OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 04:05:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?  (Read 332 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Greatest I am
Muted
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnostic
Posts: 394



« on: August 05, 2013, 05:11:28 PM »

If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pmArHBW9ns

Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL
Logged
Fabio Leite
Warned
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,440



WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 05:28:49 PM »

I think it's very impolite to go to a person's home to tell her everything is wrong there and they should move the furniture to how you see fit.

And, in this case, your "fit" is both shallow and wrong.

Absolute perfection belongs to God only. So, that kind of unchangeable perfection that could not fall exists in God only.

Human beings were created in relative perfection, meaning, we were created with all the potentials of human nature fully actualized, although still within limits of human nature. And human nature fell. And that's what we, including you, need salvation from.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:29:11 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Go ma minions of modesty!
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 06:00:26 PM »

Quote
I think it's very impolite to go to a person's home to tell her everything is wrong there and they should move the furniture to how you see fit.

Then don't read or reply to his posts if you are offended. Problem solved.
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,437


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 06:36:23 PM »

If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?
Eastern Christianity is different on this matter than Western Christianity following Augustine, as Bishop Kallistos Ware explains (cf. especially the quote from St. Iranaeus):

Quote from: Bishop Kallistos Ware
"Image and Likeness. According to most of the Greek Fathers, the terms image and likeness do not mean exactly the same thing. ‘The expression according to the image,’ wrote John of Damascus, ‘indicates rationality and freedom, while the expression according to the likeness indicates assimilation to God through virtue (On the Orthodox Faith, 2, 12 (P.G. 94, 920B). ...

The image denotes the powers with which every man is endowed by God from the first moment of his existence; the likeness is not an endowment which man possesses from the start, but a goal at which he must aim, something which he can only acquire by degrees. However sinful a man may be, he never loses the image; but the likeness depends upon our moral choice, upon our ‘virtue,’ and so it is destroyed by sin.

Man at his first creation was therefore perfect, not so much in an actual as in a potential sense. Endowed with the image from the start, he was called to acquire the likeness by his own efforts (assisted of course by the grace of God). Adam began in a state of innocence and simplicity. ‘He was a child, not yet having his understanding perfected,’ wrote Irenaeus. ‘It was necessary that he should grow and so come to his perfection (Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, 12). God set Adam on the right path, but Adam had in front of him a long road to traverse in order to reach his final goal.

This picture of Adam before the fall is somewhat different from that presented by Saint Augustine and generally accepted in the west since his time. According to Augustine, man in Paradise was endowed from the start with all possible wisdom and knowledge: his was a realized, and in no sense potential, perfection. The dynamic conception of Irenaeus clearly fits more easily with modern theories of evolution than does the static conception of Augustine; but both were speaking as theologians, not as scientists...

...Because he is an icon of God, each member of the human race, even the most sinful, is infinitely precious in God’s sight. ‘When you see your brother,’ said Clement of Alexandria (died 215), ‘you see God’ (Stromateis, 1, 19 (94, 5)). And Evagrius taught: ‘After God, we must count all men as God Himself (On Prayer, 123 (P.G. 79, 1193C)). This respect for every human being is visibly expressed in Orthodox worship, when the priest censes not only the icons but the members of the congregation, saluting the image of God in each person. ‘The best icon of God is man (P. Evdokimov, L’Orthodoxie, p. 218)." -Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church, ch. 2
.

Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.
Perhaps you have in mind the Protestant/Calvinist view of Penal Satisfaction?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 06:41:44 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,235


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 07:31:23 PM »

Creation was and is an ongoing process. Adam and Eve were created as templates--as a beginning and rudimentary form to be perfected. They decided, and we all decide, to resist God, who molds the clay of our soul and body, yet God continues working on us. This creative process, through grace, has been going on in humanity since the beginning of our species, and will go on into eternity. So to for us as individuals: God has been working on us since birth, and will continue after death. Put another way, there was a time when God started the creative process, but there will never be a time when he will stop it, for going forward he will continue trying to perfect us. Humans could not be made as perfect as God, or at least in the same way, for such is impossible for created beings; yet God will continue leading us towards that perfection, and help us get closer and closer to that goal.
Logged

"I haven't done anything wrong, and I won't be hounded by you and your soulless minions of orthodoxy! I haven't broken any laws... except perhaps the laws of nature." - Dr. Elias Giger
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 567



« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2013, 10:15:19 PM »

Quote
Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

If you think this accurately sums up the core of the Christian faith, it is obvious you are only taking into consideration what has been taught and believed in the various confessions of western Christianity.


Here is an except from the essay River of Fire by Kalamiros. I think it may speak to your concerns:
Quote
What is the Western dogma of salvation? Did not God kill God in order to satisfy His pride, which the Westerners euphemistically call justice? And is it not by this infinite satisfaction that He deigns to accept the salvation of some of us?

    What is salvation for Western theology? Is it not salvation from the wrath of God? 2

    Do you see, then, that Western theology teaches that our real danger and our real enemy is our Creator and God? Salvation, for Westerners, is to be saved from the hands of God!

    How can one love such a God? How can we have faith in someone we detest? Faith in its deeper essence is a product of love, therefore, it would be our desire that one who threatens us not even exist, especially when this threat is eternal.

    Even if there exists a means of escaping the eternal wrath of this omnipotent but wicked Being (the death of His Son in our stead), it would be much better if this Being did not exist. This was the most logical conclusion of the mind and of the heart of the Western peoples, because even eternal Paradise would be abhorrent with such a cruel God.

The Orthodox have a different understanding of the sacrifice of Christ and our relationship to God. You may read the whole essay here: http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm. I hope you find it encouraging and reconsider what you have thought about what is and is not the Christian faith.

Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,890


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 12:36:59 AM »

Perfect in potential
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Greatest I am
Muted
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnostic
Posts: 394



« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 05:00:40 AM »

I think it's very impolite to go to a person's home to tell her everything is wrong there and they should move the furniture to how you see fit.

And, in this case, your "fit" is both shallow and wrong.

Absolute perfection belongs to God only. So, that kind of unchangeable perfection that could not fall exists in God only.

Human beings were created in relative perfection, meaning, we were created with all the potentials of human nature fully actualized, although still within limits of human nature. And human nature fell. And that's what we, including you, need salvation from.

We all fall!!

Is that not a hint to you?

It is said , if I may adlib,  that if someone continues to do the same thing while expecting a different outcome, he is insane.

Your God just keeps doing the same thing and creating, to you, a flawed human, and that means that he is insane.

Try to refute.

Regards
DL
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.082 seconds with 36 queries.