Transgender teen couple?

[Aedificare]

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

[JamesRottnek]

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

Which given how St. Paul implores everyone to be celibate, must mean that gays can be celibate if they happen to have that gift.

[Shiny]

Can it be argued that transgender surgery is a form of mutilation of the body?

[Kerdy]

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.

Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.

Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Genotypes, phenotypes, and the fact that one may not accurately reflect the other, all were Mendel's work.

Okay

[Kerdy]

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.

Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.

Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Stop the presses! I agree with Kerdy for once.

Is that what the earthquake was all about.   

[Kerdy]

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no?  

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop.  

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.

Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.

Yes, it is.  How scientific (forensics - look it up).

Didn't think you were a materialist.

"Science" doesn't explain much

It explains male and female.  Happens all the time when people find decomposed bodies.

[Kerdy]

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live. 

Indeed.

[Kerdy]

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

Which given how St. Paul implores everyone to be celibate, must mean that gays can be celibate if they happen to have that gift.

What gift?

[Kerdy]

Can it be argued that transgender surgery is a form of mutilation of the body?

It could.

[Maria]

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?

The former.

It used to happen much more often than you get to hear in the news. In the form of neonatal sex assignment surgery. Without as much as a say from the subject.

In college, we viewed a documentary about botched Jewish circumcisions, where doctors did a neonatal sex assignment surgery as a cover up which was requested by the parents under pressure from their rabbi. Apparently, such errors happen much more than people realize.

Really, what would have been easier and less expensive: (a) to repair the botched circumcision with a simple tissue graft, or (b) to do the neonatal sex assignment surgery with lots of hormonal therapy as the little boy matured into womanhood?

[Santagranddad]

Here there have been cases were an individual has 'changed' gender and then found they are not happy and wish to have a second round of surgery to return to their original gender. Some male to female post-op folks still have hands that would do a navvy proud, which tends to undermine their reassignment's credibility.

My take on this is very cautious. And not helped by the number of people who appear to want cosmetic surgeons to improve, alter or change their appearance. May some of this drive to change not be a symptom of profound psychological disorder and is going along with someone's deeply protested wish in this area necessarily good for them or society at large?

[Shanghaiski]

Can it be argued that transgender surgery is a form of mutilation of the body?

It is.

[Daedelus1138]

Here there have been cases were an individual has 'changed' gender and then found they are not happy and wish to have a second round of surgery to return to their original gender.

  That is almost always due to religious or ideological indoctrination.  Not all of it is Christian in origin, there are some Hindu cults that have manipulated transsexuals into renouncing their identity.

[dzheremi]

Sexologist John Money coined the term gender role in 1955.

It is true what they say: Money is the root of all evil.

[J Michael]

Sexologist John Money coined the term gender role in 1955.

It is true what they say: Money is the root of all evil.

Now, that was a *cheap* shot!
 

[LizaSymonenko]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not. 

I'm also a 6' tall, brunette, with brown eyes.

This is how God made me.  Wishing to be a blonde with blue eyes, while possible these days, would be wrong.  I am what I am.

People will always desire what they do not have.  Grass is always greener on the other side, until you get to the other side and realize it was all crab grass.

Be thankful for what you have.  Find a way to be at peace and make it work.

After all, you are only hear for so many years.  Focus on the important stuff.

[TheTrisagion]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not. 

I'm also a 6' tall, brunette, with brown eyes.

This is how God made me.  Wishing to be a blonde with blue eyes, while possible these days, would be wrong.  I am what I am.

People will always desire what they do not have.  Grass is always greener on the other side, until you get to the other side and realize it was all crab grass.

Be thankful for what you have.  Find a way to be at peace and make it work.

After all, you are only hear for so many years.  Focus on the important stuff.

I like brunettes much better. They always seem to be more intelligent  #stereotyping

[J Michael]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not. 

I'm also a 6' tall, brunette, with brown eyes.

This is how God made me.  Wishing to be a blonde with blue eyes, while possible these days, would be wrong.  I am what I am.

People will always desire what they do not have.  Grass is always greener on the other side, until you get to the other side and realize it was all crab grass.

Be thankful for what you have.  Find a way to be at peace and make it work.

After all, you are only hear for so many years.  Focus on the important stuff.

As usual, beautifully said.

[JamesR]

...like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.

Isn't that deification--what the entire Christian life is about? We try to act like gods and pretend we're Divine in hopes we'll one day be like God even though most of us will end up in the furnace?

[Alveus Lacuna]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

[TheTrisagion]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Well, we are pretty spectacular as a gender. 

[JamesR]

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.

[JamesR]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

[TheTrisagion]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

You have experience with this?

[LizaSymonenko]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Some days, yes.

Some days it's a spiritual thing....and other days it is just a physical strength thing.

[JamesR]

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

[J Michael]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

When you become a man, and have some first-hand experience under your belt about that, then you can comment with greater authority.

Men have crosses to bear that only we, as men, can bear.  Women have crosses to bear that only they, as women, can bear.  Same applies to the joys in life, of which there are many.  Men and women can help each other bear their crosses and share their joys.  It ain't all doom and gloom, Sunshine...unless you make it that way for yourself!

[J Michael]

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

Sounds like you need a good, long talk (or 2 or 3...) with a wise priest and/or a good counselor.  In the meantime, knock it off with the self-pity.  LOTS of people have it far worse than you do and complain far, far less--even to the point of rejoicing in and thanking God for everything they have and don't have--including their sufferings.


Oh, and you know that wish for non-existence...........?  Ooopsies....TOO LATE!  Deal with it!

[LizaSymonenko]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   

[Asteriktos]

And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

Let us attend:

And now look again, and see what will naturally follow it: the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

Far truer.

And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

True, he now.

And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.

Not all in a moment, he said.

He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

Certainly.

Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

Certainly.

-- Plato, The Republic

[J Michael]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   

  Liza, please..........now there's a

[LizaSymonenko]

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.

[LizaSymonenko]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   

  Liza, please..........now there's a

Cool!  Who is up for a fishing trip??  Those worms are perfect!!!  I've not gone yet this summer and am itching to go!

[Asteriktos]

I agree with a lot of what you say Liza, however...

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

If 95% of women didn't insist that guys initiate contact when interested then this wouldn't happen nearly as often. I would much prefer both men and women feeling comfortable approaching whoever they wanted to date and asking them out. Unfortunately this doesn't happen very often, so men are left trying to mind read women and figure out if they're interested or just being polite. One girl I asked out late last year was not only polite, but asked me how my weekend went/was going to go, asked me about vacations, about all sorts of things. She was a bank teller, so I expected her to be polite; but to ask me about all sorts of personal details every time I saw her? I figured I'd give it a shot. Nope, shot down, she already had a boyfriend.  

[J Michael]

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   

  Liza, please..........now there's a

Cool!  Who is up for a fishing trip??  Those worms are perfect!!!  I've not gone yet this summer and am itching to go!

Okay, but only if we can eat them.  The FISH, I mean!  (Trouble with fishing, around here anyway, is that you might be itching to go, but really *are* itching all over by the time you get back .)

[JamesR]

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.

But what does it matter if He is "with us" if He doesn't seem to be doing anything for the world? Is He with the millions of starving people, child prostitutes, cancer patients and other unfortunate people in the world? But God is just idly standing by while the world burns, "but don't worry, I'm with you!" as if that is supposed to offer us any sense of comfort. You know what I call people who follow us around but don't do anything? A liability. We waste all this time trying to please this invisible guy who's "with us" when we could be doing something about the world around us because He sure ain't doing anything about it. Personally, I find the fact that God claims to be "with us" while there is so much evil in the world as being more horrifying and heartless on His behalf than if He simply was not here at all. At least then, we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of suffering.

[LizaSymonenko]

Okay, but only if we can eat them.  The FISH, I mean!  (Trouble with fishing, around here anyway, is that you might be itching to go, but really *are* itching all over by the time you get back .)

Of course.  I'm not the kind to catch and release.  If you aren't going to eat it, why bother catching it?

Mosquitoes are one reason I haven't gone this year.  It's been a very wet summer and they're out in force!

[LizaSymonenko]

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.

But what does it matter if He is "with us" if He doesn't seem to be doing anything for the world? Is He with the millions of starving people, child prostitutes, cancer patients and other unfortunate people in the world? But God is just idly standing by while the world burns, "but don't worry, I'm with you!" as if that is supposed to offer us any sense of comfort. You know what I call people who follow us around but don't do anything? A liability. We waste all this time trying to please this invisible guy who's "with us" when we could be doing something about the world around us because He sure ain't doing anything about it. Personally, I find the fact that God claims to be "with us" while there is so much evil in the world as being more horrifying and heartless on His behalf than if He simply was not here at all. At least then, we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of suffering.

You shouldn't be trying so hard to "please" Him.  (Please top referring to God as "this guy".)  It should be natural for you to be nice, and loving, caring and helpful.

Why is that so difficult?

[Cyrillic]

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"

Whenever I talk with girls in a friendly manner my companions always assume that I'm interested in her. So, what you're saying is not exactly true. Well, at least not in my case.

[J Michael]

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.

But what does it matter if He is "with us" if He doesn't seem to be doing anything for the world? Is He with the millions of starving people, child prostitutes, cancer patients and other unfortunate people in the world? But God is just idly standing by while the world burns, "but don't worry, I'm with you!" as if that is supposed to offer us any sense of comfort. You know what I call people who follow us around but don't do anything? A liability. We waste all this time trying to please this invisible guy who's "with us" when we could be doing something about the world around us because He sure ain't doing anything about it. Personally, I find the fact that God claims to be "with us" while there is so much evil in the world as being more horrifying and heartless on His behalf than if He simply was not here at all. At least then, we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of suffering.

You shouldn't be trying so hard to "please" Him.  (Please top referring to God as "this guy".)  It should be natural for you to be nice, and loving, caring and helpful.

Why is that so difficult?

Teenage 'angst' coupled with a need for a good talk with a wise priest or other wise person.

[JamesR]

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

[Cyrillic]

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself.

And that is how you rise to greatness.

[J Michael]

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

Isn't there already a whole thread devoted to this??

[LizaSymonenko]

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

It's called free will.

People will always find something to complain about.

[J Michael]

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

It's called free will.

People will always find something to complain about.

Teenagers are especially good at it.

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