OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 03:28:55 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Religious requirement to help lying panhandlers  (Read 8159 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,624



WWW
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2013, 06:54:53 PM »


Absolutely!

God knows who has what, and who can give how much.

Every little bit of help is important, monetary or otherwise.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2013, 07:11:11 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.
My only real problem with this statement is that some of the random panhandlers on the street in this situation might be doing it so they can buy drugs, get into a strip club, or go and gamble.

I remember one time I was watching the show "cops" and a police woman got a call about a homeless man who was in another man's house (of course, the house was abandoned and the man just needed a place to stay).  The woman ended up giving him a sandwich that was sitting in her car, upon hearing that he had not eaten it three days.  IMO, that is much more fulfilling than to just give some random guy who you pass on the street the change left over from the last coffee you bought in the store in front of him.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 07:12:23 PM by pmpn8rGPT » Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,136



« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2013, 08:01:23 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

And I'm sure St. Paul would be horrified by the afflictions of the poor due to Euro-socialism.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 08:05:30 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

And I'm sure St. Paul would be horrified by the afflictions of the poor due to Euro-socialism.
St. Paul is telling me he's severely amused by your contributions to this thread. Stop make him laugh that hard.
Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,405



« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 08:56:58 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 09:00:30 PM by IoanC » Logged

Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2013, 11:41:15 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

And I'm sure St. Paul would be horrified by the afflictions of the poor due to Euro-socialism.
After my recent discussions with many from Europe, they are simply horrified by what they see in America. We have the largest GDP in the world per capita (which is supposed to be a qualifer of quality in life) yet we can't even give our own citizens access to full universal healthcare, let alone even competent health insurance and administration. Some countries have such a small GDP compared to us that it could be considered irrelevant, yet they don't have to worry about filing for bankruptcy for excessive medical costs because it's free.

There's plenty of people who do not work and get a full course dinner served to them on a silver platter by servants. Hell born into such a life.

Yet the rest are still trying to scrape together the scraps leftover from the top of the pyramid, because hey all things gotta trickle down right? It's just like feeding pigeons.

Last I checked we aren't pigeons. What makes you better than me?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,136



« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2013, 02:08:34 AM »

Jealous of those people who don't work and get a full course dinner served to them on a silver platter by servants, are you?

Well, fine, we can go with an egalitarian approach and all of us can to go bankrupt together under the "Patient Elimination and Unaffordable ObumerCare."  (My health care costs will increase 83% in 2015 because of this destructive health care law.)

P.S. Tell your buds in Europe that America used to have the best quality health care in the history of the world until our current president and Congressional Democrats conspired to destroy it.

P.S. S. Panhandlers, being homeless, qualified for Medicaid and could receive quality health care at no cost, prior to the destructive ObumerCare.

Moderator:  I'm not the one who started this, but I can't let it stand without reply. 
 
I approved Achronos's post because I recognize that the issue of universal healthcare is just as much a social issue as it is a political issue and can therefore be broached on the Public Forum if the specific politics of universal healthcare is avoided. I thought Achronos did this. You, however, posted a clearly political response. Judging also from your aside to the moderator, you knew full well that you were posting a political reply and knew full well that you were violating our rules by doing so. You could have made a private request that part of the thread be moved to Politics or, even better, started your own thread on the Politics board to address Achronos's post, but you did not.

Therefore, for violating our rule prohibiting discussion of politics on the Public Forum, you are receiving this warning to last for the next two weeks. If you deem this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:15:05 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,495


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2013, 03:19:52 AM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.

+1

Selam
Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2013, 01:17:24 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.

+1

Selam


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.

Christianity is not the same thing as wimpiness.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 01:17:45 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2013, 01:23:09 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 01:26:44 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 01:27:42 PM »

P.S. S.
[grammar Nazi]"P.S." is short for "post script" and therefore, the correct terminology would be "P.P.S."[/grammar Nazi]

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.
Giving someone an allowance to go and sin for the sole purpose of not alienating them from The Church is about as ridiculous as if someone were to propose creating an Orthodox porn site.
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2013, 01:29:20 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2013, 01:31:28 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 


Great, that means "Do not judge others as a hypocrite." Not "be a terrified jellyfish."
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2013, 01:34:00 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
jeezus has been really^%$$off at those bums lately.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 01:36:30 PM by augustin717 » Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2013, 01:35:44 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 


Great, that means "Do not judge others as a hypocrite." Not "be a terrified jellyfish."
So you profess to have the ability to judge the motives and needs of those who are less fortunate? You know better than they what they need or should have?

How does one attain this gift?  I can think of many people that could use my sage wisdom in telling them what changes they ought to make in their life.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 01:36:04 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,624



WWW
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2013, 01:53:41 PM »


I, for one will always "give" some money to any panhandler and any outstretched hand that I see....IF I have money on me.  If I have very little "spare" change, it may be as little as a dollar.  If I have a bit more wiggle room that month, it will be more.

I also try to donate my time and efforts where possible.  We organize fundraisers, volunteer at soup kitchens, feed the hungry, collect canned food, and clothing, etc.

Even if we were able to help those who are actually suffering from an addiction, what good is the rehab, when they come out and return to the streets, with no place to live, and no job to sustain them?  They will go right back to doing the same thing.

Therefore, for all the rehabilitated individuals, there ought to be some sort of job, ....something.

Unless they have some self worth, they will always feel despondent.

Granted....one must always be careful, because not all homeless are innocent hapless individuals.  Some are crooks and dangerous....and on many occasions, I have been scared to deliver various collected supplies or pass things out, because even though they are grubby, the men will still be stronger than me.

I've also hesitated in helping when I have the godkids with me, if it involved too close proximity to unknown adult individuals.   I want them to learn to be charitable, but, I want them to be safe.

With all that, I would never just pass by the outstretched hand pretending I didn't see it.  I think that hand would haunt me and I would get no rest.  I try not to think where that money is going, because that really isn't any of my business.  I was told to help when asked...and they are asking.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2013, 04:17:06 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,495


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2013, 08:05:51 PM »


I, for one will always "give" some money to any panhandler and any outstretched hand that I see....IF I have money on me.  If I have very little "spare" change, it may be as little as a dollar.  If I have a bit more wiggle room that month, it will be more.

I also try to donate my time and efforts where possible.  We organize fundraisers, volunteer at soup kitchens, feed the hungry, collect canned food, and clothing, etc.

Even if we were able to help those who are actually suffering from an addiction, what good is the rehab, when they come out and return to the streets, with no place to live, and no job to sustain them?  They will go right back to doing the same thing.

Therefore, for all the rehabilitated individuals, there ought to be some sort of job, ....something.

Unless they have some self worth, they will always feel despondent.

Granted....one must always be careful, because not all homeless are innocent hapless individuals.  Some are crooks and dangerous....and on many occasions, I have been scared to deliver various collected supplies or pass things out, because even though they are grubby, the men will still be stronger than me.

I've also hesitated in helping when I have the godkids with me, if it involved too close proximity to unknown adult individuals.   I want them to learn to be charitable, but, I want them to be safe.

With all that, I would never just pass by the outstretched hand pretending I didn't see it.  I think that hand would haunt me and I would get no rest.  I try not to think where that money is going, because that really isn't any of my business.  I was told to help when asked...and they are asking.



+1


Selam
Logged

"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2013, 08:09:41 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,624



WWW
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2013, 08:20:30 PM »


"The Lord says, 'Whoever has, to him shall be given' (Mt. 13:12).

He will give, then, to those who have; that is to say, if they use freely and cheerfully what they have received, He will add to and perfect His gifts."

-From St. Augustine (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Father: First Series Vol. II; Eerdmans pg. 523)

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 890


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2013, 09:05:24 PM »

First World Problem:  I can't figure out which of the many ways I can help the poor is best.  So I'll just keep my money, look disapprovingly at them and assume they are doing drugs.

Yep. Most people with such an attitude have never been homeless, addicted, or truly hungry. I imagine that standing outside in the elements day after day, enduring curses and insults as one begs for food or money is probably very hard work.

To quote St. Paul in an effort to exculpate our responsibility to help our neighbor seems blasphemous to me. I find it sad that some professing Christians would probably let someone starve to death as they condemned them for not working. They'd probably condemn Jesus too, since He never had a 9 to 5 job.


Selam

QFT!  Also, it ignores the fact that some of the homeless do work--they just don't make enough to be able to have a place to live.  I've also thought about how Christ was dependent on others.  As you have pointed out, Jesus was not working as a carpenter during His 3 years of ministry.  People took Him and the disciples in, and some of his followers paid for food and other things that were needed.  

I've also noticed that everytime I have given a panhandler some money, the person has always said "God bless you" or "bless you".  I wonder sometimes if God isn't testing us to see whether we will walk by the person or give the person some money. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:08:24 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 890


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2013, 09:24:42 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

+1.  I have learned the hard way that God will humble us if we don't humble ourselves.  So thinking that we are better than the poor is a dangerous thing.  We could very well find ourselves in that same position if we are not careful.  God will do whatever He has to do to teach us--we are much better off if we are open to learn from Him the easy way.  By the way, I was told by my first priest, that it is God's business what the person we help does with the money.  Our money is God's money, not ours.  We are often reluctant to give money when we think of it as "my" money.  Are we going to be as stingy with the money we have been given if we think of it as "God's" money instead.

Also, there were many people who had very well paying jobs who lost their jobs in the last 5 or 6 years of the recession who are now on the dole because it is so hard to find a job these days, especially in some sections of the country.  It could happen to any one of us that one day we will have a home and be out on the streets  in the near future because of job losses.  It could happen to any one of us.  None of us is immune. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:27:23 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2013, 11:02:23 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 


Great, that means "Do not judge others as a hypocrite." Not "be a terrified jellyfish."
So you profess to have the ability to judge the motives and needs of those who are less fortunate? You know better than they what they need or should have?

How does one attain this gift?  I can think of many people that could use my sage wisdom in telling them what changes they ought to make in their life.

So you didn't actually read the post to which I was responding, you just saw an opportunity for a sick burn and jumped in.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2013, 11:03:48 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

Yeah, it's better to help them destroy their well-being and livelihood so you can feel smug about being nicer than those internet meanies.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2013, 11:05:42 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2013, 11:07:51 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

Actually, one can deal with the quote without expounding on either politics or macroeconomics.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2013, 11:08:21 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2013, 11:23:49 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2013, 11:23:49 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

I think you're reading much more into William's comments than what's there.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2013, 11:35:05 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

I think you're reading much more into William's comments than what's there.
It is entirely possible, and if I did, I apologize.  Smiley
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2013, 11:45:29 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,498


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2013, 11:53:26 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.

But the lack of a credible story might suggest that they do not need the help.

Take a chance
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2013, 12:21:05 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2013, 12:25:24 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2013, 12:27:35 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2013, 12:29:49 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.

I don't think that's all that clear. One can read what one wants to from patristic quotes the same as from Biblical quotes. If one loves oneself, one might give money no questions asked to a drunk. But if one loves the drunk, would one actually do that, knowing that they would simply be drinking themselves further into their passion? I think not.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2013, 12:33:49 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

So you have no evidence or relevant citations and your position is unsupported by the Fathers. Thanks.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2013, 12:50:01 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.

I don't think that's all that clear. One can read what one wants to from patristic quotes the same as from Biblical quotes. If one loves oneself, one might give money no questions asked to a drunk. But if one loves the drunk, would one actually do that, knowing that they would simply be drinking themselves further into their passion? I think not.
*shrugs*

Well, this seems clear to me, but to each their own, I guess.

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2013, 01:01:06 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.

I don't think that's all that clear. One can read what one wants to from patristic quotes the same as from Biblical quotes. If one loves oneself, one might give money no questions asked to a drunk. But if one loves the drunk, would one actually do that, knowing that they would simply be drinking themselves further into their passion? I think not.
*shrugs*

Well, this seems clear to me, but to each their own, I guess.

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

But enabling someone to destroy himself is a form of hatred disguised as love. What is hard to understand there? Love of my neighbor in this case means that I do not give money. In this case, the money is not alms, but a curse.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,937



« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2013, 01:03:10 AM »

*shrugs again*

If that is what you get out of that statement, then I guess you have your answer.
Logged

Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,498


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2013, 11:41:33 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

So you have no evidence or relevant citations and your position is unsupported by the Fathers. Thanks.

1 John 3
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/3.html

 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?  Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2013, 12:07:26 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

So you have no evidence or relevant citations and your position is unsupported by the Fathers. Thanks.

1 John 3
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/3.html

 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?  Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."

An alcoholic asking for money to buy alcohol is in need of something, but I don't think it is either money or alcohol.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 890


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2013, 12:11:45 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:28:38 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 890


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2013, 12:26:12 PM »

On my Facebook page, I shared a photo by the Holy Fathers that had a picture of Elder Arsenie, and it had a quote by him:

"The beggar stretches out his hand not to ask, but to give you the kingdom of heaven, but you do not notice."  

Christ had some very harsh words and consequences in Matt 25 who don't give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, take in the stranger, visit the sick or those in prison, etc.  He said that those who did those acts did it to Him.  Those who did not do those acts didn't do it to Him.  Those who don't do those acts won't be in the kingdom.  In the Jordanville prayer book, in the prayer to the Holy Spirit in the Evening prayers where it lists sins that we may have committed, it says, "or if a beggar hath come to me and I disdained him.."  If we refuse to give this stranger money because we have judged him/her to be an alcoholic or drug addict (even though we don't know this person), aren't we disdaining him?  We are looking down on that person and judging that person as not being worth our help.  I'm glad that Christ doesn't look at me or any of us that way, even as sick, broken, and sinful as we are!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:26:53 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
Tags: alms almsgiving 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.184 seconds with 72 queries.