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Author Topic: Transgender teen couple?  (Read 11800 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 28, 2013, 02:06:57 PM »

This weirds me out because the whole uncanny valley thing. Supposedly there was a donation for 40K for the vaginoplasty, which gives me chills thinking about it...



Yeah the one on the left born a woman and the one on the right a man



Apparently their parents are supportive, or atleast her mom is.

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 02:11:42 PM »

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

I take it you're not familiar with the majority of kickstarter things then?  Cool
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 02:23:30 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 02:24:59 PM »

The person on the left is a better looking "dude" than me, by far.

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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 02:25:56 PM »

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

Evidently someone who has $40,000 to spare and who sympathizes with the cause.  That isn't apparent to you?
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 03:31:19 PM »

You always hear about how people are so happy now that they had that thing cut off, but you never hear about the cruel side effects. Stories like this are all about marketing.
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 05:45:37 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

I mean how exactly do you urinate afterwards?

Actually it's probably best no knowing.
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 09:08:44 PM »

I wish them all the best and hope they find all happiness in life.

-c
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 09:27:39 PM »

Was one of them Justin Bieber with dark hair?
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 09:44:03 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 09:51:05 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

I mean how exactly do you urinate afterwards?

Actually it's probably best no knowing.

They reroute the urniary tract during the surgery.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2013, 10:00:06 PM »

I realize that after the Fall, there were many physical and psychological problems that happened to us.  However, it seems that this type of operation is a gross violation of God's laws.  If a person was born a man or a woman, that won't change in God's eyes no matter what the doctor's cut off or hormone therapy they go through.  I can't see this type of operation as something our Hierarchs would approve of.
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.

 + 1.
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 10:26:04 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.

 + 1.

+2
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 10:30:01 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 10:46:41 PM »

I wish them all the best and hope they find all happiness in life.

-c
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 10:50:13 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 11:26:07 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  

I personally don't believe we are obligated to to ensure that every person we come into contact with is aware of their sins and shortcomings.  If we were obligated, I'm afraid our lives would be consumed with conversations revolving around the sins of others.  However, I don't think we should hide what we believe either.  My work colleagues and friends all know I am an Orthodox Christian.  They generally know, even without asking, when I'm likely to disapprove of something.  Sometimes friends are curious as to my beliefs on any number of issues and when asked, I share freely.  However, I always try to remind myself to be prudent.  Some people believe that they are obligated to correct others always and so even if it is imprudent and downright harmful, they still do it with the mistaken belief that if the person persists after such correction, their own hands are clean.  Sometimes acting imprudently brings down all sorts of condemnation upon us.  I personally believe that we should treat every person with dignity and respect, with compassion and love.  If and when the time is right to say something, God usually makes it know.  That's my experience, at least.   Of course I usually act imprudently, but the above written is the goal at least. 
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2013, 11:38:23 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.

 + 1.

+2
+3
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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2013, 11:41:24 PM »

But is being compassionate and charitable to a repentant or struggling sinner really the same as being compassionate to an unrepentant degenerate?
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2013, 11:42:38 PM »

Since the latter posts are discussing something worthwhile, I hesitate to throw this opinion out there.  But my first reaction was not to "stare and point at the freaks".  Actually, I'm rather surprised by the skill of the physicians involved.  I would never have guessed that the "guy' was really a girl and the "girl" a guy.  The latter looks very much like a female acquaintance I knew in college, especially in the first photo.  In the second photo, I can sorta tell that the "guy" was a girl, but only because I knew that as I saw it--still couldn't tell that the "girl" was originally a guy.      
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

Evidently someone who has $40,000 to spare and who sympathizes with the cause.  That isn't apparent to you?
I should probably work on making my humor a little more clear. I'm afraid I can lace my OP with too many vulgarities.

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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

Aren't you the same people that go off on JamesR because he is a teenager and doesn't know anything?

And you are going to defend teens getting a vaginoplasty?

Ya'll are hypocrites.
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how they operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.
Poignant as always Ionnis, thank you for this. Yes what a terrible tragedy, and I'm not just talking about the suicide.
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

Really the counter argument to Ionnis, and I think Kerdy will agree with me, is that compassion should never be compromised with evil.

Note I am not talking about transgender here.
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 06:21:05 AM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

It used to happen much more often than you get to hear in the news. In the form of neonatal sex assignment surgery. Without as much as a say from the subject.
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 06:41:27 AM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how they operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.
Poignant as always Ionnis, thank you for this. Yes what a terrible tragedy, and I'm not just talking about the suicide.
It is a tragedy when a person takes their life.  It is doubly tragic when it is fueled by others constant ridicule and hateful actions.  This happens in all sorts of areas of life.  Nerdy, fat, speaking accent, etc.  But what really makes it tragic is either these people think there is no one who will love them or there really isn’t anyone they can find who loves them.  Many times, there are underlying emotional or mental issues which have gone undiagnosed.  All around, suicide is no fun for anyone.
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 09:30:06 PM »

Aren't you the same people that go off on JamesR because he is a teenager and doesn't know anything?

And you are going to defend teens getting a vaginoplasty?

Ya'll are hypocrites.

Who is defending a teenager getting a vaginoplasty?  Are you joking?  I'm usually pretty good about knowing when people are joking, especially you, but lately I've found it difficult. 

Quote
Really the counter argument to Ionnis, and I think Kerdy will agree with me, is that compassion should never be compromised with evil.

Note I am not talking about transgender here.

Who has said compassion should be compromised with evil?

I'm so lost...
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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 09:43:42 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 09:45:31 PM »

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 

Yeah.  So be quiet and repent.  Leave this stuff to us holy people.  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 10:32:31 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
I have noticed some people are so compassionate they do nothing at all.
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2013, 10:33:28 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
I have noticed some people are so compassionate they do nothing at all.

So praying is doing nothing?

Maybe I need some stones instead....
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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 11:05:04 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  

When I was at Project Mexico, they told us, "Give a gift to a friend," that is, don't just be a rich American handing out things left and right to people--make a relationship first so that it will mean something and the person receiving won't be hurt. I think the same can apply to advice. If you don't have an actual relationship with the person--something beyond an acquaintance--then your advice, no matter how well-intentioned, lacks context. (Albeit, the Internet has turned this thing upside down, but I think there's still truth in dealing with people that way.) If someone doesn't ask what you think, the chances are they don't care, and nothing you say will have any bearing and will be more likely just to harden the person's heart.
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« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 11:07:14 PM »

But is being compassionate and charitable to a repentant or struggling sinner really the same as being compassionate to an unrepentant degenerate?

What is compassion?

We are all both struggling and degenerate. At least I am.
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« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 11:08:53 PM »

Aren't you the same people that go off on JamesR because he is a teenager and doesn't know anything?

And you are going to defend teens getting a vaginoplasty?

Ya'll are hypocrites.

For the record, I don'd defend them at all. They are deluded.
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« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2013, 11:15:10 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  

When I was at Project Mexico, they told us, "Give a gift to a friend," that is, don't just be a rich American handing out things left and right to people--make a relationship first so that it will mean something and the person receiving won't be hurt. I think the same can apply to advice. If you don't have an actual relationship with the person--something beyond an acquaintance--then your advice, no matter how well-intentioned, lacks context. (Albeit, the Internet has turned this thing upside down, but I think there's still truth in dealing with people that way.) If someone doesn't ask what you think, the chances are they don't care, and nothing you say will have any bearing and will be more likely just to harden the person's heart.

+324   

Wink
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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2013, 11:23:37 PM »

This weirds me out because the whole uncanny valley thing. Supposedly there was a donation for 40K for the vaginoplasty, which gives me chills thinking about it...



Yeah the one on the left born a woman and the one on the right a man



Apparently their parents are supportive, or atleast her mom is.

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.

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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2013, 11:54:26 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
I have noticed some people are so compassionate they do nothing at all.

So praying is doing nothing?

Maybe I need some stones instead....
Stones, I don't know about that but I do know you need to read what I say instead of putting a spin on it.
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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2013, 01:54:21 AM »

This weirds me out because the whole uncanny valley thing. Supposedly there was a donation for 40K for the vaginoplasty, which gives me chills thinking about it...



Yeah the one on the left born a woman and the one on the right a man



Apparently their parents are supportive, or atleast her mom is.

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.



I realize I'm not Achronos, but nonetheless.  In the case of the trans woman (the male-to-female transgendered person), she probably had a chondrolaryngoplasty, which is a surgical operation where the surgeon shaves down the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam's apple (a procedure occasionally performed on cis gendered people for a variety of reasons), via an incision in the throat.  The trans man (the female-to-male transgendered person) likely had an implant.  
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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2013, 02:08:07 AM »

And just like that I clutch my throat instinctively.
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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2013, 05:13:16 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop. 

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.
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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2013, 05:35:30 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.
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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2013, 05:42:25 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

Nominalists would say that yes, you are now a Martian.
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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2013, 06:00:56 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.
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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2013, 06:06:03 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.
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