Author Topic: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people". / Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays  (Read 36346 times)

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Offline tetepet

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #180 on: July 31, 2013, 07:10:00 AM »
About what the Pope said.
He said he is aware that there are people with sexual disoreintation and if they want to seek The Lord then who is he to Judge... he went on to say all homosexual acts are sins.
I think I agree with him.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #181 on: July 31, 2013, 09:08:38 AM »
He said the church had already pronounced itself on the issue and that it was not up to him to judge individual people.

That's standard Christian teaching on every form of sin.

1. Something is a sin;
2. We are not to judge the sinner;


What's new there? People are talking about it as if he was implying that homossexuality is not a sin. That's not what he said at all. He said he subscribes and believes what the church teaches about it, but we are not to judge people because of that.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #182 on: July 31, 2013, 09:14:01 AM »

Thanks! I was going to say, what exactly is a correct Biblical understanding of "homosexual"? I think that needs to continually be made clear in every discussion about homosexuality, especially when speaking with the unbelieving media/public who seem to always be looking for some kind of loop hole or justification. 

  It's my conviction there is no such thing as a "biblical understanding of homosexuality".   The modern idea of a homosexual is a 19th century late Victorian creation.   The Greco-Roman world tended to believe homosexual interest was caused by excessive sexual desire, perhaps fitting with Paul's description in Romans 1- but few educated people today would recognize that as homosexuality in the sense that most people understand it- a lifelong attraction exclusively to males.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #183 on: July 31, 2013, 09:38:50 AM »
Do you think there is money available for Scientits to try to prove a politically incorrect theory that does not conform to the current Gay Agenda?... I think it would be next to impossable.. Credible studies are very expensive.. Would NIH fund such a thing?.. Certainly not.. How about one the great  Universities? There would be riots if it was found out...

I don't buy it, man. Experts from a variety of fields are trying to understand why some people are homosexuals when most are not. What are the underlying causes? Is it all nature, or all nurture, or some combination of the two? That kind of thing. Anyway, what 'politically incorrect' theory do you feel needs proving? That homosexuals are just hellbound God-spiters?

Anyone lookig for the Hetero gene? And how come Homnosexuality is not to be overcome and is hardwired but Hetero sexuality is still just a desire? Don't we hear all the time form the Gay Movement that the truth is that Hetero's are really all bi sexual..It's a matter of choice for us..but not for them..They have a Gene that forces them. But the rest of us don't.. Lab results to follow.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're going on about with this.

My main point is that when there is a big hot button social issue or economic interests be careful of the "Science" that follows.. For example I know more about the topic Nutrition and the politics that surround it so let me draw an example from there to illustrate my point.

Everyone knows saturated fat is bad for you and causes heart disease. Most any doctor will follow that script if you ask him about it, If you question that assumption you will probably be told that there has been study after study after study that proves it...Except it isnt true. There really is no credible evidence and the studies that underpin that theory are laughably bogus. But the Lipid- heart ( fat is bad) theory got pushed. There were economic and social reasons that corrupted the Science..

Same here.

Let my try to think off the top of my head possible studies that go against the agenda and would be career enders.

The American Physiological Association declared some years ago that Homosexuality was not a physiologically abnormal and that Physiologists should no longer try to treat homosexuality but only help a suffering person adjust.

How about a meta analysis of that recommendation ( all studies taken together to find trends and confirm validity of conclusions). Do you think a critic can really look at all the data and determine why that recommendation was made and maybe show it had no real scientific basis or that the recommendation was due to political pressure? I bet not.

How about a study of which treatments are most successful in changing sexual orientation?  Career ender I bet.

How about looking for a Gay Gene as a genetic defect rather than proof Gay is normal... You could never approach the subject from that angle. It is politically incorrect. If you were part of a University, there would be demonstrations and your life would be in danger..

Nope, only one side of the story can be studied/funded right now..  
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 09:39:56 AM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #184 on: July 31, 2013, 09:54:31 AM »
Pertinent quotes to the conversation:  ;D

Quote
"There are three classes of witnesses—liars, damned liars, and experts." - Thomas Huxley

"False statements might be arranged according to their degree under three heads, fibs, lies, and statistics."  - Sir Charles Dilke

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain (or Benjamin Disraeli)

Heck, they even write books about it:

How to Lie with Statistics by Darrell Huff
God bless!

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #185 on: July 31, 2013, 09:59:18 AM »
Is anyone else sick of having all things gay shoved down their throat all the time?
I hope you aren't being a literalist...

But seriously, you should check out this latest report:

"New York, NY––During an interview given while walking from his airplane arriving from Brazil to the 1983 Ford Escort awaiting to take him to the Vatican, His Holiness Pope Francis declared the new ex-cathedra Catholic dogma that all members of the Catholic Church must become homosexual," http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/2013/07/29/pope-francis-declares-homosexuality-obligatory-for-all-catholics-new-york-times-reports/

 :laugh:

Offline theistgal

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #186 on: July 31, 2013, 09:59:51 AM »
Oh no, not the health stuff again ...  :P
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #187 on: July 31, 2013, 10:10:52 AM »
Oh and one more point.. The entire basic assumption of same sex attraction my be wrong and the Science that follows only confirms an erroneous hypothesis..

The assumption is that being Gay in hard wired into you. You are a "Type" of person. You are not a "Man" but a "Gay Man". Genetic confirmation to follow.

But what if homosexuality is really a phase and not a Type of being? Nothing makes a Gay person more defensive ( I have found) than someone switching orientation at some point in their life because that implies either choice or at least confounds the "third type of person" basic assumption.

For example, I have a good female friend who was married for many years and had two kids. He cheated, they got divorced Yada yada.

Then she took up with another woman also who had young kids and they moved in together. I asked her if she was always lesbian or unhappy sexually when she was married..Not in the least..Things change...This is right for her now...at this phase in her life.

When I told the story to a Gay relative, he got very defensive. He said it couldn't be, she must have been Gay all along.

I know several people who were Gay and now they are not, who were straight and now they are Gay..or were then weren't then are again then changed again.

An erroneous basic assumption can send Science down a path that is in reality meaningless, yet convincing.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #188 on: July 31, 2013, 10:14:29 AM »
...
Which brings an outsider to the next point, in a world where sexuality and relationships are marketed as "the norm".  How does a celibate person find happiness and meaning? 

This sort of implies that romantic relationships and sexuality are -the element- that leads to happiness and meaning for people. I don't believe that is true for even the non-believer. 

Think of an athlete...is it his sport that gives his life meaning, or the fact he has a relationship?  Or an artist?  or a scholar.....





But didnt Sigmund Freud teach that everything is done with sex as the motive?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #189 on: July 31, 2013, 10:41:45 AM »
...
Which brings an outsider to the next point, in a world where sexuality and relationships are marketed as "the norm".  How does a celibate person find happiness and meaning? 

This sort of implies that romantic relationships and sexuality are -the element- that leads to happiness and meaning for people. I don't believe that is true for even the non-believer. 

Think of an athlete...is it his sport that gives his life meaning, or the fact he has a relationship?  Or an artist?  or a scholar.....





But didnt Sigmund Freud teach that everything is done with sex as the motive?
Why do you think I post on oc.net? For sex, of course.  ;D
God bless!

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #190 on: July 31, 2013, 01:35:44 PM »
...
Which brings an outsider to the next point, in a world where sexuality and relationships are marketed as "the norm".  How does a celibate person find happiness and meaning? 

This sort of implies that romantic relationships and sexuality are -the element- that leads to happiness and meaning for people. I don't believe that is true for even the non-believer. 

Think of an athlete...is it his sport that gives his life meaning, or the fact he has a relationship?  Or an artist?  or a scholar.....





But didnt Sigmund Freud teach that everything is done with sex as the motive?
Why do you think I post on oc.net? For sex, of course.  ;D

I knew it !
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #191 on: July 31, 2013, 01:42:42 PM »
Do you think there is money available for Scientits to try to prove a politically incorrect theory that does not conform to the current Gay Agenda?... I think it would be next to impossable.. Credible studies are very expensive.. Would NIH fund such a thing?.. Certainly not.. How about one the great  Universities? There would be riots if it was found out...

I don't buy it, man. Experts from a variety of fields are trying to understand why some people are homosexuals when most are not. What are the underlying causes? Is it all nature, or all nurture, or some combination of the two? That kind of thing. Anyway, what 'politically incorrect' theory do you feel needs proving? That homosexuals are just hellbound God-spiters?

Anyone lookig for the Hetero gene? And how come Homnosexuality is not to be overcome and is hardwired but Hetero sexuality is still just a desire? Don't we hear all the time form the Gay Movement that the truth is that Hetero's are really all bi sexual..It's a matter of choice for us..but not for them..They have a Gene that forces them. But the rest of us don't.. Lab results to follow.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're going on about with this.

My main point is that when there is a big hot button social issue or economic interests be careful of the "Science" that follows.. For example I know more about the topic Nutrition and the politics that surround it so let me draw an example from there to illustrate my point.

Everyone knows saturated fat is bad for you and causes heart disease. Most any doctor will follow that script if you ask him about it, If you question that assumption you will probably be told that there has been study after study after study that proves it...Except it isn't true. There really is no credible evidence and the studies that underpin that theory are laughably bogus. But the Lipid- heart ( fat is bad) theory got pushed. There were economic and social reasons that corrupted the Science..

Same here.

Let my try to think off the top of my head possible studies that go against the agenda and would be career enders.

The American Physiological Association declared some years ago that Homosexuality was not a physiologically abnormal and that Physiologists should no longer try to treat homosexuality but only help a suffering person adjust.

How about a meta analysis of that recommendation ( all studies taken together to find trends and confirm validity of conclusions). Do you think a critic can really look at all the data and determine why that recommendation was made and maybe show it had no real scientific basis or that the recommendation was due to political pressure? I bet not.

How about a study of which treatments are most successful in changing sexual orientation? Career ender I bet.

How about looking for a Gay Gene as a genetic defect rather than proof Gay is normal... You could never approach the subject from that angle. It is politically incorrect. If you were part of a University, there would be demonstrations and your life would be in danger..

Nope, only one side of the story can be studied/funded right now..  

LOL..The American PSYCOLOGICAL Association..not Physiological..Thanks Spell ck .
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #192 on: July 31, 2013, 03:42:27 PM »
Okay, I'm really trying to understand this.

Everything the Pope said is perfectly in alignment with traditional Catholic teaching as far as I understand it.  However what I do not understand is how the media is blowing this way out of proportion, making the Pope seem more "liberal and progressive" when he's not at all.  Even worse is that many among the LGBT community online are also reading his words out of context, causing them to feel that the Pope is shifting the Catholic Church's stance on these issues when he is not doing so.  

I get the "jist" of what the Roman Catholic Church teaches in regards to homosexuality, etc. from their Catechism.  I understand that both the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic churches view homosexual acts to be sinful in nature and that those with same sex attraction are called to a life of celibacy.

Which brings an outsider to the next point, in a world where sexuality and relationships are marketed as "the norm".  How does a celibate person find happiness and meaning?  
Happiness is not just doing whatever one wants, but bringing one's passions under the control of reason, so that they are orderd to their proper end. In this way, the person is whole, not at war with himself, but living in quiet peace.

Modern society would have us believe that happiness is doing what we want, when we want to.

People need to read the Repulic. As the old man in the Chronicles of Narnia says, "What are they teaching these days? It's all in Plato! It's all in Plato."
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 03:45:05 PM by Papist »
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #193 on: July 31, 2013, 03:43:02 PM »
...
Which brings an outsider to the next point, in a world where sexuality and relationships are marketed as "the norm".  How does a celibate person find happiness and meaning? 

This sort of implies that romantic relationships and sexuality are -the element- that leads to happiness and meaning for people. I don't believe that is true for even the non-believer. 

Think of an athlete...is it his sport that gives his life meaning, or the fact he has a relationship?  Or an artist?  or a scholar.....





But didnt Sigmund Freud teach that everything is done with sex as the motive?
Why do you think I post on oc.net? For sex, of course.  ;D

Probably the most interesting and informative post in this thread subforum forum board.  You have totally stumped me and I have nothing more to say by way of response.  (Some may be thanking God for that! ;D)
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #194 on: July 31, 2013, 03:56:25 PM »
...
Which brings an outsider to the next point, in a world where sexuality and relationships are marketed as "the norm".  How does a celibate person find happiness and meaning? 

This sort of implies that romantic relationships and sexuality are -the element- that leads to happiness and meaning for people. I don't believe that is true for even the non-believer. 

Think of an athlete...is it his sport that gives his life meaning, or the fact he has a relationship?  Or an artist?  or a scholar.....





But didnt Sigmund Freud teach that everything is done with sex as the motive?
Why do you think I post on oc.net? For sex, of course.  ;D

Probably the most interesting and informative post in this thread subforum forum board.  You have totally stumped me and I have nothing more to say by way of response.  (Some may be thanking God for that! ;D)
That is probably best.  I shake my head and half the things I post as well.  ;)
God bless!

Offline Sirach

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #195 on: August 01, 2013, 12:02:10 AM »
I know that I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but has anyone posted what Pope Francis actually said? 

In response to a question about a "gay lobby" in the Vatican he said:

"There is so much being written about the gay lobby. I haven’t met anyone in the Vatican yet who has “gay” written on their identity cards. There is a distinction between being gay, being this way inclined and lobbying. Lobbies are not good. If a gay person is in eager search of God, who am I to judge them? The Catholic Church teaches that gay people should not be discriminated against; they should be made to feel welcome. Being gay is not the problem, lobbying is the problem and this goes for any type of lobby, business lobbies, political lobbies and Masonic lobbies.”

Source:  Vatican Insider.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #196 on: August 01, 2013, 04:51:40 AM »
I know that I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but has anyone posted what Pope Francis actually said? 

In response to a question about a "gay lobby" in the Vatican he said:

"There is so much being written about the gay lobby. I haven’t met anyone in the Vatican yet who has “gay” written on their identity cards. There is a distinction between being gay, being this way inclined and lobbying. Lobbies are not good. If a gay person is in eager search of God, who am I to judge them? The Catholic Church teaches that gay people should not be discriminated against; they should be made to feel welcome. Being gay is not the problem, lobbying is the problem and this goes for any type of lobby, business lobbies, political lobbies and Masonic lobbies.”

Source:  Vatican Insider.

The correct term the Church properly uses is Homosexual, not the soft-soaped, watered down, PC word "gay" that the militant homosexuals and cultural marxists use and the pope so conveniently employs to soften the blow of just what the reality is of what we're dealing with here. This is just another example of where this guy is coming from, I believe that he is placating a disproportion number in the clergy that are infected with this "intrinsic disorder" and wants to stay in their good graces to keep the peace during his the tenure of his papacy and not to appear "uncharitable" to the sexual deviants lurking about parishes throughout the globe.

Anyway, the Church is very clear on Homosexuality and the treatment of homosexuals;

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which
presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #197 on: August 01, 2013, 05:08:01 AM »
Seems while Francis is out there with his placating homosexuals, dancing bishops and refusing certain papal "privliges"," Mr. Humility" goes about with an iron fist crushing something so terrifying as the TLM..... >:(

While they're out there shutting down parishes and razing churches because no one is interested in the New age Mass these days , those out there desperately holding on to the foundations of Tradition, the bedrock of the Church are attempting to be muzzeled by Mr.Nice Guy on the Chair of Peter. >:(


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/07/important-pope-francis-severely.html


IMPORTANT: Pope Francis severely restricts the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate from celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass, imposes the Novus Ordo on all their priestsUPDATE: FULL TEXT OF THE DECREE that abrogates Summorum for the FFI
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Offline Matthew79

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #198 on: August 01, 2013, 06:09:41 AM »

Thanks! I was going to say, what exactly is a correct Biblical understanding of "homosexual"? I think that needs to continually be made clear in every discussion about homosexuality, especially when speaking with the unbelieving media/public who seem to always be looking for some kind of loop hole or justification. 

  It's my conviction there is no such thing as a "biblical understanding of homosexuality".   The modern idea of a homosexual is a 19th century late Victorian creation.   The Greco-Roman world tended to believe homosexual interest was caused by excessive sexual desire, perhaps fitting with Paul's description in Romans 1- but few educated people today would recognize that as homosexuality in the sense that most people understand it- a lifelong attraction exclusively to males.

Agreed. And I think the reason we are understanding it this way today is because science has "proven" the "gay gene". So people think being gay is not just an act, but an identity, but this isn't what Scripture teaches. I realize the Pope's statement wasn't presented as a theological defense, but  since he put that out there, I think he needs to explain this more. I am not comfortable with his allowing gays as priests unless, and only unless, they have their desires under total submission to Christ and are showing consisent victory in rejecting those temptations. If they are successful in this area of their life, then I wouldn't call them "gay priests", that's not their identity. They are priests who have battled and have won against their sin. If they are not fighting their sinful nature effectively, how can they teach their parishioners to do the same? I think they should not judge, welcome them with open arms, allow them to seek God and participate in worship, but not to leave them in their sin and certainly not placing them in leadership until they have proven they are fully trusting and trying to obey Christ in everything.

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #199 on: August 01, 2013, 07:13:03 AM »
Do you think there is money available for Scientits to try to prove a politically incorrect theory that does not conform to the current Gay Agenda?... I think it would be next to impossable.. Credible studies are very expensive.. Would NIH fund such a thing?.. Certainly not.. How about one the great  Universities? There would be riots if it was found out...

I don't buy it, man. Experts from a variety of fields are trying to understand why some people are homosexuals when most are not. What are the underlying causes? Is it all nature, or all nurture, or some combination of the two? That kind of thing. Anyway, what 'politically incorrect' theory do you feel needs proving? That homosexuals are just hellbound God-spiters?

Anyone lookig for the Hetero gene? And how come Homnosexuality is not to be overcome and is hardwired but Hetero sexuality is still just a desire? Don't we hear all the time form the Gay Movement that the truth is that Hetero's are really all bi sexual..It's a matter of choice for us..but not for them..They have a Gene that forces them. But the rest of us don't.. Lab results to follow.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're going on about with this.

My main point is that when there is a big hot button social issue or economic interests be careful of the "Science" that follows.. For example I know more about the topic Nutrition and the politics that surround it so let me draw an example from there to illustrate my point.

Everyone knows saturated fat is bad for you and causes heart disease. Most any doctor will follow that script if you ask him about it, If you question that assumption you will probably be told that there has been study after study after study that proves it...Except it isnt true. There really is no credible evidence and the studies that underpin that theory are laughably bogus. But the Lipid- heart ( fat is bad) theory got pushed. There were economic and social reasons that corrupted the Science..

Same here.

Let my try to think off the top of my head possible studies that go against the agenda and would be career enders.

The American Physiological Association declared some years ago that Homosexuality was not a physiologically abnormal and that Physiologists should no longer try to treat homosexuality but only help a suffering person adjust.

How about a meta analysis of that recommendation ( all studies taken together to find trends and confirm validity of conclusions). Do you think a critic can really look at all the data and determine why that recommendation was made and maybe show it had no real scientific basis or that the recommendation was due to political pressure? I bet not.

How about a study of which treatments are most successful in changing sexual orientation?  Career ender I bet.

How about looking for a Gay Gene as a genetic defect rather than proof Gay is normal... You could never approach the subject from that angle. It is politically incorrect. If you were part of a University, there would be demonstrations and your life would be in danger..

Nope, only one side of the story can be studied/funded right now..  

I know! Let's just accept science and use science when it benefits us but doesn't threaten cherished beliefs based on religious texts, and then throw out science as "theory" or as guided by a diabolic and/or political agenda whenever it does contradict said beliefs. Then everyone can be happy!  :-\

Look, more and more scientific studies are demonstrating that there are underlying reasons - both genetic and environmental - for gayness. Science would not be doing its job if it didn't look further into these findings. If these findings didn't continually show up in studies, then we could dismiss the notion that there are any underlying causes to homosexuality. But they do show up. And so people continue to study and investigate them further. The thing is, I see no good reason aside from religious ones to try to look for reasons that homosexuality is bad or wrong or sinful. That kind of search would be based on a religious desire to defend one's beliefs/religious dogmas, not on a scientific desire to simply understand the causes of homosexuality.

Quote
How about a study of which treatments are most successful in changing sexual orientation?  Career ender I bet.

When studies evaluate the success of treatments in changing sexual orientation are done, the successes and failures must both be acknowledged and investigated. This would only be a "career ender", I bet, if someone was tweaking or cherry picking data to support a religious conviction. Alas, this happens a lot, and you're right, while it might sell them a lot of books, it won't protect their "scientific" career from crumbling. Go ahead and research reparative therapy to your heart's content, though. I think you'll find that, aside from Christian supporters of the "therapy", it is unanimously rejected as being both ineffective and harmful in the long run (even if there are a handful of "success stories").

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #200 on: August 01, 2013, 07:17:51 AM »

Thanks! I was going to say, what exactly is a correct Biblical understanding of "homosexual"? I think that needs to continually be made clear in every discussion about homosexuality, especially when speaking with the unbelieving media/public who seem to always be looking for some kind of loop hole or justification. 

  It's my conviction there is no such thing as a "biblical understanding of homosexuality".   The modern idea of a homosexual is a 19th century late Victorian creation.   The Greco-Roman world tended to believe homosexual interest was caused by excessive sexual desire, perhaps fitting with Paul's description in Romans 1- but few educated people today would recognize that as homosexuality in the sense that most people understand it- a lifelong attraction exclusively to males.

An astute observation, Daedelus1138! I think you are most likely correct about this.

Offline Balthasar

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #201 on: August 01, 2013, 08:02:56 AM »

"Who am I?" asked himself, the Pope ::) God's representative numero uno on planet earth!
I think the Catholic church is now officially controled by Satan. Christians are murdered every day, priestes are kidnapped and slaughtered like a sheep, and the Pope celebrates a joyeful feast in one of the most sodomite places of the world:m Copacabana. We are in trouble!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #202 on: August 01, 2013, 08:08:39 AM »

"Who am I?" asked himself, the Pope ::) God's representative numero uno on planet earth!
I think the Catholic church is now officially controled by Satan. Christians are murdered every day, priestes are kidnapped and slaughtered like a sheep, and the Pope celebrates a joyeful feast in one of the most sodomite places of the world:m Copacabana. We are in trouble!

Well, that is no way to speak of Pope Theodoros II!
God bless!

Offline augustin717

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #203 on: August 01, 2013, 08:41:57 AM »
It's a good a example of tollerance and understanding of others, but for a Christian, let alone a pope, I find these words way too superficial. The Catholic Church seems to have no real fiber, it preaches that everything is ok, that all religions are acceptable, yet they themselves cling to the most authoritative and scary dogmas (heaven and hell included). It's rather insane, but not saying this against the people, just the phenomenon.
Christians should show no tolerance or understanding of others. Perhaps the pope should have ranted like some Romanian monks I see on the Internet ... I'm sure there are others too, but language barriers prevent me from receiving their wisdom
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 08:44:40 AM by augustin717 »
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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #204 on: August 01, 2013, 09:46:58 AM »
one of the most sodomite places of the world:m Copacabana.

Say that to their face and they'll put you in a guillotine (BJJ style)!
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Offline biro

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #205 on: August 01, 2013, 09:53:36 AM »

"Who am I?" asked himself, the Pope ::) God's representative numero uno on planet earth!
I think the Catholic church is now officially controled by Satan. Christians are murdered every day, priestes are kidnapped and slaughtered like a sheep, and the Pope celebrates a joyeful feast in one of the most sodomite places of the world:m Copacabana. We are in trouble!

Also, non-Christians are murdered every day, too.

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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #206 on: August 01, 2013, 09:57:21 AM »
Copacabana is known to be inhabitted mostly by elderly people. The young and cool never move there and it's far from being a "sodomite" burrough.

It's a touristic area so you get all kinds of people there. It is very diversified.

Indeed, it's in Copacabana that we have the cathedral of the Polish Orthodox Church in Brazil who, along with the Serbians,  are the only de facto missionary churches in the land.

There are still thefts there? Yeps, specially if you leave valuables on the sand. During night time you'll find prostitutes, both male and female in some streets and nightclubs? You bet. But of all things, a "sodomite" area it's not and it could not be, since it receives *all* kinds of tourists from all over the world.


"Who am I?" asked himself, the Pope ::) God's representative numero uno on planet earth!
I think the Catholic church is now officially controled by Satan. Christians are murdered every day, priestes are kidnapped and slaughtered like a sheep, and the Pope celebrates a joyeful feast in one of the most sodomite places of the world:m Copacabana. We are in trouble!
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #207 on: August 01, 2013, 10:10:28 AM »
Normal day in Copacabana. Can you spot the sodomites?
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #208 on: August 01, 2013, 10:11:42 AM »
ACK!  THERE IS A WHOLE BUS OF THEM, RUN FOR COVER!!!
God bless!

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #209 on: August 01, 2013, 10:18:29 AM »
At first I thought the guy on the right had a gun  :D
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #210 on: August 01, 2013, 10:27:40 AM »
At first I thought the guy on the right had a gun  :D

It sure looks like it. :)

He's just a "gari"(dustman) in uniform.

Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #211 on: August 01, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
Move along. There's nothing to see here.

Read THIS piece by Father Jon Morris on Fox News:

"But, unfortunately, if you were reading the headlines from some media outlets, you would have learned just one thing. As the Huffington Post put it: “Breakthrough: Pope OK with Gays.”
This is the worst coverage of a religious story I have seen to date.
Let’s begin with the fact that the pope has always been “OK” with homosexuals.  In fact, by the demands of his own religion he is required to be much more than just “OK.”  The Christian faith teaches that every person is endowed by God with an inviolable dignity and therefore deserves our unconditional respect and love"    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/29/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-gays-and-no-it-not-new/#ixzz2ajDl5HA6

What the Pope said was no different from what we Orthodox teach.

"The position of the Orthodox Church toward homosexual acts has been expressed by synodicals, canons and patristic pronouncements from the very first centuries of Orthodox ecclesiastical life. In them, the Orthodox Church condemns unreservedly all expressions of personal sexual experience which prove contrary to the definite and unalterable function ascribed to sex by God's ordinance and expressed in man's experience as a law of nature. The Orthodox Church believes that homosexual behavior is a sin.  In full confidentiality the Orthodox Church cares and provides pastorally for homosexuals in the belief that no sinner who has failed himself and God should be allowed to deteriorate morally and spiritually."
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #212 on: August 01, 2013, 10:32:35 AM »
Do you think there is money available for Scientits to try to prove a politically incorrect theory that does not conform to the current Gay Agenda?... I think it would be next to impossable.. Credible studies are very expensive.. Would NIH fund such a thing?.. Certainly not.. How about one the great  Universities? There would be riots if it was found out...

I don't buy it, man. Experts from a variety of fields are trying to understand why some people are homosexuals when most are not. What are the underlying causes? Is it all nature, or all nurture, or some combination of the two? That kind of thing. Anyway, what 'politically incorrect' theory do you feel needs proving? That homosexuals are just hellbound God-spiters?

Anyone lookig for the Hetero gene? And how come Homnosexuality is not to be overcome and is hardwired but Hetero sexuality is still just a desire? Don't we hear all the time form the Gay Movement that the truth is that Hetero's are really all bi sexual..It's a matter of choice for us..but not for them..They have a Gene that forces them. But the rest of us don't.. Lab results to follow.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're going on about with this.

My main point is that when there is a big hot button social issue or economic interests be careful of the "Science" that follows.. For example I know more about the topic Nutrition and the politics that surround it so let me draw an example from there to illustrate my point.

Everyone knows saturated fat is bad for you and causes heart disease. Most any doctor will follow that script if you ask him about it, If you question that assumption you will probably be told that there has been study after study after study that proves it...Except it isnt true. There really is no credible evidence and the studies that underpin that theory are laughably bogus. But the Lipid- heart ( fat is bad) theory got pushed. There were economic and social reasons that corrupted the Science..

Same here.

Let my try to think off the top of my head possible studies that go against the agenda and would be career enders.

The American Physiological Association declared some years ago that Homosexuality was not a physiologically abnormal and that Physiologists should no longer try to treat homosexuality but only help a suffering person adjust.

How about a meta analysis of that recommendation ( all studies taken together to find trends and confirm validity of conclusions). Do you think a critic can really look at all the data and determine why that recommendation was made and maybe show it had no real scientific basis or that the recommendation was due to political pressure? I bet not.

How about a study of which treatments are most successful in changing sexual orientation?  Career ender I bet.

How about looking for a Gay Gene as a genetic defect rather than proof Gay is normal... You could never approach the subject from that angle. It is politically incorrect. If you were part of a University, there would be demonstrations and your life would be in danger..

Nope, only one side of the story can be studied/funded right now..  

I know! Let's just accept science and use science when it benefits us but doesn't threaten cherished beliefs based on religious texts, and then throw out science as "theory" or as guided by a diabolic and/or political agenda whenever it does contradict said beliefs. Then everyone can be happy!  :-\

Look, more and more scientific studies are demonstrating that there are underlying reasons - both genetic and environmental - for gayness. Science would not be doing its job if it didn't look further into these findings. If these findings didn't continually show up in studies, then we could dismiss the notion that there are any underlying causes to homosexuality. But they do show up. And so people continue to study and investigate them further. The thing is, I see no good reason aside from religious ones to try to look for reasons that homosexuality is bad or wrong or sinful. That kind of search would be based on a religious desire to defend one's beliefs/religious dogmas, not on a scientific desire to simply understand the causes of homosexuality.

Quote
How about a study of which treatments are most successful in changing sexual orientation?  Career ender I bet.

When studies evaluate the success of treatments in changing sexual orientation are done, the successes and failures must both be acknowledged and investigated. This would only be a "career ender", I bet, if someone was tweaking or cherry picking data to support a religious conviction. Alas, this happens a lot, and you're right, while it might sell them a lot of books, it won't protect their "scientific" career from crumbling. Go ahead and research reparative therapy to your heart's content, though. I think you'll find that, aside from Christian supporters of the "therapy", it is unanimously rejected as being both ineffective and harmful in the long run (even if there are a handful of "success stories").

You have miss characterized my views on this.

Unfortunately, the level of corruption within the Scientific community is shocking, at least to me. There is more bad science, tweaked to fit agenda's or protect turf or elevate or protect careers than you may know. They are often the ones to discard results that don't fit the agenda than the other way around.. I realize how disappointing that is. Sad but true.

All I am saying is that when scientific investigation follows a hot button social, political or economic issue it is ripe for corruption. That has been true in all kinds of area's from Physics ( look into Bad Science and Cold Fusion) to public health..  Cavet Emptor
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #213 on: August 01, 2013, 11:02:41 AM »
An astute observation, Daedelus1138! I think you are most likely correct about this.

  To clarify, I don't consider homosexual acts to be necessarily sinful.   However,  I do think the issue is more complicated than Biblicism will permit.   And regardless of all the nuance, at the popular level a great many ordinary people, influenced by religion, interpret Christian teachings, showing that gay persons are defective in a unique way, thus opening then up to persecution and contempt.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #214 on: August 01, 2013, 03:56:01 PM »
It's like Celebrity Deathmatch without celebrities. 

Isn't that like "Dancing with the Stars"...no dancing and no stars?

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #215 on: August 01, 2013, 05:11:49 PM »
It's like Celebrity Deathmatch without celebrities. 

Isn't that like "Dancing with the Stars"...no dancing and no stars?
More like "Dancing with the Bishops"... ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT3Rg0qUq3E&sns=em
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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #216 on: August 01, 2013, 05:38:19 PM »
I love the one in the foreground dancing with the youth.  And by "love", I mean I'm laughing at him, not with him.  :P
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #217 on: August 01, 2013, 05:39:06 PM »
LOL..The American PSYCOLOGICAL Association..not Physiological..Thanks Spell ck .

Your spell check still didn't get it right.  ::)  ;D
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #218 on: August 01, 2013, 05:54:45 PM »
I love the one in the foreground dancing with the youth.  And by "love", I mean I'm laughing at him, not with him.  :P
This is much of the problem with the Norvus Ordo Church these days. do these guys even realize how foolish they look or even care to begin with? Yea, yea, I know, it's all for "da chill-drenz" and all that. Doesn't deter from the fact that of how ridiculous these supposed elders of the clergy look and the signal their sending worldwide to other denominations or even religions.

I wonder if we'd ever see a group of Patriarchs behaving like this in an attempt to communicate to a few adolescents.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:56:02 PM by Charles Martel »
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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #219 on: August 01, 2013, 06:14:00 PM »
It's a tough position to be in: adults think they know what appeals to young people because some people, not necessarily young, told them that X, Y, and Z appeal to the young.  But young people often have a different idea of what is appealing and what's a turn off, and it's not usually what the adults are thinking.  So their heart may be in the right place, but not their heads.

Another problem is the position they were in.  If the bishops didn't have to be there, they could've easily avoided that entirely.  But when a towering wall of bishops is facing down a crowd of many thousands (millions?) of young people doing "something like that", what do you do?  If you join in, you look rather silly.  If you sit and watch, either you look like you're sitting in judgement over "da chill-drenz" or you're being patronising.  Given the media bias against the RC's, it wouldn't surprise me if people would accuse bishops of behaving inappropriately by sitting idly and watching young people move, sway, and gyrate.  Joining in the silliness may have been the least of evils if "just don't go" really wasn't an option.   

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Offline Matthew79

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #220 on: August 01, 2013, 06:15:12 PM »
An astute observation, Daedelus1138! I think you are most likely correct about this.

  To clarify, I don't consider homosexual acts to be necessarily sinful.   However,  I do think the issue is more complicated than Biblicism will permit.   And regardless of all the nuance, at the popular level a great many ordinary people, influenced by religion, interpret Christian teachings, showing that gay persons are defective in a unique way, thus opening then up to persecution and contempt.

What do you mean by "necessarily"? Are there situations where homosexuality is sinful or are you trying to give room for an unknown possibility? So desire is sinful, but attraction isn't? Can you explain more the difference between desire and attraction?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 06:19:13 PM by Matthew79 »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #221 on: August 01, 2013, 06:37:36 PM »
It's a tough position to be in: adults think they know what appeals to young people because some people, not necessarily young, told them that X, Y, and Z appeal to the young.  But young people often have a different idea of what is appealing and what's a turn off, and it's not usually what the adults are thinking.  So their heart may be in the right place, but not their heads.

Another problem is the position they were in.  If the bishops didn't have to be there, they could've easily avoided that entirely.  But when a towering wall of bishops is facing down a crowd of many thousands (millions?) of young people doing "something like that", what do you do?  If you join in, you look rather silly.  If you sit and watch, either you look like you're sitting in judgement over "da chill-drenz" or you're being patronising.  Given the media bias against the RC's, it wouldn't surprise me if people would accuse bishops of behaving inappropriately by sitting idly and watching young people move, sway, and gyrate.  Joining in the silliness may have been the least of evils if "just don't go" really wasn't an option.   


WWJD? Or should I say, what DID Jesus do?


He let the children come to him and comforted them in a fatherly fashion, not acted like a buffon in order to get their attention.

We don't need to act childlike in order to reach children but act parent-like.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #222 on: August 01, 2013, 07:42:14 PM »
Quote
FYI, male adult celibate homosexuals can be ordained in the Orthodox Church...

Fixed it for you.  No charge.

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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays
« Reply #223 on: August 01, 2013, 08:16:56 PM »
An astute observation, Daedelus1138! I think you are most likely correct about this.

  To clarify, I don't consider homosexual acts to be necessarily sinful.   However,  I do think the issue is more complicated than Biblicism will permit.   And regardless of all the nuance, at the popular level a great many ordinary people, influenced by religion, interpret Christian teachings, showing that gay persons are defective in a unique way, thus opening then up to persecution and contempt.

What do you mean by "necessarily"? Are there situations where homosexuality is sinful or are you trying to give room for an unknown possibility? So desire is sinful, but attraction isn't? Can you explain more the difference between desire and attraction?


Entertaining a desire or lusting after someone would be considered sinful regardless of who was the object according those guides on confession I have read.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #224 on: August 01, 2013, 08:20:47 PM »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.