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Author Topic: Why God is definitely not real  (Read 5145 times) Average Rating: 0
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phil2190
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« on: August 03, 2013, 11:08:49 AM »

Im greek and im an atheist and my disbelief lies not in not wanting to be punished but throught careful critique of the bible i respect a christians right to believe in christ. I just have a few questions regarding the bible. First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition. Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him. Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods) they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want. if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 11:30:27 AM »

Im greek and im an atheist and my disbelief lies not in not wanting to be punished but throught careful critique of the bible i respect a christians right to believe in christ. I just have a few questions regarding the bible. First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition.

why do you ask? IOW, what is your question?  You seem to hold to the error that God is bound by His knowledge, and that His mercy is limited.
Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him.
and He would rise and save man.  Any further question?
Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods)

no, is just states the fact that people idolize things that are not God.
they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want.
IOW, God has to do things the way you think they should be done.

John 10:18.
if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems
uh huh.
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 11:58:15 AM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 12:02:34 PM »

You're right. God is definitely not real. Apophasis wins again!
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 12:03:47 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing
How is Chris incapable of dying? He certainly has a human nature, and death is merely separation of the soul form the body? What about that is impossible for Christ?
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 12:04:10 PM »

Let's eat, grandma!
Let's eat grandma!

Interpunction, it saves lives.
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 12:05:05 PM »

wow, you convinced me! Where is the nearest athiest church.
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »

Let's eat, grandma!
Let's eat grandma!

Interpunction, it saves lives.

Pre-Passion: Let's eat, Jesus!
Post-Passion: Let's eat Jesus!
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 12:06:20 PM »

Guys, he's a confused kid, and a non-native English speaker. Keep to short and simple words. :-)
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...
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 12:06:48 PM »

because of the trinity he is god man god spirit and god father simeltanously
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 12:07:14 PM »

because of the trinity he is god man god spirit and god father simeltanously

No. That would be modalism.
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 12:08:41 PM »

Let's eat, grandma!
Let's eat grandma!

Interpunction, it saves lives.

Pre-Passion: Let's eat, Jesus!
Post-Passion: Let's eat Jesus!

That's some theology you've got right there...
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 12:08:55 PM »

even if what im saying about the trinity if wrong explain lucifer?
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 12:09:04 PM »

because of the trinity he is god man god spirit and god father simeltanously

Nope. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct persons. God is one in essence, but three in persons.
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2013, 12:09:31 PM »

even if what im saying about the trinity if wrong explain lucifer?

Huh?
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2013, 12:10:24 PM »

even if what im saying about the trinity if wrong explain lucifer?
What is there to explain? God created the devil, and the devil chose to disobey God. If God only created those beings who would do exactly what God wanted, how is there free will?
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2013, 12:10:51 PM »

why did god create lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve in the garden of eden leading to judas betraying jesus and his eventual crucifixition ?
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 12:12:01 PM »

you cannot explain lucifer there is no free will in the bibleThe heart of man plans his way,
    but the Lord establishes his steps proverbs 16:9
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 12:13:44 PM »

you cannot explain lucifer there is no free will in the bibleThe heart of man plans his way,
    but the Lord establishes his steps proverbs 16:9

A Calvinist Greek, huh? Cyril Lucaris, is that you?
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2013, 12:15:45 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing
We didn't.  He wasn't resurrected, He ROSE.  Pay attention.

As for the last comment, that is the irony proclaimed over and over in the hymns of Great and Holy Friday.  Obviously, though, He could die, as He did.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2013, 12:17:50 PM »

were no longer debating the trinity but the fact that you justifiying the resurection suggects that im right
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2013, 12:18:52 PM »

you cannot explain lucifer there is no free will in the bibleThe heart of man plans his way,
    but the Lord establishes his steps proverbs 16:9
A poor argument for predestination.

My sons when toddlers planned their way a lot, but we went where I directed.
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2013, 12:19:07 PM »

were no longer debating the trinity but the fact that you justifiying the resurection suggects that im right
By all means, tell us what we are debating.
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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2013, 12:20:45 PM »

were no longer debating the trinity but the fact that you justifiying the resurection suggects that im right
Your errors on the Most Holy Trinity were easily dispensed with.  Having shown you your error, why would we belabor it?

You brought up the Resurrection, I just responded.  Nothing more.
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2013, 12:21:00 PM »

the fallaciousness of the bible and the existence of god you cannot say that the bible is in fallable because it is the word of god therefore the mistakes inside of it are beyond our understanding this is a fallacy of begging the question
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2013, 12:21:10 PM »

the fact that you justifiying the resurection suggects that im right

Not really.
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 12:22:50 PM »

lulz @ logic
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 12:22:50 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing
?

You know what resurrection means right?
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2013, 12:23:55 PM »

......yesss
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2013, 12:25:51 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing
How is Chris incapable of dying?
Freudian slip? You are Chris, are you not? Grin
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2013, 12:26:35 PM »

even if jesus is god-man and has some human attributes then he has some godlike attributes humans should not able to kill jesus  because he is omnipitenet and thus invincible he would still be on the cross and we could travel to the stop were he "died" and talk to him he is not there and thus he never existed
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2013, 12:27:05 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing
How is Chris incapable of dying?
Freudian slip? You are Chris, are you not? Grin
Haha. opps.  Cheesy

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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2013, 12:28:00 PM »

why did god create lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve in the garden of eden leading to judas betraying jesus and his eventual crucifixition ?
Why ask why?
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2013, 12:28:16 PM »

even if jesus is god-man and has some human attributes then he has some godlike attributes humans should not able to kill jesus  because he is omnipitenet and thus invincible he would still be on the cross and we could travel to the stop were he "died" and talk to him he is not there and thus he never existed

How old are you?
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2013, 12:28:20 PM »

even if jesus is god-man and has some human attributes then he has some godlike attributes humans should not able to kill jesus  because he is omnipitenet and thus invincible he would still be on the cross and we could travel to the stop were he "died" and talk to him he is not there and thus he never existed
The person of Christ cannot be brought to an end. But that does not mean that his human soul cannot be separated from his human body: in other words he can die. But death does not mean the end of an existence.
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2013, 12:30:11 PM »

the trinity is three inseprabale parts what dont you get like water steam and ice part of one subastance jesus father and holy ghost all have a godlike essence
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2013, 12:30:30 PM »

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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2013, 12:31:45 PM »

the trinity is three inseprabale parts what dont you get like water steam and ice part of one subastance jesus father and holy ghost all have a godlike essence
The persons of the Trinity are not "parts of God" nor are they phases or manifestations of. Each is a distinct person, and each is fully God. Three distinct persons, one divine essence.
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2013, 12:31:48 PM »

God does not exist, but, please, let me school you in theology anyway.
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2013, 12:32:10 PM »

because of the trinity he is god man god spirit and god father simeltanously

When I tried to post this, I was told by the computer that twenty-four new replies were posted since I started typing.  LOL.  Anyway, I spent a bit of time trying to make sure I wasn't being heretical, so I'm going to post this anyway.  Tongue

The Trinity is three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  

One of these Persons, the Son, became man.  The Father and the Holy Spirit did not become man, only the Son.  Without "leaving" where he always was, the Son entered into creation in a way he had not before, as one of us.  We know him as Jesus.  

Being divine, he is incapable of dying, but having become man, he has taken upon himself "body, mind, and soul, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance" (cf. liturgical creed, Armenian Apostolic Church), without ceasing to be divine as he always was.  He was incapable of dying before he became man, but afterwards not only could he die, but he did die.  In this sense, we can say that "God died on the Cross", but it is only in this sense.  The Father and the Holy Spirit did not die on the Cross, the Trinity did not die on the Cross.    
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2013, 12:34:54 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2013, 12:35:43 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

Let me commend you for being honest with your position about your beliefs about God. (Your central belief is that He does not exist.) I regret to tell you that there is no way that I can convince you of God's existence and His interaction with us by means of debate.

I can also commend you for respecting others' beliefs. You mentioned spending Pascha at church and with your family. That is good. I hope that if nothing else you enjoy the festivities simply as a good time together with people whom you love and who love you.

You say that you are "greek". Does that mean you are in Greece and that Greek is your main language? Or are you US/Canadian/etc. of Greek ethnicity? I ask that because others have commented on the quality of English that you use. Whichever the case, I hope you keep working on your mastery of written English.

Thank you for taking the chance to engage in conversation here - you trusted that we would be here and would listen and respond. I hope someday you'll have the courage to take the same chance with God - that He will be there and will listen and respond.
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2013, 12:38:40 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

What you've been doing is not reasoning. You've been bouncing off the walls all over the place, throwing points here and there and following up on nothing. Debate takes a bit more than that.

Instead of 'documentaries' with obvious agendas, and unresearched ones at that, we invite you to stay, read around and educate yourself on what we believe and why.
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2013, 12:40:29 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2013, 12:40:33 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

Phil, you're revealing your agenda here.
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« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2013, 12:41:10 PM »

what do you believe and why?
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« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2013, 12:41:33 PM »

because i have no idea
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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2013, 12:43:04 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

Your video brought this up for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM5ILOsHLnw

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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2013, 12:44:20 PM »

because i have no idea
well, at least you got that right.
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« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2013, 12:45:49 PM »

what do you believe and why?

This is what we believe.
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« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2013, 12:46:15 PM »

what do you believe and why?

What:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten; Begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, Very God of Very God; Begotten, not made; of one Essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead (Whose kingdom shall have no end).

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; I look for the Resurrection of the dead, and the Life of the world to come. Amen.

Why:
This varies for everyone, but some partial reasons include: personal revelation, logical conclusions, 2000 years of Church history, etc.
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« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2013, 12:47:27 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?
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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2013, 12:50:15 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?
What do you think of judaism?
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« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2013, 12:50:54 PM »

i asked you first
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« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2013, 12:54:03 PM »

i asked you first
And I asked you second.  Cheesy
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« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2013, 12:56:00 PM »

i dont really have a problem with christians but i read parts of the jewish bible and says to like steal form gentiles and kill non jews thing is ive never met a jewish person why im asking you
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« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2013, 12:57:22 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?

"Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions."  

"Rowdy" Roddy Piper
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« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2013, 01:02:54 PM »

i dont really have a problem with christians but i read parts of the jewish bible and says to like steal form gentiles and kill non jews thing is ive never met a jewish person why im asking you

I'm Jewish. Jews aren't commanded to steal from gentiles or kill non-jews and I don't know why you think they are.
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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2013, 01:03:14 PM »

Im greek and im an atheist and my disbelief lies not in not wanting to be punished but throught careful critique of the bible i respect a christians right to believe in christ. I just have a few questions regarding the bible. First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition. Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him. Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods) they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want. if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems



Whenever we (human reasoning) try to process the events in the Christian Bible; it is flawed and imperfect.

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« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2013, 01:14:48 PM »

sorry that was a friend of mine that was weird
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« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2013, 01:19:58 PM »

the thing about jewish people that wasnt me that was my firend mike and im very sorry that he wrote that but about the atheist the new testament is very flawed
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« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2013, 01:22:28 PM »

the thing about jewish people that wasnt me that was my firend mike and im very sorry that he wrote that but about the atheist the new testament is very flawed

I would also like to excuse any posts that I've made since registering that may have offended people here. That was all my friend mike.

(I'm just joking Tongue)
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« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2013, 01:34:45 PM »

because i have no idea

Can we stop allowing juveniles on this board?
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« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2013, 01:52:54 PM »

Here was my reply from the other thread, in which you posted most of the same questions in the OP...

Welcome to the forum Smiley  My thoughts on your questions...

First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition.

One common answer seems to be free-will, as you note. So, just to sum up: if God created only creatures that he knew would choose him then he wouldn't have created groups of creatures with free-will, but rather groups that he knew ahead of time would do what he wanted. With the answer it seems that God was willing to create flawed creatures that were able to rebel against him--and in fact, he created them knowing that they would rebel. In essence he prized existence and a fall from grace over not existing to begin with. Or, put another way, better to have lived and lost than never to have lived at all. I'm not sure that I find this particularly strong, but there it is for what it's worth.

There is also the idea--which I find a stronger idea from a philosophical point of view, though there isn't a lot of early evidence for it--that Jesus would have become a human whether Satan, Adam, Eve, or the human race had fallen. Essentially the argument is that there was a chasm between God and man: between created and uncreated, material and immaterial, that which is grace and that which is lacking in grace. The incarnation of Jesus, his life, his death, burial, resurrection, etc. was not then simply to correct a mistake, but would have been intended all along as an act of love on the part of God, to unite man and God. Salvation from sin and death are paramount, but God did not only saved from these things, but also wished to transfigure us and allow us to grow closer to him, partaking of the divine nature.

Quote
Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him.

To expand on what I said before--God is indeed powerful, very powerful, and in some sense we don't really understand all-powerful. In such power is a willingness to created things that can become flawed. In his strength he is alright granting his creatures the ability to both succeed and fail. He did not want to create creatures who were perhaps in some since capable of going astray, but who God knew wouldn't.  Not that I accept this as a full answer to your questions... I'm still struggling to understand. Though at some point I left my atheism/agnosticism and returned to Christianity, because while not all my questions were fully answered, they were answered well enough for me to see a path cleared back.

Quote
Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods) they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want.

I find the questions about God the Son before the incarnation, and Jesus the Son of God after the incarnation, to be quite interesting. I admit that I am well out of my depth on those points though. Well, I suppose most of us are out of our depth on many points, but in this case I mean I have not even read or thought enough about it to hazard a guess. I'm sure others will come along with some thoughts, however.
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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2013, 01:56:30 PM »

why did god create lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve in the garden of eden leading to judas betraying jesus and his eventual crucifixition ?

Worldly beings experience time as one event after another.. First the cause and then later the effect, an Omniscient God should have known better seeing the future results.

But perhaps God's experience of time is not linear like ours. Maybe reality is more like a circle with God in the center. All his experiences are simultaneous. Everything happens at once. No cause or effect as we perceive it. A complete unified whole.

 

 
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« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2013, 02:03:02 PM »

I guess God isn't real in a sense, since he's uncreated and "in another state" from everything that he did create.
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« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2013, 02:12:18 PM »


This is what I've been doing throughout this thread
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« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2013, 02:43:16 PM »


Phil, instead of asking Internet strangers, why don't you ask your priest, your parents or your yiayia?

They may be better able to explain it to you.

I also feel that with maturity these things will make more sense to you.

After all, when you were really young you did what your parents told you without understanding the reasoning. Now that you are older you understand why you need to eat veggies, brush teeth, go to sleep on time...

In time you will also understand this. Don't lose faith.
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« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2013, 02:58:14 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.
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« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2013, 03:02:15 PM »

Phil, instead of asking Internet strangers, why don't you ask your priest, your parents or your yiayia?

Yiayias don't take kindly to those rude questions asked in this thread.
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« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2013, 03:02:56 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

This sounds like what an atheist I'm subscribed to on youtube says. Actually he's the only atheist I'm subscribed to...  but anyway. He says that even if he granted that Jesus died for humanity and was resurrected and there was a God and all that, that he still wouldn't become a Christian, because he finds the morality and such in the Bible to be reprehensible. Somehow this line of thinking makes more sense to me when coming from the mouth of an atheist...  Cool Huh
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« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2013, 03:15:20 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?

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« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2013, 03:17:26 PM »

Now that you are older you understand why you need to eat veggies, brush teeth, go to sleep on time...

I still haven't grasped this unfortunately...
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« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2013, 03:24:27 PM »

Normally, I would read this thread, however the spelling errors are so bad I couldn't be bothered to read more than four of phil's posts.

I would expect more from someone who's twenty-four years old. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MalRgJyY2QA (WARNING: foul language).
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« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2013, 03:34:17 PM »

I would expect more from someone who's twenty-four years old. 

How do we know that he's 24 years old?
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« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2013, 03:35:41 PM »

I would expect more from someone who's twenty-four years old.  

How do we know that he's 24 years old?
His username reveals that he was born on February 1, 1990.
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« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2013, 03:39:53 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?


Liza, I think you and I have understood JamesR somewhat differently. It seems to me that he's simply trying to grasp some things intellectually.

Quite frankly, there are some things that I don't like about the way God has done some things. However, I am the one who needs to adjust. Over the years some things eventually do make some sort of sense. And even if they don't, I realize that even my own record for doing things the way I'd really like to see them done is pretty dismal. I'm quite happy to let God do His job and trust that He knows more about it all than I do. I am reasonably confident that someday JamesR will get to the point where I'm at.

BTW, I really liked his blunt answer to the OP. It seems that youth can get away with some things, and we older folks can get away with others.
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« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2013, 04:26:42 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?



Not judging Him; just disagreeing with Him and not understanding Him. For example, I don't get the problem of suffering and I don't see what ends could possibly justify all the misery in the world, and I have trouble reconciling this to His "loving" character while He just sits idly by while we destroy ourselves. This goes along with the point of Creation in general: why do we have to exist? I never asked for existence. We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell. What if we simply don't like the game and would have preferred to have never come into existence? It seems like some people were just created for the purpose of keeping the furnace hot and I have trouble with this. I personally think the possibility of even one soul suffering in Hell forever is enough justification to have never created humanity at all. I don't get how the Church can say we were made in the "image and likeness" of God and are temples of the Holy Spirit and partakers of the Divine nature and all that stuff, while at the same time constantly teaching us to be ashamed of our bodies, desires, and preaching our fallennes. What did the Incarnation and Resurrection really achieve? Nothing seems different. People still sin like crazy, I'm still carrying the consequences of Adam and inclined toward sinfulness, my desires are all out of wack, it's still easier to do evil than to do good etc. I'm sick of goodness always being an uphill battle.

Quite frankly, I  sometimes can't help but see God as this bullyish, Divine puppet-master who created us for His own amusement, regardless of whatever pain we may feel. I don't see what respect God is entitled to just for creating us; millions of absentee, deadbeat fathers create children that they walk out on and no one respects them. God is no different.
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« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2013, 04:33:46 PM »

because i have no idea

Can we stop allowing juveniles on this board?

But I like it here Undecided
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« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2013, 04:44:33 PM »

We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell.

Man, regular hell sounds bad enough, I don't even want to be able to imagine what "Orthodox Hell" is like.  Is it like "Hell (x3)(x12)(x40)(x100)"?  Gives me the willies.
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« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2013, 04:48:50 PM »

We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell.

Man, regular hell sounds bad enough, I don't even want to be able to imagine what "Orthodox Hell" is like.  Is it like "Hell (x3)(x12)(x40)(x100)"?  Gives me the willies.

Don't say 'imagine'. James doesn't approve of imagination.
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2013, 05:54:02 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.

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« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2013, 05:57:12 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?

Is it time to quote St. John Chrysostom?

don't make me do it!
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« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2013, 06:00:01 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.

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OUSEPUNCTUATIONT
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(Translation: You and your newfangled Latin alphabet and fancy straight lines...)

Tongue
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« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2013, 06:21:53 PM »

My problem isn't with God's existence; you'd be stupid to deny it. My problem is with His character and whether or not I like Him and His way of handling the world.

So now we judge God?

Seriously?

You don't like the way He does things?



Not judging Him; just disagreeing with Him and not understanding Him. For example, I don't get the problem of suffering and I don't see what ends could possibly justify all the misery in the world, and I have trouble reconciling this to His "loving" character while He just sits idly by while we destroy ourselves. This goes along with the point of Creation in general: why do we have to exist? I never asked for existence. We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell. What if we simply don't like the game and would have preferred to have never come into existence? It seems like some people were just created for the purpose of keeping the furnace hot and I have trouble with this. I personally think the possibility of even one soul suffering in Hell forever is enough justification to have never created humanity at all. I don't get how the Church can say we were made in the "image and likeness" of God and are temples of the Holy Spirit and partakers of the Divine nature and all that stuff, while at the same time constantly teaching us to be ashamed of our bodies, desires, and preaching our fallennes. What did the Incarnation and Resurrection really achieve? Nothing seems different. People still sin like crazy, I'm still carrying the consequences of Adam and inclined toward sinfulness, my desires are all out of wack, it's still easier to do evil than to do good etc. I'm sick of goodness always being an uphill battle.

Quite frankly, I  sometimes can't help but see God as this bullyish, Divine puppet-master who created us for His own amusement, regardless of whatever pain we may feel. I don't see what respect God is entitled to just for creating us; millions of absentee, deadbeat fathers create children that they walk out on and no one respects them. God is no different.
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« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2013, 06:26:45 PM »

if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems

If we came on an atheist forum, sure. But here you're in an Orthodox forum, and you have a lot to learn, young grasshopper. Provided you hold your tongue long enough.

You can start with proper punctuation and capitalisation. It's very hard to be taken seriously when one writes like a primary-schooler.

YOUAREBARBARIANT
OUSEPUNCTUATIONT
RUEGRAMMARIANSTA
YWITHTHEOLDWAYS



(Translation: You and your newfangled Latin alphabet and fancy straight lines...)

Tongue

 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:26 PM »

theres obliously no reasoning with you guys so ill leave it to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE
You do realize that the Zeitgeist has been dismissed completely right, and not just religious zealots but by atheists themselves. Seems like most people have moved on to arguing certain historical elements of Christ rather than his nonexistence.

If you find the above convincing, then I will add you to the list of people I pray for.
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« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:26 PM »

We are born into a world with only two options, a) do what God says and be deified, or b) end up in a state of eternal Orthodox Hell.

Man, regular hell sounds bad enough, I don't even want to be able to imagine what "Orthodox Hell" is like.  Is it like "Hell (x3)(x12)(x40)(x100)"?  Gives me the willies.

Don't say 'imagine'. James doesn't approve of imagination.
Imagine there's no heaven or hell...

Oh not that imagine.
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« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:33 PM »

because i have no idea

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lol age requirement.
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« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2013, 08:19:02 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing

Arotikse ti yia yia,  boro nartho na fame arni mazi. Tha ferro to pastitso ti yia yia mou. Grin
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« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2013, 08:38:03 PM »

you can come on an atheist forum i welcome and i apoligize for my grammar but serously when we celebrate easter at my yaiyais ive really gotta ask my self how you ressurect a man who is incapable of dieing

Arotikse ti yia yia,  boro nartho na fame arni mazi. Tha ferro to pastitso ti yia yia mou. Grin
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« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2013, 08:47:12 PM »

I told him not to worry as long as there is Lamb and greek lasagna.

Good food, good meat , Good Lord, lets eat. Grin
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« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2013, 08:58:07 PM »

I told him not to worry as long as there is Lamb and greek lasagna.

Good food, good meat , Good Lord, lets eat. Grin
Mmmm, Lamb and Postitso. 

I should fly to Toronto tonight and demand that my Yiayia make me some. Tongue
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« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2013, 11:08:57 PM »

what do you guys think of judaism?

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« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2013, 11:12:57 PM »

Zeitgeist is so 2006; the "Jesus never said He was God/the Trinity is false" trend is more popular among atheists now, especially with those who feel drawn toward Islam.
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« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2013, 08:34:34 AM »

no the trinity is nonsense it is like water steam and ice the nicean creed confirms this so when i state that it is impossoble for jesus to die because he is "invincible" due to the fact that all three stages of his existence contain a godlike essence this is confirmed by the church they state that god is composed of one divinity so my question is how can an all powerful god be killed by humans with lesser faculties the answer is that he cannot and if he was crucified he would not be able to die because he is immortal if jesus is real then he must still be hanging on a cross and he would be able to heal anyones illness use is infinite knowledge to answer any question ect
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« Reply #97 on: August 04, 2013, 08:42:50 AM »

Two natures.
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« Reply #98 on: August 04, 2013, 08:46:44 AM »

no one nature
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« Reply #99 on: August 04, 2013, 08:47:15 AM »

no one nature

Ever heard of Chalcedon?
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« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2013, 08:48:05 AM »

no the trinity is nonsense it is like water steam and ice the nicean creed confirms this so when i state that it is impossoble for jesus to die because he is "invincible" due to the fact that all three stages of his existence contain a godlike essence this is confirmed by the church they state that god is composed of one divinity so my question is how can an all powerful god be killed by humans with lesser faculties the answer is that he cannot and if he was crucified he would not be able to die because he is immortal if jesus is real then he must still be hanging on a cross and he would be able to heal anyones illness use is infinite knowledge to answer any question ect

From Philippians ch. 2:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is what we believe and proclaim. Deal with it.
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« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2013, 08:50:31 AM »

ugh it is one nature and its nonsense it states that god is made of two very similar but not identical substances thats the same yet these subatances are not described in any way its one nature only a foolish person would believe this
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« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2013, 08:56:03 AM »

ugh it is one nature and its nonsense it states that god is made of two very similar but not identical substances thats the same yet these subatances are not described in any way its one nature only a foolish person would believe this

From 1 Corinthians ch. 1:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


This is what we believe and proclaim. Deal with it.
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« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2013, 08:59:52 AM »

can you cite the existence of jesus in a text outside the bible
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« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2013, 09:04:25 AM »

can you cite the existence of jesus in a text outside the bible

Lucian of Samosata, The Passing of Peregrinus.

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« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2013, 09:05:34 AM »

can you cite the existence of jesus in a text outside the bible

The first-century Roman-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus mentions Jesus in his writings. So does the Koran.
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« Reply #106 on: August 04, 2013, 09:06:11 AM »

these people are likely to have cited the bible or josephus which is a forgery
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« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2013, 09:07:10 AM »

yeah but the koran is another text in which mohammah exixtence cant even be verified and jesus is the most quoted prophet in the quoroan lol
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« Reply #108 on: August 04, 2013, 09:07:47 AM »

these people are likely to have cited the bible or josephus which is a forgery

Lucian of Samosata never read the Bible. Try again.
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« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2013, 09:08:32 AM »

these people are likely to have cited the bible or josephus which is a forgery

Which is a forgery - the works of Josephus, or the Bible? And where is your proof of this?
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« Reply #110 on: August 04, 2013, 09:11:04 AM »

yeah but the koran is another text in which mohammah exixtence cant even be verified and jesus is the most quoted prophet in the quoroan lol

So, according to you, God doesn't exist, Jesus doesn't exist, and we can't be sure about Mohammed having existed either. Hmmm.  Try running your ideas past a few Moslems and see how far you get.  Wink
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« Reply #111 on: August 04, 2013, 09:23:23 AM »

these people are likely to have cited the bible or josephus which is a forgery

Which is a forgery - the works of Josephus, or the Bible? And where is your proof of this?


And even if that part of Josephus would be a forgery he would still have to deal with The Passing of Peregrinus.
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« Reply #112 on: August 04, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »

these people are likely to have cited the bible or josephus which is a forgery

Which is a forgery - the works of Josephus, or the Bible? And where is your proof of this?


And even if that part of Josephus would be a forgery he would still have to deal with The Passing of Peregrinus.

I ain't letting Phil off that easily - he cries "forgery", he must prove it.  police
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« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2013, 11:24:07 AM »

can you cite the existence of jesus in a text outside the bible

Of course.

Or did you mean from a contemporary of Jesus? Then no, of course not.
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« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2013, 11:26:51 AM »

Two natures.

no one nature

You guys done did it now; I'll call your bluff and raise

Two natures and two wills perfectly united with each other
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« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2013, 12:08:33 PM »

ugh it is one nature and its nonsense it states that god is made of two very similar but not identical substances thats the same yet these subatances are not described in any way its one nature only a foolish person would believe this

So you're just going to insult people?

Again, why is he here?
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« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2013, 12:25:21 PM »

ugh it is one nature

And what would that one nature be?

and its nonsense it states that god is made of two very similar but not identical substances

Humanity and divinity are 'very similiar'?

only a foolish person would believe this

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.
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« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2013, 01:11:28 PM »

I suggest that the OP do some research on what Apostolic Christianity actually teaches and why it is taught. The Church has a fantastic intellectual tradition, and the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation were developed in the face of the kinds of objections being discussed in this thread.
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« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2013, 01:32:08 PM »

I am sorry if the OP had some bad experiences in his faith life. I urge him to give it another try, even if only bit by bit for starters. Pray for a few minutes. Stop by church for just part of a service. Read a half page of Scripture. Don't be afraid. We all get frustrated at times. I went through a period of darkness in my life, too. I am still very far from perfect. I just think it's worth giving faith more of a try. You can't do well at something if you stop doing it.
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« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2013, 10:14:09 AM »

Also, it took a couple of centuries to hammer out the doctrine of the Trinity and even some of the greatest saints struggled with it. So don't act all surprised that a semiliterate teenager in 2013 has trouble with it as well.  Grin
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« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2013, 10:28:02 AM »

Also, it took a couple of centuries to hammer out the doctrine of the Trinity and even some of the greatest saints struggled with it. So don't act all surprised that a semiliterate teenager in 2013 has trouble with it as well.  Grin
He doesn't even understand the basic principles of Orthodox Christianity.  How can you argue with someone who thinks we believe that the Talmud is "basically Old Testament?"

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2013, 10:34:44 AM »

Also, it took a couple of centuries to hammer out the doctrine of the Trinity and even some of the greatest saints struggled with it. So don't act all surprised that a semiliterate teenager in 2013 has trouble with it as well.  Grin
He doesn't even understand the basic principles of Orthodox Christianity.  How can you argue with someone who thinks we believe that the Talmud is "basically Old Testament?"

 Roll Eyes

You just answered your own question (I.e., you can't!)  Cool
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« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2013, 10:38:37 AM »

Also, it took a couple of centuries to hammer out the doctrine of the Trinity and even some of the greatest saints struggled with it. So don't act all surprised that a semiliterate teenager in 2013 has trouble with it as well.  Grin
He doesn't even understand the basic principles of Orthodox Christianity.  How can you argue with someone who thinks we believe that the Talmud is "basically Old Testament?"

 Roll Eyes

You cut him a break
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« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2013, 10:43:50 AM »

Also, it took a couple of centuries to hammer out the doctrine of the Trinity and even some of the greatest saints struggled with it. So don't act all surprised that a semiliterate teenager in 2013 has trouble with it as well.  Grin
He doesn't even understand the basic principles of Orthodox Christianity.  How can you argue with someone who thinks we believe that the Talmud is "basically Old Testament?"

 Roll Eyes

You cut him a break
I feel kind of sorry for him, he claims to have been Orthodox at one time, but he knows so little about the Faith.

Do people actually make educated decisions anymore?

Lord have Mercy.
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« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2013, 11:03:54 AM »

^This is not about the OP in particular, but it has been my general impression that the most frustrating debates to get into are with those who used to be on one side of something and now vehemently argue for the other side. Many people just seem to take it as a foregone conclusion that if they used to believe X, but have now rejected it, then that means they must have a substantial understanding of X, have some special insight into the problems with X, etc. In my experience Catholics who turned into Bible-believing Protestants seem to be the worst... or perhaps just the most numerous. YMMV.
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« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2013, 11:10:15 AM »

^This is not about the OP in particular, but it has been my general impression that the most frustrating debates to get into are with those who used to be on one side of something and now vehemently argue for the other side. Many people just seem to take it as a foregone conclusion that if they used to believe X, but have now rejected it, then that means they must have a substantial understanding of X, have some special insight into the problems with X, etc. In my experience Catholics who turned into Bible-believing Protestants seem to be the worst... or perhaps just the most numerous. YMMV.
Good point.

Some psych major somewhere in the world probably claims to know why.
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« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2013, 02:49:10 PM »

This is, by far, the best argument I have ever seen for atheism. The author is clearly an expert in the areas of biblical exegesis, Christian theology, and philosophy. I am sold.
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« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2013, 03:09:46 PM »

Okay first God knows everything not because He sees in the future but because He has no time. It's like He sees all the time at the same time but yet still not like that. It cannot be explained. Now God make miracles and help people that He knows that finally will go to hell. Why? Why He created the angels that would turn demons and us? Well it's because God has more hope than anyone. He has such hope that even if He sees the future for us He still hopes. He knows who will go to hell but still He hopes. He knows Adam and Eve would betray Him but still He hoped. Hope is the reason which comes from His love. Also there is free will.
Now about the other one. Jesus came not as God. He is both God and human but his human nature was crucified. He is full God and full Human and that means that He has also not just body but also a soul... Many thins Divinity came inside His body but no He has also a soul. For that His human nature was able to die.
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« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2013, 03:38:34 PM »

ugh it is one nature and its nonsense it states that god is made of two very similar but not identical substances thats the same yet these subatances are not described in any way its one nature only a foolish person would believe this

So you're just going to insult people?

Again, why is he here?

I thought there was some kind of prize for starting the most ridiculous thread.
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« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2013, 09:10:21 PM »

if god is all knowing why did he create lucifer knowing in  advance that he would revolt and tempt eve into eating the forbidden fruit and set the stage  for jesus's execution why was all of that necessary why didn't god just forgive mankind if he knew all of this was going to happen?  also MANY WORLDS QUANTAM MECHANICS SUGGESTS THAT WITH EVERY DECISION THAT A PERSON MAKES ON THEIR ON VOLITION WITH FREE WILL TWO PARALELL UNIVERSES OPEN UP ONE WHERE THE PERSON HAS MADE THAT DECISION AND ONE WHERE THEY HAVE NOT THEREFORE WE CAN SEE THAT GOD IS NOT THE ONLY ONE IWTH THE ABILITY TO CREATE UNIVERSES. AND THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THERE IS ONLY ONE UNIVERSE THAT IS FLAWED
 
On indefinite post moderation under very strong suspicion that you are another incarnation of phil2190.
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« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2013, 09:25:03 PM »

I am now living in a universe in which I made the decision to post in this thread. Worse conceivable universe to exist in.
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« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2013, 09:28:10 PM »

if god is all knowing why did he create lucifer knowing in  advance that he would revolt and tempt eve into eating the forbidden fruit and set the stage  for jesus's execution why was all of that necessary why didn't god just forgive mankind if he knew all of this was going to happen?  also MANY WORLDS QUANTAM MECHANICS SUGGESTS THAT WITH EVERY DECISION THAT A PERSON MAKES ON THEIR ON VOLITION WITH FREE WILL TWO PARALELL UNIVERSES OPEN UP ONE WHERE THE PERSON HAS MADE THAT DECISION AND ONE WHERE THEY HAVE NOT THEREFORE WE CAN SEE THAT GOD IS NOT THE ONLY ONE IWTH THE ABILITY TO CREATE UNIVERSES. AND THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THERE IS ONLY ONE UNIVERSE THAT IS FLAWED

The Bible doesn't "suggest" anything about one universe. The Hebrew word "הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם" is indicative of a plurality of Universes.

God could have just not created mankind and then mankind wouldn't rebel and God wouldn't have to kill His Son. The reason God did all of that is because He is merciful and He is loving. God did forgive mankind, but mankind went their own way anyway. Christ forgave the Jews, but they still crucified Him.
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« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2013, 09:29:35 PM »

I am now living in a universe in which I made the decision to post in this thread. Worse conceivable universe to exist in.

You aren't at least in the same universe as the OP, in which everything is capitalized or NOTHING IS.
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« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2013, 09:32:56 PM »


I thought there was some kind of prize for starting the most ridiculous thread.

If there was, phil2190 would have to share it with Gebre and his Obama/Harry Potter thread.  Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #134 on: August 17, 2013, 09:35:57 PM »

What if I cannot decide in this universe whether to post on this thread or not?  Am I still undecided in another universe? Shocked
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« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2013, 09:37:39 PM »

if god is all knowing why did he create lucifer knowing in  advance that he would revolt and tempt eve into eating the forbidden fruit and set the stage  for jesus's execution why was all of that necessary why didn't god just forgive mankind if he knew all of this was going to happen?

If you're going to accept "many worlds quantum mechanics", then this is a useless question.  There is a universe that exists in which God did not create Lucifer knowing in advance that he would revolt and tempt Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, etc.  Try asking your question on OCNet in that universe and see what they tell you.    

Quote
also MANY WORLDS QUANTAM MECHANICS SUGGESTS THAT WITH EVERY DECISION THAT A PERSON MAKES ON THEIR ON VOLITION WITH FREE WILL TWO PARALELL UNIVERSES OPEN UP ONE WHERE THE PERSON HAS MADE THAT DECISION AND ONE WHERE THEY HAVE NOT THEREFORE WE CAN SEE THAT GOD IS NOT THE ONLY ONE IWTH THE ABILITY TO CREATE UNIVERSES. AND THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THERE IS ONLY ONE UNIVERSE THAT IS FLAWED

Again, with "many worlds quantum mechanics", there's not just one Bible.  Every time someone wrote down one of the books, a universe came into being with that book and a universe without that book.  Repeat the process about 72 times, etc.  I refer you to those universes.  

 
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« Reply #136 on: August 17, 2013, 09:44:01 PM »

if god is all knowing why did he create lucifer knowing in  advance that he would revolt and tempt eve into eating the forbidden fruit and set the stage  for jesus's execution why was all of that necessary why didn't god just forgive mankind if he knew all of this was going to happen?

If you're going to accept "many worlds quantum mechanics", then this is a useless question.  There is a universe that exists in which God did not create Lucifer knowing in advance that he would revolt and tempt Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, etc.  Try asking your question on OCNet in that universe and see what they tell you.    

Quote
also MANY WORLDS QUANTAM MECHANICS SUGGESTS THAT WITH EVERY DECISION THAT A PERSON MAKES ON THEIR ON VOLITION WITH FREE WILL TWO PARALELL UNIVERSES OPEN UP ONE WHERE THE PERSON HAS MADE THAT DECISION AND ONE WHERE THEY HAVE NOT THEREFORE WE CAN SEE THAT GOD IS NOT THE ONLY ONE IWTH THE ABILITY TO CREATE UNIVERSES. AND THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THERE IS ONLY ONE UNIVERSE THAT IS FLAWED

Again, with "many worlds quantum mechanics", there's not just one Bible.  Every time someone wrote down one of the books, a universe came into being with that book and a universe without that book.  Repeat the process about 72 times, etc.  I refer you to those universes.  

 
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« Reply #137 on: August 17, 2013, 09:44:26 PM »

that means the bible did not happen nd god is not real
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« Reply #138 on: August 17, 2013, 09:46:46 PM »

Hang on a minute, we had another thread just recently on exactly the same topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52824.0.html

Is nintendo6941 the same person as phil2190?
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« Reply #139 on: August 17, 2013, 09:47:00 PM »

<IXJesusoX><
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« Reply #140 on: August 17, 2013, 09:48:11 PM »

no
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« Reply #141 on: August 17, 2013, 09:48:45 PM »

look the quantum mechanics makes so god is not real
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« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2013, 09:50:11 PM »

if god is all knowing why did he create lucifer knowing in  advance that he would revolt and tempt eve into eating the forbidden fruit and set the stage  for jesus's execution why was all of that necessary why didn't god just forgive mankind if he knew all of this was going to happen?  also MANY WORLDS QUANTAM MECHANICS SUGGESTS THAT WITH EVERY DECISION THAT A PERSON MAKES ON THEIR ON VOLITION WITH FREE WILL TWO PARALELL UNIVERSES OPEN UP ONE WHERE THE PERSON HAS MADE THAT DECISION AND ONE WHERE THEY HAVE NOT THEREFORE WE CAN SEE THAT GOD IS NOT THE ONLY ONE IWTH THE ABILITY TO CREATE UNIVERSES. AND THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THERE IS ONLY ONE UNIVERSE THAT IS FLAWED


This can be remedied and resolved for ... If you get a comprehensive review of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
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« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2013, 09:50:50 PM »

that means the bible did not happen nd god is not real

How did you reach that conclusion? Did Julius Caesar or the Roman empire happen? Did Ancient Greece happen? Those things are less likely from a Historical-Critical point of view than the Bible is.

That's from Bart Ehrman, the most critical Biblical scholar there is. (Reza Aslan isn't a scholar.)

Quote
Bart Ehrman interviews an Atheist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs

Suggestion: Can this thread be moved to the OTHER "why god is definitely not real" thread of the same name?

Quote
Hang on a minute, we had another thread just recently on exactly the same topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52824.0.html

Yes we did... Yes we did.

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look the quantum mechanics makes so god is not real

Archbishop Lazar is a Physicist, and I am sure he'd disagree with you.
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« Reply #144 on: August 17, 2013, 09:53:34 PM »

i didnt say you didnt have a similar discussion i just said i wasnt that person
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« Reply #145 on: August 17, 2013, 09:56:39 PM »

When I was a teenager we had this way of saying "You lie!" that was joking, because the lie was so transparent that it was barely worth even pointing out, but we would just to poke fun at the person. It's hard to get across the proper inflection on "lie" in text. Still... you lie!  Kiss
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« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2013, 09:59:03 PM »

that means the bible did not happen nd god is not real

LOL.
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« Reply #147 on: August 17, 2013, 10:00:02 PM »

Hang on a minute, we had another thread just recently on exactly the same topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52824.0.html

Is nintendo6941 the same person as phil2190?

I think they're from different universes, perhaps in a separate multiverse, in another dimension, which only exists on Tuesdays for some odd reason.
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« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2013, 10:03:30 PM »


I thought there was some kind of prize for starting the most ridiculous thread.

If there was, phil2190 would have to share it with Gebre and his Obama/Harry Potter thread.  Tongue Tongue

Wait, so Obama is Harry Potter? In this universe or another? (Does that mean that there's a universe where it's 19th century Russia all the time, because that would be awesome!)
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« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2013, 10:04:49 PM »

Hang on a minute, we had another thread just recently on exactly the same topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52824.0.html

Is nintendo6941 the same person as phil2190?

I think they're from different universes, perhaps in a separate multiverse, in another dimension, which only exists on Tuesdays for some odd reason.

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks!  Kiss Kiss Though might I offer a correction? Thursdays, my dear Shanghaiski, not Tuesdays. It must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.  Wink
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« Reply #150 on: August 17, 2013, 10:08:16 PM »

Hang on a minute, we had another thread just recently on exactly the same topic: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52824.0.html

Is nintendo6941 the same person as phil2190?

I think they're from different universes, perhaps in a separate multiverse, in another dimension, which only exists on Tuesdays for some odd reason.

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks!  Kiss Kiss Though might I offer a correction? Thursdays, my dear Shanghaiski, not Tuesdays. It must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.  Wink

LOL. Well that and Tuesdays are unlucky. The City fell on a Tuesday.
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« Reply #151 on: August 17, 2013, 10:28:20 PM »


I thought there was some kind of prize for starting the most ridiculous thread.

If there was, phil2190 would have to share it with Gebre and his Obama/Harry Potter thread.  Tongue Tongue

Wait, so Obama is Harry Potter? In this universe or another? (Does that mean that there's a universe where it's 19th century Russia all the time, because that would be awesome!)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52934.0.html

 Smiley
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« Reply #152 on: August 17, 2013, 10:35:08 PM »

that means the bible did not happen nd god is not real

When I was a kid and my Nintendo had this issue (screen blinking meaninglessly when switched on), I would open the top, take the game cartridge out, blow into it once or twice, replace the cartridge, and try again. 
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« Reply #153 on: August 17, 2013, 10:46:01 PM »

these people are likely to have cited the bible or josephus which is a forgery

Which is a forgery - the works of Josephus, or the Bible? And where is your proof of this?


He can't prove he himself is not some random emanation from another universe.
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« Reply #154 on: August 17, 2013, 11:01:11 PM »

that means the bible did not happen nd god is not real

When I was a kid and my Nintendo had this issue (screen blinking meaninglessly when switched on), I would open the top, take the game cartridge out, blow into it once or twice, replace the cartridge, and try again. 

On a recent episode (circa late June) of Late Night with Jimmy Fallon, Fallon played an old Nintendo cartridge like a harmonica.
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« Reply #155 on: August 17, 2013, 11:24:17 PM »

Why do we have two active threads with the same title? Does the OP has two accounts? It seems to me he does
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« Reply #156 on: August 17, 2013, 11:29:32 PM »

Why do we have two active threads with the same title? Does the OP has two accounts? It seems to me he does


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,53133.msg973072.html#msg973072

 Wink
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« Reply #157 on: August 18, 2013, 12:48:40 AM »

The creator does not need to express his thought directly in his work to reflect the quality of itself.
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« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2013, 02:22:00 AM »

look the quantum mechanics makes so god is not real

What?

And Quantum mechanics, is a mathematized abstraction. Do we really know that it describes the way things really are, or is it a useful mathematical model for making predictions? What if there is another paradigm shift in physics? Does your argument fall apart?
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« Reply #159 on: August 18, 2013, 02:23:18 AM »

I remember an atheist creating threads like this and multiple accounts a few years ago... I wonder if it is the same person.
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« Reply #160 on: August 18, 2013, 02:25:14 AM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
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« Reply #161 on: August 18, 2013, 05:21:29 AM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.
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« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2013, 09:45:53 AM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino

And every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings.  Cool
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« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2013, 09:47:22 AM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.

Not really.
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« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2013, 09:55:40 AM »

The God delusion in The Sims.  Smiley

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« Reply #165 on: August 18, 2013, 10:04:29 AM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.
The Intentionality of our minds seems to indicate otherwise.
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« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2013, 12:38:22 PM »

Im greek and im an atheist and my disbelief lies not in not wanting to be punished but throught careful critique of the bible i respect a christians right to believe in christ. I just have a few questions regarding the bible. First if god is ominisint that is he is all-knowing then why would he create the angel lucifer knowing he would revolt and tempt adam and eve to eat the fruit in the garden of even leading to christ's eventual crucifixition. Second is the question of freewill which many christians use to rebuttle the first question and that is if god knew that adam and eve were going to eat the fruit then what is the point of the narrative as a whole "the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" proverbs 16"9 from this we can see that god knew all along that lucifer would revolt, adam and eve would eat the fruit and that judas would betray him. Also if god is all powerful then when he came down to earth in the form of his son god as man or jesus christ he still has the qualities of what we will call a god( in the ten commandments thou shall have no gods before me implies there are other gods) they how can humans with inferior mortal faculties kill a god who is omnipitient if jesus is real he should still be alive on the cross and we should be able to ask him and question we want. if anybody has any objections to this logic i would be happy to debate them in a civil and noncritical way as i have stated i am tolerant of other peoples belief systems


That's actually not what Proverbs 16:9 states.   "He who does evil things is an abomination to a king, for the throne of a ruler is prepared with righteousness.  Righteous lips are acceptable to a king and he loves upright words."  Proverbs 16:8-9 (Orthodox Study Bible).

God is a mystery, the Trinity is a mystery.  The Orthodox never said it wasn't, but instead those of us who choose to accept Christianity have chosen to embrace the Mystery.  To accept that there is a God who loves us so much, that he chose to conquer death so that we might be forgiven.   C.S. Lewis once said that we should forgive others, because God chose to forgive the inexcusable in us.   

The Lord is also not stating that there are other gods when he issued the commandments on Exodus.   Yet Moses knew well, that in the minds and hearts of the Israelites that polytheism was not unheard of and so a commandment had to be issued.   "For all of the gods of the nations are demons, but the Lord made the heavens." (Psalm 95:5),  Instead of demons most Protestant bibles which use the Hebrew translation use the word "idols".    This is repeated throughout Scripture, we make gods after our own likeness, gods of gold, wood, and silver.  It doesn't mean they are real though except in our imaginations. 

Jesus is real, but he also took on a human nature.  How could the economy of salvation ever work out, if he were not also human?  He came to live with us, to dwell with us, to eat with us.  He was said to have cried tears of blood in Gethsamane, was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days as we are all tempted.    Yet he rose above it all because of his divine nature that was Pre-existent, and always was.    His Pre-Incarnate form is evidence throughout Scripture according to the Fathers, as the "angel of the LORD".   

But when it comes to the act of Faith itself,  I should know that it is very difficult.  You cannot come to belief on your own, but if you would give yourself a chance to attend Divine Liturgy and to pray you will eventually feel something.  Even if you don't know who or what you are praying to just yet, eventually that spark of Faith can be ignited in your heart.   Keep in mind that much as a flower, it must be fed and nurtured.  This is something I have had to learn as well in spite of all of the chaos going on in my mental, emotional, and spiritual life as some have taken note of by my previous posts on this Forum.
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« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2013, 12:43:07 PM »

can you cite the existence of jesus in a text outside the bible

If you had come into contact with God, when he spoke with you, and talked with you -- would your life not also radically be transformed that you yourself would follow him to the ends of the earth?  Then you know why most reliable testimonies are from strictly Christian sources.
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« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2013, 01:04:02 PM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.

Not really.
The universe through my eyes is different than yours.
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« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2013, 01:39:50 PM »

can you cite the existence of jesus in a text outside the bible
Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews: Book 18 Chapter 3
Tacitus: Annals: 15:44
Thallus: quoted by Julius Africanus: Extant Writings (Ante Nicean Fathers: by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson) (possible mention of the solar eclipse at the crucifixion)
Pliny the Younger: Letters
Talmud: Sanhedrin 43a p.281
Lucian: The Death of Peregrine: Works of Lucian of Samosata

Source (regrettably).
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« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2013, 01:42:58 PM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.

Not really.
The universe through my eyes is different than yours.

Your belief that your perception of blue is different than my perception of blue is different than my perception that my perception of blue is different than your perception of blue.
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« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2013, 01:48:36 PM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.

Not really.
The universe through my eyes is different than yours.

Your belief that your perception of blue is different than my perception of blue is different than my perception that my perception of blue is different than your perception of blue.
This+sig=win.

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« Reply #172 on: August 18, 2013, 02:08:09 PM »

I know the theory you are telling us about. It's one of the most funny ones.
But it's not real.  Grin
Tell me now. God wanted to forgive mankind. Yo uaks why He sent His Son? We have decided to stay away. To bring us back He wants us to say yes. He respects free will. Show the sacrifice was needed. Someone perfect. Sacrificing one hair of Christ could save us but He wanted to suffer so much to show His true love.
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« Reply #173 on: August 18, 2013, 06:56:30 PM »

"Every time a synapse fires, a universe is created" - Alberto Einsteino
Actually each one of us are in our own universe.

Not really.
The universe through my eyes is different than yours.
You sure about that?
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« Reply #174 on: August 18, 2013, 08:48:14 PM »

The thread would've been more interesting had it been "Why God is definitely not actual". Cool
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