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Poll
Question: Do you agree with Ecumenism between the EO, RC & OO traditions?
Yes to all - 35 (48.6%)
No to all - 19 (26.4%)
EO & OO only - 17 (23.6%)
EO & RC only - 1 (1.4%)
OO & RC only - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 72

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Author Topic: Ecumenism vs anti-Ecumenism  (Read 10465 times) Average Rating: 0
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Santagranddad
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« Reply #270 on: August 28, 2013, 06:05:48 AM »

Not so much generals negotiating but clerical diplomats, with as the term diplomat suggests the ability to look two ways at once. You cannot horse trade around truth, nor may faithful Orthodox Christians yoke Truth with falsehood in the name of a false love.
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« Reply #271 on: August 28, 2013, 08:23:23 PM »

Ecumenism is bad. Look how many support it in this pole. Lord protect us.
The union with other fake churches will become true if only they accept the truth.

Which "pole" are you talking about? Does he have a name?
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« Reply #272 on: August 28, 2013, 08:54:16 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox.  Sure, we can do one by one, but how is that one doing?  Much better when whole groups of people are brought in, like in Guatemala.   It is a joke that this forum has people who, by their own words think that God is evil and yet rail against "ecumenism" (i.e. dialoguing with others) or the EP.     
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« Reply #273 on: August 29, 2013, 01:19:59 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox. 

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.
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« Reply #274 on: August 29, 2013, 01:22:40 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox. 

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.
We may not know the fate of any particular person, but Scripture is quite clear that it is a narrow path to Christ and a broad path to destruction.
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« Reply #275 on: August 29, 2013, 02:57:09 PM »

... but Scripture is quite clear that ...

See:

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.
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« Reply #276 on: August 29, 2013, 03:15:26 PM »

... but Scripture is quite clear that ...

See:

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you are trying to say.  I am merely saying that the reason that EO or RC would do ecumenical outreach is to bring those outside the Church into a greater understanding of the Church.  I think Father H was trying to say the same thing.  We don't need to have a perfect knowledge of truth to bring people to the Church, we merely need to trust that the Church can do a better job of safeguarding their souls than they can do on their own.
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« Reply #277 on: August 29, 2013, 03:35:27 PM »

Perhaps I misunderstood what you are trying to say.  I am merely saying that the reason that EO or RC would do ecumenical outreach is to bring those outside the Church into a greater understanding of the Church.  I think Father H was trying to say the same thing. 

Do you agree that that's incompatible with the statement "Only God can see the truth"?
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« Reply #278 on: August 29, 2013, 03:45:09 PM »

Perhaps I misunderstood what you are trying to say.  I am merely saying that the reason that EO or RC would do ecumenical outreach is to bring those outside the Church into a greater understanding of the Church.  I think Father H was trying to say the same thing. 

Do you agree that that's incompatible with the statement "Only God can see the truth"?
Are you asking if ecumenism is incompatible with "Only God can see truth"

If so, I would say: No, why would it be?
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« Reply #279 on: August 29, 2013, 03:51:20 PM »

If so, I would say: No, why would it be?

So noted.
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« Reply #280 on: August 29, 2013, 03:55:53 PM »

If so, I would say: No, why would it be?

So noted.
lol, do you disagree? 

Offtopic:  I had a boss that would request a whole bunch of documentation from me so she could review and when I would finally get it compiled and present it in written form, she would just write Noted on the top and that was it.  I never was able to figure out if that was an approval or disapproval.
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« Reply #281 on: August 29, 2013, 04:16:29 PM »

lol, do you disagree? 

lol to you too.

I don't want to get into a whole thing with you (note that, since you responded to my post to Father H, I though it fitting to respond. But I think this thread had a weird vibe even before that). Let me just say that I'm not sure it is my place to say on this forum whether the statement in question, "all you are doing is choosing sides, only God can see the truth", is right or wrong.
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« Reply #282 on: August 30, 2013, 10:03:21 AM »

If so, I would say: No, why would it be?

So noted.
lol, do you disagree? 

Offtopic:  I had a boss that would request a whole bunch of documentation from me so she could review and when I would finally get it compiled and present it in written form, she would just write Noted on the top and that was it.  I never was able to figure out if that was an approval or disapproval.

That's just what she wanted - to keep you off balance!  Grin
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« Reply #283 on: August 30, 2013, 01:23:52 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox. 

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.

"Ecumenism" is a horribly ambiguous term, so let me clarify.   

The most dangerous form of "ecumenism" that which pushes a new-age religion of syncretism.  Many say they don't know how people are drawn away from the Church to ecumenism, it must be because its wishy-washy.   But ecumenical syncretism is not at all wishy-washy or lukewarm, but rather strongly anti-dogma, anti-creed, etc.  People are drawn to this illegitimate form, however, in my opinion, initially for good reasons.  Even without discussing eternal prospects, it is plain for most to see that the majority of mankind is already "in hell," and in need of a Savior.  The problem is that people who don't come to know Christ don't see the Savior as a person, but rather substitute for a "thing" (ecumenical syncretism on some level) that "unites people."  Of course, we know in reality that it simply creates further division, because it is not based on the One who saves, and unity with Him in body and soul, indeed, in unity of the Faith with the Faithful One, within His Body the Church by the Holy Spirit.  But those who don't encounter the Church in this way, and haven't encountered Christ therein, look to ecumenism as an answer to the human problem.

That being said, dialogue is very important as is loving communication with others.   Eventually, all of the Donatists were brought back in (or died out in their separatism) to the Church due to "ecumenical dialogue," which took place within the bounds of the Canons of Carthage.   

But very dangerous is any form of dialogue where the faiths themselves must be considered equal. But there is dialogue where we recognize that God's Holy Church as the ark of salvation while also recognizing that all are called to salvation and are loved by God and equally are in need of union with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.   Therefore, while the people who dialogue cannot recognize contradictory points of faith as equal, they can recognize themselves as equals in that all share the human nature, and equals as fellow humans in need of God's grace.  But if others want us to recognize another faith as equal to that of Orthodox Christianity before they will sit down with us, then we cannot sit down with them.         

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« Reply #284 on: August 30, 2013, 01:45:06 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox. 

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.

"Ecumenism" is a horribly ambiguous term, so let me clarify.   

The most dangerous form of "ecumenism" that which pushes a new-age religion of syncretism.  Many say they don't know how people are drawn away from the Church to ecumenism, it must be because its wishy-washy.   But ecumenical syncretism is not at all wishy-washy or lukewarm, but rather strongly anti-dogma, anti-creed, etc.  People are drawn to this illegitimate form, however, in my opinion, initially for good reasons.  Even without discussing eternal prospects, it is plain for most to see that the majority of mankind is already "in hell," and in need of a Savior.  The problem is that people who don't come to know Christ don't see the Savior as a person, but rather substitute for a "thing" (ecumenical syncretism on some level) that "unites people."  Of course, we know in reality that it simply creates further division, because it is not based on the One who saves, and unity with Him in body and soul, indeed, in unity of the Faith with the Faithful One, within His Body the Church by the Holy Spirit.  But those who don't encounter the Church in this way, and haven't encountered Christ therein, look to ecumenism as an answer to the human problem.

That being said, dialogue is very important as is loving communication with others.   Eventually, all of the Donatists were brought back in (or died out in their separatism) to the Church due to "ecumenical dialogue," which took place within the bounds of the Canons of Carthage.   

But very dangerous is any form of dialogue where the faiths themselves must be considered equal. But there is dialogue where we recognize that God's Holy Church as the ark of salvation while also recognizing that all are called to salvation and are loved by God and equally are in need of union with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.   Therefore, while the people who dialogue cannot recognize contradictory points of faith as equal, they can recognize themselves as equals in that all share the human nature, and equals as fellow humans in need of God's grace.  But if others want us to recognize another faith as equal to that of Orthodox Christianity before they will sit down with us, then we cannot sit down with them.         

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too type of conversation. That is to say, it seems that you guys are happy to play the "only God can see the truth" card when it serves to paint me (and, I'm guessing, a couple other people, like Papist or The Young Fogey) as an arrogant person who thinks that "We Catholics can see that [the truth] just as well as He [God] can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones", and yet you won't accept the logical consequences of "only God can see the truth".
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« Reply #285 on: August 30, 2013, 01:47:39 PM »

... but Scripture is quite clear that ...

See:

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you are trying to say.  I am merely saying that the reason that EO or RC would do ecumenical outreach is to bring those outside the Church into a greater understanding of the Church.  I think Father H was trying to say the same thing.  We don't need to have a perfect knowledge of truth to bring people to the Church, we merely need to trust that the Church can do a better job of safeguarding their souls than they can do on their own.

Right.  Ecumenical dialogue exercised in accord with the bounds of the Church is a good thing.  However, when people do not see the Church as executing its mandate to preach the Gospel to all creation and to make disciples of every nation (or, in short, to bring people to Christ), then they will look for alternatives.  It is there that the exercise of legitimate ecumenical dialogue turns into a push for ecumenical syncretism (whether it be Christian syncretism, or worse yet, syncretism with even non-Christian religions).  This is why we need to do a better job of outreach to bring people to Christ, that in His Body He may abide in them and they in Him in the fullness of the Mystery of the Faith.  
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« Reply #286 on: August 30, 2013, 01:52:15 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox. 

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.

"Ecumenism" is a horribly ambiguous term, so let me clarify.   

The most dangerous form of "ecumenism" that which pushes a new-age religion of syncretism.  Many say they don't know how people are drawn away from the Church to ecumenism, it must be because its wishy-washy.   But ecumenical syncretism is not at all wishy-washy or lukewarm, but rather strongly anti-dogma, anti-creed, etc.  People are drawn to this illegitimate form, however, in my opinion, initially for good reasons.  Even without discussing eternal prospects, it is plain for most to see that the majority of mankind is already "in hell," and in need of a Savior.  The problem is that people who don't come to know Christ don't see the Savior as a person, but rather substitute for a "thing" (ecumenical syncretism on some level) that "unites people."  Of course, we know in reality that it simply creates further division, because it is not based on the One who saves, and unity with Him in body and soul, indeed, in unity of the Faith with the Faithful One, within His Body the Church by the Holy Spirit.  But those who don't encounter the Church in this way, and haven't encountered Christ therein, look to ecumenism as an answer to the human problem.

That being said, dialogue is very important as is loving communication with others.   Eventually, all of the Donatists were brought back in (or died out in their separatism) to the Church due to "ecumenical dialogue," which took place within the bounds of the Canons of Carthage.   

But very dangerous is any form of dialogue where the faiths themselves must be considered equal. But there is dialogue where we recognize that God's Holy Church as the ark of salvation while also recognizing that all are called to salvation and are loved by God and equally are in need of union with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.   Therefore, while the people who dialogue cannot recognize contradictory points of faith as equal, they can recognize themselves as equals in that all share the human nature, and equals as fellow humans in need of God's grace.  But if others want us to recognize another faith as equal to that of Orthodox Christianity before they will sit down with us, then we cannot sit down with them.         

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too type of conversation. That is to say, it seems that you guys are happy to play the "only God can see the truth" card when it serves to paint me (and, I'm guessing, a couple other people, like Papist or The Young Fogey) as an arrogant person who thinks that "We Catholics can see that [the truth] just as well as He [God] can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones", and yet you won't accept the logical consequences of "only God can see the truth".
What exactly do you see as being the logical consequences of "Only God can see the truth?"  Certainly, the Orthodox do not say that truth is completely hidden, just that humanity only sees it imperfectly.  I would not presume to say that I have the same ability as God to discern truth.
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« Reply #287 on: August 30, 2013, 02:09:52 PM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox.  

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.

"Ecumenism" is a horribly ambiguous term, so let me clarify.  

The most dangerous form of "ecumenism" that which pushes a new-age religion of syncretism.  Many say they don't know how people are drawn away from the Church to ecumenism, it must be because its wishy-washy.   But ecumenical syncretism is not at all wishy-washy or lukewarm, but rather strongly anti-dogma, anti-creed, etc.  People are drawn to this illegitimate form, however, in my opinion, initially for good reasons.  Even without discussing eternal prospects, it is plain for most to see that the majority of mankind is already "in hell," and in need of a Savior.  The problem is that people who don't come to know Christ don't see the Savior as a person, but rather substitute for a "thing" (ecumenical syncretism on some level) that "unites people."  Of course, we know in reality that it simply creates further division, because it is not based on the One who saves, and unity with Him in body and soul, indeed, in unity of the Faith with the Faithful One, within His Body the Church by the Holy Spirit.  But those who don't encounter the Church in this way, and haven't encountered Christ therein, look to ecumenism as an answer to the human problem.

That being said, dialogue is very important as is loving communication with others.   Eventually, all of the Donatists were brought back in (or died out in their separatism) to the Church due to "ecumenical dialogue," which took place within the bounds of the Canons of Carthage.    

But very dangerous is any form of dialogue where the faiths themselves must be considered equal. But there is dialogue where we recognize that God's Holy Church as the ark of salvation while also recognizing that all are called to salvation and are loved by God and equally are in need of union with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.   Therefore, while the people who dialogue cannot recognize contradictory points of faith as equal, they can recognize themselves as equals in that all share the human nature, and equals as fellow humans in need of God's grace.  But if others want us to recognize another faith as equal to that of Orthodox Christianity before they will sit down with us, then we cannot sit down with them.        

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too type of conversation. That is to say, it seems that you guys are happy to play the "only God can see the truth" card when it serves to paint me (and, I'm guessing, a couple other people, like Papist or The Young Fogey) as an arrogant person who thinks that "We Catholics can see that [the truth] just as well as He [God] can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones", and yet you won't accept the logical consequences of "only God can see the truth".

What are you talking about?  I never "painted" you or the others as any such thing.  I would appreciate you treating me as a person, as I do to you.  I don't really know how you tried to apply what I said initially to the idea that "only God can see the truth."  I was not even part of that conversation nor was I commenting on it.  "Only God can see the truth."  While I did not like this statement as used here in several places due to the fact that it can be misleading or misapplied, I cannot call it untrue, because it is true in the same sense that Christ is "the only sinless one" and "alone is holy" in the words of the Liturgy.  Since the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is God, and only God can see the truth, therefore the Body of Christ--Body of God--can likewise see the truth.  He said "you (i.e. the Apostles and the Apostolic Church) shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."  This is because only Christ knows the truth and therefore we can only know the truth fully if we are engrafted into Him.  In other words, the Church consists of those who are engrafted into Christ, and it is only in this full communion that we can know the truth (or be holy, etc.)  
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« Reply #288 on: August 30, 2013, 03:26:06 PM »

they say the same things about us, so all you are doing is choosing sides, only God can see the truth.

This, also, seems rather pretentious to me.

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.

What exactly do you see as being the logical consequences of "Only God can see the truth?"  Certainly, the Orthodox do not say that truth is completely hidden, just that humanity only sees it imperfectly.  I would not presume to say that I have the same ability as God to discern truth.

What are you talking about?  I never "painted" you or the others as any such thing.  I would appreciate you treating me as a person, as I do to you.  I don't really know how you tried to apply what I said initially to the idea that "only God can see the truth."  I was not even part of that conversation nor was I commenting on it.  "Only God can see the truth."  While I did not like this statement as used here in several places due to the fact that it can be misleading or misapplied, I cannot call it untrue, because it is true in the same sense that Christ is "the only sinless one" and "alone is holy" in the words of the Liturgy.  Since the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is God, and only God can see the truth, therefore the Body of Christ--Body of God--can likewise see the truth.  He said "you (i.e. the Apostles and the Apostolic Church) shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."  This is because only Christ knows the truth and therefore we can only know the truth fully if we are engrafted into Him.  In other words, the Church consists of those who are engrafted into Christ, and it is only in this full communion that we can know the truth (or be holy, etc.) 

Wow.

Father H, I could point out that my last post said "you guys" not "you Father H", but I feel it would be pointless; just as I think it would be pointless for me to comment on what you said about the statement "Only God can see the truth." I think that, no matter what I say, I'll never get a fair shake on this thread.
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« Reply #289 on: August 30, 2013, 03:38:13 PM »

I am so confused right now.   Huh

I did not in any way intend to insult you, but now I at least see what quotes that you are referring back to.  I didn't realize that the recent comments were in reference to your exchange with Sinful Hypocrite.

 I am pretty sure I agree with much of what you have written on this thread (except for the more recent things that I think are due more to a misunderstanding of the point you were trying to make than anythign else)  Maybe my brain is just in short circuit mode, it is Friday, after all.  Smiley

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« Reply #290 on: August 30, 2013, 04:25:25 PM »

they say the same things about us, so all you are doing is choosing sides, only God can see the truth.

This, also, seems rather pretentious to me.

And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better. We Catholics can see that just as well as He can, apparently - and not a complete surprise either, seeing as we're the Chosen Ones  Grin.

What exactly do you see as being the logical consequences of "Only God can see the truth?"  Certainly, the Orthodox do not say that truth is completely hidden, just that humanity only sees it imperfectly.  I would not presume to say that I have the same ability as God to discern truth.

What are you talking about?  I never "painted" you or the others as any such thing.  I would appreciate you treating me as a person, as I do to you.  I don't really know how you tried to apply what I said initially to the idea that "only God can see the truth."  I was not even part of that conversation nor was I commenting on it.  "Only God can see the truth."  While I did not like this statement as used here in several places due to the fact that it can be misleading or misapplied, I cannot call it untrue, because it is true in the same sense that Christ is "the only sinless one" and "alone is holy" in the words of the Liturgy.  Since the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is God, and only God can see the truth, therefore the Body of Christ--Body of God--can likewise see the truth.  He said "you (i.e. the Apostles and the Apostolic Church) shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."  This is because only Christ knows the truth and therefore we can only know the truth fully if we are engrafted into Him.  In other words, the Church consists of those who are engrafted into Christ, and it is only in this full communion that we can know the truth (or be holy, etc.) 

Wow.

Father H, I could point out that my last post said "you guys" not "you Father H", but I feel it would be pointless; just as I think it would be pointless for me to comment on what you said about the statement "Only God can see the truth." I think that, no matter what I say, I'll never get a fair shake on this thread.

You were replying to me when you said "you guys," hence including me in the accusation.  You initially replied to a post of mine that had nothing to do with whether "only God can see the truth" and then drew me unwillingly into that conversation (which was a sidebar to the thread, not an initial component of the op), and then include me with "you guys."  You have some sort of persecution complex and now have imposed it on me.  Shame on you. 
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« Reply #291 on: September 08, 2013, 04:45:56 AM »

When you discuss with heretics you do not see who is right, you just discuss to make them see the right.
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« Reply #292 on: September 08, 2013, 10:29:56 PM »

When you discuss with heretics you do not see who is right, you just discuss to make them see the right.

I have also found that extensive discussions of any topic tends to only reinforce one's own beliefs while rejecting the other.  Having said that, when it comes to faith we must be very careful not to involve ourselves into compromising positions.  This happens when we 'want' to please those who we are discussing differences with instead of bringing to light those truths that have been believed by all from the beginning of the true faith.  So, we must be very careful not to fall into the modern version of ecumenism for the sake of accommodation.
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« Reply #293 on: September 08, 2013, 10:58:54 PM »

This poll clearly shows that Christians are factionalising themselves into groups, as to say which group do I belong to and who do I barrack for.

Just a note of warning, Christ does not look for the worldly types who barrack for the who of who of the world, because they haven't considered Christ as the central focus to WHY, WHEN, HOW AND WHERE of their faith, in their mind and heart equation.

If you are for Christ then the poll should have an option where it does not agree with any ecumenical councils whether faith or interfaith because one must ask the pertinent question that all you prophesying Christians have forgot to ask and that is:

On what occasion and for what reason are you joining?

Is Christ at the centre or is he just a side dish!

I thing much of the ecumenical faith and interfaith councils use Christ as a side dish and the poll is evidence of what I have testified.

As Saint Paul would rebuke those who took part in emasculating themselves by their factionalising of their faith into groups, setting up leaders to barrack for. Saint Paul stated about such fickle minded approaches to a worldly communion and peace without the Prince of Peace Christ Jesus:

Quote
1 Corinthinian 1:10-13
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

So the real question that remains from all this ecumenical gathering is:

Was EO/OO/RC crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of EO/OO/RC?

Then this ecumenical councils has inadvertently fomented division and not unification in Christ and through Christ, because each worldly member is bringing along them their banners of EO, OO and RC and their EO, OO and RC agendas that have made the cross of Christ of one effect as Saint Paul pointed to the implication of such venture:

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1 Corinthians 1:17
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Where is the Great Commission prerogative to preach the gospel in this ecumenical movement?

No where to be seen along with the slowly relegated Christ as the back bencher of the 21st century Christian Apostolic faith.

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« Reply #294 on: September 08, 2013, 11:06:43 PM »

I can prove you wrong in four words: theanthropic body of Christ. Checkmate.
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« Reply #295 on: September 08, 2013, 11:07:13 PM »

How can I be saved, brother?  I am lost in my hopeless denominationalism and I want to be found.  
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« Reply #296 on: September 08, 2013, 11:26:20 PM »

How can I be saved, brother?  I am lost in my hopeless denominationalism and I want to be found.  

Quote
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

We look up towards God for He is our refuge and He will show us the way by faith and faith alone in the one and only, THE Holy Spirit of God.

As the Christian poem goes:

Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to the cross I cling

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/r/o/rockages.htm

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;

Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.


Precious Heavenly Holy Father our Almighty God bless those who look up to thee
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« Reply #297 on: September 09, 2013, 04:36:41 AM »

Look, "ecumenism" is not about wishy-washy religion.  It is about the fact that most of mankind is outside of the Church, and that we care about the salvation of other people who are Christians but heterodox.  

I'm not sure how that would fit with the idea that only God can see the truth.

"Ecumenism" is a horribly ambiguous term, so let me clarify.  

The most dangerous form of "ecumenism" that which pushes a new-age religion of syncretism.  Many say they don't know how people are drawn away from the Church to ecumenism, it must be because its wishy-washy.   But ecumenical syncretism is not at all wishy-washy or lukewarm, but rather strongly anti-dogma, anti-creed, etc.  People are drawn to this illegitimate form, however, in my opinion, initially for good reasons.  Even without discussing eternal prospects, it is plain for most to see that the majority of mankind is already "in hell," and in need of a Savior.  The problem is that people who don't come to know Christ don't see the Savior as a person, but rather substitute for a "thing" (ecumenical syncretism on some level) that "unites people."  Of course, we know in reality that it simply creates further division, because it is not based on the One who saves, and unity with Him in body and soul, indeed, in unity of the Faith with the Faithful One, within His Body the Church by the Holy Spirit.  But those who don't encounter the Church in this way, and haven't encountered Christ therein, look to ecumenism as an answer to the human problem.

That being said, dialogue is very important as is loving communication with others.   Eventually, all of the Donatists were brought back in (or died out in their separatism) to the Church due to "ecumenical dialogue," which took place within the bounds of the Canons of Carthage.    

But very dangerous is any form of dialogue where the faiths themselves must be considered equal. But there is dialogue where we recognize that God's Holy Church as the ark of salvation while also recognizing that all are called to salvation and are loved by God and equally are in need of union with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.   Therefore, while the people who dialogue cannot recognize contradictory points of faith as equal, they can recognize themselves as equals in that all share the human nature, and equals as fellow humans in need of God's grace.  But if others want us to recognize another faith as equal to that of Orthodox Christianity before they will sit down with us, then we cannot sit down with them.        



I like what you say here, that to talk with them is perhaps permissible to bring them back in the church. But what I really dislike is when going farther, praying together and other things! I dont see the reason for this! Further, I constantly hear from academic theologians the paradox of there being one church, yet in another breath say there being other churches with grace just simply with different cultural and historical traditions! What is the real point of dialogue for instance with the anglicans, who have female priests and the vast majority of bishops voted for female bishops, it only failing because of the laity vote??? How can the anglicans really actually still have apostolic succession as Constantinople claims if they ordain females! I think that is evidence that the holy spirit is not with them and there is no hope for any unity at all with them yet we still go on attending their ordinations (again breaking canons). The only excuse I can hear is to be a united front against atheistic/godless culture of europe. But I frankly don't see how this combats this in any way.

anyway... what was I thinking.

I keep hearing, that the ecumenism everyone is afraid of does not exist! But again and again I see otherwise

If the only ecumenism being conducted is talk, diologue to find out more about each other then why is there a need for united prayer, ignoring the canons we all know about? Why are the churches still in the World Council of "Churches"?? I see old videos of pagan rituals, with orthodox bishops watching from these gatherings of world church groups, even orthodox bishops praying in between a muslim and a hindu in turns! I don't see this as ecumenism to not be worried about


Simply, ecumenism should be to bring others into the church, there is no point in anything else. I just said, but i should say it again, I dont see the point in a "united front" against european secularism. This "united front" would be useless, nothing changes for the average person if the orthodox and catholics are together in some weird agreement of being christians. It's not going to change their mind that they don't like Christianity or its tenants. The other excuse I hear for the ecumenism (which people start to admit is failing and is at a deadlock) is if unity cannot be achieved, at least we can work together to help people (acting like a charity). Ok, that is fine, but please stop the joint prayers then, what are these joint prayers doing to help that? This dialogue is harming the church with schisms, how many souls have schismed thanks to ecumenism and innovations, how many have we saved through this dialogue

People should quit claiming also that the ecumenism we are doing really is to bring them into the Orthodox Church and the correct view. Why? Look,  what did Patriarch Bartholomew say?

Ἡ Ὀρθόδοξος Ἐκκλησία δέν ἐπιδιώκει νά πείση τούς ἄλλους περί συγκεκριμένης τινος ἀντιλήψεως τῆς ἀληθείας ἤ τῆς ἀποκαλύψεως, οὔτε ἐπιδιώκει νά τούς μεταστρέψει εἰς συγκεκριμένον τινά τρόπον σκέψεως



sorry for nonsense rant at 3 : 50 AM
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« Reply #298 on: September 09, 2013, 08:49:46 AM »

How can I be saved, brother?  I am lost in my hopeless denominationalism and I want to be found.  

Quote
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

We look up towards God for He is our refuge and He will show us the way by faith and faith alone in the one and only, THE Holy Spirit of God.

This certainly explains why all Christians on earth believe the same doctrine.

Oh wait...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #299 on: September 09, 2013, 11:20:52 PM »

I agree with Mor even though he is a Nestorian heretic without grace.  Grin

Who are you to call anyone an heretic, are you in a God given position to call someone who has been baptised by water into Christ and thereby justified by the blood of the lamb of God, a heritic?

Are you implying to God move over I am going to sit on your seat?

Listen your soul is in jeopardy by this callous act of violence against memebers of the body of Christ.
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« Reply #300 on: September 09, 2013, 11:24:08 PM »

I agree with Mor even though he is a Nestorian heretic without grace.  Grin

Who are you to call anyone an heretic, are you in a God given position to call someone who has been baptised by water into Christ and thereby justified by the blood of the lamb of God, a heritic?

Are you implying to God move over I am going to sit on your seat?

Listen your soul is in jeopardy by this callous act of violence against memebers of the body of Christ.

There is a difference between actual martyrdom and the martyrdom complex.
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« Reply #301 on: September 10, 2013, 01:06:37 AM »

Stop judging and stop being judgemental you are not in a position to say who is a martyr for Christ and who is not and that position solely rests upon the judgement seat of Christ and not yours nor your denomination or others.

You have put on display a spirit which is diametrically opposed to all of Christ's beatitudes. I pointed that one out to you and others earlier and you totally ignored what was righteous in that message.

You ignore what is righteous!

How can you by displaying evil in persecuting a member of the body of Christ cause you to over look the plank that is firmly lodged in your own eyes and seek only to gouge out the splitter in your brother's eyes.

What an evil and lawless generation this has become, for all of the body of Christ to witness and to rebuke such selfish, ambitious and a flagrant ignorance of all of God's laws that is tied to his righteousness and love.

Where is your love your circumcised heart, where is it?

Just what are you hiding inside of you by this careless and lawless act of spoken violence against a member of the body of Christ.

I am redeemed by his blood that he shed on the cross, and what right do you have to call me names other than the name of Christ I have taken on.

You reject every thing that is written in the law and prophets and thereby forfeit your salvation by this act of violence against Christ.

Quote
Matthew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
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« Reply #302 on: September 10, 2013, 01:10:48 AM »

I agree with Mor even though he is a Nestorian heretic without grace.  Grin

Who are you to call anyone an heretic, are you in a God given position to call someone who has been baptised by water into Christ and thereby justified by the blood of the lamb of God, a heritic?

Are you implying to God move over I am going to sit on your seat?

Listen your soul is in jeopardy by this callous act of violence against memebers of the body of Christ.
Twas a joke.  Mor knows I respect his knowledge of Scripture and Church history a great deal. 

Kool your jets, yo!
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« Reply #303 on: September 10, 2013, 02:53:22 AM »

Stop judging and stop being judgemental you are not in a position to say who is a martyr for Christ and who is not and that position solely rests upon the judgement seat of Christ and not yours nor your denomination or others.

You have put on display a spirit which is diametrically opposed to all of Christ's beatitudes. I pointed that one out to you and others earlier and you totally ignored what was righteous in that message.

You ignore what is righteous!

How can you by displaying evil in persecuting a member of the body of Christ cause you to over look the plank that is firmly lodged in your own eyes and seek only to gouge out the splitter in your brother's eyes.

What an evil and lawless generation this has become, for all of the body of Christ to witness and to rebuke such selfish, ambitious and a flagrant ignorance of all of God's laws that is tied to his righteousness and love.

Where is your love your circumcised heart, where is it?

Just what are you hiding inside of you by this careless and lawless act of spoken violence against a member of the body of Christ.

I am redeemed by his blood that he shed on the cross, and what right do you have to call me names other than the name of Christ I have taken on.

You reject every thing that is written in the law and prophets and thereby forfeit your salvation by this act of violence against Christ.

Quote
Matthew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Tell me, did Christ's prayer that we may be one fail? Was this prayer, offered by the high priest and mediator between God and man inefficacious?
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« Reply #304 on: September 10, 2013, 06:36:30 AM »

Don't feed the troll.
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« Reply #305 on: September 11, 2013, 10:29:49 AM »

Tell me, did Christ's prayer that we may be one fail?

You mean his prayer that there will someday be full communion between Rome and the Orthodox?  Grin
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« Reply #306 on: September 11, 2013, 01:46:43 PM »

Tell me, did Christ's prayer that we may be one fail?

You mean his prayer that there will someday be full communion between Rome and the Orthodox?  Grin

When Christ prayed that, there were just the disciples and the non-disciples.

He was not praying for the union of those who believed the Messiah had come, with the ones who didn't believe it and the ones who couldn't care less about the Messiah under some compromise on different perspectives the word Messiah could have.

He was praying for the conversion of all those who were not His disciples, for a change of mind preceded by repentance. They were to becoming one by giving up their misguided ways of life and wrong beliefs to become His followers.

You can be an Orthodox, a Roman Catholic, a Protestant, a Non-Chalcedonian and in that prayer is the honest, sincere pious wish that the other ones will see the folly of their ways and convert. To see in it, as revolutionary ecumenists do, a kind of subscription to the ideas that all are somewhat wrong in something and all should join together is utterly unloving, arrogant and prideful.

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« Reply #307 on: September 11, 2013, 03:36:06 PM »

Tell me, did Christ's prayer that we may be one fail?

You mean his prayer that there will someday be full communion between Rome and the Orthodox?  Grin

When Christ prayed that, there were just the disciples and the non-disciples.

He was not praying for the union of those who believed the Messiah had come, with the ones who didn't believe it and the ones who couldn't care less about the Messiah under some compromise on different perspectives the word Messiah could have.

He was praying for the conversion of all those who were not His disciples, for a change of mind preceded by repentance. They were to becoming one by giving up their misguided ways of life and wrong beliefs to become His followers.

You can be an Orthodox, a Roman Catholic, a Protestant, a Non-Chalcedonian and in that prayer is the honest, sincere pious wish that the other ones will see the folly of their ways and convert. To see in it, as revolutionary ecumenists do, a kind of subscription to the ideas that all are somewhat wrong in something and all should join together is utterly unloving, arrogant and prideful.

Fair enough. I just point out that different people (e.g. Catholics vs Orthodox) interpret the prayer differently.
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