OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 07:01:48 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: julian paschalion  (Read 413 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Daedelus1138
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 315


« on: August 03, 2013, 06:33:41 AM »

  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the logic of using the Julian Paschialion.  Doesn't it bother Orthodox that Pascha will eventually drift into summer and fall?

  In the west, there is a hymn that is ancient- Salve Festa Dies or "Hail Thee, Festival Day" that compares Christ's resurrection and conquering Hell and the grave with the end of winter and the return of spring (and for those who think the West only emphasizes the Crucifixion, I think this would show that there is indeed the same "Eastern", Christus Victor theme in the West).   In western piety there is a strong symbolism between resurrection and spring, at least in the northern hemisphere.  For good reason, I think Pope Gregory was concerned about the drift of Easter when he revised the Julian calendar.

  So how do the Orthodox deal with this, or do they ever plan to deal with it?  Usually my theology and thinking drifts Eastward, but on this point the logic or mindset of the Orthodox Church baffles me.  So enlighten me on this.
Logged
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 3,948


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 06:35:45 AM »

Easter is celebrated on the Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. How exactly will that drift into summer or fall? Huh
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Daedelus1138
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 315


« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 06:47:31 AM »

Easter is celebrated on the Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. How exactly will that drift into summer or fall? Huh

    Yes, that's what the Council of Nicea specified but for centuries, both East and West, the churches have used calendars, not actual astronomical observations, to determine the date of Pascha/Easter. (In the western churches, Protestant and Catholic, March 21st is used as the ecclessiatical equinox).   This is actually what the Gregorian Calendar was all about in the West- the Pope's astronomers demonstrated to him the drift of the Julian calendar and they convinced him the calendar needed to be changed.  The Julian Calendar loses a day every 133 years.  By the year 1500, the calendar was off by 10 days relative to the Council of Nicea's calculation of Easter.    

  No calculated calendar is perfectly accurate, but the Julian is not particularly accurate compared to world calendars.

   Where I live, Orthodox Pascha falls during summer weather, whereas Western Easter occurs with much more spring-like weather, because our summer heat starts early.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 06:48:37 AM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,014


« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 06:50:57 AM »

Of course, by the Julian reckoning Pascha stays within the spring. But what the OP is wondering about is what happens when Julian "spring" ends up in Gregorian summer, or fall, or winter. I.e. if we are celebrating Pascha while outside the leaves are falling and the days are lengthening, perhaps there is something wrong.

For my part, as a traditionalist, I argue that, if the celebration of Pascha really depends on spring weather, than by that logic, Orthodox in the southern hemisphere should invert the calendar. But then you lose the unity of worship which was the whole point of the original Paschal controversy.
Logged
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 3,948


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 06:52:23 AM »

I don't see what the weather has to do with it. In the Southern hemisphere, Easter is celebrated as winter closes in and Christmas on the beach. It doesn't matter a lick.

I don't care for Old Calendar squabblings myself, but if the shift becomes an issue, in a few centuries' time, that will be for the Church then to correct.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 07:12:25 AM »

Easter is celebrated on the Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. How exactly will that drift into summer or fall? Huh

    Yes, that's what the Council of Nicea specified but for centuries, both East and West, the churches have used calendars, not actual astronomical observations, to determine the date of Pascha/Easter.

IIRC in ancient times the date for Pascha was communicated each year by the Patriarchate of Alexandria (once the capital of astronomy) to the other Churches. In the Roman rite the date of the major feasts is still officially announced by a deacon each year at Epiphany, at the 1st Hour, or so I've seen it done by the Benedictines.   
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,573



WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 07:46:45 AM »


As long as the Orthodox are united, and all celebrate together, it matters not if its snowing, raining, hailing or sunny outside.

The Spring is within us.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Daedelus1138
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 315


« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 08:04:00 AM »


As long as the Orthodox are united, and all celebrate together, it matters not if its snowing, raining, hailing or sunny outside.

  I thought the word "orthodox", as used by Iranaeus of Lyons was about having the true teaching, not about the one most popular?  I'm not saying this to say Orthodox are necessarily wrong for having a Julian Paschalion, but the above mindset is disturbing because it betrays an uncritical attitude.   We cannot use appeal to majority or the consensus as a guide to truth.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:04:26 AM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
Santagranddad
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 987



« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 08:10:06 AM »

  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the logic of using the Julian Paschialion.  Doesn't it bother Orthodox that Pascha will eventually drift into summer and fall?

In short, no. In Christianity there are many that are hard to get your head around but as in life I don't need to have a molecular understanding of everything in order to live and interact with the world around.
Logged
Daedelus1138
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 315


« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 08:54:38 AM »

In short, no. In Christianity there are many that are hard to get your head around but as in life I don't need to have a molecular understanding of everything in order to live and interact with the world around.

So, the sanctification of time has nothing to do with the sanctification of the material world (the material world is the basis for our concept of time- we would not have it without the motion of stars and planets)   I realize there should be respect for tradition, but this principle in itself is not as important as seeing the world in the light of the Incarnation; it is much more deeply Christian than just sticking to tradition for its own sake.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:56:25 AM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.054 seconds with 36 queries.