could possibly justify all the misery in the world, and I have trouble reconciling this to His "loving" character while He just sits idly by while we destroy ourselves. This goes along with the point of Creation in general: why do we have to exist? I never asked for existence. We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell. What if we simply don't like the game and would have preferred to have never come into existence? It seems like some people were just created for the purpose of keeping the furnace hot and I have trouble with this. I personally think the possibility of even one soul suffering in Hell forever is enough justification to have never created humanity at all. I don't get how the Church can say we were made in the "image and likeness" of God and are temples of the Holy Spirit and partakers of the Divine nature and all that stuff, while at the same time constantly teaching us to be ashamed of our bodies, desires, and preaching our fallennes. What did the Incarnation and Resurrection really achieve? Nothing seems different. People still sin like crazy, I'm still carrying the consequences of Adam and inclined toward sinfulness, my desires are all out of wack, it's still easier to do evil than to do good etc. I'm sick of goodness always being an uphill battle.

Quite frankly, I  sometimes can't help but see God as this bullyish, Divine puppet-master who created us for His own amusement, regardless of whatever pain we may feel. I don't see what respect God is entitled to just for creating us; millions of absentee, deadbeat fathers create children that they walk out on and no one respects them. God is no different.
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« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2013, 04:33:46 PM »

because i have no idea

Can we stop allowing juveniles on this board?

But I like it here Undecided
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« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2013, 04:44:33 PM »

We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell.

Man, regular hell sounds bad enough, I don't even want to be able to imagine what "Orthodox Hell" is like.  Is it like "Hell (x3)(x12)(x40)(x100)"?  Gives me the willies.
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« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2013, 04:48:50 PM »

We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell.

Man, regular hell sounds bad enough, I don't even want to be able to imagine what "Orthodox Hell" is like.  Is it like "Hell (x3)(x12)(x40)(x100)"?  Gives me the willies.

Don't say 'imagine'. James doesn't approve of imagination.
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2013, 05:54:02 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.

YOUAREBARBARIANT
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« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2013, 05:57:12 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?

Is it time to quote St. John Chrysostom?

don't make me do it!
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« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2013, 06:00:01 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.

YOUAREBARBARIANT
OUSEPUNCTUATIONT
RUEGRAMMARIANSTA
YWITHTHEOLDWAYS



(Translation: You and your newfangled Latin alphabet and fancy straight lines...)

Tongue
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« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2013, 06:21:53 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?



Not judging Him; just disagreeing with Him and not understanding Him. For example, I don't get the problem of suffering and I don't see what ends could possibly justify all the misery in the world, and I have trouble reconciling this to His "loving" character while He just sits idly by while we destroy ourselves. This goes along with the point of Creation in general: why do we have to exist? I never asked for existence. We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell. What if we simply don't like the game and would have preferred to have never come into existence? It seems like some people were just created for the purpose of keeping the furnace hot and I have trouble with this. I personally think the possibility of even one soul suffering in Hell forever is enough justification to have never created humanity at all. I don't get how the Church can say we were made in the "image and likeness" of God and are temples of the Holy Spirit and partakers of the Divine nature and all that stuff, while at the same time constantly teaching us to be ashamed of our bodies, desires, and preaching our fallennes. What did the Incarnation and Resurrection really achieve? Nothing seems different. People still sin like crazy, I'm still carrying the consequences of Adam and inclined toward sinfulness, my desires are all out of wack, it's still easier to do evil than to do good etc. I'm sick of goodness always being an uphill battle.

Quite frankly, I  sometimes can't help but see God as this bullyish, Divine puppet-master who created us for His own amusement, regardless of whatever pain we may feel. I don't see what respect God is entitled to just for creating us; millions of absentee, deadbeat fathers create children that they walk out on and no one respects them. God is no different.
Have you given C.S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain a fair read? It might be worth a shot.
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« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2013, 06:26:45 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.

YOUAREBARBARIANT
OUSEPUNCTUATIONT
RUEGRAMMARIANSTA
YWITHTHEOLDWAYS



(Translation: You and your newfangled Latin alphabet and fancy straight lines...)

Tongue

 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:26 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE
You do realize that the Zeitgeist has been dismissed completely right, and not just religious zealots but by atheists themselves. Seems like most people have moved on to arguing certain historical elements of Christ rather than his nonexistence.

If you find the above convincing, then I will add you to the list of people I pray for.
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« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:26 PM »

We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell.

Man, regular hell sounds bad enough, I don't even want to be able to imagine what "Orthodox Hell" is like.  Is it like "Hell (x3)(x12)(x40)(x100)"?  Gives me the willies.

Don't say 'imagine'. James doesn't approve of imagination.
Imagine there's no heaven or hell...

Oh not that imagine.
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« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:33 PM »

because i have no idea

Can we stop allowing juveniles on this board?
lol age requirement.
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