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Author Topic: Transgender teen couple?  (Read 11112 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 28, 2013, 02:06:57 PM »

This weirds me out because the whole uncanny valley thing. Supposedly there was a donation for 40K for the vaginoplasty, which gives me chills thinking about it...



Yeah the one on the left born a woman and the one on the right a man



Apparently their parents are supportive, or atleast her mom is.

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 02:11:42 PM »

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

I take it you're not familiar with the majority of kickstarter things then?  Cool
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 02:23:30 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 02:24:59 PM »

The person on the left is a better looking "dude" than me, by far.

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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 02:25:56 PM »

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

Evidently someone who has $40,000 to spare and who sympathizes with the cause.  That isn't apparent to you?
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 03:31:19 PM »

You always hear about how people are so happy now that they had that thing cut off, but you never hear about the cruel side effects. Stories like this are all about marketing.
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 05:45:37 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

I mean how exactly do you urinate afterwards?

Actually it's probably best no knowing.
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 09:08:44 PM »

I wish them all the best and hope they find all happiness in life.

-c
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 09:27:39 PM »

Was one of them Justin Bieber with dark hair?
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 09:44:03 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 09:51:05 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

I mean how exactly do you urinate afterwards?

Actually it's probably best no knowing.

They reroute the urniary tract during the surgery.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2013, 10:00:06 PM »

I realize that after the Fall, there were many physical and psychological problems that happened to us.  However, it seems that this type of operation is a gross violation of God's laws.  If a person was born a man or a woman, that won't change in God's eyes no matter what the doctor's cut off or hormone therapy they go through.  I can't see this type of operation as something our Hierarchs would approve of.
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.

 + 1.
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 10:26:04 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.

 + 1.

+2
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 10:30:01 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 10:46:41 PM »

I wish them all the best and hope they find all happiness in life.

-c
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 10:50:13 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 11:26:07 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  

I personally don't believe we are obligated to to ensure that every person we come into contact with is aware of their sins and shortcomings.  If we were obligated, I'm afraid our lives would be consumed with conversations revolving around the sins of others.  However, I don't think we should hide what we believe either.  My work colleagues and friends all know I am an Orthodox Christian.  They generally know, even without asking, when I'm likely to disapprove of something.  Sometimes friends are curious as to my beliefs on any number of issues and when asked, I share freely.  However, I always try to remind myself to be prudent.  Some people believe that they are obligated to correct others always and so even if it is imprudent and downright harmful, they still do it with the mistaken belief that if the person persists after such correction, their own hands are clean.  Sometimes acting imprudently brings down all sorts of condemnation upon us.  I personally believe that we should treat every person with dignity and respect, with compassion and love.  If and when the time is right to say something, God usually makes it know.  That's my experience, at least.   Of course I usually act imprudently, but the above written is the goal at least. 
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2013, 11:38:23 PM »

All other things aside (because I don't really believe a debate about the -rightness- or not is needed here)

What was the point in posting this other than to 'stare and point at the freaks'?

I am not saying we should accept such things as normal, but we should also have mercy and compassion.  And in my mind that means not poking fun of people, misguided, lost, or in sin.

Pray for them, yes. Poke fun no.

 + 1.

+2
+3
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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2013, 11:41:24 PM »

But is being compassionate and charitable to a repentant or struggling sinner really the same as being compassionate to an unrepentant degenerate?
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2013, 11:42:38 PM »

Since the latter posts are discussing something worthwhile, I hesitate to throw this opinion out there.  But my first reaction was not to "stare and point at the freaks".  Actually, I'm rather surprised by the skill of the physicians involved.  I would never have guessed that the "guy' was really a girl and the "girl" a guy.  The latter looks very much like a female acquaintance I knew in college, especially in the first photo.  In the second photo, I can sorta tell that the "guy" was a girl, but only because I knew that as I saw it--still couldn't tell that the "girl" was originally a guy.      
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

Evidently someone who has $40,000 to spare and who sympathizes with the cause.  That isn't apparent to you?
I should probably work on making my humor a little more clear. I'm afraid I can lace my OP with too many vulgarities.

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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

Aren't you the same people that go off on JamesR because he is a teenager and doesn't know anything?

And you are going to defend teens getting a vaginoplasty?

Ya'll are hypocrites.
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how they operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.
Poignant as always Ionnis, thank you for this. Yes what a terrible tragedy, and I'm not just talking about the suicide.
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 12:38:26 AM »

Really the counter argument to Ionnis, and I think Kerdy will agree with me, is that compassion should never be compromised with evil.

Note I am not talking about transgender here.
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 06:21:05 AM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

It used to happen much more often than you get to hear in the news. In the form of neonatal sex assignment surgery. Without as much as a say from the subject.
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 06:41:27 AM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how they operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.
Poignant as always Ionnis, thank you for this. Yes what a terrible tragedy, and I'm not just talking about the suicide.
It is a tragedy when a person takes their life.  It is doubly tragic when it is fueled by others constant ridicule and hateful actions.  This happens in all sorts of areas of life.  Nerdy, fat, speaking accent, etc.  But what really makes it tragic is either these people think there is no one who will love them or there really isn’t anyone they can find who loves them.  Many times, there are underlying emotional or mental issues which have gone undiagnosed.  All around, suicide is no fun for anyone.
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 09:30:06 PM »

Aren't you the same people that go off on JamesR because he is a teenager and doesn't know anything?

And you are going to defend teens getting a vaginoplasty?

Ya'll are hypocrites.

Who is defending a teenager getting a vaginoplasty?  Are you joking?  I'm usually pretty good about knowing when people are joking, especially you, but lately I've found it difficult. 

Quote
Really the counter argument to Ionnis, and I think Kerdy will agree with me, is that compassion should never be compromised with evil.

Note I am not talking about transgender here.

Who has said compassion should be compromised with evil?

I'm so lost...
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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 09:43:42 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 09:45:31 PM »

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 

Yeah.  So be quiet and repent.  Leave this stuff to us holy people.  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 10:32:31 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
I have noticed some people are so compassionate they do nothing at all.
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2013, 10:33:28 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
I have noticed some people are so compassionate they do nothing at all.

So praying is doing nothing?

Maybe I need some stones instead....
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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 11:05:04 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  

When I was at Project Mexico, they told us, "Give a gift to a friend," that is, don't just be a rich American handing out things left and right to people--make a relationship first so that it will mean something and the person receiving won't be hurt. I think the same can apply to advice. If you don't have an actual relationship with the person--something beyond an acquaintance--then your advice, no matter how well-intentioned, lacks context. (Albeit, the Internet has turned this thing upside down, but I think there's still truth in dealing with people that way.) If someone doesn't ask what you think, the chances are they don't care, and nothing you say will have any bearing and will be more likely just to harden the person's heart.
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« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 11:07:14 PM »

But is being compassionate and charitable to a repentant or struggling sinner really the same as being compassionate to an unrepentant degenerate?

What is compassion?

We are all both struggling and degenerate. At least I am.
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« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 11:08:53 PM »

Aren't you the same people that go off on JamesR because he is a teenager and doesn't know anything?

And you are going to defend teens getting a vaginoplasty?

Ya'll are hypocrites.

For the record, I don'd defend them at all. They are deluded.
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« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2013, 11:15:10 PM »

Some believe that as followers of Christ we should objectify, belittle, and persecute sinners, but only those sinners who struggle with sins that deviate too far from the "normal" and "acceptable" ones.  To refuse to do so means one is a god-hating liberal who not only condones, but actively promotes, all manner of sexual immorality and evil.  While people who hold this mentality would disagree with my assessment of their view, and perhaps rightfully so in some cases, as i'm making a generalization, for all intents and purposes, it is in fact how many operate.  Such a mentality pervades certain corners of the Church.  However, many people are too scared to say anything lest they be called unorthodox or "liberal."  And well, a lot of people dislike confrontation so when they hear or see this mentality being expressed in Church, amongst friends and family, on message boards, etc. they remain silent.  Until recently, I've been quite passive as I am a generally quiet and timid person, but no more.  A couple months back a local child killed himself after being taunted for the preceding 8 months.  Almost everyone responsible for his care knew what was happening but no one intervened because to do so would have required confrontation and well, for some of the people charged with his care, it would have been politically inexpedient to intervene and as one person put it, "they couldn't promote such a lifestyle."  If we cannot see Christ in the least of these, which is what happens anytime we objectify any person(s), then we are terribly, terribly lost and the love of God is not in us.

 I completely agree with you.  I haven't figured out yet how to show love without them thinking I tacitly approve of their choices.  How can I love them and share my faith?  I personally know a man who is setting up an appointment for a sex change (he's already gone through the counseling); I am very friendly with him when I see him.  But are we letting them down if we just keep silent about their choices and 'mind our own business?  

When I was at Project Mexico, they told us, "Give a gift to a friend," that is, don't just be a rich American handing out things left and right to people--make a relationship first so that it will mean something and the person receiving won't be hurt. I think the same can apply to advice. If you don't have an actual relationship with the person--something beyond an acquaintance--then your advice, no matter how well-intentioned, lacks context. (Albeit, the Internet has turned this thing upside down, but I think there's still truth in dealing with people that way.) If someone doesn't ask what you think, the chances are they don't care, and nothing you say will have any bearing and will be more likely just to harden the person's heart.

+324   

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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2013, 11:23:37 PM »

This weirds me out because the whole uncanny valley thing. Supposedly there was a donation for 40K for the vaginoplasty, which gives me chills thinking about it...



Yeah the one on the left born a woman and the one on the right a man



Apparently their parents are supportive, or atleast her mom is.

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.

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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2013, 11:54:26 PM »

I think perhaps, the confusion here...is rather than just being compassionate and praying for people who might be lost, as humans we all leap to the 'oooh sin, i MUST point it out, I MUST refute it'

Compassion can be greater if we allow God to determine the nature and severity of 'other folks sins' and allow Him to work in their lives. Perhaps even through a compassionate person, who although they know there is sin involved, chooses not to act the judgmental role.

I have way more than enough trouble keeping track of and repenting of my own darn sins, to be worried about others'

but perhaps I am just more sinful then some. Wink
 
I have noticed some people are so compassionate they do nothing at all.

So praying is doing nothing?

Maybe I need some stones instead....
Stones, I don't know about that but I do know you need to read what I say instead of putting a spin on it.
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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2013, 01:54:21 AM »

This weirds me out because the whole uncanny valley thing. Supposedly there was a donation for 40K for the vaginoplasty, which gives me chills thinking about it...



Yeah the one on the left born a woman and the one on the right a man



Apparently their parents are supportive, or atleast her mom is.

But I don't know this is just insane to me. Who would give 40K for surgery like that?

I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.



I realize I'm not Achronos, but nonetheless.  In the case of the trans woman (the male-to-female transgendered person), she probably had a chondrolaryngoplasty, which is a surgical operation where the surgeon shaves down the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam's apple (a procedure occasionally performed on cis gendered people for a variety of reasons), via an incision in the throat.  The trans man (the female-to-male transgendered person) likely had an implant.  
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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2013, 02:08:07 AM »

And just like that I clutch my throat instinctively.
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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2013, 05:13:16 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop. 

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.
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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2013, 05:35:30 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.
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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2013, 05:42:25 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

Nominalists would say that yes, you are now a Martian.
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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2013, 06:00:56 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.
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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2013, 06:06:03 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.
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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2013, 06:10:43 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.
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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2013, 06:14:58 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2013, 06:24:04 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop. 

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.
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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2013, 07:03:03 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
Different discussion and "fact" is debatable.
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« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2013, 07:03:22 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no?  

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop.  

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.

Yes, it is.  How scientific (forensics - look it up - you can alter your body, you can't alter your DNA).
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« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2013, 07:18:10 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
Different discussion and "fact" is debatable.

All within the scope of this discussion. You just want to talk about what horrible sexual deviants those trannies are, and I don't.
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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2013, 07:21:05 AM »

Is gender purely physical?

Yes, it is.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 07:21:15 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2013, 08:15:29 AM »

One in 5000 live births is of ambiguous sex that needs assignment, often surgical. That would mean over 60,000 people in the US alone. Then, assignment is not always correct; surgery more commonly made such individuals female, because cutting stuff is easier than enlarging, but even if one in 10 cases turned out wrong (because the hormones had a different idea than the surgeons), you still have a few thousand people who are literally in the wrong bodies. I see no reason at all not to fix the mistake.

'What you are' is not always as easy to determine, even on the level that boring normal us take for granted.

Different topic.  Worthy of discussion, but different topic.

Different?

They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.

No, not different at all.

Sure it is.  People do this without anything you posted on.  Different.

That doesn't change the fact that there's plenty of legitimate reason to do it. And we'll never find out how 'legitimate' those kids' reasons are. Not that it's any of our business.
Different discussion and "fact" is debatable.

All within the scope of this discussion. You just want to talk about what horrible sexual deviants those trannies are, and I don't.
If people are talking about the safety glass in vehicles and you talk about the safety of tires, both are on the vehicle, both deal with safety, but they have nothing to do with one another.  I'm talking glass, you're trying to force tires into the discussion. 
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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2013, 08:18:31 AM »

Only here the wonder is 'why on earth would those kids want to go through surgery' and I provided a reason. Are we sure they fall under that category? No. Are we sure they don't? No. The discussion hasn't drifted yet. You may keep trying.
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« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2013, 08:20:04 AM »

Only here the wonder is 'why on earth would those kids want to go through surgery' and I provided a reason. Are we sure they fall under that category? No. Are we sure they don't? No. The discussion hasn't drifted yet. You may keep trying.
That isn't the question I was wondering about, and to which you replied, but okay.
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« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2013, 08:43:36 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no? 

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop. 

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.
Ahh, those pesky X & Y chromosomes.  So reductionist.
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« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2013, 08:48:32 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
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« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2013, 08:58:21 AM »

Quote
Sexologist John Money coined the term gender role in 1955.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2013, 09:02:31 AM »

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink

By getting a degree in biology, then pursuing postgraduate studies in genetics, specialising in the defining characteristics of sex and their correlative functions.

If you mean the Dr Ruth kind of -ologist, not sure I can help you there. Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2013, 09:20:21 AM »

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink

By getting a degree in biology, then pursuing postgraduate studies in genetics, specialising in the defining characteristics of sex and their correlative functions.

If you mean the Dr Ruth kind of -ologist, not sure I can help you there. Tongue
I note that they have made many great contributions to the world such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmograph
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« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2013, 09:21:50 AM »

How does one become a sexologist exactly? This sounds to be an interesting job.  Wink

By getting a degree in biology, then pursuing postgraduate studies in genetics, specialising in the defining characteristics of sex and their correlative functions.

If you mean the Dr Ruth kind of -ologist, not sure I can help you there. Tongue
I note that they have made many great contributions to the world such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmograph

Too many kids who thought it sounded like an interesting job. Anything to keep them busy enough not to play with themselves.
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« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2013, 09:43:05 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

" the state of being male or female"

It's origins go back to the 14th century identifying masculine and feminine.

DNA can determine whether a person was male or female who has long since died. 
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« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2013, 09:49:46 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
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« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2013, 09:51:01 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.
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« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2013, 09:55:33 AM »

Down on the farm after you had taken the ram to tup the ewes and put the bull to a cow a fee times there wasn't much that was not clear....
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« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2013, 09:57:27 AM »

Does God make mistakes?
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« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2013, 09:59:15 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Genotypes, phenotypes, and the fact that one may not accurately reflect the other, all were Mendel's work. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2013, 09:59:42 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?
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« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2013, 10:00:09 AM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Stop the presses! I agree with Kerdy for once.
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« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2013, 10:08:17 AM »

Stop the presses! I agree with Kerdy for once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EZn0FUHdZs
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« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2013, 10:21:26 AM »



I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.



I realize I'm not Achronos, but nonetheless.  In the case of the trans woman (the male-to-female transgendered person), she probably had a chondrolaryngoplasty, which is a surgical operation where the surgeon shaves down the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam's apple (a procedure occasionally performed on cis gendered people for a variety of reasons), via an incision in the throat.  The trans man (the female-to-male transgendered person) likely had an implant.  

Thanks James.
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« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2013, 10:41:26 AM »



I have two questions about this Achronos. There does not appear to be a link for finding out myself. Why does the female turned male have an adam's apple? Why does the male turned female appear not to have an adam's apple? All I am saying is that it does not correspond to my expectations.



I realize I'm not Achronos, but nonetheless.  In the case of the trans woman (the male-to-female transgendered person), she probably had a chondrolaryngoplasty, which is a surgical operation where the surgeon shaves down the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam's apple (a procedure occasionally performed on cis gendered people for a variety of reasons), via an incision in the throat.  The trans man (the female-to-male transgendered person) likely had an implant.  

Thanks James.

No problem, I'm always glad to be of use.
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« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2013, 10:41:59 AM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no?  

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop.  

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.

Yes, it is.  How scientific (forensics - look it up).
Didn't think you were a materialist.

"Science" doesn't explain much
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« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2013, 10:45:59 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?
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« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2013, 10:48:16 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.
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« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2013, 10:54:33 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2013, 11:02:01 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes

Tribal societies often had specific roles for transgendered people.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php
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« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2013, 11:02:27 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.
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« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2013, 11:09:23 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.
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« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2013, 11:15:26 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes

Tribal societies often had specific roles for transgendered people.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php
I read a lot of speculation and junk history there, but not so much real evidence. She even attempts to equate the "Bride of Christ" to "gender-wedding imagery".  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2013, 11:17:09 AM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes

Tribal societies often had specific roles for transgendered people.

http://www.bilerico.com/2008/02/transgender_history_trans_expression_in.php
I read a lot of speculation and junk history there, but not so much real evidence. She even attempts to equate the "Bride of Christ" to "gender-wedding imagery".  Roll Eyes

The Indian Hijra are well documented. Quinault may have a few things to tell us about Two-Spirits as well.

EDIT: This better?

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Gender_role.html
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« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2013, 11:37:29 AM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.
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« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2013, 12:04:59 PM »

I don't think we should look for people who are just trying to go about their lives and make fun of them and degrade them.  That is just wrong.  But what about clowns?  They get paid good money for us to make fun of.  It is part of the human condition to make fun of others doing stupid things.  This is a good educational tool.  Not, these kids, posing for pictures, allowing themselves to be made into media-circus-bait, how are they any different than a clown? 

I don't make fun of people in real life.  You willing get put on TV or in a magazine, you're open game.
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« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2013, 12:49:36 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)
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« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2013, 12:54:10 PM »

I don't think we should look for people who are just trying to go about their lives and make fun of them and degrade them.  That is just wrong.  But what about clowns?  They get paid good money for us to make fun of.  It is part of the human condition to make fun of others doing stupid things.  This is a good educational tool.  Not, these kids, posing for pictures, allowing themselves to be made into media-circus-bait, how are they any different than a clown? 

I don't make fun of people in real life.  You willing get put on TV or in a magazine, you're open game.
I don't know if it is the right attitude or not, but I'm with vamrat on this one.  I have known several people who have gotten sex changes and while I don't agree with it, I have tried to never demean or look down on them because it is a struggle I've never had to deal with. Once you take your "struggle" public, it just seems disingenuous at that point and I don't feel too bad about cracking a few jokes.
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« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2013, 01:40:28 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?



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« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2013, 02:10:27 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.
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« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.
Ok, in this context, I understand all your comments much better.  I 100% agree with you.
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« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2013, 02:18:58 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.
Ok, in this context, I understand all your comments much better.  I 100% agree with you.

+1

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« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2013, 02:19:55 PM »

Does God make mistakes?

Are people born with congenital conditions?

Sure they are.  But, are they mistakes on God's part?

You tell me. I'm not trying to assign responsibility for the condition. I'm just acknowledging it, as well as the options for correcting it.

Are you equating congenital diseases with a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender?

I'm of the opinion that God does not make "mistakes".  He gives us crosses and sometimes we give ourselves even more of them.  What we do with them is ultimately up to us.

I'm saying that 'ambiguous sex' is not the same as a teen or adult thinking that they are the wrong gender. I'm saying that for about 60,000 Americans, the doctor and parents didn't just observe and confirm what their sex is - they decided it. And they may have decided it wrong. Go look up 'intersex'.

I know personally three such people. Two of them are XXY. They are neither male nor female. They are nobody's mistakes either. They are people, and they have the right to choose which gender to identify with, since there are no allowances for 'neither'.

I have looked up "intersex".  I am well aware of ambiguous sex and gender "assignment" at or shortly following birth.  That's a whole other kettle of fish, as you rightly differentiate, from a teen or adult seeking to alter their gender status because it's the "wrong" one.  60,000 is not a small number, but when compared with the roughly 4 million births annually that represents, what...about 1.5%--not huge statistically.  In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, medically speaking it is statistically insignificant--that is, unless you or a family member happen to be in that small percentage. 

Because we live in a fallen world, anomalous  and congenital conditions will occur.  And so will it also occur that some folks "think" or "feel" that God got it wrong with them and they know better than Him.

I see nothing different in this kind of treatment to repairing harelips or holes in hearts. Being the wrong sex for one's body is just as potentially life-limiting, just in a different way. I also don't see any reason to withhold a treatment that exists, just because the condition is not a common enough one. (Try telling that to my brother-in-law, whose son has a form of cancer that is only the third identified case in the world.)

 Huh

So, I'm getting a little confused by what you're writing.  Are you equating a situation of a child being born with "ambiguous sex" and being treated for it with a physically mature person deciding that they are the wrong sex and undergoing transgender surgery and hormone therapy for it?  Earlier you said that you weren't, but it kind of seems like you are now.  Am I misreading you?

No, they are not the same. Gender assignment, surgical or not, is largely arbitrary, and the child, growing up, can find themselves feeling that the gender assigned was a mistake. I see no reason not to have that mistake corrected. (All three intersex people I mentioned above ended up gravitating to the opposite sex from the one they were raised as, in looks as well as mentality.)

An adult without intersex issues that up and decides to go bat for the other team is an extreme LARPer, really.

Thanks for clarifying!  We agree 100%.
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« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2013, 03:43:23 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.
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« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2013, 06:14:58 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

Which given how St. Paul implores everyone to be celibate, must mean that gays can be celibate if they happen to have that gift.
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« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2013, 06:28:41 PM »

Can it be argued that transgender surgery is a form of mutilation of the body?
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« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2013, 06:53:23 PM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Genotypes, phenotypes, and the fact that one may not accurately reflect the other, all were Mendel's work. Roll Eyes
Okay
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« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2013, 06:54:29 PM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

It never was. We just didn't know quite how things worked until relatively recently.
Sure it was.  It's just we didn't conjure up this garbage until recently.

Stop the presses! I agree with Kerdy for once.
Is that what the earthquake was all about.   Grin
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« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2013, 06:55:39 PM »

So, I am curious.  If I have my shins and femurs reduced in length, implants to make my head larger, an operation to make my eyes look bigger, my skin permanently dyed to a shade of green, and claim I am a Martian, does the fact I spent all of this money on painful operations make a Martian or no?  

What if instead of dying my skin I have lots and lots of hair added to my body, use my knuckles to walk with my shortened legs, have my teeth altered and my face lengthened to look like a chimp, will I be a chimp?  I could make the sounds and sling poop.  

I realize people will become angry for my wording it this way, but in all seriousness there really is no difference between this and what they (and all the others) have done.  They spend thousands to be changed to look like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.  It makes them the same kind of person who would want to be a Martian or a chimp.  Anyone who does these things has a condition, mental in nature, and to tell them it’s ok is not good and dishonest.  Yes, I know, I am a bad, bad man.


Is gender purely physical?  How reductionist.

Yes, it is.  How scientific (forensics - look it up).
Didn't think you were a materialist.

"Science" doesn't explain much
It explains male and female.  Happens all the time when people find decomposed bodies.
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« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2013, 06:56:44 PM »

I can't help but think that people didn't have these issues before they had so much free time on their hands to sit around and dwell on what "gender" they identify with the most.  You don't see hordes of people in sub-Saharan Africa concerned about their gender identity.  They are too busy worrying about important things like, you know, eating and finding somewhere to live.  Roll Eyes
Indeed.
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« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2013, 07:02:25 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

Which given how St. Paul implores everyone to be celibate, must mean that gays can be celibate if they happen to have that gift.
What gift?
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« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2013, 07:03:47 PM »

Can it be argued that transgender surgery is a form of mutilation of the body?
It could.
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« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2013, 07:27:40 PM »

Is it the idea of a vaginoplasty that gives you chills, or the fact that it costs 40 grand?
The former.

It used to happen much more often than you get to hear in the news. In the form of neonatal sex assignment surgery. Without as much as a say from the subject.

In college, we viewed a documentary about botched Jewish circumcisions, where doctors did a neonatal sex assignment surgery as a cover up which was requested by the parents under pressure from their rabbi. Apparently, such errors happen much more than people realize.

Really, what would have been easier and less expensive: (a) to repair the botched circumcision with a simple tissue graft, or (b) to do the neonatal sex assignment surgery with lots of hormonal therapy as the little boy matured into womanhood?
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« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2013, 07:47:31 PM »

Here there have been cases were an individual has 'changed' gender and then found they are not happy and wish to have a second round of surgery to return to their original gender. Some male to female post-op folks still have hands that would do a navvy proud, which tends to undermine their reassignment's credibility.

My take on this is very cautious. And not helped by the number of people who appear to want cosmetic surgeons to improve, alter or change their appearance. May some of this drive to change not be a symptom of profound psychological disorder and is going along with someone's deeply protested wish in this area necessarily good for them or society at large?

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« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2013, 11:19:08 PM »

Can it be argued that transgender surgery is a form of mutilation of the body?

It is.
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« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2013, 09:24:31 AM »

Here there have been cases were an individual has 'changed' gender and then found they are not happy and wish to have a second round of surgery to return to their original gender.

  That is almost always due to religious or ideological indoctrination.  Not all of it is Christian in origin, there are some Hindu cults that have manipulated transsexuals into renouncing their identity.
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« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2013, 10:41:22 AM »

Quote
Sexologist John Money coined the term gender role in 1955.

It is true what they say: Money is the root of all evil.
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« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2013, 11:41:17 AM »

Quote
Sexologist John Money coined the term gender role in 1955.

It is true what they say: Money is the root of all evil.
Roll Eyes

Now, that was a *cheap* shot!
 Grin
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« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2013, 12:45:30 PM »


I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not. 

I'm also a 6' tall, brunette, with brown eyes.

This is how God made me.  Wishing to be a blonde with blue eyes, while possible these days, would be wrong.  I am what I am.

People will always desire what they do not have.  Grass is always greener on the other side, until you get to the other side and realize it was all crab grass.

Be thankful for what you have.  Find a way to be at peace and make it work.

After all, you are only hear for so many years.  Focus on the important stuff.

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« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2013, 01:15:30 PM »


I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not. 

I'm also a 6' tall, brunette, with brown eyes.

This is how God made me.  Wishing to be a blonde with blue eyes, while possible these days, would be wrong.  I am what I am.

People will always desire what they do not have.  Grass is always greener on the other side, until you get to the other side and realize it was all crab grass.

Be thankful for what you have.  Find a way to be at peace and make it work.

After all, you are only hear for so many years.  Focus on the important stuff.


I like brunettes much better. They always seem to be more intelligent  #stereotyping
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« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2013, 01:44:58 PM »


I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not. 

I'm also a 6' tall, brunette, with brown eyes.

This is how God made me.  Wishing to be a blonde with blue eyes, while possible these days, would be wrong.  I am what I am.

People will always desire what they do not have.  Grass is always greener on the other side, until you get to the other side and realize it was all crab grass.

Be thankful for what you have.  Find a way to be at peace and make it work.

After all, you are only hear for so many years.  Focus on the important stuff.



As usual, beautifully said.
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« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2013, 02:04:10 PM »

...like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.

Isn't that deification--what the entire Christian life is about? We try to act like gods and pretend we're Divine in hopes we'll one day be like God even though most of us will end up in the furnace?
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« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2013, 02:09:21 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?
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« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2013, 02:10:06 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?
Well, we are pretty spectacular as a gender.  Grin
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« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
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« Reply #112 on: July 31, 2013, 02:13:39 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #113 on: July 31, 2013, 02:17:45 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.
You have experience with this?
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« Reply #114 on: July 31, 2013, 02:22:48 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Some days, yes.

Some days it's a spiritual thing....and other days it is just a physical strength thing.

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« Reply #115 on: July 31, 2013, 02:26:10 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #116 on: July 31, 2013, 02:31:45 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

When you become a man, and have some first-hand experience under your belt about that, then you can comment with greater authority.

Men have crosses to bear that only we, as men, can bear.  Women have crosses to bear that only they, as women, can bear.  Same applies to the joys in life, of which there are many.  Men and women can help each other bear their crosses and share their joys.  It ain't all doom and gloom, Sunshine...unless you make it that way for yourself!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 02:38:53 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2013, 02:36:57 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

Sounds like you need a good, long talk (or 2 or 3...) with a wise priest and/or a good counselor.  In the meantime, knock it off with the self-pity.  LOTS of people have it far worse than you do and complain far, far less--even to the point of rejoicing in and thanking God for everything they have and don't have--including their sufferings.


Oh, and you know that wish for non-existence...........?  Ooopsies....TOO LATE!  Deal with it!
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« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2013, 02:39:38 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   Wink
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« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2013, 02:40:45 PM »

And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

Let us attend:

Quote
And now look again, and see what will naturally follow it: the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

Far truer.

And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

True, he now.

And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.

Not all in a moment, he said.

He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

Certainly.

Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

Certainly.

-- Plato, The Republic
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« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2013, 02:42:30 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   Wink



 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Liza, please..........now there's a
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« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2013, 02:42:54 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.

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« Reply #122 on: July 31, 2013, 02:43:34 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   Wink



 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Liza, please..........now there's a


Cool!  Who is up for a fishing trip??  Those worms are perfect!!!  I've not gone yet this summer and am itching to go!
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« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2013, 02:45:20 PM »

I agree with a lot of what you say Liza, however...

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

If 95% of women didn't insist that guys initiate contact when interested then this wouldn't happen nearly as often. I would much prefer both men and women feeling comfortable approaching whoever they wanted to date and asking them out. Unfortunately this doesn't happen very often, so men are left trying to mind read women and figure out if they're interested or just being polite. One girl I asked out late last year was not only polite, but asked me how my weekend went/was going to go, asked me about vacations, about all sorts of things. She was a bank teller, so I expected her to be polite; but to ask me about all sorts of personal details every time I saw her? I figured I'd give it a shot. Nope, shot down, she already had a boyfriend.  Smiley police
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« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2013, 02:47:33 PM »

I may have wished God made me a male, but, I will have to deal with and accept that I am not.

Do you really wish you had been created as a man?

Being a man sucks

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself. Women on the other hand, as politically incorrect as this may be, don't have as much pressure or expectations on them. They can just marry a rich or successful man and that's it, or accept handouts from people, and no one looks down on them. But men have to make it on their own.

I could say the same thing about being a female.

You are expected to marry and start a family (and don't forget that ever ticking biological clock).  For those who do, the majority still have to hold down a job, and as a default be the main caregiver of the children, make dinner, wash the dishes, etc.  Granted men do help out, but, the majority of women's work in a couple, still falls to the woman, even if she works outside the home, too.

She cannot join the clergy.  She cannot Commune on various times of the month.  She cannot re-enter the church for 40 days after giving birth...oh yes, there's that whole giving birth thing for those who do.  Ouch. 

For the women who do not marry, well...they need to hold down a job, just like any man would.  Pay the same bills, deal with all the same worries.  Some have dependents to take care of, as well.

Did I mention that even today, women still make less money doing the same job, that men do? 

What women have to deal with that men do not, is all the crap they get from men.  All the innuendos at work and outside work.  All the looks, the whistles, the inappropriate touches, etc.

You get taken at the auto repair shops, you get taken by the furnace repair man, the plumber, etc. Just because they don't see a man standing behind you, they will stiff you for all they can.

I had one auto repair shop give me the run around, until I actually asked my manager at work to come with me during lunch.  The moment they saw him, it all changed.  They took him "in back" to show him the car, etc.

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"....while if a female is polite, all of a sudden she's "giving off signals". 

THAT is a huge issue with me.  I am polite....and I cannot tell you how many times it's gotten me in hot water.  Even the guy who delivered the dumpster which I ordered when my basement flooded last month, decided that since I was nice and polite and worried that he not injure himself, I must be interested in him.  What?   ...and the guy automatically knows where I live, because he delivered the dumpster!!  Sheesh!

I was just worried he not get maimed, I wasn't flirting.

So, yes....some days it sucks to be a female, too.

BUT....I know God made me this way for a reason....and 99/100 days it's great and I wouldn't exchange it for anything!  I have so many things that I can and do do, that I wouldn't have done, if I were a man.

However, I could have used the extra muscles when it was time to drag and dump all the wet stuff out of my basement....and I would love to have a man be there when I have repair men over. 

There ought to be a "rent a man" service....just for such occasions.   Wink



 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Liza, please..........now there's a


Cool!  Who is up for a fishing trip??  Those worms are perfect!!!  I've not gone yet this summer and am itching to go!


Okay, but only if we can eat them.  The FISH, I mean! Grin  (Trouble with fishing, around here anyway, is that you might be itching to go, but really *are* itching all over by the time you get back Cool Cool.)
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« Reply #125 on: July 31, 2013, 02:48:47 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.



But what does it matter if He is "with us" if He doesn't seem to be doing anything for the world? Is He with the millions of starving people, child prostitutes, cancer patients and other unfortunate people in the world? But God is just idly standing by while the world burns, "but don't worry, I'm with you!" as if that is supposed to offer us any sense of comfort. You know what I call people who follow us around but don't do anything? A liability. We waste all this time trying to please this invisible guy who's "with us" when we could be doing something about the world around us because He sure ain't doing anything about it. Personally, I find the fact that God claims to be "with us" while there is so much evil in the world as being more horrifying and heartless on His behalf than if He simply was not here at all. At least then, we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of suffering.
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« Reply #126 on: July 31, 2013, 02:54:45 PM »


Okay, but only if we can eat them.  The FISH, I mean! Grin  (Trouble with fishing, around here anyway, is that you might be itching to go, but really *are* itching all over by the time you get back Cool Cool.)

Of course.  I'm not the kind to catch and release.  If you aren't going to eat it, why bother catching it?

Mosquitoes are one reason I haven't gone this year.  It's been a very wet summer and they're out in force!
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« Reply #127 on: July 31, 2013, 02:56:03 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.



But what does it matter if He is "with us" if He doesn't seem to be doing anything for the world? Is He with the millions of starving people, child prostitutes, cancer patients and other unfortunate people in the world? But God is just idly standing by while the world burns, "but don't worry, I'm with you!" as if that is supposed to offer us any sense of comfort. You know what I call people who follow us around but don't do anything? A liability. We waste all this time trying to please this invisible guy who's "with us" when we could be doing something about the world around us because He sure ain't doing anything about it. Personally, I find the fact that God claims to be "with us" while there is so much evil in the world as being more horrifying and heartless on His behalf than if He simply was not here at all. At least then, we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of suffering.

You shouldn't be trying so hard to "please" Him.  (Please top referring to God as "this guy".)  It should be natural for you to be nice, and loving, caring and helpful.

Why is that so difficult?
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« Reply #128 on: July 31, 2013, 02:58:04 PM »

AND....a man who is merely being polite will not automatically be assumed to be flirting and "interested"

Whenever I talk with girls in a friendly manner my companions always assume that I'm interested in her. So, what you're saying is not exactly true. Well, at least not in my case.
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« Reply #129 on: July 31, 2013, 03:00:55 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.

That's a silly and cowardly approach to life.

Life is what you make it.

If you are having issues, then deal with them.  If you think the world is chaotic, then work at organizing it.

Didn't someone once say "be the change you want to see"?

...and stop picking on God.  You do that a lot, I've noticed.

God hasn't abandoned us.  He's always right there with us.  Every single day and moment.  YOU need to look for Him.  If you aren't seeing Him that's not His fault, but, yours.



But what does it matter if He is "with us" if He doesn't seem to be doing anything for the world? Is He with the millions of starving people, child prostitutes, cancer patients and other unfortunate people in the world? But God is just idly standing by while the world burns, "but don't worry, I'm with you!" as if that is supposed to offer us any sense of comfort. You know what I call people who follow us around but don't do anything? A liability. We waste all this time trying to please this invisible guy who's "with us" when we could be doing something about the world around us because He sure ain't doing anything about it. Personally, I find the fact that God claims to be "with us" while there is so much evil in the world as being more horrifying and heartless on His behalf than if He simply was not here at all. At least then, we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of suffering.

You shouldn't be trying so hard to "please" Him.  (Please top referring to God as "this guy".)  It should be natural for you to be nice, and loving, caring and helpful.

Why is that so difficult?


Teenage 'angst' coupled with a need for a good talk with a wise priest or other wise person.
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« Reply #130 on: July 31, 2013, 03:02:01 PM »

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.
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« Reply #131 on: July 31, 2013, 03:02:26 PM »

You have to work, no one is willing to help you, and you pretty much hold the weight of the whole world on your shoulders and are expected to make something out of yourself.

And that is how you rise to greatness.
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« Reply #132 on: July 31, 2013, 03:04:09 PM »

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

Isn't there already a whole thread devoted to this??
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« Reply #133 on: July 31, 2013, 03:05:58 PM »

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

It's called free will.

People will always find something to complain about.

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« Reply #134 on: July 31, 2013, 03:08:37 PM »

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

It's called free will.

People will always find something to complain about.



Teenagers are especially good at it. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #135 on: July 31, 2013, 03:09:27 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.
Almost every single person that I have ever run into that wishes they didn't exist has been a teenager.  In fact, I was the same way when I was a teen.  The issue is not so much the problem of existence as it is the problem that a teen is looking into a very scary future that he/she doesn't know how to deal with and it overwhelms them.  They don't have the experience to know that they will be able to make it in the world, but they are too proud to admit that they can't handle it.  I know it sucks at age 17, but in 10 years, you will look back and think: gee, I've come a long way and I've got a long way to go.  It is your emotions that are tormenting you so much, not your circumstance.  Learning how to deal with them and self regulate your emotions will serve you well as you age and mature.
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« Reply #136 on: July 31, 2013, 03:21:22 PM »

Most people who complain about how horrible the world is have never really had it hard.  I don't care that you grew up in the ghetto.  My grandma grew up listening to British bombers blasting crap all night, then seeing Russian dive bombers hitting a ship full of wounded men, and listening to them scream as it went down.  I never hear her bitch about life and I never hear her gripe about God not stopping people from doing evil things that she saw with her very eyes.

When life really does suck, people always seem to either focus on the good or cut the talk and grab the Glock.
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« Reply #137 on: July 31, 2013, 03:43:29 PM »

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

It's called free will.

People will always find something to complain about.



Teenagers are especially good at it. Roll Eyes

That's ageism!

Btw: old people are good at complaining too.
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« Reply #138 on: July 31, 2013, 03:51:26 PM »

Why is that so difficult?

Because it's a paradox no matter how I look at it.

How do I "love" God, "develop a relationship" with Him or show "kindness" and "respect" to Him if He won't communicate with me and I have no assurance that He is here? He just seems like a deadbeat father.

If, however, God is with us, what does it matter? He doesn't do anything about the evil in the world and just stands idly by, allowing the world to burn. This makes Him even harder to worship because it makes me not like Him.

It's called free will.

People will always find something to complain about.



Teenagers are especially good at it. Roll Eyes

That's ageism!

Btw: old people are good at complaining too.

Ageism, smageism, smurfism!

I didn't say they weren't.  They are.  You should meet my father-in-law.  Well...maybe not.  Only at your peril.  But teenagers are especially good at it.  Except, of course, Dutch teenagers Wink.

EDIT:  American teenagers probably are world champs at complaining.
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« Reply #139 on: July 31, 2013, 03:53:59 PM »

Most people who complain about how horrible the world is have never really had it hard.  I don't care that you grew up in the ghetto.  My grandma grew up listening to British bombers blasting crap all night, then seeing Russian dive bombers hitting a ship full of wounded men, and listening to them scream as it went down.  I never hear her bitch about life and I never hear her gripe about God not stopping people from doing evil things that she saw with her very eyes.

When life really does suck, people always seem to either focus on the good or cut the talk and grab the Glock.

Well said.

My mom, too.  Lived through all kinds of horrors as a child, had a difficult life and marriage, suffers from illness in old age....and not a peep of complaining.  Nada. 

Prays and glorifies God at all times, for all things.
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« Reply #140 on: July 31, 2013, 03:56:15 PM »

EDIT:  American teenagers probably are world champs at complaining.

Reminds me of a pic I saw the other day...

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« Reply #141 on: July 31, 2013, 03:57:45 PM »

EDIT:  American teenagers probably are world champs at complaining.

Reminds me of a pic I saw the other day...


+100
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« Reply #142 on: July 31, 2013, 03:58:51 PM »


+1000
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« Reply #143 on: July 31, 2013, 04:10:56 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.
Almost every single person that I have ever run into that wishes they didn't exist has been a teenager.  In fact, I was the same way when I was a teen.  The issue is not so much the problem of existence as it is the problem that a teen is looking into a very scary future that he/she doesn't know how to deal with and it overwhelms them.  They don't have the experience to know that they will be able to make it in the world, but they are too proud to admit that they can't handle it.  I know it sucks at age 17, but in 10 years, you will look back and think: gee, I've come a long way and I've got a long way to go.  It is your emotions that are tormenting you so much, not your circumstance.  Learning how to deal with them and self regulate your emotions will serve you well as you age and mature.

Reminds me of the old joke: A guy (probably an American Hispanic teenager Grin Grin) was bitching and moaning about his lot in his short life.  A friendly and wise (Orthodox) priest came along, listened quite carefully and attentively to him for a long period of time.  Then, when the complainer had finally run out of things to complain about, the friendly and wise priest offered this sage advice: "Cheer up!  Things could always be worse."  So, he cheered up and sure enough, things got worse! laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #144 on: July 31, 2013, 04:14:12 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.
Almost every single person that I have ever run into that wishes they didn't exist has been a teenager.  In fact, I was the same way when I was a teen.  The issue is not so much the problem of existence as it is the problem that a teen is looking into a very scary future that he/she doesn't know how to deal with and it overwhelms them.  They don't have the experience to know that they will be able to make it in the world, but they are too proud to admit that they can't handle it.  I know it sucks at age 17, but in 10 years, you will look back and think: gee, I've come a long way and I've got a long way to go.  It is your emotions that are tormenting you so much, not your circumstance.  Learning how to deal with them and self regulate your emotions will serve you well as you age and mature.

Reminds me of the old joke: A guy (probably an American Hispanic teenager Grin Grin) was bitching and moaning about his lot in his short life.  A friendly and wise (Orthodox) priest came along, listened quite carefully and attentively to him for a long period of time.  Then, when the complainer had finally run out of things to complain about, the friendly and wise priest offered this sage advice: "Cheer up!  Things could always be worse."  So, he cheered up and sure enough, things got worse! laugh laugh laugh laugh
He probably ended up biting his tongue and had no friends that symathized with him properly.
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« Reply #145 on: July 31, 2013, 04:19:31 PM »

You know what I wish for, more than anything at all?

Non existence

I don't care whether I'm a man or a woman or a monkey or a dang parrot for crying out loud. I'd just rather not exist. God creates us and throws us smack dab in the middle of this senseless, chaotic world like it's some sort of game, and leaves us there with no guidance or aid at all, with the vague options of either a) follow me and do what I say, or b) you'll end up in the furnace. Well what if I just don't want to play the game at all? I never asked to be here. And the fact that the Church condemns suicide so strictly only confirms this grim reality; that with God there is no escape. Even if you kill yourself I'm still going to be there to torment you.
Almost every single person that I have ever run into that wishes they didn't exist has been a teenager.  In fact, I was the same way when I was a teen.  The issue is not so much the problem of existence as it is the problem that a teen is looking into a very scary future that he/she doesn't know how to deal with and it overwhelms them.  They don't have the experience to know that they will be able to make it in the world, but they are too proud to admit that they can't handle it.  I know it sucks at age 17, but in 10 years, you will look back and think: gee, I've come a long way and I've got a long way to go.  It is your emotions that are tormenting you so much, not your circumstance.  Learning how to deal with them and self regulate your emotions will serve you well as you age and mature.

Reminds me of the old joke: A guy (probably an American Hispanic teenager Grin Grin) was bitching and moaning about his lot in his short life.  A friendly and wise (Orthodox) priest came along, listened quite carefully and attentively to him for a long period of time.  Then, when the complainer had finally run out of things to complain about, the friendly and wise priest offered this sage advice: "Cheer up!  Things could always be worse."  So, he cheered up and sure enough, things got worse! laugh laugh laugh laugh
He probably ended up biting his tongue and had no friends that symathized with him properly.
ROTFL!!!!!!
 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

How did you know??
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« Reply #146 on: July 31, 2013, 04:19:45 PM »

Video about shoes - worth the 3 minutes to watch it.  Packs quite a punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uofFHeP-9zM
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« Reply #147 on: July 31, 2013, 04:21:58 PM »

Video about shoes - worth the 3 minutes to watch it.  Packs quite a punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uofFHeP-9zM


Can't  Sad.  Youtube blocked  Sad Sad.  Can we have pity party for ME now??  PLEASE!!!!
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« Reply #148 on: July 31, 2013, 04:23:22 PM »


Watch it when you get home.

What about Facebook?  Blocked?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=177898039056283&set=vb.306430396123877&type=2&theater
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« Reply #149 on: July 31, 2013, 04:27:52 PM »


I rarely use the computer at home.  A little bit on weekends.  I'll try to remember.  But...woe is me, oh woe, woe, woe is me, I'm old and my memory sucks big time Grin Grin Grin.

Facebook?  Books have faces??  Don't do Facebook, twitter, iphone, ipad, youphone, theyphone, ain't got no black or blue or dingle berry device either.  I'd probably be using a 286 computer if mine still worked  Cheesy.

EDIT:  Yup.  Facebook's blocked.  Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry
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« Reply #150 on: July 31, 2013, 04:37:25 PM »

I'd probably be using a 286 computer if mine still worked  Cheesy.

I heard they're coming out with these circular disc things pretty soon and we'll be able to ditch the 5 1/4s...   it's gonna be so awesome!
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« Reply #151 on: July 31, 2013, 04:43:06 PM »

I'd probably be using a 286 computer if mine still worked  Cheesy.

I heard they're coming out with these circular disc things pretty soon and we'll be able to ditch the 5 1/4s...   it's gonna be so awesome!

<<crawls further under his rock, grimacing>>
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« Reply #152 on: July 31, 2013, 04:56:37 PM »

"Cheer up!  Things could always be worse."  So, he cheered up and sure enough, things got worse! laugh laugh laugh laugh

Cheer up Brian.
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« Reply #153 on: July 31, 2013, 05:07:44 PM »

"Cheer up!  Things could always be worse."  So, he cheered up and sure enough, things got worse! laugh laugh laugh laugh

Cheer up Brian.

Things are never so bad that they can't go worse. So beware of famous last words.
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« Reply #154 on: July 31, 2013, 05:12:07 PM »

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« Reply #155 on: July 31, 2013, 05:12:43 PM »


Okay, but only if we can eat them.  The FISH, I mean! Grin  (Trouble with fishing, around here anyway, is that you might be itching to go, but really *are* itching all over by the time you get back Cool Cool.)

Of course.  I'm not the kind to catch and release.  If you aren't going to eat it, why bother catching it?

Mosquitoes are one reason I haven't gone this year.  It's been a very wet summer and they're out in force!


Have you ever heard of BEST YET (mosquitoes and fleas) or Tickshield (stronger solution for ticks and mosquitoes in the water sheds and wooded areas) at www.cedarcide.com or Badger Balm Anti-Bug Balm (www.badgerbalm.com)? They work.

They are great pest deterrents.
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« Reply #156 on: July 31, 2013, 05:19:03 PM »

...like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.

Isn't that deification--what the entire Christian life is about? We try to act like gods and pretend we're Divine in hopes we'll one day be like God even though most of us will end up in the furnace?
Nope
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« Reply #157 on: July 31, 2013, 05:20:42 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.
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« Reply #158 on: July 31, 2013, 05:25:17 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.

They aren't the same any longer because we no longer live in a single society without any contact with others, differently-ruled ones. The separation of biological and social characteristics was a necessary one.
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« Reply #159 on: July 31, 2013, 05:26:32 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
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« Reply #160 on: July 31, 2013, 05:26:40 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.

They aren't the same any longer because we no longer live in a single society without any contact with others, differently-ruled ones. The separation of biological and social characteristics was a necessary one.
Muddy waters...
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« Reply #161 on: July 31, 2013, 05:27:09 PM »


What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.

I don't think that's fair at all. Transsexalism is completely different from anything with sexual orientation.
After Hormone Therapy the person looses all lobido, it has nothing to do with sex. They actually lose all their desire for it. To gain their libido back they have to lower their female hormone intake temporarily which isn't something that most would even consider.
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« Reply #162 on: July 31, 2013, 05:27:49 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.

Other way around, actually. Your sex remains unchanged, but your gender identity shifts.

http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
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« Reply #163 on: July 31, 2013, 05:27:53 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.

No, they aren't the same any longer because we no longer confuse biology and culture. If I wear a dress, does that make me a woman? No. If a little boy plays with Barbies, does that make him a girl? No. Does it make him homosexual? No. People will be homosexual or heterosexual either way, but their cultural preferences like what they like to wear or play with doesn't really make a difference.
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« Reply #164 on: July 31, 2013, 05:28:22 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.
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« Reply #165 on: July 31, 2013, 05:28:58 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.

Other way around, actually. Your sex remains unchanged, but your gender identity shifts.

http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
Muddy waters...
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« Reply #166 on: July 31, 2013, 05:29:04 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your gender changed because gender is subjective and cultural, but your sex is still the same.
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« Reply #167 on: July 31, 2013, 05:30:19 PM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.

No, they aren't the same any longer because we no longer confuse biology and culture.
Corrected.

Muddy waters...
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« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2013, 05:31:25 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your gender changed because gender is subjective and cultural, but your sex is still the same.
Sorry, gender didn't change. The only change is the way people now define it.
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« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2013, 05:31:43 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your sex may or may not have changed, depending on what the chromosome combination was before. If you live as a woman, the gender has definitely changed.
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« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2013, 05:33:05 PM »


Someone had their heart broken by a 'biological male'   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2013, 05:41:36 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your sex may or may not have changed, depending on what the chromosome combination was before. If you live as a woman, the gender has definitely changed.

Quote
gen·der  (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.

I blame it all on the pronouns.  Wink
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« Reply #172 on: July 31, 2013, 05:43:04 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your gender changed because gender is subjective and cultural, but your sex is still the same.

That's nonsense and you know it.
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« Reply #173 on: July 31, 2013, 05:46:30 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your sex may or may not have changed, depending on what the chromosome combination was before. If you live as a woman, the gender has definitely changed.

Quote
gen·der  (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.

I blame it all on the pronouns.  Wink

We know English speakers have a world of trouble separating physical and grammatical gender. We'll go easy on you.
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« Reply #174 on: July 31, 2013, 05:53:53 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your sex may or may not have changed, depending on what the chromosome combination was before. If you live as a woman, the gender has definitely changed.

Quote
gen·der  (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.

I blame it all on the pronouns.  Wink

We know English speakers have a world of trouble separating physical and grammatical gender. We'll go easy on you.
Cheesy
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« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2013, 05:55:47 PM »

Her restraint in not blaming it on you being an American, and thus not knowing proper English to begin with, is commendable!
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« Reply #176 on: July 31, 2013, 05:58:32 PM »

Her restraint in not blaming it on you being an American, and thus not knowing proper English to begin with, is commendable!
I refused to be confined by grammatical gender.  From now I all gender specific words shall be replaced with the word "twig"
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« Reply #177 on: July 31, 2013, 06:21:16 PM »

I refused to be confined by grammatical gender.  From now I all gender specific words shall be replaced with the word "twig"

This is funny, whether you meant it to be a subtle joke associated with the musician Twiggy or not  Cool
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« Reply #178 on: July 31, 2013, 07:41:37 PM »



Your gender changed because gender is subjective and cultural, but your sex is still the same.

That's nonsense and you know it.

Actually...its not nonsense....some people wouldn't get sex even if they changed gender.  Wink
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« Reply #179 on: July 31, 2013, 11:10:35 PM »

You can be effeminate, but you're still a man. Your gender doesn't change.
You can be post op, wear a dress, take estrogen injections and walk in high heels and you're still a man.  Your gender didnt change.

Your sex may or may not have changed, depending on what the chromosome combination was before. If you live as a woman, the gender has definitely changed.
The definition certainly has changed.
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« Reply #180 on: July 31, 2013, 11:11:42 PM »

Gender is a grammatical construct.
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« Reply #181 on: July 31, 2013, 11:14:27 PM »

Sex (which is not the same as gender) is physical. What it is not is always clear-cut.
Not anymore anyway.

" the state of being male or female"

It's origins go back to the 14th century identifying masculine and feminine.

DNA can determine whether a person was male or female who has long since died. 
Reposting for those who missed it the first time.
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« Reply #182 on: July 31, 2013, 11:41:27 PM »

Gender is a grammatical construct.

Although sometimes it involves grammatical destruction as in "Each child should have their own book."
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« Reply #183 on: July 31, 2013, 11:47:27 PM »

Most people who complain about how horrible the world is have never really had it hard.  I don't care that you grew up in the ghetto.  My grandma grew up listening to British bombers blasting crap all night, then seeing Russian dive bombers hitting a ship full of wounded men, and listening to them scream as it went down.  I never hear her bitch about life and I never hear her gripe about God not stopping people from doing evil things that she saw with her very eyes.

When life really does suck, people always seem to either focus on the good or cut the talk and grab the Glock.

This post deserves some kind of recognition.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #184 on: July 31, 2013, 11:49:24 PM »

Video about shoes - worth the 3 minutes to watch it.  Packs quite a punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uofFHeP-9zM


Can't  Sad.  Youtube blocked  Sad Sad.  Can we have pity party for ME now??  PLEASE!!!!

I feel sorry for you. Do you feel better?
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #185 on: July 31, 2013, 11:51:25 PM »

...like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.

Isn't that deification--what the entire Christian life is about? We try to act like gods and pretend we're Divine in hopes we'll one day be like God even though most of us will end up in the furnace?
Nope

What kind of psychotic pseudoprotestantism is that?
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #186 on: July 31, 2013, 11:55:02 PM »

Her restraint in not blaming it on you being an American, and thus not knowing proper English to begin with, is commendable!
I refused to be confined by grammatical gender.  From now I all gender specific words shall be replaced with the word "twig"

Don't you think that's still shows gender bias?
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #187 on: August 01, 2013, 07:34:30 AM »

Most people who complain about how horrible the world is have never really had it hard.  I don't care that you grew up in the ghetto.  My grandma grew up listening to British bombers blasting crap all night, then seeing Russian dive bombers hitting a ship full of wounded men, and listening to them scream as it went down.  I never hear her bitch about life and I never hear her gripe about God not stopping people from doing evil things that she saw with her very eyes.

When life really does suck, people always seem to either focus on the good or cut the talk and grab the Glock.

This post deserves some kind of recognition.

Personally, I prefer Sig Sauer, but that's me. Grin
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« Reply #188 on: August 01, 2013, 07:35:50 AM »

...like something they really are not in the misguided hope they will be that something.  It does not make them what they want to be.

Isn't that deification--what the entire Christian life is about? We try to act like gods and pretend we're Divine in hopes we'll one day be like God even though most of us will end up in the furnace?
Nope

What kind of psychotic pseudoprotestantism is that?

None.  It was a response to what he replied to in an incorrect fashion.
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What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #189 on: August 01, 2013, 07:40:41 AM »

I wish them all the best and hope they find all happiness in life.

-c
I hope they find Jesus.

Is Jesus lost? Huh
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« Reply #190 on: August 01, 2013, 08:36:17 AM »

I wish them all the best and hope they find all happiness in life.

-c
I hope they find Jesus.

Is Jesus lost? Huh

Almost funny.  Keep working on it.
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J Michael
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Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #191 on: August 01, 2013, 09:00:01 AM »

I wish them all well in life.

I don't think you can repress transsexualism without going insane, while a homosexual can be celibate just as easily as a heterosexual.

What's to be repressed? Transsexualism is not an orientation in itself; there are homosexual transsexuals and (belief it or not) heterosexual transsexuals. I think you are confusing "gender" for sex; the two are not the same thing.
They aren't the same any longer because people muddy the waters.  They used to be the same.

No, they aren't the same any longer because we no longer confuse biology and culture.
Corrected.

Muddy waters...

No...THIS is Muddy Waters:


And if you're not familiar with his music, how can you call yourself an American??  Cool
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:02:44 AM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
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« Reply #192 on: August 01, 2013, 09:01:36 AM »

Video about shoes - worth the 3 minutes to watch it.  Packs quite a punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uofFHeP-9zM


Can't  Sad.  Youtube blocked  Sad Sad.  Can we have pity party for ME now??  PLEASE!!!!

I feel sorry for you. Do you feel better?

Thank you, thank you, thank you, God bless you, thank you, you're an absolute angel, thank you, God bless you, ohhhh.......thank you!!  NOW I really do feel better.

Thank you.  Grin
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
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What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #193 on: August 01, 2013, 09:11:39 AM »