Author Topic: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people". / Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays  (Read 11698 times)

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Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2013, 04:49:26 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

No, it's just interpreted differently. Or called ancestral sin.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

Quote
Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?

You confess personal sins.

More properly: ancestral curse

What you suggest we believe is absolutely wrong. For example, babies who die before baptism are still given funerals and are recognized as being in God's kingdom. They inherit the fallen nature, the curse of the tendency to sin. But they don't have any sins and aren't guilty of anyone else's sins.

You are so wrong about us William, you should stop now an let us speak for ourselves instead of trying to speak on our behalf.

"And if we have in any way sinned against You, be merciful to them and to us; for no man is free of stain in Your sight though he live but a day." - Pentecost Kneeling Vespers
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2013, 04:59:53 PM »
POPE- "Who am I to judge Gay people?"

BIBLE- "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24

You're welcome, sir.  :)



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Offline JamesR

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2013, 05:00:36 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa
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Offline gueranger

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2013, 05:01:06 PM »
On gays the pope basically reiterated Catholic teaching, but without stressing that homosexual activity is indeed gravely sinful - a very anti-pastoral thing to do. He should have known the headlines that would arise.

The big issue is that the Pope said the commision of cardinals, who are supposed to be discussing reform of the Roman Curia - you know, the one which is full of active homosexuals and has a money laundering bank, the curia that chief exorcist of Rome Fr Gabriel Amorth said has members who are practicing satanists and masons... the commision that should be talking about reforming that is instead discussing giving Holy Communion to divorced and remarried Catholics. By traditional Roman Catholic standards, its insanity.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 05:02:02 PM by gueranger »

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2013, 05:03:14 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Well, since good old traditional William is arguing for true Orthodoxy against the liberaldox modernists, I'm going to take his side and throw something else controversial into the mix: the Orthodox Church always has & still does condemn birth control except in the case of health. You'd be hard pressed to find a Church Father who didn't disapprove of it. Anyone who says differently is a mislead liberaldox.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline gueranger

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2013, 05:03:26 PM »
Honestly, a part of me wants them to approve Holy Communion for remarried divorcees, it would infallibly confirm my conversion to Orthodoxy. It would be a blatant change of Roman Catholic teaching.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2013, 05:09:37 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

No, it's just interpreted differently. Or called ancestral sin.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

Quote
Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?

You confess personal sins.

More properly: ancestral curse

What you suggest we believe is absolutely wrong. For example, babies who die before baptism are still given funerals and are recognized as being in God's kingdom. They inherit the fallen nature, the curse of the tendency to sin. But they don't have any sins and aren't guilty of anyone else's sins.

You are so wrong about us William, you should stop now an let us speak for ourselves instead of trying to speak on our behalf.

"And if we have in any way sinned against You, be merciful to them and to us; for no man is free of stain in Your sight though he live but a day." - Pentecost Kneeling Vespers

Good job taking one quote from a prayer out of context. Sounds like something Protestants tend to do a lot of.

Just quit trying to tell us what we believe, you aren't in the Church and have no right to tell us what we believe.

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2013, 05:12:07 PM »

I don't understand how Orthodox people don't know the Orthodox view of sin. I know orthonorm has run into this problem on this forum before too.

Ahh, yes.  You and Orthonorm can lecture our priests and bishops on the true meaning of sin.  

The fact is that, despite lots of philosophical wrangling, the Church has always treated "sin" as acts, as well.  It's not entirely some philosophical construct of ontological being.  That's why, as others have said, we confess individual sins, not just our sinful being.
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Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2013, 05:12:19 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

No, it's just interpreted differently. Or called ancestral sin.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

Quote
Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?

You confess personal sins.

More properly: ancestral curse

What you suggest we believe is absolutely wrong. For example, babies who die before baptism are still given funerals and are recognized as being in God's kingdom. They inherit the fallen nature, the curse of the tendency to sin. But they don't have any sins and aren't guilty of anyone else's sins.

You are so wrong about us William, you should stop now an let us speak for ourselves instead of trying to speak on our behalf.

"And if we have in any way sinned against You, be merciful to them and to us; for no man is free of stain in Your sight though he live but a day." - Pentecost Kneeling Vespers

Good job taking one quote from a prayer out of context. Sounds like something Protestants tend to do a lot of.

Just quit trying to tell us what we believe, you aren't in the Church and have no right to tell us what we believe.

Here's the full prayer. If there's a particular aspect that completely changes the meaning, feel free and point it out: http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/pentecost_kneel

Using evidence to support your position is not Protestant, by the way. It's something a lot of groups do.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2013, 05:13:31 PM »

I don't understand how Orthodox people don't know the Orthodox view of sin. I know orthonorm has run into this problem on this forum before too.

Ahh, yes.  You and Orthonorm can lecture our priests and bishops on the true meaning of sin.  

The fact is that, despite lots of philosophical wrangling, the Church has always treated "sin" as acts, as well.  It's not entirely some philosophical construct of ontological being.  That's why, as others have said, we confess individual sins, not just our sinful being.

Which is exactly what I said.

By the way, Devin and Trisagion aren't priests or bishops. But the person I learned this idea from (Fr. Hopko) is.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2013, 05:17:39 PM »

I don't understand how Orthodox people don't know the Orthodox view of sin. I know orthonorm has run into this problem on this forum before too.

Ahh, yes.  You and Orthonorm can lecture our priests and bishops on the true meaning of sin.  

The fact is that, despite lots of philosophical wrangling, the Church has always treated "sin" as acts, as well.  It's not entirely some philosophical construct of ontological being.  That's why, as others have said, we confess individual sins, not just our sinful being.

Which is exactly what I said.

By the way, Devin and Trisagion aren't priests or bishops. But the person I learned this idea from (Fr. Hopko) is.

I listen to Fr Hopko all the time and he has never taught what you say. Nether do any Priests I know. So just shut up and let us speak for ourselves, don't be an arrogant jerk and think you are somehow wiser to Orthodoxy. Just shut your mouth and let us speak for ourselves.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2013, 05:19:37 PM »

I don't understand how Orthodox people don't know the Orthodox view of sin. I know orthonorm has run into this problem on this forum before too.

Ahh, yes.  You and Orthonorm can lecture our priests and bishops on the true meaning of sin. 

The fact is that, despite lots of philosophical wrangling, the Church has always treated "sin" as acts, as well.  It's not entirely some philosophical construct of ontological being.  That's why, as others have said, we confess individual sins, not just our sinful being.

Which is exactly what I said.

By the way, Devin and Trisagion aren't priests or bishops. But the person I learned this idea from (Fr. Hopko) is.

I listen to Fr Hopko all the time and he has never taught what you say. Nether do any Priests I know. So just shut up and let us speak for ourselves, don't be an arrogant jerk and think you are somehow wiser to Orthodoxy. Just shut your mouth and let us speak for ourselves.

I posted an article on the previous page of this thread where Fr. Hopko mentions that sickness is bondage to sin and the devil.

I don't think I am "wiser to [sic] Orthodoxy." According to people like Fr. Hopko, I am agreeing with Orthodox teaching.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 05:19:52 PM by William »
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline JamesR

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2013, 05:23:31 PM »
The Orthodox Church has ALWAYS believed in Original Sin, or "ancestral" sin, as some theologians call it. The only difference is that we do not understand it in quite the same way as the West, mostly due to our different soteriology. The West generally views Original Sin in the sense that we inherit guilt for Adam's transgression and thus are guilty and subject to the punishment of death in God's eyes, whereas in the East, it is understand more so in the sense that we are sick and inherited the consequence of Adam's transgression--which was death--but are innocent of the guilt, as people are only guilty of individual sins.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2013, 05:23:55 PM »

I don't understand how Orthodox people don't know the Orthodox view of sin. I know orthonorm has run into this problem on this forum before too.

Ahh, yes.  You and Orthonorm can lecture our priests and bishops on the true meaning of sin. 

The fact is that, despite lots of philosophical wrangling, the Church has always treated "sin" as acts, as well.  It's not entirely some philosophical construct of ontological being.  That's why, as others have said, we confess individual sins, not just our sinful being.

Which is exactly what I said.

By the way, Devin and Trisagion aren't priests or bishops. But the person I learned this idea from (Fr. Hopko) is.

I listen to Fr Hopko all the time and he has never taught what you say. Nether do any Priests I know. So just shut up and let us speak for ourselves, don't be an arrogant jerk and think you are somehow wiser to Orthodoxy. Just shut your mouth and let us speak for ourselves.

I posted an article on the previous page of this thread where Fr. Hopko mentions that sickness is bondage to sin and the devil.

I don't think I am "wiser to [sic] Orthodoxy." According to people like Fr. Hopko, I am agreeing with Orthodox teaching.

That statement doesn't mean what you think it means. Your interpretation as a heterodox is subject to error, and you can't even understand what Fr Hopko or any teacher says, regardless of how many times you read them.

Like I said, you are wrong here and you should shut up and stop telling us what we believe.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2013, 05:24:45 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

No, it's just interpreted differently. Or called ancestral sin.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

Quote
Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?

You confess personal sins.

More properly: ancestral curse

What you suggest we believe is absolutely wrong. For example, babies who die before baptism are still given funerals and are recognized as being in God's kingdom. They inherit the fallen nature, the curse of the tendency to sin. But they don't have any sins and aren't guilty of anyone else's sins.

You are so wrong about us William, you should stop now an let us speak for ourselves instead of trying to speak on our behalf.

"And if we have in any way sinned against You, be merciful to them and to us; for no man is free of stain in Your sight though he live but a day." - Pentecost Kneeling Vespers

Good job taking one quote from a prayer out of context. Sounds like something Protestants tend to do a lot of.

Just quit trying to tell us what we believe, you aren't in the Church and have no right to tell us what we believe.

"For in thy sight there is none free from sin, not even the infant who has lived but a day upon this earth. Who brings this to my remembrance? Does not each little one, in whom I now observe what I no longer remember of myself? In what ways, in that time, did I sin? Was it that I cried for the breast? If I should now so cry--not indeed for the breast, but for food suitable to my condition--I should be most justly laughed at and rebuked. What I did then deserved rebuke but, since I could not understand those who rebuked me, neither custom nor common sense permitted me to be rebuked. As we grow we root out and cast away from us such childish habits. Yet I have not seen anyone who is wise who cast away the good when trying to purge the bad. Nor was it good, even in that time, to strive to get by crying what, if it had been given me, would have been hurtful; or to be bitterly indignant at those who, because they were older--not slaves, either, but free--and wiser than I, would not indulge my capricious desires. Was it a good thing for me to try, by struggling as hard as I could, to harm them for not obeying me, even when it would have done me harm to have been obeyed? Thus, the infant’s innocence lies in the weakness of his body and not in the infant mind. I have myself observed a baby to be jealous, though it could not speak; it was livid as it watched another infant at the breast.

Who is ignorant of this? Mothers and nurses tell us that they cure these things by I know not what remedies. But is this innocence, when the fountain of milk is flowing fresh and abundant, that another who needs it should not be allowed to share it, even though he requires such nourishment to sustain his life? Yet we look leniently on such things, not because they are not faults, or even small faults, but because they will vanish as the years pass. For, although we allow for such things in an infant, the same things could not be tolerated patiently in an adult." - St. Augustine, Confessions
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2013, 05:24:59 PM »

By the way, Devin and Trisagion aren't priests or bishops. But the person I learned this idea from (Fr. Hopko) is.

No, but all of my priests and bishops have been priests and bishops, and they don't teach that sin does not refer to acts as well.
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Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2013, 05:26:26 PM »
That statement doesn't mean what you think it means. Your interpretation as a heterodox is subject to error, and you can't even understand what Fr Hopko or any teacher says, regardless of how many times you read them.

Like I said, you are wrong here and you should shut up and stop telling us what we believe.

JamesR is baptized and agrees with me. Does he get the magic decoder ring to understand what Fr. Hopko says?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2013, 05:27:18 PM »

By the way, Devin and Trisagion aren't priests or bishops. But the person I learned this idea from (Fr. Hopko) is.

No, but all of my priests and bishops have been priests and bishops, and they don't teach that sin does not refer to acts as well.

I didn't say that sin does not refer to acts. I said that it refers to both acts and aspects of our sinful condition like a tendency to temptation, death and sickness.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline JamesR

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2013, 05:27:52 PM »
"For in thy sight there is none free from sin, not even the infant who has lived but a day upon this earth. Who brings this to my remembrance? Does not each little one, in whom I now observe what I no longer remember of myself? In what ways, in that time, did I sin? Was it that I cried for the breast? If I should now so cry--not indeed for the breast, but for food suitable to my condition--I should be most justly laughed at and rebuked. What I did then deserved rebuke but, since I could not understand those who rebuked me, neither custom nor common sense permitted me to be rebuked. As we grow we root out and cast away from us such childish habits. Yet I have not seen anyone who is wise who cast away the good when trying to purge the bad. Nor was it good, even in that time, to strive to get by crying what, if it had been given me, would have been hurtful; or to be bitterly indignant at those who, because they were older--not slaves, either, but free--and wiser than I, would not indulge my capricious desires. Was it a good thing for me to try, by struggling as hard as I could, to harm them for not obeying me, even when it would have done me harm to have been obeyed? Thus, the infant’s innocence lies in the weakness of his body and not in the infant mind. I have myself observed a baby to be jealous, though it could not speak; it was livid as it watched another infant at the breast.

Who is ignorant of this? Mothers and nurses tell us that they cure these things by I know not what remedies. But is this innocence, when the fountain of milk is flowing fresh and abundant, that another who needs it should not be allowed to share it, even though he requires such nourishment to sustain his life? Yet we look leniently on such things, not because they are not faults, or even small faults, but because they will vanish as the years pass. For, although we allow for such things in an infant, the same things could not be tolerated patiently in an adult." - St. Augustine, Confessions

Shhhh  ;)

You'll shatter the Ameridox notion that Western Saints aren't really Saints and that their theology must be discredited even though St. Augustine was Canonized a Saint in the 3rd Ecumenical Council and declared a doctor of the Church in the 5th :)
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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2013, 05:31:53 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Well, since good old traditional William is arguing for true Orthodoxy against the liberaldox modernists, I'm going to take his side and throw something else controversial into the mix: the Orthodox Church always has & still does condemn birth control except in the case of health. You'd be hard pressed to find a Church Father who didn't disapprove of it. Anyone who says differently is a mislead liberaldox.
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2013, 05:43:59 PM »

No, but all of my priests and bishops have been priests and bishops, and they don't teach that sin does not refer to acts as well.

I didn't say that sin does not refer to acts. I said that it refers to both acts and aspects of our sinful condition like a tendency to temptation, death and sickness.

Then we must cease our bickering immediately, as we agree!
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2013, 05:55:28 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Well, since good old traditional William is arguing for true Orthodoxy against the liberaldox modernists, I'm going to take his side and throw something else controversial into the mix: the Orthodox Church always has & still does condemn birth control except in the case of health. You'd be hard pressed to find a Church Father who didn't disapprove of it. Anyone who says differently is a mislead liberaldox.

Of course no Church Father who spoke against contraception made an exception "in the case of health," none that I've seen anyway, but hey, I like you catching this as much as the next guy. If I can't corner James to admit that he pulled that claim out of thin air, at least I'll support you guys in calling him on contradicting himself.  8)

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2013, 06:34:27 PM »
"For in thy sight there is none free from sin, not even the infant who has lived but a day upon this earth. Who brings this to my remembrance? Does not each little one, in whom I now observe what I no longer remember of myself? In what ways, in that time, did I sin? Was it that I cried for the breast? If I should now so cry--not indeed for the breast, but for food suitable to my condition--I should be most justly laughed at and rebuked. What I did then deserved rebuke but, since I could not understand those who rebuked me, neither custom nor common sense permitted me to be rebuked. As we grow we root out and cast away from us such childish habits. Yet I have not seen anyone who is wise who cast away the good when trying to purge the bad. Nor was it good, even in that time, to strive to get by crying what, if it had been given me, would have been hurtful; or to be bitterly indignant at those who, because they were older--not slaves, either, but free--and wiser than I, would not indulge my capricious desires. Was it a good thing for me to try, by struggling as hard as I could, to harm them for not obeying me, even when it would have done me harm to have been obeyed? Thus, the infant’s innocence lies in the weakness of his body and not in the infant mind. I have myself observed a baby to be jealous, though it could not speak; it was livid as it watched another infant at the breast.

Who is ignorant of this? Mothers and nurses tell us that they cure these things by I know not what remedies. But is this innocence, when the fountain of milk is flowing fresh and abundant, that another who needs it should not be allowed to share it, even though he requires such nourishment to sustain his life? Yet we look leniently on such things, not because they are not faults, or even small faults, but because they will vanish as the years pass. For, although we allow for such things in an infant, the same things could not be tolerated patiently in an adult." - St. Augustine, Confessions

Shhhh  ;)

You'll shatter the Ameridox notion that Western Saints aren't really Saints and that their theology must be discredited even though St. Augustine was Canonized a Saint in the 3rd Ecumenical Council and declared a doctor of the Church in the 5th :)

Hmm... Maybe it's the proven fact that St Augustine was wrong on sin and human nature? Saints make mistakes and errors to, he's a Saint, but his theological error eventually led to the decline of Rome into heresy.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2013, 07:14:25 PM »
Pope: "Who am I to judge Gay people".


Who are you? Oh, I don't know........something like the Vicar of Christ on earth?

And I love the way he uses the PC term for "gay" for homosexuals.

This guy is way too wishy-washy for me, just another closet Cultural Marxist from the Jesuit school.

I see the Church reverting back to the good ol PJII days except even worse with some sort of cultural ecumenism or something with this pope going way out of his way to appear "humble" and charitable to sexual deviants of every stripe.

And here I had so much hope with Benedict before him.

time for a big let down....again. >:(
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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2013, 07:15:52 PM »
POPE- "Who am I to judge Gay people?"

BIBLE- "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24

You're welcome, sir.  :)



BIBLE- "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1
Bible-LEVITICUS 20:13


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood*shall be*upon them.
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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2013, 07:22:54 PM »
POPE- "Who am I to judge Gay people?"

BIBLE- "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24

You're welcome, sir.  :)



BIBLE- "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1
Bible-LEVITICUS 20:13


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood*shall be*upon them.

Now I'm not one to ignore the OT, but, I think you are a bit guilty here of cherry-picking Scriptures like the Protestants do. The Pentateuch also has a law against mixing two different colored threads together to make a garment and says not to eat pork, yet, most of us will violate those rules several times in our life.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2013, 07:23:04 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa
I don't even know how to respond to such an idiotic statment lke that.

Except to just not engage in a fool's folly.

So now Benedict's personally responsible for the spread of veneral diseases on the Dark Continent.

Hey James, how bout this, maybe the Vatican created HIV to begin with? Yea that's it, those nasty ol papists in conjunction with the CIA genetically engineered the virus and let it loose on all those poor unsuspecting black folks under a global diabolical threat to eradicate them from the planet. ::)
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2013, 07:29:08 PM »
POPE- "Who am I to judge Gay people?"

BIBLE- "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24

You're welcome, sir.  :)



BIBLE- "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1
Bible-LEVITICUS 20:13


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood*shall be*upon them.

Now I'm not one to ignore the OT, but, I think you are a bit guilty here of cherry-picking Scriptures like the Protestants do. The Pentateuch also has a law against mixing two different colored threads together to make a garment and says not to eat pork, yet, most of us will violate those rules several times in our life.
I don't know what quote you're talking about as far as the two different colored threads go, I'd have to know the context, not that it's relevant to Yawheh declaring that two dudes shouldn't bed down together or else.

And, scripture is right about not dining on the swine, not much good comes from that.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2013, 07:36:56 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa
I don't even know how to respond to such an idiotic statment lke that.

Except to just not engage in a fool's folly.

So now Benedict's personally responsible for the spread of veneral diseases on the Dark Continent.

Hey James, how bout this, maybe the Vatican created HIV to begin with? Yea that's it, those nasty ol papists in conjunction with the CIA genetically engineered the virus and let it loose on all those poor unsuspecting black folks under a global diabolical threat to eradicate them from the planet. ::)

It's a hilarious, and sad charge, considering his own supposed church (the Orthodox Church) rejects contraception, and so in his mind, we are also responsible for the spread of HIV/AIDS.

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2013, 07:59:59 PM »
I would have to disagree that homosexual attraction or orientation is not a sin but homosexual behavior is a sin. St Paul tells us in Romans 1 that homosexuality is against nature and by default an act of lawlessness.

St John Chrysostom says "For genuine pleasure is that which is according to nature. But when God hath left one, then all things are turned upside down. And thus not only was their doctrine Satanical, but their life too was diabolical. Now when he was discoursing of their doctrines, he put before them the world and man’s understanding, telling them that, by the judgment afforded them by God, they might through the things which are seen, have been led as by the hand to the Creator, and then, by not willing to do so, they remained inexcusable....Which is an evident proof of the last degree of corruptness, when both sexes are abandoned, and both he that was ordained to be the instructor of the woman, and she who was bid to become an helpmate to the man, work the deeds of enemies against one another. And reflect too how significantly he uses his words. For he does not say that they were enamoured of, and lusted after one another, but, “they burned in their lust one toward another.” You see that the whole of desire comes of an exorbitancy which endureth not to abide within its proper limits. For everything which transgresseth the laws by God appointed, lusteth after monstrous things and not those which be customary. For as many oftentimes having left the desire of food get to feed upon earth and small stones, and others being possessed by excessive thirst often long even for mire, thus these also ran into this ebullition of lawless love....And he called it not lust, but that which is unseemly, and that properly. For they both dishonored nature, and trampled on the laws. And see the great confusion which fell out on both sides. For not only was the head turned downwards but the feet too were upwards, and they became enemies to themselves and to one another, bringing in a pernicious kind of strife, and one even more lawless than any civil war, and one rife in divisions, and of varied form." http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vii.vi.html

St John called homosexuality more lawless than civil war. Any desire that is against nature is sin. St John uses the example of abandoning food to eat stones and abandoning water to drink swamp. It is not merely an aberration but sin itself because it is enmity with God's plan and goodness.

Another example is Christ's teaching on adultery. We all know adultery is a behavior that is a sin. In Matthew 5:28, Christ tells us that not only the act is sin but desire for a woman is adultery and is therefore a sin too.  The standard or the litmus test of sin is not in action only, but anything that is perverse to human nature and God's plan. In the same way, homosexual orientation - and not just homosexual behavior - is a sin.

The diabolic agenda in today's world has changed the old paradigm that people are responsible for their actions. Instead we are now facing a world where people believe one is genetically predisposed to homosexual attraction. They "were born that way" and they can't do anything about it. But St John Chrysostom makes a point to show that St Paul wrote his condemnation against homosexuality in such a way that it is inexcusable to claim injustice for the judgment homosexuals receive. Homosexuality, like any sin, is a choice.

Is this not Orthodox theology?

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2013, 08:02:05 PM »
Pope: "Who am I to judge Gay people".


Who are you? Oh, I don't know........something like the Vicar of Christ on earth?

And I love the way he uses the PC term for "gay" for homosexuals.

This guy is way too wishy-washy for me, just another closet Cultural Marxist from the Jesuit school.

I see the Church reverting back to the good ol PJII days except even worse with some sort of cultural ecumenism or something with this pope going way out of his way to appear "humble" and charitable to sexual deviants of every stripe.

And here I had so much hope with Benedict before him.

time for a big let down....again. >:(

If only the world had a less wishy-washy pope, we could stamp out sexual deviancy ONCE AND FOR ALL!!! >:( >:( >:(     :laugh:
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2013, 08:13:58 PM »
I would have to disagree that homosexual attraction or orientation is not a sin but homosexual behavior is a sin. St Paul tells us in Romans 1 that homosexuality is against nature and by default an act of lawlessness.
Oh did he now?

Romans 1:26, 27:
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Actually, he is clearly referring to lust and actions. If I'm attracted to women, am I sinning? What about if someone is attracted to members of the same sex? How about Fr. Seraphim Rose, who was gay, yet didn't exercise his feelings and didn't entertain his desires?

Quote
Is this not Orthodox theology?

No, as who you are attracted to is not something that can be sinful. But acting on that, and entertaining lustful thoughts is what is sinful.

What Fr. Seraphim Rose sinning on his deathbed just because he was attracted to other men? It's just absolutely stupid to say that your sexual orientation is a sin. It's a product of the "uck" factor that people feel, and this false assumption that it's impossible to be born gay.

What? Is heterosexuality the only non-sinful orientation? Should all homosexuals be driven into heterosexuality? Will they only be repentant then?

No, as I said before. Orthodoxy teaches that it is the lust, the thoughts and the actions that determine if you are sinning. It isn't your state.

Being born homosexual is no different than a little child who is born addicted to crack. Yet that little child has committed no sin, and would receive a full Orthodox funeral if he dies before his baptism and dies at a young age. However, that little child, as he grows up, will indeed sin if he actually abuses drugs, acting on his addiction.

Same for those addicted to nicotine. People who don't smoke anymore, or who don't drink anymore, but who are still addicted to nicotine and alcohol aren't sinning just by being addicted. They would sin though if they smoked, or if they got drunk.

Our Church makes a strong distinction between a person's fallen psychological, physical state that is often unalterable, with any thoughts and actions that might result from their fallen nature.

Also, the fallen nature that results from the ancestral curse doesn't mean you have sinned. Yet it makes you a fallen being with a tendency to sin, an inevitability of earthly death and in need of salvation. Look at the Holy Theotokos, she was born a fallen human being, but never had any personal sin despite being born a fallen human being.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 08:16:31 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2013, 08:15:07 PM »
God already judged the actions of gay people.  He called it an abomination.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2013, 08:18:00 PM »
God already judged the actions of gay people.  He called it an abomination.

The actions, but not their orientation. Homosexuals cannot become heterosexuals. If being homosexual condemns one, then homosexuals have no chance of salvation because they cannot change their psychology, they cannot switch from being attracted to the same sex to being attracted to the opposite sex.

I have several gay friends, and I know that for at least several of them, they cannot and will not be attracted to women, ever. Yet I also disagree with their lifestyle and their choice to act upon their orientation, rather than seeking repentance and living in chastity.

We are all born fallen, we are all born sinners, but our natural state, even broken and fallen, doesn't automatically attribute sin to us. A blind person, born blind and thus "broken" or "fallen" isn't sinning by being blind. An autistic person, born autistic, and thus born "broken" or "fallen" isn't sinning by being autistic. A homosexual person, born homosexual, and thus born "broken" or "fallen", isn't sinning by just being homosexual, they sin if they act on it, but not just by being it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 08:27:26 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2013, 08:29:28 PM »
God already judged the actions of gay people.  He called it an abomination.

The actions, but not their orientation. Homosexuals cannot become heterosexuals. If being homosexual condemns one, then homosexuals have no chance of salvation because they cannot change their psychology, they cannot switch from being attracted to the same sex to being attracted to the opposite sex.

I have several gay friends, and I know that for at least several of them, they cannot and will not be attracted to women, ever. Yet I also disagree with their lifestyle and their choice to act upon their orientation, rather than seeking repentance and living in chastity.

Yes, the actions.  We all struggle with sin, and I do believe homosexuals can reach salvation.   There are few sins in the Bible that are called "an abomination".   Also in the NT, it was judged sinful (the actions).

I am still wondering however if it is fair to call a person who does not engage in sex, to have an "orientation".   If they are celibate, then so be it.   Attraction is the next door neighbor of lust.... A man looking at a man lustfully, I'm sure would be considered an "abomination of the heart".   Of course, that's up to God.

I absolutely agree with you though, if a person struggles with homosexual temptations, they can reach salvation.  It's a sin.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2013, 08:43:19 PM »
God already judged the actions of gay people.  He called it an abomination.

The actions, but not their orientation. Homosexuals cannot become heterosexuals. If being homosexual condemns one, then homosexuals have no chance of salvation because they cannot change their psychology, they cannot switch from being attracted to the same sex to being attracted to the opposite sex.

I have several gay friends, and I know that for at least several of them, they cannot and will not be attracted to women, ever. Yet I also disagree with their lifestyle and their choice to act upon their orientation, rather than seeking repentance and living in chastity.

Yes, the actions.  We all struggle with sin, and I do believe homosexuals can reach salvation.   There are few sins in the Bible that are called "an abomination".   Also in the NT, it was judged sinful (the actions).

I am still wondering however if it is fair to call a person who does not engage in sex, to have an "orientation".   If they are celibate, then so be it.   Attraction is the next door neighbor of lust.... A man looking at a man lustfully, I'm sure would be considered an "abomination of the heart".   Of course, that's up to God.

I absolutely agree with you though, if a person struggles with homosexual temptations, they can reach salvation.  It's a sin.

Attraction isn't always lust or sexual.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2013, 09:31:22 PM »
...In the same way, homosexual orientation - and not just homosexual behavior - is a sin.

The diabolic agenda in today's world has changed the old paradigm that people are responsible for their actions. Instead we are now facing a world where people believe one is genetically predisposed to homosexual attraction. They "were born that way" and they can't do anything about it. But St John Chrysostom makes a point to show that St Paul wrote his condemnation against homosexuality in such a way that it is inexcusable to claim injustice for the judgment homosexuals receive. Homosexuality, like any sin, is a choice.

Not according to recent scientific studies:

Quote
In 1993, the National Institute of Health’s Dean Hamer illustrated that homosexuality might be inherited from the mother by her sons through a specific region of the X chromosome (Xq28). Hamer demonstrated this by noting that 33 out of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers whom he studied showed the same variation in the tip of the chromosome.

A June 2006 Canadian study published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences said that nature, not nurture, explains the origins of homosexuality. The study’s author, Prof. Anthony F. Bogaert of Brock University in Ontario, explored the causes behind what is known as the fraternal birth order. The research showed a correlation between the number of biological older brothers a man has and his sexual orientation. Dividing his sample of more than 900 heterosexual and homosexual men into four groups, Bogaert examined the impact of all types of older brothers, including step and adopted siblings, and the amount of time brothers spent together while growing up. His research found that only the number of biological brothers had an impact on sexuality, regardless of whether the boys were raised together.

A study released in May 2006 by Swedish scientists demonstrated that biology plays a key role in determining a person’ sexuality. The research showed that the area of the brain that helps regulate sexuality — the hypothalamus – reacted the exact same way in straight women and gay men when exposed to male pheromones, which are chemicals designed to provoke a behavior such as sexual arousal. The same area of the brain only became stimulated in heterosexual men when introduced to female pheromones.

In 2005, Dr. Brian Mustanski of the University of Illinois at Chicago published a study in the esteemed biomedical journal Human Genetics, claiming he identified three chromosomal regions linked to sexual orientation in men: 7q36, 8p12 and 10q26.

In 2003, University of Texas psychoacoustics specialist Dennis McFadden found that when measuring the way the brain reacts to sound, lesbians fell in between heterosexual men and straight women, suggesting they might be exposed to higher than normal levels of male hormones in utero.

In 2003, University of Liverpool biologist John T. Manning found that the lesbians whom he studied have a hand pattern that “resembles a man’s more than a straight female.” Manning concluded from his study that this “strongly tells us that female homosexuals have had higher levels of exposure to testosterone before birth.”

A 1991 study by Dr. Simon LeVay found that a specific region of the hypothalamus is twice as large in heterosexual men as it is in women or gay men. This strongly points to the role of biology in sexual orientation.

Another 1991 study by scientists Richard Pillard and John M. Bailey studied homosexuality among brothers and found that 53 percent of identical twins were both gay. In adoptive brothers, 11 percent were both homosexual. Of non-twin biological siblings, 9 percent were gay. Again, this points to solid evidence that homosexuality is a matter of nature.
http://www.truthwinsout.org/opinion/2011/10/19114/

Quote
Compared to straight men, gay men are more likely to be left-handed, to be the younger siblings of older brothers, and to have hair that whorls in a counterclockwise direction.

US researchers are finding common biological traits among gay men, feeding a growing consensus that sexual orientation is an inborn combination of genetic and environmental factors that largely decide a person's sexual attractions before they are born.

Sven Bocklandt, a geneticist at the David Geffen school of medicine at UCLA, is bewildered by the argument that people choose their sexual attraction. He said that virtually every animal species that has been studied - from sheep to fruit flies - has a small minority of individuals who demonstrate homosexual activity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homosexuality-genetics-usa

Nothing diabolical going on here. Just science doing what it does.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2013, 09:43:29 PM »
Now I'm not one to ignore the OT, but, I think you are a bit guilty here of cherry-picking Scriptures like the Protestants do. The Pentateuch also has a law against mixing two different colored threads together to make a garment and says not to eat pork, yet, most of us will violate those rules several times in our life.

Is it really the "mixing two different coloured threads together to make a garment" that is prohibited, or is it the mixing of two different types of cloth?  I thought it was the latter.  Cotton-poly blend would not be appropriate, but I don't think it has to do with the colour.  The curtains of the Tent of Meeting were specifically ordered to be made of three different types of coloured thread, but presumably there was only one material.   

I think...
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Offline Ionnis

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2013, 10:00:46 PM »
Vatican Quickly Performs Damage Control On Pope’s Tolerant Remarks

WARNING: One "f-word" at the very end of the article.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/vatican-quickly-performs-damage-control-on-popes-t,33292/

;-)
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2013, 10:18:26 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Yeah,it's Benedict's fault that people don't  exercise responsibility.  You just implied that the pope is a killer or at least an accomplice to it.  You sicken me.  It's no small wonder why your parents don't give you the independence you crave:  you're still a kid!
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2013, 11:01:30 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Yeah,it's Benedict's fault that people don't  exercise responsibility.  You just implied that the pope is a killer or at least an accomplice to it.  You sicken me.  It's no small wonder why your parents don't give you the independence you crave:  you're still a kid!

I'm not the one blinded by patriotism to my crap *** country who thinks I deserve everything handed to me on a platter simply because I chose to pick up a gun and go out and fight the politicians' pointless wars. Who's the real kid?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2013, 11:16:47 PM »
Sometimes parents don't give their kids more independence not because they're kids but because they're clueless.  Qui legit intellegat.   
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2013, 11:18:53 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Yeah,it's Benedict's fault that people don't  exercise responsibility.  You just implied that the pope is a killer or at least an accomplice to it.  You sicken me.  It's no small wonder why your parents don't give you the independence you crave:  you're still a kid!

I'm not the one blinded by patriotism to my crap *** country who thinks I deserve everything handed to me on a platter simply because I chose to pick up a gun and go out and fight the politicians' pointless wars. Who's the real kid?

You must tell me more about myself over tea sometime.  I must be misinformed.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2013, 11:32:31 PM »
A lot better than that Pope Benedict guy responsible for the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa

Yeah,it's Benedict's fault that people don't  exercise responsibility.  You just implied that the pope is a killer or at least an accomplice to it.  You sicken me.  It's no small wonder why your parents don't give you the independence you crave:  you're still a kid!

I'm not the one blinded by patriotism to my crap *** country who thinks I deserve everything handed to me on a platter simply because I chose to pick up a gun and go out and fight the politicians' pointless wars. Who's the real kid?
???      ???      ???
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2013, 11:34:14 PM »
"For in thy sight there is none free from sin, not even the infant who has lived but a day upon this earth. Who brings this to my remembrance? Does not each little one, in whom I now observe what I no longer remember of myself? In what ways, in that time, did I sin? Was it that I cried for the breast? If I should now so cry--not indeed for the breast, but for food suitable to my condition--I should be most justly laughed at and rebuked. What I did then deserved rebuke but, since I could not understand those who rebuked me, neither custom nor common sense permitted me to be rebuked. As we grow we root out and cast away from us such childish habits. Yet I have not seen anyone who is wise who cast away the good when trying to purge the bad. Nor was it good, even in that time, to strive to get by crying what, if it had been given me, would have been hurtful; or to be bitterly indignant at those who, because they were older--not slaves, either, but free--and wiser than I, would not indulge my capricious desires. Was it a good thing for me to try, by struggling as hard as I could, to harm them for not obeying me, even when it would have done me harm to have been obeyed? Thus, the infant’s innocence lies in the weakness of his body and not in the infant mind. I have myself observed a baby to be jealous, though it could not speak; it was livid as it watched another infant at the breast.

Who is ignorant of this? Mothers and nurses tell us that they cure these things by I know not what remedies. But is this innocence, when the fountain of milk is flowing fresh and abundant, that another who needs it should not be allowed to share it, even though he requires such nourishment to sustain his life? Yet we look leniently on such things, not because they are not faults, or even small faults, but because they will vanish as the years pass. For, although we allow for such things in an infant, the same things could not be tolerated patiently in an adult." - St. Augustine, Confessions

Shhhh  ;)

You'll shatter the Ameridox notion that Western Saints aren't really Saints and that their theology must be discredited even though St. Augustine was Canonized a Saint in the 3rd Ecumenical Council and declared a doctor of the Church in the 5th :)

Hmm... Maybe it's the proven fact that St Augustine was wrong on sin and human nature? Saints make mistakes and errors to, he's a Saint, but his theological error eventually led to the decline of Rome into heresy.

Except the statements he made here are directly quoted in Orthodox liturgical services and are based on one of the most used Psalms (for a sinner my mother conceived, Psalm 50).
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant