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Question: Do you agree with Ecumenism between the EO, RC & OO traditions?
Yes to all - 35 (48.6%)
No to all - 19 (26.4%)
EO & OO only - 17 (23.6%)
EO & RC only - 1 (1.4%)
OO & RC only - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 72

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Author Topic: Ecumenism vs anti-Ecumenism  (Read 10418 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: August 05, 2013, 11:08:59 PM »

Since attempting to explain in detail the errors in an argument is apparently "pretentious and snotty" , perhaps the mods should just lift the rules against using personal attacks, rudeness and name calling so that we could all get to the real point of the internet.

Which is of course a never ending game of "Gotcha."

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« Reply #181 on: August 05, 2013, 11:32:41 PM »

P.S. I seems to me, William, that you're trying awfully hard to capitalize off of my mistaken assumption (which is, I supposed, your right, but it seems pretty foolish to me). Obviously, I said "I don't get you Orthodox" thinking that I was addressing two Orthodox posters. Had I realized that one of them is, well, whatever-you-are, I probably would have addressed the criticism to just Podkarpatska.

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« Reply #182 on: August 06, 2013, 06:22:34 AM »

Since attempting to explain in detail the errors in an argument is apparently "pretentious and snotty" ,

Yes, attempting to explain errors in an argument is pretentious and snotty. How did you know that's exactly what I meant?

[/sarcasm]

But seriously, this ^^ kind of response is no great surprise to me, given my past dealings with Orthodox posters.

Btw, who are you even quoting?
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« Reply #183 on: August 06, 2013, 06:30:43 AM »

What's not to get?

Well, there could be many answers to that question; but right now I would say: the snooty attitude of a lot of "ecumenists" ... or rather, the unwritten rule on this forum that those of us who aren't Orthodox haven't any right to complain about said "ecumenists".
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« Reply #184 on: August 06, 2013, 09:07:26 AM »

What's not to get?

Well, there could be many answers to that question; but right now I would say: the snooty attitude of a lot of "ecumenists" ... or rather, the unwritten rule on this forum that those of us who aren't Orthodox haven't any right to complain about said "ecumenists".
Yeah I don't get it either. But not everyone speaking on this thread should all be grouped together as ecumenists, even if they call themselves ecumenists. I personally tred to avoid any inclination of a snooty attitude but that isn't always successful.

Anyways, the only way to combat a snooty attitude is humility. So if anyone perceived my comments as snooty, I sincerely apologize. (No pretentious lecturing here. This is the genuine attitude all "ecumenists" (and every Christian) must have.
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« Reply #185 on: August 06, 2013, 09:38:04 AM »

Anyways, the only way to combat a snooty attitude is humility.

Fair enough. I admit I don't always turn the other cheek.
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« Reply #186 on: August 06, 2013, 10:01:33 AM »

I find that in times like these, it is best to just post a large picture referencing heresy and then move on to another thread.  Nothing solves problems like telling everyone they are heretics.  I think St. Paul said that somewhere...  Grin

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« Reply #187 on: August 06, 2013, 11:29:16 AM »

That fellow does not have a beard! 
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« Reply #188 on: August 06, 2013, 05:13:29 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?
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« Reply #189 on: August 06, 2013, 05:36:08 PM »

I haven't participated in any Ecumenism at all.
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« Reply #190 on: August 06, 2013, 05:52:30 PM »

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

Let me count the ways...
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« Reply #191 on: August 06, 2013, 06:32:54 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

To use the analogy I've most often heard from EO, sin is missing the mark. I assume you would agree with this. Heresy is embracing some false doctrine in opposition to the truth of Orthodoxy. There are many ways by which we might miss the mark in our living the Christian life that do not involve embracing false doctrines. Stealing, committing adultery, harboring hatred in our hearts, or bearing false witness against another aren't necessarily connected to, say, denying the divinity or uncreatedness of Christ, or arguing that a "bad" priest's sacraments are no longer true sacraments, or whatever else. (Though, interestingly, I have heard more than once apostasy being referred to as "spiritual adultery" in Coptic circles, so I could see how some such connections could be made).
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« Reply #192 on: August 06, 2013, 06:52:19 PM »

Though, interestingly, I have heard more than once apostasy being referred to as "spiritual adultery" in Coptic circles.

Isn't that what apostasy/disbelief/heresy are likened to throughout the entire Bible? The Book of Hosea in particular.
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« Reply #193 on: August 06, 2013, 07:02:13 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

To use the analogy I've most often heard from EO, sin is missing the mark. I assume you would agree with this. Heresy is embracing some false doctrine in opposition to the truth of Orthodoxy. There are many ways by which we might miss the mark in our living the Christian life that do not involve embracing false doctrines. Stealing, committing adultery, harboring hatred in our hearts, or bearing false witness against another aren't necessarily connected to, say, denying the divinity or uncreatedness of Christ, or arguing that a "bad" priest's sacraments are no longer true sacraments, or whatever else. (Though, interestingly, I have heard more than once apostasy being referred to as "spiritual adultery" in Coptic circles, so I could see how some such connections could be made).

There is also what Jesus taught in this parable, Luke 18
The Pharisee and Tax Collector

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So it is also here where Jesus warns against putting oneself above other faithful sinners.The issue in my humble opinion is also how we should put others ahead of ourselves and love our enemies, there are many ways we are taught not to judge by the Gospels.

What I hear and read about these issues seems exactly what he warned against, our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

We are no more capable of judging a Protestant or Catholic a heretic than the Pharisee was of the above tax collector IMHO.And the same goes for them. Let us find what common ground we can build love of one another instead of acting puffed up about ourselves.
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« Reply #194 on: August 06, 2013, 08:03:23 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

St. Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15 declares himself to be chief among sinners, writing, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." Yet in Galatians 1:8, he writes, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." In titus 3:10-11, Paul writes, "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." St. John the Apostle writes in 2 John 1:9-11, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." Your idea simply has no scriptural basis.
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« Reply #195 on: August 06, 2013, 08:09:11 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

To use the analogy I've most often heard from EO, sin is missing the mark. I assume you would agree with this. Heresy is embracing some false doctrine in opposition to the truth of Orthodoxy. There are many ways by which we might miss the mark in our living the Christian life that do not involve embracing false doctrines. Stealing, committing adultery, harboring hatred in our hearts, or bearing false witness against another aren't necessarily connected to, say, denying the divinity or uncreatedness of Christ, or arguing that a "bad" priest's sacraments are no longer true sacraments, or whatever else. (Though, interestingly, I have heard more than once apostasy being referred to as "spiritual adultery" in Coptic circles, so I could see how some such connections could be made).

There is also what Jesus taught in this parable, Luke 18
The Pharisee and Tax Collector

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So it is also here where Jesus warns against putting oneself above other faithful sinners.The issue in my humble opinion is also how we should put others ahead of ourselves and love our enemies, there are many ways we are taught not to judge by the Gospels.

What I hear and read about these issues seems exactly what he warned against, our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

We are no more capable of judging a Protestant or Catholic a heretic than the Pharisee was of the above tax collector IMHO.And the same goes for them. Let us find what common ground we can build love of one another instead of acting puffed up about ourselves.

We do not judge them as the pharisee did to the publican, thinking ourselves superior to them, but we are to test their teaching (as we are taught to do by the scriptures), and if their teaching is not in accord with the Apostolic faith, then we are to declare them to be anathema, and to deny them communion with the faithful. The sentiment expressed in your posts is not in accord with the Holy Tradition or the Scriptures.
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« Reply #196 on: August 06, 2013, 08:15:36 PM »

So it is also here where Jesus warns against putting oneself above other faithful sinners.The issue in my humble opinion is also how we should put others ahead of ourselves and love our enemies, there are many ways we are taught not to judge by the Gospels.

What I hear and read about these issues seems exactly what he warned against, our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

We are no more capable of judging a Protestant or Catholic a heretic than the Pharisee was of the above tax collector IMHO.And the same goes for them. Let us find what common ground we can build love of one another instead of acting puffed up about ourselves.

The "judging" of someone as a heretic is not a character judgment in theory, even if it often becomes so in practice.  It is the evaluation of a belief as "sinful", as missing the mark, as not leading us toward God.  We need to be able to identify false teachings as false in order to underscore the truth of the truth, not to be led astray, and to reach out to those who have such false teachings and call them to embrace the truth.  

This is different from what the Pharisee was doing in the parable you cited.  In that situation, the Pharisee was clearly making a judgement on the personal character of the Publican versus his own.  The faith wasn't in question.  But in the case of heretical teachings, the faith is at stake.  I'm reminded of the following story from the life of Abba Agatho:

Quote
They said of Abba Agatho that some people went to him because they heard he was a man of much discretion. And wanting to test whether he was irritable, they said to him: “Are you Agatho? We have heard of you that you are an adulterer and an arrogant man.” And he answered: “It is true.” And they said to him: “Are you that Agatho who gossips and slanders?” And he answered: “I am.” And they asked him: “Are you Agatho the heretic?” And he answered: “I am no heretic.”

And they asked him: “Tell us, why did you patiently endure us when we so abused you, but did not endure when we said you were a heretic?” And he answered: “I assented to the first charges against myself—it is for the good of my soul. But I did not agree when you said I was a heretic because that is to be separated from God, and I do not want to be separated from God.” They admired his discretion, and went away edified.

Owen Chadwick, translator.  The Sayings of the Fathers (Westminster Press, 1958), pp. 106-107.  

 

We may not hold Protestants or Roman Catholics personally culpable for heresy, but that's not the same as identifying their beliefs as heretical.  We need to do that, if it is in fact the case, without judging people.  But most of us are not capable of doing this effectively, because we are not able to identify wrong without priding ourselves on being right.  
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« Reply #197 on: August 06, 2013, 08:24:46 PM »

our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

I wouldn't go that far (and I'm a Catholic).
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« Reply #198 on: August 06, 2013, 08:32:24 PM »

our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

I wouldn't go that far (and I'm a Catholic).

Pope John Paul II, God bless his soul thought there was reason enough to apologize to the EO, and also admit mistake in the case of Galileo's excommunication.

He seemed to have a spirit of love for all that I am talking about here.
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« Reply #199 on: August 06, 2013, 10:35:17 PM »

our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

I wouldn't go that far (and I'm a Catholic).

Pope John Paul II, God bless his soul thought there was reason enough to apologize to the EO, and also admit mistake in the case of Galileo's excommunication.

True. What he didn't say is that the Orthodox Church "has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other".
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« Reply #200 on: August 07, 2013, 09:56:36 AM »

Since attempting to explain in detail the errors in an argument is apparently "pretentious and snotty" ,

Yes, attempting to explain errors in an argument is pretentious and snotty. How did you know that's exactly what I meant?

[/sarcasm]

But seriously, this ^^ kind of response is no great surprise to me, given my past dealings with Orthodox posters.

Btw, who are you even quoting?

Well, you don't have to answer that; but if you're going to quote you should do it right. Putting in the word "snotty" changes the meaning.
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« Reply #201 on: August 07, 2013, 10:18:16 AM »

Btw, who are you even quoting?

Well, you don't have to answer that;

So I guess you were able to re-read replies 166, 167, 172, 175, 176, 178.

Quote
but if you're going to quote you should do it right. Putting in the word "snotty" changes the meaning.

A valid point, but seeing as it's a one-letter difference from what you actually wrote, there must be a fairer interpretation of the error.

Edit: tags
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« Reply #202 on: August 07, 2013, 11:02:04 AM »

Btw, who are you even quoting?

Well, you don't have to answer that;

So I guess you were able to re-read replies 166, 167, 172, 175, 176, 178.

I'm not sure what you mean. Re-read for what purpose?
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« Reply #203 on: August 07, 2013, 02:17:23 PM »

Never mind, it's not important. 
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« Reply #204 on: August 07, 2013, 02:21:14 PM »

Putting in the word "snotty" changes the meaning.

You said "snooty" which is basically the same word as "snotty", both in meaning and in origin. Much like the words "saucy" and "sassy." 
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« Reply #205 on: August 07, 2013, 06:15:27 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

To use the analogy I've most often heard from EO, sin is missing the mark. I assume you would agree with this. Heresy is embracing some false doctrine in opposition to the truth of Orthodoxy. There are many ways by which we might miss the mark in our living the Christian life that do not involve embracing false doctrines. Stealing, committing adultery, harboring hatred in our hearts, or bearing false witness against another aren't necessarily connected to, say, denying the divinity or uncreatedness of Christ, or arguing that a "bad" priest's sacraments are no longer true sacraments, or whatever else. (Though, interestingly, I have heard more than once apostasy being referred to as "spiritual adultery" in Coptic circles, so I could see how some such connections could be made).

There is also what Jesus taught in this parable, Luke 18
The Pharisee and Tax Collector

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So it is also here where Jesus warns against putting oneself above other faithful sinners.The issue in my humble opinion is also how we should put others ahead of ourselves and love our enemies, there are many ways we are taught not to judge by the Gospels.

What I hear and read about these issues seems exactly what he warned against, our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

We are no more capable of judging a Protestant or Catholic a heretic than the Pharisee was of the above tax collector IMHO.And the same goes for them. Let us find what common ground we can build love of one another instead of acting puffed up about ourselves.

We do not judge them as the pharisee did to the publican, thinking ourselves superior to them, but we are to test their teaching (as we are taught to do by the scriptures), and if their teaching is not in accord with the Apostolic faith, then we are to declare them to be anathema, and to deny them communion with the faithful. The sentiment expressed in your posts is not in accord with the Holy Tradition or the Scriptures.

That is what the Priests said who condemned our Lord Jesus, among others such as the apostles Paul and Peter, for the same reasons you state, that their teaching was not in accord with Jesus chosen faith of Jewish law.

Do you not think it enough that God will take care of the judgement of their sins, we also have the example of the prodigal son, we should be as the father and love the sinner, not as the brother who said rightfully all that the prodigal had done, but God said welcome him .

St paul and St peter also disagreed about Jewish law concerning the new Church, so there is precedent for what divides us with other Christians.
It would be as you say if they were not christians, but as they have faith that the lord Jesus died for their sins we should accept them, they say the same things about us, so all you are doing is choosing sides, only God can see the truth.
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« Reply #206 on: August 07, 2013, 09:52:22 PM »

Putting in the word "snotty" changes the meaning.

You said "snooty" which is basically the same word as "snotty", both in meaning and in origin. Much like the words "saucy" and "sassy." 

OIC. (I guess I've tended to think of "snotty" as meaning something more like, churlish and snarky.)
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« Reply #207 on: August 07, 2013, 10:38:25 PM »

they say the same things about us, so all you are doing is choosing sides, only God can see the truth.

This, also, seems rather pretentious to me.
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« Reply #208 on: August 08, 2013, 05:04:04 AM »

Wow, a couple of months away from the fray and what fun I've missed! I always wanted to be a judge and, since judgmentalism is apparently in vogue, I can finally be one angel (I know, I know, being angelic doesn't really extend to the level I want to achieve, but we don't have an appropriately judgely emoticon, so it will have to do).

While E/ecumenism has always been a topic sure to evoke opinion hereabouts, I have to say that this thread may go down in the annals as particularly classic, not least for some of the incredibly well-thought out observations by those who are fully cognizant of the risks to one's immortal soul that arise from dialoguing in any way, shape, or manner with them there heretics - whomever they be  Roll Eyes .

My own opinions, clearly wrong-headed (and no surprise that is, me being an EC - likely more heretical than even a Latin), are much akin to those expressed by Mor Ephrem among others. No surprise, since my long-time affection for Phil as a friend and brother, itself evidence of heresy, undoubtedly colored my opinion. What was I thinking - agreeing with the words and opinions of a Miaphysite Roll Eyes

I'll pray to get past that.

Oh wait, podkarpatska, another one - from that other camp of heretics - whom I've called friend and brother and with whom I've dialogued! I thought his words mirrored much of my own thoughts also - silly me! Thank goodness, I've yet, perhaps, time to repent.

I hope they themselves, heretics though they are to me, can yet repent for consorting with me and be saved - well, maybe not saved, because they are what they are - oh well  Embarrassed .

I'm so grateful that William and JamesR were kind enough to show me the error of engaging with those of other Apostolic Churches. I realize their intent was to save their own peoples from the wayward paths they've pursued, but even a Catholic can benefit from realizing the risks inherent in ecumenism.

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.

It's not my wont to post snarky commentary but I have to admit that reading this thread (partially, I had to give up after 3  screens) was mentally debilitating. That there continue to be those in any of our communities who believe that ecumenism in the sense of dialoguing with our separated brethren (and we are each separated in many ways, just as we are joined in many ways) as a step toward understanding one another and, hopefully, prayerfully, eventually, achieving union in faith is off-putting to God, amazes me.

What do people think God meant when He exhorted the Apostles to go forth and teach all nations? Why do you think that we pray for the unity of the faith? How do you reconcile your ability to achieve those ends with an insularity that brooks no effort to understand and know those whom you wish to bring into unity? Ultimately, as has been said before, true communion and true unity comes only with unity of faith and belief - but, you cannot hope to accomplish or achieve or attain that if you hold, at arm's length, those whom you would bring into spiritual embrace. Anathemas and didactics are poor tools for convincing humans, whom God has endowed with free will and the ability to think critically, to understand what man can never fully understand - you must engage his mind, his heart, and his soul - and that is best done by demonstrating the rightness of what you preach, dialoguing with him to achieve it, and understanding that while Christ established His Church, men have administered it, and holy though they might have been, they are human and perfection is a goal that will always have eluded them.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #209 on: August 08, 2013, 09:13:14 AM »

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.

Always happy to help.


... Of course, I'm not sure how much I've really helped you, considering the conclusions that I seem to have led you into.




Heh heh. No, but seriously, I will bow before your superiority in both wisdom and humor.
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« Reply #210 on: August 08, 2013, 12:38:21 PM »

My own opinions, clearly wrong-headed (and no surprise that is, me being an EC - likely more heretical than even a Latin), are much akin to those expressed by Mor Ephrem among others. No surprise, since my long-time affection for Phil as a friend and brother, itself evidence of heresy, undoubtedly colored my opinion. What was I thinking - agreeing with the words and opinions of a Miaphysite Roll Eyes

Welcome back!  And pick better friends!

Quote
What do people think God meant when He exhorted the Apostles to go forth and teach all nations? Why do you think that we pray for the unity of the faith? How do you reconcile your ability to achieve those ends with an insularity that brooks no effort to understand and know those whom you wish to bring into unity? Ultimately, as has been said before, true communion and true unity comes only with unity of faith and belief - but, you cannot hope to accomplish or achieve or attain that if you hold, at arm's length, those whom you would bring into spiritual embrace. Anathemas and didactics are poor tools for convincing humans, whom God has endowed with free will and the ability to think critically, to understand what man can never fully understand - you must engage his mind, his heart, and his soul - and that is best done by demonstrating the rightness of what you preach, dialoguing with him to achieve it, and understanding that while Christ established His Church, men have administered it, and holy though they might have been, they are human and perfection is a goal that will always have eluded them.

But that's too hard.  Unlike polemics, it requires more than 140 characters.  
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« Reply #211 on: August 08, 2013, 12:45:20 PM »

Wow, a couple of months away from the fray and what fun I've missed! I always wanted to be a judge and, since judgmentalism is apparently in vogue, I can finally be one angel (I know, I know, being angelic doesn't really extend to the level I want to achieve, but we don't have an appropriately judgely emoticon, so it will have to do).

While E/ecumenism has always been a topic sure to evoke opinion hereabouts, I have to say that this thread may go down in the annals as particularly classic, not least for some of the incredibly well-thought out observations by those who are fully cognizant of the risks to one's immortal soul that arise from dialoguing in any way, shape, or manner with them there heretics - whomever they be  Roll Eyes .

My own opinions, clearly wrong-headed (and no surprise that is, me being an EC - likely more heretical than even a Latin), are much akin to those expressed by Mor Ephrem among others. No surprise, since my long-time affection for Phil as a friend and brother, itself evidence of heresy, undoubtedly colored my opinion. What was I thinking - agreeing with the words and opinions of a Miaphysite Roll Eyes

I'll pray to get past that.

Oh wait, podkarpatska, another one - from that other camp of heretics - whom I've called friend and brother and with whom I've dialogued! I thought his words mirrored much of my own thoughts also - silly me! Thank goodness, I've yet, perhaps, time to repent.

I hope they themselves, heretics though they are to me, can yet repent for consorting with me and be saved - well, maybe not saved, because they are what they are - oh well  Embarrassed .

I'm so grateful that William and JamesR were kind enough to show me the error of engaging with those of other Apostolic Churches. I realize their intent was to save their own peoples from the wayward paths they've pursued, but even a Catholic can benefit from realizing the risks inherent in ecumenism.

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.

It's not my wont to post snarky commentary but I have to admit that reading this thread (partially, I had to give up after 3  screens) was mentally debilitating. That there continue to be those in any of our communities who believe that ecumenism in the sense of dialoguing with our separated brethren (and we are each separated in many ways, just as we are joined in many ways) as a step toward understanding one another and, hopefully, prayerfully, eventually, achieving union in faith is off-putting to God, amazes me.

What do people think God meant when He exhorted the Apostles to go forth and teach all nations? Why do you think that we pray for the unity of the faith? How do you reconcile your ability to achieve those ends with an insularity that brooks no effort to understand and know those whom you wish to bring into unity? Ultimately, as has been said before, true communion and true unity comes only with unity of faith and belief - but, you cannot hope to accomplish or achieve or attain that if you hold, at arm's length, those whom you would bring into spiritual embrace. Anathemas and didactics are poor tools for convincing humans, whom God has endowed with free will and the ability to think critically, to understand what man can never fully understand - you must engage his mind, his heart, and his soul - and that is best done by demonstrating the rightness of what you preach, dialoguing with him to achieve it, and understanding that while Christ established His Church, men have administered it, and holy though they might have been, they are human and perfection is a goal that will always have eluded them.

Many years,

Neil

Well.....That oughtta rattle a few cages around here GrinVery well said, Neil!!  I stand and applaud you.
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« Reply #212 on: August 08, 2013, 03:18:34 PM »

Ecumenists really like straw men. It's easier that way, I suppose.

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Neil, why are you so bitter about James and I when you've shown respect and admiration for those even more polemical than us? What about Fr. Ambrose? He thought about the same of your communion as I do.

Also, parody should really only be used if it's remotely clever.
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« Reply #213 on: August 08, 2013, 03:26:57 PM »

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Will Jesus do?

Luke 9
49 John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."

Apology accepted.
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« Reply #214 on: August 08, 2013, 03:32:54 PM »

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Will Jesus do?

No.
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« Reply #215 on: August 08, 2013, 03:35:38 PM »

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Will Jesus do?

No.

See the first and last lines of my previous post.
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« Reply #216 on: August 08, 2013, 03:37:16 PM »

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Will Jesus do?

No.

See the first and last lines of my previous post.

See my last post. 
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« Reply #217 on: August 08, 2013, 03:55:09 PM »

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Will Jesus do?

No.

See the first and last lines of my previous post.

See my last post. 
See my last post too.
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« Reply #218 on: August 08, 2013, 04:01:28 PM »

Ecumenists really like straw men. It's easier that way, I suppose.

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Neil, why are you so bitter about James and I when you've shown respect and admiration for those even more polemical than us? What about Fr. Ambrose? He thought about the same of your communion as I do.

Also, parody should really only be used if it's remotely clever.

You don't seem to appreciate the distinction between bitterness and justified sarcastic condescension, which is a hallmark of classic polemics. You and others, invited a polemic responses to your hypotheses by refusing to acknowledge the possibility of common ground while leaving room for honest disagreement.

Hence the need for a polemical response designed to defend my understanding of the issue while establishing the falsity of your premise.

If strong rhetoric backed by factual allegations (which you are free to refute rather than simply hiding behind  a asnarky "ad hominem" ) is viewed by you and others as being "pretentious and snotty", well all I can say is good luck in graduate or law school and be sure to post your doctoral defense on Twitter or YouTube. No doubt it would be a viral sensation.

Thank you brother Neil.

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« Reply #219 on: August 08, 2013, 04:02:25 PM »

I haven't participated in any Ecumenism at all.

That is very laudable. Keep the Holy Orthodox Faith, Wesley.
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« Reply #220 on: August 08, 2013, 04:10:34 PM »

Ecumenists really like straw men. It's easier that way, I suppose.

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Neil, why are you so bitter about James and I when you've shown respect and admiration for those even more polemical than us? What about Fr. Ambrose? He thought about the same of your communion as I do.

Also, parody should really only be used if it's remotely clever.

You don't seem to appreciate the distinction between bitterness and justified sarcastic condescension, which is a hallmark of classic polemics. You and others, invited a polemic responses to your hypotheses by refusing to acknowledge the possibility of common ground while leaving room for honest disagreement.

Hence the need for a polemical response designed to defend my understanding of the issue while establishing the falsity of your premise.

If strong rhetoric backed by factual allegations (which you are free to refute rather than simply hiding behind  a asnarky "ad hominem" ) is viewed by you and others as being "pretentious and snotty", well all I can say is good luck in graduate or law school and be sure to post your doctoral defense on Twitter or YouTube. No doubt it would be a viral sensation.

Thank you brother Neil.



ECUMENICAL HERESY!!!
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« Reply #221 on: August 08, 2013, 04:47:27 PM »

Ecumenists really like straw men. It's easier that way, I suppose.

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Neil, why are you so bitter about James and I when you've shown respect and admiration for those even more polemical than us? What about Fr. Ambrose? He thought about the same of your communion as I do.

Also, parody should really only be used if it's remotely clever.

You don't seem to appreciate the distinction between bitterness and justified sarcastic condescension, which is a hallmark of classic polemics. You and others, invited a polemic responses to your hypotheses by refusing to acknowledge the possibility of common ground while leaving room for honest disagreement.

Hence the need for a polemical response designed to defend my understanding of the issue while establishing the falsity of your premise.

If strong rhetoric backed by factual allegations (which you are free to refute rather than simply hiding behind  a asnarky "ad hominem" ) is viewed by you and others as being "pretentious and snotty", well all I can say is good luck in graduate or law school and be sure to post your doctoral defense on Twitter or YouTube. No doubt it would be a viral sensation.

Thank you brother Neil.



ECUMENICAL HERESY!!!



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« Reply #222 on: August 08, 2013, 04:52:38 PM »

Read Cavaradossi's posts if you want to know what the "unity of faith" language REALLY means. Find me one Father who said that such language meant ecumenism (or unity with other denominations/sects) and I'll recant right here in this thread.

Will Jesus do?

Luke 9
49 John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."

Apology accepted.


St. Augustine interprets this passage not to mean that schism and heresy are excusable and good, but rather that those who perform works in Christs' name should not be forbidden from doing so, insofar as they spread the name of Christ in so doing.

Quote
But, in good truth, the sense intended to be conveyed is just this, that, so far as a man is not with Him, so far is he against Him; and again, that, so far as a man is not against Him, so far is he with Him. For example, take this very case of the individual who was working miracles in the name of Christ, and yet was not in the company of Christ's disciples: so far as this man was working miracles in His name, so far was he with them, and so far he was not against them. But, inasmuch as they had prohibited the man from doing a thing in which, so far forth, he was really with them, the Lord said to them, "Forbid him not." For what they ought to have forbidden was what was outside their fellowship, so that they might bring him over to the unity of the Church, and not a thing like this, in which he was at one with them, that is to say, so far as he commended the name of their Master and Lord in the casting out of devils. And this is the principle on which the Catholic Church acts, not condemning common sacraments among heretics; for in these they are with us, and they are not against us. But she condemns and forbids division and separation, or any sentiment adverse to peace and truth. For therein they are against us, just because they are not with us in that, and because, not gathering with us, they are consequently scattering.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602405.htm

The same most blessed and august Augustine commenting on the parallel passage from the Gospel of Mark also teaches that the man was akin to the unbaptized who help do the works of Christ (Mark 9:41), but not like heretics (Mk 9:42), who unlike this man are deserving of scorn (or in the words of Christ, to have a millstone hung around their necks and be cast into the depths of the sea). However, St. Augustine also very plainly states that those who are not incorporated into the unity of Christ's Body ought not think that they are safe and secure in their position.

Quote
This makes it plain that even this man, whose case John had taken up, and thus had given occasion for the Lord to commence the discourse referred to, was not separating himself from the society of the disciples to any such effect as to scorn it like a heretic. But his position was something parallel to the familiar one of men who, while not going the length yet of receiving the sacraments of Christ, nevertheless favour the Christian name so far as even to receive Christians, and accommodate themselves to them for this very reason, and none other, that they are Christian; of which type of persons it is that He tells us that they do not lose their reward. This does not mean, however, that they ought at once to think themselves quite safe and secure simply on account of this kindness which they cherish towards Christians, while at the same time they are neither cleansed by Christ's baptism, nor incorporated into the unity of His body.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602406.htm

And St. Cyril in his commentary on the same passage, gives no indication at all that it could mean that those outside of the Church are capable of doing pleasing works in Christs' name, but rather he understands the passage to mean that one needs not clerical status within the Church in order to work miracles, but that even the laity may do this. Accordingly, he interprets the phrase, "not walking with us," to mean that the apostles meant that the man had not been ordained to the office of an Apostle or teacher, writing:

Quote
What therefore is the meaning of his "not walking with us," or what is the force of the expression? Look then; for I will tell you as well as I can. The Saviour gave the holy Apostles authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all disease and all sickness among the people. And so they did; nor was the grace given them ineffectual. For they returned with joy, saying; "Lord, even the devils are subject to us in Thy name." They imagined, therefore, that leave was given not to any one else but to themselves alone to be invested with the authority which He had granted them. For this reason they draw near, and want to learn, whether others also might exercise it, even though they had not been appointed to the apostleship, nor even to the office of teacher.

St. Cyril finishes his homily on this passage by encouraging the faithful to seek after the ministry and wonder-working grace of those living holy lives within the Church, and who hold to the Orthodox faith (as opposed to seeking after heretics outside of the Church).

Quote
But when thou seest one who has been brought up in the church, innocent, simple, without hypocrisy, whose mode of life is worthy of emulation, who is known of many as the companion of holy monks, who flees from the arts of the city, who is fond of desert places, who loves not gain, nor schisms, and, besides all this, has a correct faith, and is made honourable by the grace of Christ, through the operation of the Holy Ghost, so as to be even able to work those things that are by Christ; unto such a one draw near with confidence: he shall pray for thee purely, and his grace shall minister unto thee. For the Saviour and Lord of all grants the requests of those who ask Him: by Whom and with whom to God the Father be praise and dominion, with the Holy Ghost, for ever and ever, Amen.

Frankly your cocky if not infantile attitude is unwarranted, especially when you are twisting the scriptures in heretical ways foreign to the interpretations of holy fathers and to the mind of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #223 on: August 08, 2013, 04:56:38 PM »

Cavaradossi is a bro.
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« Reply #224 on: August 08, 2013, 04:59:22 PM »

In another thread we were discussing St.John Chrysostom's Fourth prayer, which is to be read privately during the liturgy before receiving Holy Communion. Part of the prayer says we declare ourselves the chief sinner.

How can the chief sinner therefore declare someone else a heretic?

To use the analogy I've most often heard from EO, sin is missing the mark. I assume you would agree with this. Heresy is embracing some false doctrine in opposition to the truth of Orthodoxy. There are many ways by which we might miss the mark in our living the Christian life that do not involve embracing false doctrines. Stealing, committing adultery, harboring hatred in our hearts, or bearing false witness against another aren't necessarily connected to, say, denying the divinity or uncreatedness of Christ, or arguing that a "bad" priest's sacraments are no longer true sacraments, or whatever else. (Though, interestingly, I have heard more than once apostasy being referred to as "spiritual adultery" in Coptic circles, so I could see how some such connections could be made).

There is also what Jesus taught in this parable, Luke 18
The Pharisee and Tax Collector

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So it is also here where Jesus warns against putting oneself above other faithful sinners.The issue in my humble opinion is also how we should put others ahead of ourselves and love our enemies, there are many ways we are taught not to judge by the Gospels.

What I hear and read about these issues seems exactly what he warned against, our Church has as many reasons to be embarrassed as any other in the context of the two thousand years of sin.

We are no more capable of judging a Protestant or Catholic a heretic than the Pharisee was of the above tax collector IMHO.And the same goes for them. Let us find what common ground we can build love of one another instead of acting puffed up about ourselves.

We do not judge them as the pharisee did to the publican, thinking ourselves superior to them, but we are to test their teaching (as we are taught to do by the scriptures), and if their teaching is not in accord with the Apostolic faith, then we are to declare them to be anathema, and to deny them communion with the faithful. The sentiment expressed in your posts is not in accord with the Holy Tradition or the Scriptures.

That is what the Priests said who condemned our Lord Jesus, among others such as the apostles Paul and Peter, for the same reasons you state, that their teaching was not in accord with Jesus chosen faith of Jewish law.

Do you not think it enough that God will take care of the judgement of their sins, we also have the example of the prodigal son, we should be as the father and love the sinner, not as the brother who said rightfully all that the prodigal had done, but God said welcome him .

St paul and St peter also disagreed about Jewish law concerning the new Church, so there is precedent for what divides us with other Christians.
It would be as you say if they were not christians, but as they have faith that the lord Jesus died for their sins we should accept them, they say the same things about us, so all you are doing is choosing sides, only God can see the truth.

The Church was given the authority to judge and expel heretics from the Church by the power to bind and loose, and the power of the keys given to Peter. Notice, however, that I did not say the power to damn people, but only the power to judge (and penance them accordingly) and/or expel them from communion with the faithful.
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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
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