OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 02:11:12 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Religious requirement to help lying panhandlers  (Read 7618 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2013, 02:05:46 PM »

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Katherine, don't you know that when God or others bestow gifts on us it is because we deserve them and it is well known that we will always be excellent stewards of what we receive because of the extensive background checks that are done on us?  I think it is in the Bible somewhere...  Roll Eyes  laugh
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2013, 09:23:29 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2013, 09:29:13 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2013, 09:36:08 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.

How come in this post you say "you help them out" but in other posts you have said "you help kill them" by enabling their life-destroying condition?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #94 on: July 27, 2013, 09:37:04 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad. 

No you aren't.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #95 on: July 27, 2013, 09:38:33 PM »

Huh?  Where have I EVER said "to help kill them"?  I'm not a fan of "helping kill anyone".  I believe you might be mistaking someone else attempting to mischaracterize my viewpoint, but I have never said that.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #96 on: July 27, 2013, 09:39:18 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.

No you aren't.
LOL, assuming your 18 as your info says, yes I am.  I have friends my age with 18 yr old kids.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:39:38 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2013, 09:40:09 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.

No you aren't.
LOL, assuming your 18 as your info says, yes I am.  I have friends my age with 18 yr old kids.

You aren't 54 or older, so you're not old enough to be my dad.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2013, 09:42:14 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.

No you aren't.
LOL, assuming your 18 as your info says, yes I am.  I have friends my age with 18 yr old kids.

You aren't 54 or older, so you're not old enough to be my dad.
You have to be 36 yrs old to have a kid now?  This is news to me.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2013, 09:43:05 PM »

This isn't complicated. My dad is far older than you, so you're not old enough to be my dad. I'm not going to pursue this stupid tangent any longer.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2013, 09:43:56 PM »

This isn't complicated. My dad is far older than you, so you're not old enough to be my dad. I'm not going to pursue this stupid tangent any longer.
Ok, would you like to answer my question then?
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2013, 10:49:14 PM »

[ o.o ]
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 10:49:51 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2013, 11:29:48 PM »


William, you are missing the point.  We do not know that individual is an addict or a drunk.  What we do know is that they are stretching out their hand.  Most of us give to them, without wondering where that buck is going. 

Perhaps they have hungry kids at home.  Maybe, they just lost their job and are scared and lonely and trying to survive.


I live in the Detroit area.  Our cemeteries are located in the 8 Mile corridor.  Yes, the infamous 8 Mile.  Under the bridge that leads to the highway, there often sit homeless people asking for handouts.


I buried my godfather/uncle one cold April morning....and when we were on our way home, we stopped at the light, under the bridge.  I saw the man look at me.  His face all wrinkled with age and hardship.  He hesitated, his age making it painful to move in the cold. 

I encouraged him by actually opening my window.  As he hobbled over, I reached in the glove box, where I had put my uncle's wallet, when I took his belongings from the hospital.

I opened his wallet and found some bills in it....and I reached out the window and gave it to the outstretched hand.  I told him that these were the last dollars of my godfather Peter, whom I just buried....and it is he who is giving him the alms, not I.

The man blessed his name, and wished that God would grant him peaceful rest in gratitude for his generosity towards him.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2013, 11:45:59 PM »

The way I read William's hypothetical was that one knows the specific person asking for money is a drunk and will use the money he asks for for liquor. So, then, if this is known, why continue to say you don't know? Why presume the man is in need of money and walk away having given money feeling so much better about yourself when really you have not helped him, but hurt him. You have neither understood his situation nor God's commandment.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #104 on: July 28, 2013, 12:00:35 AM »

Why presume the man is in need of money and walk away having given money feeling so much better about yourself when really you have not helped him, but hurt him. You have neither understood his situation nor God's commandment.

Well, if such is the case, that you DO know....then make it a point to stop and talk with him.  Try to help him.  Make a pamphlet and give it to him telling him about God's love, addiction, etc.  Print out some addresses of places that can help him.  Offer to take him there.  Offer to take him to church with you.  Make a standing appointment to visit with him each week.

Perhaps giving them some time, will raise their self worth, and be just the incentive they need to turn their lives around.

Do something.  Don't just walk past him feeling good about yourself because nobody made a fool out of you today.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,786


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #105 on: July 28, 2013, 12:05:37 AM »

But that's too hard.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,725


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #106 on: July 28, 2013, 01:25:46 AM »

Get a bunch of gift cards from a fast food place that can be found just about anywhere.  There doesn't have to be much on the cards:  just a few bucks on each card, or whatever will buy a basic meal at the place.  When you see a homeless person, give them a card.  It's not hard, and you don't have to worry about how the money will be spent.
Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2013, 01:39:29 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2013, 05:50:05 AM »

Get a bunch of gift cards from a fast food place that can be found just about anywhere.  There doesn't have to be much on the cards:  just a few bucks on each card, or whatever will buy a basic meal at the place.  When you see a homeless person, give them a card.  It's not hard, and you don't have to worry about how the money will be spent.

Believe you me, you still have to worry. If it can be used for purchase, they will find a way to get cash out of it. Gift cards, bus passes, what have you. Better just to give money, let them decide what to spend it on.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:50:24 AM by FormerReformer » Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,088


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2013, 01:16:31 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.

How come in this post you say "you help them out" but in other posts you have said "you help kill them" by enabling their life-destroying condition?

How are you able to tell who is an alcoholic and who isnt?

« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:16:54 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,786


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2013, 01:17:46 PM »

Noetic instinct?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2013, 01:35:21 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.

How come in this post you say "you help them out" but in other posts you have said "you help kill them" by enabling their life-destroying condition?

How are you able to tell who is an alcoholic and who isnt?



Ask IoanC. He's the one who introduced the scenario. I know it's not as fun as making snarky replies like "noetic instinct" but I didn't create this scenario, he did.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2013, 02:19:42 PM »

Get a bunch of gift cards from a fast food place that can be found just about anywhere.  There doesn't have to be much on the cards:  just a few bucks on each card, or whatever will buy a basic meal at the place.  When you see a homeless person, give them a card.  It's not hard, and you don't have to worry about how the money will be spent.
Or you could give them cash.

Don't know why we are complicating charity.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,088


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2013, 05:34:54 PM »

Alcoholic:



People down on their luck:



« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 05:36:12 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2013, 07:30:00 PM »

If you are that destitute I'd probably take up drinking too.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,272


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2013, 08:19:53 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,505



« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2013, 08:31:51 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
But what is it that we are expected to give? Read Acts 3. A man was asking for alms, but that's not what Peter and John gave him. What they gave him was what he needed.

I disagree (at least at times) with the statement that "it is not your fault". If you give someone something knowing that it will bring him harm, you have done a disservice and ought to be held accountable.

I do agree that we should give requests for assistance their due consideration. However, some wisdom is required as well. Not an easy task.

Logged
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2013, 09:07:35 PM »

It's interesting how we know that a stranger we don't even know is an alcoholic or a drug addict--if we don't know the person, how can we know this?  Could it be that we are determining this by our stereotypes of alcoholics and drug addicts?  Marc is right.  The alcoholic or drug addict can be the person that looks wonderful and looks like he/she has it all together on the outside.  In the last couple of years where I live, we've had a dentist, a county prosecutor and a respected restaurant owner busted and convicted of being the masterminds of a drug ring.  I've known many alcoholics and drug addicts who looked like the picture posted above.  

Abbot Tryphon in one of his latest posts posted something very applicable to this subject.  He posted that he was out having breakfast with a priest and a beggar came up to them that was hungry.  The priest gave him $5, and they were castigated by a young man for giving this guy money when he will probably spend it on booze or drugs.  The guy who thought they shouldn't have given the beggar money followed him to see what he did with it.  He came back to report that the guy had spent the $5 buying yogurt and fruit.  The piece can be found here:

http://morningoffering.blogspot.com

It is the post for Saturday, July 27th.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:17:58 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,272


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #118 on: July 29, 2013, 10:36:46 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
But what is it that we are expected to give? Read Acts 3. A man was asking for alms, but that's not what Peter and John gave him. What they gave him was what he needed.

I disagree (at least at times) with the statement that "it is not your fault". If you give someone something knowing that it will bring him harm, you have done a disservice and ought to be held accountable.

I do agree that we should give requests for assistance their due consideration. However, some wisdom is required as well. Not an easy task.



Also what katherine said above -

We do not know what they'll do with the money.  For all we know they could be angels. (unawares).
We all need money for various things.  To assume somebody just wants to go buy heroine is judging others.

They ask for spare change:
It's simple. A quarter, a nickel, and two pennies - floating in your pocket - very simple.  Just give.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:37:23 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,272


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #119 on: July 29, 2013, 10:39:54 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #120 on: July 29, 2013, 11:07:11 PM »


Well, I've never given gift cards, always cash.

IF the scenarios being bandied about above are true, that the person is a known alcoholic/druggy, then perhaps a gift card isn't such a bad idea.

However.....I was thinking about this for the last few days, after reading the post on the gift cards.....and I cannot recall the last time I've seen a homeless man/woman in a McDonald's.  I am wondering if they actually would be served if they came in.....

Therefore, I will opt for cash....as well as donations to the local soup kitchens, homeless shelters, etc.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,088


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2013, 10:02:21 AM »

After Vigil Saturday night I was starting my car. I had noticed a young man talking to the Priest, he was in his parked car as well..

Then he came striding over to the passenger side of my car. He was young and fit looking with a buzz hair cut, torn tee shirt and holding a plastic bag... He scared me and I waived him off... I realized he must have been begging and I thought of this thread.

We all need to add some common sense to our dealings with beggars. This guy put me on guard so I had to make a quick choice.
I hope he was not the Lord in a clever disguise.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:03:14 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2013, 10:10:11 AM »


That's different.  If you don't feel safe, don't take chances.

Not all panhandlers are individuals you might want to get too close to.

That's why I said that I hesitate sometimes when I have kids with me, because I don't really know these people, nor their motives.

I feel God will realize the hesitation to assist, is due to concern over well-being, versus greed or judgment.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #123 on: July 30, 2013, 10:51:48 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2013, 10:55:33 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #125 on: July 30, 2013, 10:59:53 AM »


LOL!   Cheesy
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #126 on: July 30, 2013, 11:00:18 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2013, 11:02:04 AM »

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.
Roll Eyes
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,203



WWW
« Reply #128 on: July 30, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Happy Birthday!  I hope you aren't going out today, of all days, to spend time with the homeless.....although, if you are - bonus points!!!

I think it's great that you do all these things.  However, not everyone has the capability to do so.  Just like we are not able to visit prisoners in prison, and instead help support those who DO go and visit them, like the Orthodox Prison Ministry.

It's great you do, but, don't judge those who cannot, and at least try to do what little they can when the opportunity arises.

I, and most women, will not simply walk to the poorest areas downtown to mingle with the homeless....unless we are in a group.  However, we do support those local charities that do exactly that.

Don't judge the beggar with his hand out, and don't judge the person who is trying to do good by putting money in that hand.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #129 on: July 30, 2013, 11:57:13 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Happy Birthday!  I hope you aren't going out today, of all days, to spend time with the homeless.....although, if you are - bonus points!!!

I think it's great that you do all these things.  However, not everyone has the capability to do so.  Just like we are not able to visit prisoners in prison, and instead help support those who DO go and visit them, like the Orthodox Prison Ministry.

It's great you do, but, don't judge those who cannot, and at least try to do what little they can when the opportunity arises.

I, and most women, will not simply walk to the poorest areas downtown to mingle with the homeless....unless we are in a group.  However, we do support those local charities that do exactly that.

Don't judge the beggar with his hand out, and don't judge the person who is trying to do good by putting money in that hand.


This is one of the many times I wish I could edit passed the edit time, and I wish that I left it on preview before posting.

But, now that it is out there, the point of the poorly written and hypocritical post of mine was that, as someone who has more experience than most, I know that while everyone who is panhandling is struggling, there are many things which you can do that do not involve money.  I try to have some coupons for free meals at certain fast-food restaurants for when I do see panhandlers. 

FWIW, often the panhandlers that are suffering the most will physically go in front of a McDonald's and ask for a dollar to have a burger. 

I also know many homeless who make some extra money working odd-jobs to make ends meet.  One of many ways you can help is to let them paint your house or fix your fence for money.  Obviously within the bounds of common sense, though it is rare that they would be dishonest if they are looking to work.

The point of all of this is, you will do more help giving your time volunteering at a soup kitchen or organizing a fundraiser at your Church to give food, clothing, medical supplies, prayers, etc. to the homeless than you would giving a quarter to a panhandler.  There are so many things that you can do to help and give the most out of your time, talent, and treasure.
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #130 on: July 30, 2013, 12:10:42 PM »

Of course, none of this is a guarantee that they will not take advantage of you to buy drugs.  I once knew a woman who sold her $200 dollar food stamps card for $50 to buy drugs.  She then reported it as stolen and had it remotely deactivated, then sold the second one that she got and repeated the cycle.

The first point of this is that, as Liza mentioned, we cannot do it all by ourselves.  I have no idea how to convince people to go to rehab or to help them get off of drugs, but if the entire community were more involved, we could pool our talent and time to help these people. 

The second point is that there are some people who will take advantage of their situation no matter what you try to do to help them.  It is very difficult to say "no" to a person you know is struggling, it will always make you feel unChristian but sometimes it is for their own good. 
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,272


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #131 on: July 30, 2013, 12:19:10 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Anybody could take what you give them, sell them for some chump change, and buy drugs.  Even the man wanting alms could have done so.   It is not our fault what we do with money we give them.  We are giving with good intentions.

The question for me would exist in certain circumstances.   I heard a man once describe how a "homeless man" had a sign at a corner every day.  He'd watch him for several hours, then he'd see him fold up his cardboard sign, walk across the street, and go into an apartment. 

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #132 on: July 30, 2013, 12:24:02 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Anybody could take what you give them, sell them for some chump change, and buy drugs.  Even the man wanting alms could have done so.   It is not our fault what we do with money we give them.  We are giving with good intentions.

The question for me would exist in certain circumstances.   I heard a man once describe how a "homeless man" had a sign at a corner every day.  He'd watch him for several hours, then he'd see him fold up his cardboard sign, walk across the street, and go into an apartment. 

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...
I covered this in reply #130.
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,272


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #133 on: July 30, 2013, 12:35:24 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Anybody could take what you give them, sell them for some chump change, and buy drugs.  Even the man wanting alms could have done so.   It is not our fault what we do with money we give them.  We are giving with good intentions.

The question for me would exist in certain circumstances.   I heard a man once describe how a "homeless man" had a sign at a corner every day.  He'd watch him for several hours, then he'd see him fold up his cardboard sign, walk across the street, and go into an apartment. 

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...
I covered this in reply #130.
Yes, we agree! Smiley
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,786


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #134 on: July 30, 2013, 12:45:49 PM »

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...

I generally fall under the "give without presuming what they'll do with the money" category, but every so often I'll run into this.  

There's a lady I'm familiar with who "works" a certain NYC neighbourhood.  Her routine is always the same: she enters cafes and other food establishments and solicits donations from customers.  If you reject her without hesitation, she moves on without incident.  If you give money without hesitation, she'll thank you and move on.  But if you try to talk to her, she gets impatient, as if she'd like to move on, but feels pressured to stay, so she'll tell you a whole story about her grandchildren who are hungry and need something to eat, so she needs to get going, etc.  If you offer to buy a large pizza for her, she'll say one of them is lactose intolerant and another's a vegan or something.  If you offer to take her grocery shopping, or buy some stuff for her, etc., she'll reject all that too, but it doesn't seem to come from pride.  If you tell her that you offered all that because you have no cash to spare, but can use a credit card, that's not good enough.  When you find out through the chat that she's a RN at a local hospital and you ask why she's on the street begging if she's an employed health professional, you get several variations of F, MF, B, B, A, S, C, C, D, and a few other expletives hurled at you, along with curses upon your family (e.g., "I hope your MF mom gets hit by a bus because God hates cheap-A MF B's like you").  Then she'll move on to the next table as if nothing happened.  

It's a tough situation to negotiate.  I think, if you have little or no time, it is appropriate to give without hesitation, even if it is small.  But if you have even a little bit of time, it's worth it to try and get to know the person.  Sometimes you'll realise who's really in need versus who's using their free time to beg for supplementary income.  
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Tags: alms almsgiving 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.172 seconds with 72 queries.