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Author Topic: Transgender teen couple?  (Read 12301 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2013, 06:10:43 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.
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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2013, 06:14:58 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2013, 06:24:04 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop. 

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.
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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2013, 07:03:03 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
Different discussion and "fact" is debatable.
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« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2013, 07:03:22 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no?  

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop.  

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.

Yes, it is.  How scientific (forensics - look it up - you can alter your body, you can't alter your DNA).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 07:13:36 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2013, 07:18:10 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
Different discussion and "fact" is debatable.

All within the scope of this discussion. You just want to talk about what horrible sexual deviants those trannies are, and I don't.
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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2013, 07:21:05 AM »

Is gender purely physical?

Yes, it is.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 07:21:15 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2013, 08:15:29 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
Different discussion and "fact" is debatable.

All within the scope of this discussion. You just want to talk about what horrible sexual deviants those trannies are, and I don't.
If people are talking about the safety glass in vehicles and you talk about the safety of tires, both are on the vehicle, both deal with safety, but they have nothing to do with one another.  I'm talking glass, you're trying to force tires into the discussion. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 08:17:15 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2013, 08:18:31 AM »

Only here the wonder is 'why on earth would those kids want to go through surgery' and I provided a reason. Are we sure they fall under that category? No. Are we sure they don't? No. The discussion hasn't drifted yet. You may keep trying.
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« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2013, 08:20:04 AM »

Only here the wonder is 'why on earth would those kids want to go through surgery' and I provided a reason. Are we sure they fall under that category? No. Are we sure they don't? No. The discussion hasn't drifted yet. You may keep trying.
That isn't the question I was wondering about, and to which you replied, but okay.
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« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2013, 08:43:36 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop. 

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.
Ahh, those pesky X & Y chromosomes.  So reductionist.
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« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2013, 08:48:32 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
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« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2013, 08:58:21 AM »

Quote
Sexologist John Money coined the term gender role in 1955.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2013, 09:02:31 AM »

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink

By getting a degree in biology, then pursuing postgraduate studies in genetics, specialising in the defining characteristics of sex and their correlative functions.

If you mean the Dr Ruth kind of -ologist, not sure I can help you there. Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2013, 09:20:21 AM »

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink

By getting a degree in biology, then pursuing postgraduate studies in genetics, specialising in the defining characteristics of sex and their correlative functions.

If you mean the Dr Ruth kind of -ologist, not sure I can help you there. Tongue
I note that they have made many great contributions to the world such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmograph
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« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2013, 09:21:50 AM »

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink

By getting a degree in biology, then pursuing postgraduate studies in genetics, specialising in the defining characteristics of sex and their correlative functions.

If you mean the Dr Ruth kind of -ologist, not sure I can help you there. Tongue
I note that they have made many great contributions to the world such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmograph

Too many kids who thought it sounded like an interesting job. Anything to keep them busy enough not to play with themselves.
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« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2013, 09:43:05 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

" the state of being male or female"

It's origins go back to the 14th century identifying masculine and feminine.

DNA can determine whether a person was male or female who has long since died. 
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« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2013, 09:49:46 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
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« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2013, 09:51:01 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.
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« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2013, 09:55:33 AM »

Down on the farm after you had taken the ram to tup the ewes and put the bull to a cow a fee times there wasn't much that was not clear....
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« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2013, 09:57:27 AM »

Does God make mistakes?
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« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2013, 09:59:15 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Genotypes, phenotypes, and the fact that one may not accurately reflect the other, all were Mendel's work. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2013, 09:59:42 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?
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« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2013, 10:00:09 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Stop the presses! I agree with Kerdy for once.
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« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2013, 10:08:17 AM »

Stop the presses! I agree with Kerdy for once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EZn0FUHdZs
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« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2013, 10:21:26 AM »



I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.



I realize I'm not Achronos, but nonetheless.  In the case of the trans woman (the male-to-female transgendered person), she probably had a chondrolaryngoplasty, which is a surgical operation where the surgeon shaves down the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam's apple (a procedure occasionally performed on cis gendered people for a variety of reasons), via an incision in the throat.  The trans man (the female-to-male transgendered person) likely had an implant.  

Thanks James.
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« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2013, 10:41:26 AM »



I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.



I realize I'm not Achronos, but nonetheless.  In the case of the trans woman (the male-to-female transgendered person), she probably had a chondrolaryngoplasty, which is a surgical operation where the surgeon shaves down the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam's apple (a procedure occasionally performed on cis gendered people for a variety of reasons), via an incision in the throat.  The trans man (the female-to-male transgendered person) likely had an implant.  

Thanks James.

No problem, I'm always glad to be of use.
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« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2013, 10:41:59 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no?  

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop.  

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.

Yes, it is.  How scientific (forensics - look it up).
Didn't think you were a materialist.

"Science" doesn't explain much
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« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2013, 10:45:59 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?
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« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2013, 10:48:16 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.
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« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2013, 10:54:33 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2013, 11:02:01 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes

Tribal societies often had specific roles for transgendered people.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php
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« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2013, 11:02:27 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.
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« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2013, 11:09:23 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.
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« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2013, 11:15:26 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes

Tribal societies often had specific roles for transgendered people.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php
I read a lot of speculation and junk history there, but not so much real evidence. She even attempts to equate the "Bride of Christ" to "gender-wedding imagery".  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2013, 11:17:09 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes

Tribal societies often had specific roles for transgendered people.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php
I read a lot of speculation and junk history there, but not so much real evidence. She even attempts to equate the "Bride of Christ" to "gender-wedding imagery".  Roll Eyes

The Indian Hijra are well documented. Quinault may have a few things to tell us about Two-Spirits as well.

EDIT: This better?

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Gender_role.html
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« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2013, 11:37:29 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.
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« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2013, 12:04:59 PM »

I don't think we should look for people who are just trying to go about their lives and make fun of them and degrade them.  That is just wrong.  But what about clowns?  They get paid good money for us to make fun of.  It is part of the human condition to make fun of others doing stupid things.  This is a good educational tool.  Not, these kids, posing for pictures, allowing themselves to be made into media-circus-bait, how are they any different than a clown? 

I don't make fun of people in real life.  You willing get put on TV or in a magazine, you're open game.
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« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2013, 12:49:36 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)
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« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2013, 12:54:10 PM »

I don't think we should look for people who are just trying to go about their lives and make fun of them and degrade them.  That is just wrong.  But what about clowns?  They get paid good money for us to make fun of.  It is part of the human condition to make fun of others doing stupid things.  This is a good educational tool.  Not, these kids, posing for pictures, allowing themselves to be made into media-circus-bait, how are they any different than a clown? 

I don't make fun of people in real life.  You willing get put on TV or in a magazine, you're open game.
I don't know if it is the right attitude or not, but I'm with vamrat on this one.  I have known several people who have gotten sex changes and while I don't agree with it, I have tried to never demean or look down on them because it is a struggle I've never had to deal with. Once you take your "struggle" public, it just seems disingenuous at that point and I don't feel too bad about cracking a few jokes.
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« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2013, 01:40:28 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?



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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2013, 02:10:27 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.
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« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.
Ok, in this context, I understand all your comments much better.  I 100% agree with you.
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« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2013, 02:18:58 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.
Ok, in this context, I understand all your comments much better.  I 100% agree with you.

+1

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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2013, 02:19:55 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.

Thanks for clarifying!  We agree 100%.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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