Author Topic: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people". / Pope Francis Acceptance of Gays  (Read 10853 times)

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Offline Santagranddad

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Heard part of a snippet on BBC radio referring to the Pope saying we need to be kinder to Gay people. Then on arriving home found the following article in today's The Times.

www.thetimes.co.uk/to/faith/article3828576.ece

This appears to represent a significant shift from that of his immediate predecessor.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 09:57:02 AM »
Heard part of a snippet on BBC radio referring to the Pope saying we need to be kinder to Gay people. Then on arriving home found the following article in today's The Times.

www.thetimes.co.uk/to/faith/article3828576.ece

This appears to represent a significant shift from that of his immediate predecessor.

I've thought the liberal media has been skewing him into a "progressive" Pope. But more and more he's sadly proving them right.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 10:09:30 AM »
Er, if you read the whole thing, he doesn't say much that's objectionable.

Quote
Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not.

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"

And on Women Priests:

Quote
He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests.

What's the outrage here?

Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 10:14:33 AM »
Er, if you read the whole thing, he doesn't say much that's objectionable.

Quote
Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not.

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"

And on Women Priests:

Quote
He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests.

What's the outrage here?
Yeah, sounds like the Pope is saying exactly what the Catholic Church has been saying all along.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 10:15:22 AM »
I deliberately made no comment on the article and feel it needs to be read in it's entirety first. After some time to reflect will add my twopence worth.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 10:48:02 AM »
Er, if you read the whole thing, he doesn't say much that's objectionable.

Quote
Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not.

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"

And on Women Priests:

Quote
He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests.

What's the outrage here?

Ah, I see the article I read just took his quote out of context, as usual...

Good on him!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 10:53:47 AM »
Yes, I felt the Pope took a very wise approach on the topic.  This guy is exactly what the RC Church needs right now.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 11:07:48 AM »
Yes, I felt the Pope took a very wise approach on the topic.  This guy is exactly what the RC Church needs right now.

The RC needs more of his type AND more of Benedict's type. 
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Offline Papist

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 11:16:57 AM »
Yes, I felt the Pope took a very wise approach on the topic.  This guy is exactly what the RC Church needs right now.

The RC needs more of his type AND more of Benedict's type. 
YES!  :)
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 11:42:01 AM »
His words appear to be very measured and balanced. Certainly his remarks about the undesirability of lobbies strikes a cord as does his clear distinction between an orientation and sexual acts.

While finding Latin teaching erroneous in a number of areas gone over many times, I am cautious always of media commentaries and reports and especially when it comes to religious matters and communities. But no doubt someone will take issue with anything he says or does, whether or not such criticism is accurate or fair.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 12:37:38 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 12:51:38 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.

Who you are sexually attracted to isn't a sin, but acting on such attraction is.

Being inclined to being addicted to alcohol and drunkenness isn't asin, but actually giving in and getting drunk is a sin.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 01:11:09 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:11:24 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 01:20:08 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin. But on the other hand we have loads of EOs who claim that the original sin is not sin either.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:21:14 PM by Alpo »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2013, 01:23:39 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin. But on the other hand we have loads of EOs who claim that the original sin is not sin either.
but then, according to the same mythology-not using the word pejoratively- life itself as we know it, is quite a transgrssion from God's original plan.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2013, 01:24:11 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin.

So is autism a sin? Or those born blind?
What about someone born with a predisposition to addiction?

No, those are not sins. Neither is being homosexual. But acting upon your fallen state is a sin. If you are attracted to the same sex and commit sexual acts, you're falling to sin. If you are predisposed to alcohol addiction and get drunk, you are committing a sin.

Being homosexual is as much of a sin as being heterosexual. It's not. But acting upon those feelings is what is sinful.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2013, 01:26:10 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin. But on the other hand we have loads of EOs who claim that the original sin is not sin either.
but then, according to the same mythology-not using the word pejoratively- life itself as we know it, is quite a transgrssion from God's original plan.

It seems as though Alpo's view of our fallen nature is more like an Augustinian/Latin view of sin and fallenness, rather than the Orthodox view.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 01:28:52 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin. But on the other hand we have loads of EOs who claim that the original sin is not sin either.
but then, according to the same mythology-not using the word pejoratively- life itself as we know it, is quite a transgrssion from God's original plan.

It seems as though Alpo's view of our fallen nature is more like an Augustinian/Latin view of sin and fallenness, rather than the Orthodox view.
don't flatter me to that extent. i haven't come up yet with a widely known and accepted view on the fallen nature. i'm working on it though, although i'm most skeptical about 'nature".

Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 01:30:06 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin. But on the other hand we have loads of EOs who claim that the original sin is not sin either.
but then, according to the same mythology-not using the word pejoratively- life itself as we know it, is quite a transgrssion from God's original plan.

Pretty much. I don't have any carefully elaborated theory on this but you're probably aware of the fact that historically Christianity has had fairly grim view of most of this-worldy things.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2013, 01:31:53 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin. But on the other hand we have loads of EOs who claim that the original sin is not sin either.
but then, according to the same mythology-not using the word pejoratively- life itself as we know it, is quite a transgrssion from God's original plan.

It seems as though Alpo's view of our fallen nature is more like an Augustinian/Latin view of sin and fallenness, rather than the Orthodox view.

Here we go again. I don't buy that dichotomy. In fact, I'm not exactly convinced there is any dichotomy at all.
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Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2013, 01:33:02 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin.

So is autism a sin? Or those born blind?
What about someone born with a predisposition to addiction?

No, those are not sins.

Yes, they are. That's basic Orthodox theology: the fallen state of the world, including death, disease and decay, "misses the mark" from God's original plan for the cosmos and is therefore sinful.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 01:35:53 PM »
Can you explain a bit more?  Are you saying that if I get sick, it is a sin?  Should I repent of my sickness?
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 01:42:29 PM »
Can you explain a bit more?  Are you saying that if I get sick, it is a sin?  Should I repent of my sickness?

Is sickness part of God's original plan for the cosmos? Do you try and rectify sickness when it occurs?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline sheenj

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 01:43:41 PM »
Can you explain a bit more?  Are you saying that if I get sick, it is a sin?  Should I repent of my sickness?

Is sickness part of God's original plan for the cosmos? Do you try and rectify sickness when it occurs?

So do I have to confess the next time I have the flu?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 01:44:58 PM »
Can you explain a bit more?  Are you saying that if I get sick, it is a sin?  Should I repent of my sickness?

Is sickness part of God's original plan for the cosmos? Do you try and rectify sickness when it occurs?
I suppose I do.  I take Tylenol.  Is that the sin or is inhaling the germs a sin?
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 01:47:18 PM »
ITT people who think sin is a legal transgression and not a deviation from the original good God intended for us

I don't understand how Orthodox people don't know the Orthodox view of sin. I know orthonorm has run into this problem on this forum before too.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:47:35 PM by William »
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 01:59:35 PM »
POPE- "Who am I to judge Gay people?"

BIBLE- "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24

You're welcome, sir.  :)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 02:01:32 PM »
William,
I think you are confusing sin with the result of sin.  Sickness is a result of our sinful condition.  It is not in and of itself a sin.  The article that you posted says as much.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 02:03:41 PM »
I think there's a difference between saying sickness is the result/consequence of sin and saying sickness is sinful in and of itself, which is what you implied.

Edit: Drat, Ninja'd.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:04:20 PM by sheenj »

Offline sheenj

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 02:05:45 PM »
POPE- "Who am I to judge Gay people?"

BIBLE- "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 7:24

You're welcome, sir.  :)

Perhaps you could at least read the interview before making judgments based on the title alone.

Offline WPM

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2013, 02:06:09 PM »
When homosexual behavior is offensive

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 02:11:54 PM »
I think there's a difference between saying sickness is the result/consequence of sin and saying sickness is sinful in and of itself, which is what you implied.

Edit: Drat, Ninja'd.

*stealth mode*

Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 02:13:52 PM »
This is a question, not a statement:

Doesnt the RCC consider homosexuality a spritual deformation?.. In other words, is the idea  that it is okay to have same sex attraction as long as you don't act upon it contrary to Catholic teachings? 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:15:21 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 03:41:56 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2013, 03:45:58 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2013, 03:47:16 PM »
Back to the OP, I really think this pope is hyped up too much.

Oh yay he carried his bag onto a jet, he defied fancy papal traditions so he must be humble.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2013, 04:07:09 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin.

So is autism a sin? Or those born blind?
What about someone born with a predisposition to addiction?

No, those are not sins.

Yes, they are. That's basic Orthodox theology: the fallen state of the world, including death, disease and decay, "misses the mark" from God's original plan for the cosmos and is therefore sinful.

What do you think gives you the right to tell us Orthodox what we believe? We know better than you do.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2013, 04:09:31 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin.

So is autism a sin? Or those born blind?
What about someone born with a predisposition to addiction?

No, those are not sins.

Yes, they are. That's basic Orthodox theology: the fallen state of the world, including death, disease and decay, "misses the mark" from God's original plan for the cosmos and is therefore sinful.

What do you think gives you the right to tell us Orthodox what we believe? We know better than you do.

Like half of your posts on this forum are telling Orthodox people they aren't Orthodox over nothing. If you're going to be like that, the least you could do is know your own church's theology.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2013, 04:12:49 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2013, 04:15:08 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 04:15:28 PM by TheTrisagion »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2013, 04:19:21 PM »
I disagree with His Holiness. GBLT people are not personally guilty of their orientation. However homosexuality is a sin since it is transgression from the original plan of God. I agree though that Christians should be more kind to gays.
so does death, according to the same  account; so, are you gonna say that homosexuality is a sin in the same way as death is ?!

Kind of. The idea that homosexuality is not a sin seems to imply a bit superficial idea of sin.

So is autism a sin? Or those born blind?
What about someone born with a predisposition to addiction?

No, those are not sins.

Yes, they are. That's basic Orthodox theology: the fallen state of the world, including death, disease and decay, "misses the mark" from God's original plan for the cosmos and is therefore sinful.

What do you think gives you the right to tell us Orthodox what we believe? We know better than you do.

Like half of your posts on this forum are telling Orthodox people they aren't Orthodox over nothing. If you're going to be like that, the least you could do is know your own church's theology.

I do know it quite well in fact. Every Priest I know currently would agree with me, maybe except one. Yet I don't know any who would agree with you.

Offline William

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2013, 04:20:49 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

No, it's just interpreted differently. Or called ancestral sin.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

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Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?

You confess personal sins.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2013, 04:33:18 PM »
Since sin is not a legal transgression, the result of sin = sin.
I don't follow that logic. Legal transgressions have nothing to do with cause and effect relationships.

You and sheen keep saying disease is not sinful since you don't confess it. Sin is not something you always confess - you don't confess original sin, either.

Sin is more than just personal wrongs we are guilty of. That's how St. John of Shanghai could both say that Mary is sinful yet she is a stranger to any fall into sin.
I thought the Orthodox don't believe in original sin, so why would we confess it?  ???

No, it's just interpreted differently. Or called ancestral sin.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

Quote
Why does Scripture say if we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.  But now it sounds as if you are saying we don't need to confess ALL sins.  How do we know which ones to confess and which ones we don't have to?

You confess personal sins.

More properly: ancestral curse

What you suggest we believe is absolutely wrong. For example, babies who die before baptism are still given funerals and are recognized as being in God's kingdom. They inherit the fallen nature, the curse of the tendency to sin. But they don't have any sins and aren't guilty of anyone else's sins.

You are so wrong about us William, you should stop now an let us speak for ourselves instead of trying to speak on our behalf.

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Re: Pope says, "Who am I to judge Gay people".
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2013, 04:39:13 PM »
It's like Celebrity Deathmatch without celebrities. 
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