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Author Topic: Religious requirement to help lying panhandlers  (Read 6621 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« on: July 23, 2013, 05:11:34 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 05:15:17 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?
you are t required to give money to anybody. You see when a state agency is taking them from you in order to fund some social program is doing a double good: the funding of that program but also robs you of that smug fuzzy feeling that charity engenders in every pious soul.
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 05:19:39 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 05:21:54 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.

But the lack of a credible story might suggest that they do not need the help.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 05:22:06 PM by William » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 05:26:18 PM »

Yeah, definitely possible. There's a woman who used to stand at the back entrance of Walmart here and ask for money. I later overheard people on the bus talking about her as we passed, saying that she had a house and car and whatnot and absolutely didn't need the money. It's hard to know what her situation was in reality though.   So... yeah, I'm not sure, it's probably tough to tell sometimes...
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 05:29:11 PM »

St. John Chrysostom says to give to EVERYONE who asks for money without exception in On Wealth and Poverty. That being said, seeing how many vices I already have, I don't want God smiting me for not taking care of those who ask me for money. I give charity to everyone without exception. My father worries me as he never gives money to the homeless and often laughs at them when we drive past them. He may have a big spot in Orthodox Hell reserved for him.
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 05:30:22 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.

But the lack of a credible story might suggest that they do not need the help.

What do you mean by credible story?
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 05:37:47 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.

But the lack of a credible story might suggest that they do not need the help.

What do you mean by credible story?


Well the guy I met claimed he was deaf and mute and was the brother of a basketball player that doesn't exist (I know the roster of the team) then he said "Thank you" when I gave him a five.
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 05:42:31 PM »

St. John Chrysostom says to give to EVERYONE who asks for money without exception in On Wealth and Poverty. That being said, seeing how many vices I already have, I don't want God smiting me for not taking care of those who ask me for money. I give charity to everyone without exception. My father worries me as he never gives money to the homeless and often laughs at them when we drive past them. He may have a big spot in Orthodox Hell reserved for him.
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 05:47:48 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?
you are t required to give money to anybody. You see when a state agency is taking them from you in order to fund some social program is doing a double good: the funding of that program but also robs you of that smug fuzzy feeling that charity engenders in every pious soul.

Wow.  That makes a lot of sense.



OP - The smelly bum is probably just going to spend it on booze.  So I usually give the money to them.  I can respect that.

Besides, the last thing I need to have happen is find out on the last day that it was really one of His angels in disguise trying to decide if I should be cast wiener first into the fiery pit or not, and then this end up being the deciding testimony.
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 05:52:57 PM »

I don't think there's a requirement to throw away discernment. In America, there are many people with real needs, but few if any of these are panhandlers. Even in other countries, panhandling is something of an industry for some. Here, several homeless people sell a newspaper. They both benefit from the sales, and take part in production to some extent. This seems better--to make an exchange. The paper is a dollar, but you give five, and either way, the person selling earns it all. And the person buying the newspaper gets some good information about the city's homeless community and their needs and problems. Anyone can go downtown with a cup or make a sign.
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 08:36:32 PM »

I've had panhandlers had me back what I gave them, telling me it wasn't enough.

There are those who panhandled by the door of McDonalds, but when you brought them a meal complained that they wanted the money (the McDonald's I'm speaking of was a short walk to a liquor store.

Then there is the case we had in Chicago of a burn victim on the subways.  He used to have a pail with a sign that he was raising money for an operation for plastic surgery.  He was, in fact, horribly disfigured by severe burning.

Fame became the undoing of that case: many surgeons and clinics offered to do the surgery for free. It turned out that the victim was being used by his brother (or his cousin, I don't recall exactly), who were using his misfortune to enrich themselves.  Eventually, the press got a hold on the story, and explained the whole scam.  Shortly thereafter, I never saw him again (at the time I constantly was using the subway system).

Of course, augustin's fuzzy smug feelings for statism would solve the problem by making us all poor.
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2013, 08:38:15 PM »

I don't think there's a requirement to throw away discernment. In America, there are many people with real needs, but few if any of these are panhandlers. Even in other countries, panhandling is something of an industry for some. Here, several homeless people sell a newspaper. They both benefit from the sales, and take part in production to some extent. This seems better--to make an exchange. The paper is a dollar, but you give five, and either way, the person selling earns it all. And the person buying the newspaper gets some good information about the city's homeless community and their needs and problems. Anyone can go downtown with a cup or make a sign.
I used to regularly buy the "Streetwise" newspaper until I actually read one.  It was full of all those fuzzy smug feelings that augustine shares with us.
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2013, 08:46:44 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?
you are t required to give money to anybody. You see when a state agency is taking them from you in order to fund some social program is doing a double good: the funding of that program but also robs you of that smug fuzzy feeling that charity engenders in every pious soul.

Meh. I give money to someone who asks, he or she might "misuse" it somehow (I don't consider buying alcohol to be a serious misuse. Proverbs has something to say about giving the poor wine so they may forget their troubles. I don't always carry a bottle of wine on me) or not really need it, but whatever. I give money to the state agency, it WILL misuse it. Render to Ceasar, but if you want the poor to be fed you have to do it yourself.
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 08:57:13 PM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and signs asking that people not give money to panhandlers but instead donate to the missions and soup kitchens in the city. This is probably the wisest course of action, your helping the poor and not enabling an addiction.
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 09:28:32 PM »

I gave a panhandler a twenty once and his response was: "I bet you have a hot woman at  home to ****.  I would be handing money out too if I had that."

I didn't really have a response for that.  I bid him good day.  Undecided



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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 09:47:21 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?
you are t required to give money to anybody. You see when a state agency is taking them from you in order to fund some social program is doing a double good: the funding of that program but also robs you of that smug fuzzy feeling that charity engenders in every pious soul.

Meh. I give money to someone who asks, he or she might "misuse" it somehow (I don't consider buying alcohol to be a serious misuse. Proverbs has something to say about giving the poor wine so they may forget their troubles. I don't always carry a bottle of wine on me) or not really need it, but whatever. I give money to the state agency, it WILL misuse it. Render to Ceasar, but if you want the poor to be fed you have to do it yourself.
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 10:55:19 PM »

OP - The smelly bum is probably just going to spend it on booze.  So I usually give the money to them.  I can respect that.

Besides, the last thing I need to have happen is find out on the last day that it was really one of His angels in disguise trying to decide if I should be cast wiener first into the fiery pit or not, and then this end up being the deciding testimony.
Sometimes helping a guy with a serious jones is an act of kindness.
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 11:10:58 PM »

 I used to buy them cigarets or give 'em some beer as I was always carrying some around. once a guy, in uptown, started telling me this bs story that his mom died and he needs money for the train to go to the funeral. i told him, cut the crap, do u want cigarets? he said yes, i bought him a pack and he was happy.  anyways is little on the long run. plus it provides that despicable fuzzy feeling. phew...
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2013, 11:17:30 PM »


If you have it, give it.

Don't judge them.

If you are going to pass judgment on them, it is best you not give them anything.

However, poor, dirty, smelly, addicted, etc. they are....they wish they weren't.  They wish they had our problems and our worries, which are negligible compared to theirs.

If you are capable of helping them more than just "feeding" their addiction by giving them a few bucks, do that, too.

Help everyone you see, and even look for those whom you can help.

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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2013, 12:36:43 AM »

I used to buy them cigarets or give 'em some beer as I was always carrying some around. once a guy, in uptown, started telling me this bs story that his mom died and he needs money for the train to go to the funeral. i told him, cut the crap, do u want cigarets? he said yes, i bought him a pack and he was happy.  anyways is little on the long run. plus it provides that despicable fuzzy feeling. phew...
it's the nicotine.

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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2013, 12:56:50 AM »

I don't like to judge the homeless or the panhandlers. Christ said to give to ALL without asking. St. John Chrysostom said that whenever we question their motives, we put ourselves on the judgment seat. I don't want to have God bring up against me all of the times He gifted me with something good and I used it in an immature way, so I'm definitely not going to harass the poor who ask for money from me.
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2013, 01:05:50 AM »

I don't give money to panhandlers unless they play good music.  The last time I gave any money to a panhandler was in Las Vegas in 2010.

I was once broken down on the side of a highway in 100 degree heat.  I didn't expect kindness from strangers; however, 2 SUVs gave me water.
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2013, 01:12:09 AM »

In Sunday school the kids assembled little baggies of food to give to those that panhandle. We could put like $5 in the bag to go with the food.

I did a lot of panhandling as a teen. I was given $20 a week by my parents to buy the majority of my own food. I also worked to earn money to buy my own shoes/clothes. If I wanted to buy a new pair of those little cotton mary jane shoes from the asian market, I panhandled for the difference between what I had, and what I needed.

So I do think some panhandlers are genuine. I didn't use the money I panhandled for clothing/food to buy alcohol/drugs. When I was going to use the money for those things, I was quite open and honest about it Wink Although I am aware that is far from the norm.


When we first moved to this area there was this woman always out front of the local drugstore panhandling to get away from an abusive husband. She looked awful; just covered in bruises and one eye was near swollen shut. It turns out that the horrific injuries she appeared to have were a combination of birth marks and makeup. A church that was about a block away kept offering to get her into a shelter for victims of domestic abuse. She kept refusing to go.

A man I knew growing up was a famous panhandler in the area. He was like clockwork at the same places. When he died, we found out that he had hundreds and hundreds of jars of change in in house, and he was indeed quite wealthy. Panhandling was his way of getting attention. He never needed the money, he just liked getting the money.

In the end, we shouldn't assume that people asking for money are lying automatically. But we shouldn't assume they are telling the truth either. Strike the middle ground and be kind. There was a guy with a sign asking for money to buy groceries. Instead of giving him money, I bought him about a week worth of food. He continued panhandling on the corner even after he had groceries for a week. My guess is that groceries weren't what he was looking for. On the other hand, there was a guy that asked for money to buy some food when I was at the gas station. I didn't have money to give, so I gave him the baggie of food. He voraciously ate the food and thanked me profusely. He was indeed very hungry, and that baggie of food was the first meal he had eaten in days. Another man asking me for food near a local fast food eatery stopped asking for money for food when I gave him a meal from the fast food joint.

The test of whether or not someone is genuine is if they stop looking for handouts after they reach their goal. Because when you panhandle with a purpose, you don't just keep asking for more after you have achieved that purpose.
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2013, 01:56:08 AM »

For the record; I don't give money to career panhandlers. If it is the same person, at the same corner on a schedule, they aren't panhandling for survival, they are working and punching the clock in a career.

As to homeless people not wanting to be homeless? Many don't want to be homeless, but many do want to be homeless. There is a freedom in homelessness that they don't necessarily want to give up. There are homeless people in my city that have been given apartments that still choose not to live in the apartment most of the year because in the spring/summer/fall they enjoy living on the streets.
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2013, 02:24:16 AM »

Once, while in my 20's, I gave money to a fellow on my block who knocked on our door and asked for it. Not long afterward his wife balled me out for it -he was an alcoholic -I was causing harm not only to the man, she said, but to his whole family.

Since that time I have given food, jars of peanut butter, towels, soap, and the like to homeless people that really needed something.

I never give cash to a panhandler any longer but always ask if there is some other concrete way I can help. Often they flatly refuse anything other than cash. One fellow claiming to want to "feed his family" refused an offer to take him to a store to buy a few-weeks supply of groceries and deliver it to his house after he gathered he couldn't get cash money.

A couple of weeks ago a lady in a Wal-Mart parking lot asked for enough gas money to get home. I asked her how far away she lived -10 miles. I said sure, but do you mind if I look at your gas gauge first? When she put the key in it was already all the way full. "Sorry, I can't help you this time" I said, just before reporting her to security.
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2013, 02:30:34 AM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.


I agree. And even if their story is complete B.S., they must be needy enough to concoct their tales. Obviously, if you have given to the same person repeatedly and observed them purchasing liquor or drugs with the money, then it is not uncharitable to cease continually giving to them. But I don't like to make assumptions about anyone based on first appearances. And even if they do use my money to get a fix, that fix may actually save their life at that moment. Christ is often disguised in the beggar. If I can give Christ some change, it seems the least I can do.


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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2013, 02:53:13 AM »

Living in America, with all the taxes we pay, federal income, gasoline, state income, county taxes for a public hospital, property taxes, sales taxes, local income taxes, et. al. (we work four months of the year just to pay taxes), there is abundant welfare to assist the basic needs of the beggars on the street.  They can collect disability, food stamps---secure food from the food banks and other private support, Medicaid, sleep in enclosed homeless shelters, and who knows what else.  I seldom succumb to the beggars who are only emboldened when we respond affirmatively to them.  Their needs are well taken care of through numerous government programs, supported by the excessive taxation upon me and the working American populous, and by church and non-profit organization which serve them.  I also contribute to Orthodox Church charitable concerns such as IOCC and FOCUS, and two local Orthodox entities that provide support to the less fortunate, though not substantially.  If it weren't for the exorbitant taxes we pay, I would be more supportive of responding positively to beggars and would be more supportive of charitable concerns.
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2013, 03:04:53 AM »

Living in America, with all the taxes we pay, federal income, gasoline, state income, county taxes for a public hospital, property taxes, sales taxes, local income taxes, et. al. (we work four months of the year just to pay taxes), there is abundant welfare to assist the basic needs of the beggars on the street.  They can collect disability, food stamps---secure food from the food banks and other private support, Medicaid, sleep in enclosed homeless shelters, and who knows what else.  I seldom succumb to the beggars who are only emboldened when we respond affirmatively to them.  Their needs are well taken care of through numerous government programs, supported by the excessive taxation upon me and the working American populous, and by church and non-profit organization which serve them.  I also contribute to Orthodox Church charitable concerns such as IOCC and FOCUS, and two local Orthodox entities that provide support to the less fortunate, though not substantially.  If it weren't for the exorbitant taxes we pay, I would be more supportive of responding positively to beggars and would be more supportive of charitable concerns.


But if Christ is in the beggar, then that's all that matters. We won't be judged by our government, by how much we pay in taxes, or by the charitableness of our society. We will only be judged by what we did unto Christ as He appeared to us as a person in need.


Selam
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2013, 09:23:22 AM »

Living in America, with all the taxes we pay, federal income, gasoline, state income, county taxes for a public hospital, property taxes, sales taxes, local income taxes, et. al. (we work four months of the year just to pay taxes), there is abundant welfare to assist the basic needs of the beggars on the street.  They can collect disability, food stamps---secure food from the food banks and other private support, Medicaid, sleep in enclosed homeless shelters, and who knows what else.  I seldom succumb to the beggars who are only emboldened when we respond affirmatively to them.  Their needs are well taken care of through numerous government programs, supported by the excessive taxation upon me and the working American populous, and by church and non-profit organization which serve them.  I also contribute to Orthodox Church charitable concerns such as IOCC and FOCUS, and two local Orthodox entities that provide support to the less fortunate, though not substantially.  If it weren't for the exorbitant taxes we pay, I would be more supportive of responding positively to beggars and would be more supportive of charitable concerns.


But if Christ is in the beggar, then that's all that matters. We won't be judged by our government, by how much we pay in taxes, or by the charitableness of our society. We will only be judged by what we did unto Christ as He appeared to us as a person in need.


Selam

You are missing the point.  He cannot give more to charity after he has already been robbed blind to pay for the .govs to inefficiently provide welfare.  I would bet that the Lord gave that guy the Good Samaritan picked up a break.
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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2013, 09:32:52 AM »

Living in America, with all the taxes we pay, federal income, gasoline, state income, county taxes for a public hospital, property taxes, sales taxes, local income taxes, et. al. (we work four months of the year just to pay taxes), there is abundant welfare to assist the basic needs of the beggars on the street.  They can collect disability, food stamps---secure food from the food banks and other private support, Medicaid, sleep in enclosed homeless shelters, and who knows what else.  I seldom succumb to the beggars who are only emboldened when we respond affirmatively to them.  Their needs are well taken care of through numerous government programs, supported by the excessive taxation upon me and the working American populous, and by church and non-profit organization which serve them.  I also contribute to Orthodox Church charitable concerns such as IOCC and FOCUS, and two local Orthodox entities that provide support to the less fortunate, though not substantially.  If it weren't for the exorbitant taxes we pay, I would be more supportive of responding positively to beggars and would be more supportive of charitable concerns.


But if Christ is in the beggar, then that's all that matters. We won't be judged by our government, by how much we pay in taxes, or by the charitableness of our society. We will only be judged by what we did unto Christ as He appeared to us as a person in need.


Selam
+1
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2013, 10:46:02 AM »

erm...
we should get to know the begger (british english for that word panhandler that i never saw before).
if you make friends with him/her, you will find out what he/she really needs, whether it is friendship, housing or encouragement to earn a living through other means.
surely giving your time is the best and most useful sacrifice. (and if the begger turns out to be Christ, you may get to wash his feet!)

if the begger is very far from your home and you are not able to stop for long enough to get to know him/her , then buying food for him/her is the best option.

if you are living in a developing country and the begger is thin or wearing torn and dirty clothes, then maybe giving money is right, but i have no personal experience of this situation.
i have been poor, and have been given food from churches reaching out to poor students before. i was always grateful.

disclaimer: make friends with beggers in public, well lit areas!
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2013, 11:14:55 AM »

Help does not necessarily translate to giving money. Time is more valuable than money. If you have qualms about giving cash to people of dubious need, go volunteer for a charity that aids those who really are in need.
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2013, 08:49:04 PM »

I don't think there's a requirement to throw away discernment. In America, there are many people with real needs, but few if any of these are panhandlers. Even in other countries, panhandling is something of an industry for some. Here, several homeless people sell a newspaper. They both benefit from the sales, and take part in production to some extent. This seems better--to make an exchange. The paper is a dollar, but you give five, and either way, the person selling earns it all. And the person buying the newspaper gets some good information about the city's homeless community and their needs and problems. Anyone can go downtown with a cup or make a sign.
I used to regularly buy the "Streetwise" newspaper until I actually read one.  It was full of all those fuzzy smug feelings that augustine shares with us.

The one here isn't bad. The last one I read had a good article on a support group for homeless people that had nothing to do with the government or people with homes feeling anything whatsoever.
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2013, 08:49:49 PM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and signs asking that people not give money to panhandlers but instead donate to the missions and soup kitchens in the city. This is probably the wisest course of action, your helping the poor and not enabling an addiction.

Yes indeed.
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2013, 08:51:31 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?
you are t required to give money to anybody. You see when a state agency is taking them from you in order to fund some social program is doing a double good: the funding of that program but also robs you of that smug fuzzy feeling that charity engenders in every pious soul.

Meh. I give money to someone who asks, he or she might "misuse" it somehow (I don't consider buying alcohol to be a serious misuse. Proverbs has something to say about giving the poor wine so they may forget their troubles. I don't always carry a bottle of wine on me) or not really need it, but whatever. I give money to the state agency, it WILL misuse it. Render to Ceasar, but if you want the poor to be fed you have to do it yourself.
Shhh!  You are not supposed to let it out that Caesar has no clothes.

Then there are those cases when Caesar stops you from feeding the poor. (Actually, the real Caesars never did that, but their American and Soviet wannabes do.)
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2013, 08:59:44 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2013, 09:18:55 PM »

First World Problem:  I can't figure out which of the many ways I can help the poor is best.  So I'll just keep my money, look disapprovingly at them and assume they are doing drugs.
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2013, 09:34:13 PM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and signs asking that people not give money to panhandlers but instead donate to the missions and soup kitchens in the city. This is probably the wisest course of action, your helping the poor and not enabling an addiction.

Deacon, there are many problems with that, that make it pretty far from the wisest course of action.  For one thing, the homeless who tend to need the most help are the same ones who tend to get themselves banned from pretty much every organization that helps the homeless.  And many organizations that help the homeless are quick to ban people from their premises because it improves their statistics, which helps them get grant money, and retain their current grants. 

In fact, I can think of one young woman who is homeless and was banned from all the properties of one organization that has housing (both temporary and permanent) and job placement services, in addition of course to providing food, because while she was staying there she tried to commit suicide.  Now, because they see her as a risk to themselves, she is forever barred from stepping foot on their property.

I also know a young man who was banned for half-a-year from another organization serving homeless youth because he was attacked by another of the youths there, and their policy is that if you are involved in a fight (even if that means you are being brutalized) on their premises, you are banned for 6 months. 

While the idea of donating to organizations that can help people is nice, the people who need the most help are the same people that almost all of the organizations won't deal with.
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2013, 11:03:52 PM »

Help does not necessarily translate to giving money. Time is more valuable than money. If you have qualms about giving cash to people of dubious need, go volunteer for a charity that aids those who really are in need.

Spot on!

There are so many ways to help.

One just needs to have the desire to help others.
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2013, 11:11:20 PM »

First World Problem:  I can't figure out which of the many ways I can help the poor is best.  So I'll just keep my money, look disapprovingly at them and assume they are doing drugs.

Yep. Most people with such an attitude have never been homeless, addicted, or truly hungry. I imagine that standing outside in the elements day after day, enduring curses and insults as one begs for food or money is probably very hard work.

To quote St. Paul in an effort to exculpate our responsibility to help our neighbor seems blasphemous to me. I find it sad that some professing Christians would probably let someone starve to death as they condemned them for not working. They'd probably condemn Jesus too, since He never had a 9 to 5 job.


Selam
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« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2013, 12:15:56 AM »

I haven't met panhandlers who were lying, but if they asked for a few dollars and I had it, I would give them the money. But if I suspect something, I just say that I don't have money on me.
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« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2013, 06:11:57 AM »

I used to buy them cigarets or give 'em some beer as I was always carrying some around. once a guy, in uptown, started telling me this bs story that his mom died and he needs money for the train to go to the funeral. i told him, cut the crap, do u want cigarets? he said yes, i bought him a pack and he was happy.  anyways is little on the long run. plus it provides that despicable fuzzy feeling. phew...
it's the nicotine.

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« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2013, 06:11:57 AM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.
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« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2013, 04:57:29 PM »

I don't hand out money because it's been years since I had any to spare. I support a local charity that maintains shelters; they take £3 a month off my mobile phone credit, assuming I have it. When the local food bank comes to the supermarket, I scrimp and save to get something off their list to give them. But I'm not going to jeopardise my family's survival by giving away money I can't spare. Charity begins at home.
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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2013, 06:54:53 PM »


Absolutely!

God knows who has what, and who can give how much.

Every little bit of help is important, monetary or otherwise.
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« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2013, 07:11:11 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.
My only real problem with this statement is that some of the random panhandlers on the street in this situation might be doing it so they can buy drugs, get into a strip club, or go and gamble.

I remember one time I was watching the show "cops" and a police woman got a call about a homeless man who was in another man's house (of course, the house was abandoned and the man just needed a place to stay).  The woman ended up giving him a sandwich that was sitting in her car, upon hearing that he had not eaten it three days.  IMO, that is much more fulfilling than to just give some random guy who you pass on the street the change left over from the last coffee you bought in the store in front of him.
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« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2013, 08:01:23 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

And I'm sure St. Paul would be horrified by the afflictions of the poor due to Euro-socialism.
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« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 08:05:30 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

And I'm sure St. Paul would be horrified by the afflictions of the poor due to Euro-socialism.
St. Paul is telling me he's severely amused by your contributions to this thread. Stop make him laugh that hard.
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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 08:56:58 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.
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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2013, 11:41:15 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

And I'm sure St. Paul would be horrified by the afflictions of the poor due to Euro-socialism.
After my recent discussions with many from Europe, they are simply horrified by what they see in America. We have the largest GDP in the world per capita (which is supposed to be a qualifer of quality in life) yet we can't even give our own citizens access to full universal healthcare, let alone even competent health insurance and administration. Some countries have such a small GDP compared to us that it could be considered irrelevant, yet they don't have to worry about filing for bankruptcy for excessive medical costs because it's free.

There's plenty of people who do not work and get a full course dinner served to them on a silver platter by servants. Hell born into such a life.

Yet the rest are still trying to scrape together the scraps leftover from the top of the pyramid, because hey all things gotta trickle down right? It's just like feeding pigeons.

Last I checked we aren't pigeons. What makes you better than me?
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« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2013, 02:08:34 AM »

Jealous of those people who don't work and get a full course dinner served to them on a silver platter by servants, are you?

Well, fine, we can go with an egalitarian approach and all of us can to go bankrupt together under the "Patient Elimination and Unaffordable ObumerCare."  (My health care costs will increase 83% in 2015 because of this destructive health care law.)

P.S. Tell your buds in Europe that America used to have the best quality health care in the history of the world until our current president and Congressional Democrats conspired to destroy it.

P.S. S. Panhandlers, being homeless, qualified for Medicaid and could receive quality health care at no cost, prior to the destructive ObumerCare.

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I approved Achronos's post because I recognize that the issue of universal healthcare is just as much a social issue as it is a political issue and can therefore be broached on the Public Forum if the specific politics of universal healthcare is avoided. I thought Achronos did this. You, however, posted a clearly political response. Judging also from your aside to the moderator, you knew full well that you were posting a political reply and knew full well that you were violating our rules by doing so. You could have made a private request that part of the thread be moved to Politics or, even better, started your own thread on the Politics board to address Achronos's post, but you did not.

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« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2013, 03:19:52 AM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.

+1

Selam
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« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2013, 01:17:24 PM »

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.

+1

Selam


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.

Christianity is not the same thing as wimpiness.
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« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2013, 01:23:09 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
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« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 01:26:44 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
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« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 01:27:42 PM »

P.S. S.
[grammar Nazi]"P.S." is short for "post script" and therefore, the correct terminology would be "P.P.S."[/grammar Nazi]

Are Orthodox Christians religiously required to give money to panhandlers with absurd, made-up stories?

You give money if you think it truly helps them in any way, even spiritually -- I mean I've heard of a priest giving a little bit of money to alcoholics even though he knew they were going to buy booze, but as to show them some love and not sadden them and alienate them from The Church by turning them away.
Giving someone an allowance to go and sin for the sole purpose of not alienating them from The Church is about as ridiculous as if someone were to propose creating an Orthodox porn site.
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« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2013, 01:29:20 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 
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« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2013, 01:31:28 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 


Great, that means "Do not judge others as a hypocrite." Not "be a terrified jellyfish."
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« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2013, 01:34:00 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
jeezus has been really^%$$off at those bums lately.
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« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2013, 01:35:44 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 


Great, that means "Do not judge others as a hypocrite." Not "be a terrified jellyfish."
So you profess to have the ability to judge the motives and needs of those who are less fortunate? You know better than they what they need or should have?

How does one attain this gift?  I can think of many people that could use my sage wisdom in telling them what changes they ought to make in their life.
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« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2013, 01:53:41 PM »


I, for one will always "give" some money to any panhandler and any outstretched hand that I see....IF I have money on me.  If I have very little "spare" change, it may be as little as a dollar.  If I have a bit more wiggle room that month, it will be more.

I also try to donate my time and efforts where possible.  We organize fundraisers, volunteer at soup kitchens, feed the hungry, collect canned food, and clothing, etc.

Even if we were able to help those who are actually suffering from an addiction, what good is the rehab, when they come out and return to the streets, with no place to live, and no job to sustain them?  They will go right back to doing the same thing.

Therefore, for all the rehabilitated individuals, there ought to be some sort of job, ....something.

Unless they have some self worth, they will always feel despondent.

Granted....one must always be careful, because not all homeless are innocent hapless individuals.  Some are crooks and dangerous....and on many occasions, I have been scared to deliver various collected supplies or pass things out, because even though they are grubby, the men will still be stronger than me.

I've also hesitated in helping when I have the godkids with me, if it involved too close proximity to unknown adult individuals.   I want them to learn to be charitable, but, I want them to be safe.

With all that, I would never just pass by the outstretched hand pretending I didn't see it.  I think that hand would haunt me and I would get no rest.  I try not to think where that money is going, because that really isn't any of my business.  I was told to help when asked...and they are asking.

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« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2013, 04:17:06 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
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« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2013, 08:05:51 PM »


I, for one will always "give" some money to any panhandler and any outstretched hand that I see....IF I have money on me.  If I have very little "spare" change, it may be as little as a dollar.  If I have a bit more wiggle room that month, it will be more.

I also try to donate my time and efforts where possible.  We organize fundraisers, volunteer at soup kitchens, feed the hungry, collect canned food, and clothing, etc.

Even if we were able to help those who are actually suffering from an addiction, what good is the rehab, when they come out and return to the streets, with no place to live, and no job to sustain them?  They will go right back to doing the same thing.

Therefore, for all the rehabilitated individuals, there ought to be some sort of job, ....something.

Unless they have some self worth, they will always feel despondent.

Granted....one must always be careful, because not all homeless are innocent hapless individuals.  Some are crooks and dangerous....and on many occasions, I have been scared to deliver various collected supplies or pass things out, because even though they are grubby, the men will still be stronger than me.

I've also hesitated in helping when I have the godkids with me, if it involved too close proximity to unknown adult individuals.   I want them to learn to be charitable, but, I want them to be safe.

With all that, I would never just pass by the outstretched hand pretending I didn't see it.  I think that hand would haunt me and I would get no rest.  I try not to think where that money is going, because that really isn't any of my business.  I was told to help when asked...and they are asking.



+1


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« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2013, 08:09:41 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.
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« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2013, 08:20:30 PM »


"The Lord says, 'Whoever has, to him shall be given' (Mt. 13:12).

He will give, then, to those who have; that is to say, if they use freely and cheerfully what they have received, He will add to and perfect His gifts."

-From St. Augustine (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Father: First Series Vol. II; Eerdmans pg. 523)

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« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2013, 09:05:24 PM »

First World Problem:  I can't figure out which of the many ways I can help the poor is best.  So I'll just keep my money, look disapprovingly at them and assume they are doing drugs.

Yep. Most people with such an attitude have never been homeless, addicted, or truly hungry. I imagine that standing outside in the elements day after day, enduring curses and insults as one begs for food or money is probably very hard work.

To quote St. Paul in an effort to exculpate our responsibility to help our neighbor seems blasphemous to me. I find it sad that some professing Christians would probably let someone starve to death as they condemned them for not working. They'd probably condemn Jesus too, since He never had a 9 to 5 job.


Selam

QFT!  Also, it ignores the fact that some of the homeless do work--they just don't make enough to be able to have a place to live.  I've also thought about how Christ was dependent on others.  As you have pointed out, Jesus was not working as a carpenter during His 3 years of ministry.  People took Him and the disciples in, and some of his followers paid for food and other things that were needed.  

I've also noticed that everytime I have given a panhandler some money, the person has always said "God bless you" or "bless you".  I wonder sometimes if God isn't testing us to see whether we will walk by the person or give the person some money. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:08:24 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2013, 09:24:42 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

+1.  I have learned the hard way that God will humble us if we don't humble ourselves.  So thinking that we are better than the poor is a dangerous thing.  We could very well find ourselves in that same position if we are not careful.  God will do whatever He has to do to teach us--we are much better off if we are open to learn from Him the easy way.  By the way, I was told by my first priest, that it is God's business what the person we help does with the money.  Our money is God's money, not ours.  We are often reluctant to give money when we think of it as "my" money.  Are we going to be as stingy with the money we have been given if we think of it as "God's" money instead.

Also, there were many people who had very well paying jobs who lost their jobs in the last 5 or 6 years of the recession who are now on the dole because it is so hard to find a job these days, especially in some sections of the country.  It could happen to any one of us that one day we will have a home and be out on the streets  in the near future because of job losses.  It could happen to any one of us.  None of us is immune. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:27:23 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
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« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2013, 11:02:23 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.

Have you ever read from the Gospels?
You mean line Matthew 7?

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 


Great, that means "Do not judge others as a hypocrite." Not "be a terrified jellyfish."
So you profess to have the ability to judge the motives and needs of those who are less fortunate? You know better than they what they need or should have?

How does one attain this gift?  I can think of many people that could use my sage wisdom in telling them what changes they ought to make in their life.

So you didn't actually read the post to which I was responding, you just saw an opportunity for a sick burn and jumped in.
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« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2013, 11:03:48 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

Yeah, it's better to help them destroy their well-being and livelihood so you can feel smug about being nicer than those internet meanies.
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« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2013, 11:05:42 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.
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« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2013, 11:07:51 PM »

Or one could put them to work. As St. Paul says, "If one will not work, let him not eat."
Yet that quote needs to be placed in the context of its time. I'm sure St Paul would be horrified by the afflictions poor people face due to global capitalism.

Actually, one can deal with the quote without expounding on either politics or macroeconomics.
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« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2013, 11:08:21 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
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« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2013, 11:23:49 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.
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« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2013, 11:23:49 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

I think you're reading much more into William's comments than what's there.
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« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2013, 11:35:05 PM »


On the other hand, I think Christians need to stop being so terrified of offending people. If someone gets alienated from the church because a priest has their best interest at heart and doesn't want to fuel their life-destroying addiction, then that is the person's problem, not the priest's.


Jesus, is that you?  My what a change in tone you have.
Christianity is offensive to most.

Really you guys forget how revolutionary it is in spite of the world
It is ok to be offensive, just make sure it is being offensive for the right reason.  Withholding money from the poor because you have a superiority complex and feel that you can judge whether they are going to use it properly is not being offensive for the right reason, IMHO.

I think you're reading much more into William's comments than what's there.
It is entirely possible, and if I did, I apologize.  Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2013, 11:45:29 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.
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« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2013, 11:53:26 PM »

I agree with St. Maximos, so far as I understand him, when he said:

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The issue for me would be not whether people are honest, or virtuous, or polite, or "deserving" in those kinds of ways, but simply whether they needed the help.

But the lack of a credible story might suggest that they do not need the help.

Take a chance
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« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2013, 12:21:05 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom
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« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2013, 12:25:24 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
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« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2013, 12:27:35 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.
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« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2013, 12:29:49 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.

I don't think that's all that clear. One can read what one wants to from patristic quotes the same as from Biblical quotes. If one loves oneself, one might give money no questions asked to a drunk. But if one loves the drunk, would one actually do that, knowing that they would simply be drinking themselves further into their passion? I think not.
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« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2013, 12:33:49 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

So you have no evidence or relevant citations and your position is unsupported by the Fathers. Thanks.
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Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2013, 12:50:01 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.

I don't think that's all that clear. One can read what one wants to from patristic quotes the same as from Biblical quotes. If one loves oneself, one might give money no questions asked to a drunk. But if one loves the drunk, would one actually do that, knowing that they would simply be drinking themselves further into their passion? I think not.
*shrugs*

Well, this seems clear to me, but to each their own, I guess.

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom
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« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2013, 01:01:06 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

I doubt St. John would have enabled alcoholics.
Well, if by that you mean he wouldn't have given them a beer, then I agree with you.  If, however, he came across a drunk begging in the street, I think it is clear from the quotes above that we would have given the drunk alms without interrogating the guy.

I don't think that's all that clear. One can read what one wants to from patristic quotes the same as from Biblical quotes. If one loves oneself, one might give money no questions asked to a drunk. But if one loves the drunk, would one actually do that, knowing that they would simply be drinking themselves further into their passion? I think not.
*shrugs*

Well, this seems clear to me, but to each their own, I guess.

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

But enabling someone to destroy himself is a form of hatred disguised as love. What is hard to understand there? Love of my neighbor in this case means that I do not give money. In this case, the money is not alms, but a curse.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2013, 01:03:10 AM »

*shrugs again*

If that is what you get out of that statement, then I guess you have your answer.
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« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2013, 11:41:33 AM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

So you have no evidence or relevant citations and your position is unsupported by the Fathers. Thanks.

1 John 3
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/3.html

 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?  Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
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« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2013, 12:07:26 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Citation, please.

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into his own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on  earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune."  [St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D), On Wealth and Poverty, p. 52

It is the poor man who holds out his hand but it is God Himself who receives whatever you give to the poor.
St. John Chrysostom

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”
St. John Chrysostom

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
St. John Chrysostom

"Why do you make trouble for yourself? God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. How much most of us would complain, if God had bidden us first to examine each person's life exactly, to interfere with his behavior and his deeds, and only then to give alms? But as it is we are freed from all this kind of annoyance. Then why do we bring excessive cares on ourselves?"
St. John Chrysostom

So you have no evidence or relevant citations and your position is unsupported by the Fathers. Thanks.

1 John 3
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/3.html

 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?  Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."

An alcoholic asking for money to buy alcohol is in need of something, but I don't think it is either money or alcohol.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2013, 12:11:45 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:28:38 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
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« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2013, 12:26:12 PM »

On my Facebook page, I shared a photo by the Holy Fathers that had a picture of Elder Arsenie, and it had a quote by him:

"The beggar stretches out his hand not to ask, but to give you the kingdom of heaven, but you do not notice."  

Christ had some very harsh words and consequences in Matt 25 who don't give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, take in the stranger, visit the sick or those in prison, etc.  He said that those who did those acts did it to Him.  Those who did not do those acts didn't do it to Him.  Those who don't do those acts won't be in the kingdom.  In the Jordanville prayer book, in the prayer to the Holy Spirit in the Evening prayers where it lists sins that we may have committed, it says, "or if a beggar hath come to me and I disdained him.."  If we refuse to give this stranger money because we have judged him/her to be an alcoholic or drug addict (even though we don't know this person), aren't we disdaining him?  We are looking down on that person and judging that person as not being worth our help.  I'm glad that Christ doesn't look at me or any of us that way, even as sick, broken, and sinful as we are!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:26:53 PM by katherine 2001 » Logged
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« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2013, 02:05:46 PM »

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Katherine, don't you know that when God or others bestow gifts on us it is because we deserve them and it is well known that we will always be excellent stewards of what we receive because of the extensive background checks that are done on us?  I think it is in the Bible somewhere...  Roll Eyes  laugh
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« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2013, 09:23:29 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2013, 09:29:13 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.
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« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2013, 09:36:08 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.

How come in this post you say "you help them out" but in other posts you have said "you help kill them" by enabling their life-destroying condition?
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« Reply #94 on: July 27, 2013, 09:37:04 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad. 

No you aren't.
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« Reply #95 on: July 27, 2013, 09:38:33 PM »

Huh?  Where have I EVER said "to help kill them"?  I'm not a fan of "helping kill anyone".  I believe you might be mistaking someone else attempting to mischaracterize my viewpoint, but I have never said that.
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« Reply #96 on: July 27, 2013, 09:39:18 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.

No you aren't.
LOL, assuming your 18 as your info says, yes I am.  I have friends my age with 18 yr old kids.
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« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2013, 09:40:09 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.

No you aren't.
LOL, assuming your 18 as your info says, yes I am.  I have friends my age with 18 yr old kids.

You aren't 54 or older, so you're not old enough to be my dad.
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« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2013, 09:42:14 PM »

No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.

No you aren't.
LOL, assuming your 18 as your info says, yes I am.  I have friends my age with 18 yr old kids.

You aren't 54 or older, so you're not old enough to be my dad.
You have to be 36 yrs old to have a kid now?  This is news to me.
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« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2013, 09:43:05 PM »

This isn't complicated. My dad is far older than you, so you're not old enough to be my dad. I'm not going to pursue this stupid tangent any longer.
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« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2013, 09:43:56 PM »

This isn't complicated. My dad is far older than you, so you're not old enough to be my dad. I'm not going to pursue this stupid tangent any longer.
Ok, would you like to answer my question then?
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« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2013, 10:49:14 PM »

[ o.o ]
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« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2013, 11:29:48 PM »


William, you are missing the point.  We do not know that individual is an addict or a drunk.  What we do know is that they are stretching out their hand.  Most of us give to them, without wondering where that buck is going. 

Perhaps they have hungry kids at home.  Maybe, they just lost their job and are scared and lonely and trying to survive.


I live in the Detroit area.  Our cemeteries are located in the 8 Mile corridor.  Yes, the infamous 8 Mile.  Under the bridge that leads to the highway, there often sit homeless people asking for handouts.


I buried my godfather/uncle one cold April morning....and when we were on our way home, we stopped at the light, under the bridge.  I saw the man look at me.  His face all wrinkled with age and hardship.  He hesitated, his age making it painful to move in the cold. 

I encouraged him by actually opening my window.  As he hobbled over, I reached in the glove box, where I had put my uncle's wallet, when I took his belongings from the hospital.

I opened his wallet and found some bills in it....and I reached out the window and gave it to the outstretched hand.  I told him that these were the last dollars of my godfather Peter, whom I just buried....and it is he who is giving him the alms, not I.

The man blessed his name, and wished that God would grant him peaceful rest in gratitude for his generosity towards him.

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« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2013, 11:45:59 PM »

The way I read William's hypothetical was that one knows the specific person asking for money is a drunk and will use the money he asks for for liquor. So, then, if this is known, why continue to say you don't know? Why presume the man is in need of money and walk away having given money feeling so much better about yourself when really you have not helped him, but hurt him. You have neither understood his situation nor God's commandment.
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« Reply #104 on: July 28, 2013, 12:00:35 AM »

Why presume the man is in need of money and walk away having given money feeling so much better about yourself when really you have not helped him, but hurt him. You have neither understood his situation nor God's commandment.

Well, if such is the case, that you DO know....then make it a point to stop and talk with him.  Try to help him.  Make a pamphlet and give it to him telling him about God's love, addiction, etc.  Print out some addresses of places that can help him.  Offer to take him there.  Offer to take him to church with you.  Make a standing appointment to visit with him each week.

Perhaps giving them some time, will raise their self worth, and be just the incentive they need to turn their lives around.

Do something.  Don't just walk past him feeling good about yourself because nobody made a fool out of you today.

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« Reply #105 on: July 28, 2013, 12:05:37 AM »

But that's too hard.
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« Reply #106 on: July 28, 2013, 01:25:46 AM »

Get a bunch of gift cards from a fast food place that can be found just about anywhere.  There doesn't have to be much on the cards:  just a few bucks on each card, or whatever will buy a basic meal at the place.  When you see a homeless person, give them a card.  It's not hard, and you don't have to worry about how the money will be spent.
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« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2013, 01:39:29 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!
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« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2013, 05:50:05 AM »

Get a bunch of gift cards from a fast food place that can be found just about anywhere.  There doesn't have to be much on the cards:  just a few bucks on each card, or whatever will buy a basic meal at the place.  When you see a homeless person, give them a card.  It's not hard, and you don't have to worry about how the money will be spent.

Believe you me, you still have to worry. If it can be used for purchase, they will find a way to get cash out of it. Gift cards, bus passes, what have you. Better just to give money, let them decide what to spend it on.
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« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2013, 01:16:31 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.

How come in this post you say "you help them out" but in other posts you have said "you help kill them" by enabling their life-destroying condition?

How are you able to tell who is an alcoholic and who isnt?

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« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2013, 01:17:46 PM »

Noetic instinct?
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« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2013, 01:35:21 PM »

I don't think the priest was "terrified" of offending people.  Even if you suspect someone may misuse something you have given to them, that is not a good reason to judge them. I would daresay the priest was doing his best to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who was in need.

IoanC's given situation did not mention suspicion. He said the priest knew the KNOWN ALCOHOLICS were going to buy booze and gave them money anyway to make Jesus seem like a nice guy.

What do you know alcoholism, TheTrisagion?
Oh William, your such a fun guy to tweak!  Wink

Yes, I know about alcoholism and it's destructive ends. Nonetheless, I think I will stick w/ St. John Chrysostom who advised that we should give to those in need and if they do not use it wisely that is between them and God, we have fulfilled our part.

Amen.  I would also like to say that there are many addictions in our society, including addiction to money/wealth and possessions.  Are they any less addicts than the ones addicted to drugs and/or alcohol?  Chances are they at least know they have a problem--does the person addicted to money and possessions know that they are sick as well?  Everyone of us who is Orthodox is in a hospital because we are all sick and need healing.  We are every bit as sick as those on the street are--we are no better than they are.  It is a very nice thing to give to charities that help the poor, but sometimes, I think God wants us to come face to face with it to learn compassion and love.  Christ commanded us to love others as He has loved us.  Well, He loves me as sick, broken, and sinful as I am.  That is true for every one of us, and He loves those living on the streets and in the homeless shelters every bit as much.  We can be His hands to reach out to those on the streets and show them Christ's love.  I really do believe that God tests us when we are in this situation to see what we will do.  Maybe they tell us "God bless you" when we help them because that is God's way of telling us that we did what He hoped we would do (because we do have free will).

You need to seriously study alcoholism and addiction.

I cannot believe that you people think that literally helping someone kill themselves is Christian love. That's insane.
No offense, but I'm old enough to be your dad.  I have seen the affects of alcohol and drugs on many people.  That isn't the point.  The point is, we are called to help the poor.  We are not called to tell them how to live.  If they are willing to seek advice, certainly you can give it to them, but otherwise, you help them out, don't judge them and pray that God will move them towards him.

How come in this post you say "you help them out" but in other posts you have said "you help kill them" by enabling their life-destroying condition?

How are you able to tell who is an alcoholic and who isnt?



Ask IoanC. He's the one who introduced the scenario. I know it's not as fun as making snarky replies like "noetic instinct" but I didn't create this scenario, he did.
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« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2013, 02:19:42 PM »

Get a bunch of gift cards from a fast food place that can be found just about anywhere.  There doesn't have to be much on the cards:  just a few bucks on each card, or whatever will buy a basic meal at the place.  When you see a homeless person, give them a card.  It's not hard, and you don't have to worry about how the money will be spent.
Or you could give them cash.

Don't know why we are complicating charity.
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« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2013, 05:34:54 PM »

Alcoholic:



People down on their luck:



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« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2013, 07:30:00 PM »

If you are that destitute I'd probably take up drinking too.
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« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2013, 08:19:53 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
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« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2013, 08:31:51 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
But what is it that we are expected to give? Read Acts 3. A man was asking for alms, but that's not what Peter and John gave him. What they gave him was what he needed.

I disagree (at least at times) with the statement that "it is not your fault". If you give someone something knowing that it will bring him harm, you have done a disservice and ought to be held accountable.

I do agree that we should give requests for assistance their due consideration. However, some wisdom is required as well. Not an easy task.

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« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2013, 09:07:35 PM »

It's interesting how we know that a stranger we don't even know is an alcoholic or a drug addict--if we don't know the person, how can we know this?  Could it be that we are determining this by our stereotypes of alcoholics and drug addicts?  Marc is right.  The alcoholic or drug addict can be the person that looks wonderful and looks like he/she has it all together on the outside.  In the last couple of years where I live, we've had a dentist, a county prosecutor and a respected restaurant owner busted and convicted of being the masterminds of a drug ring.  I've known many alcoholics and drug addicts who looked like the picture posted above.  

Abbot Tryphon in one of his latest posts posted something very applicable to this subject.  He posted that he was out having breakfast with a priest and a beggar came up to them that was hungry.  The priest gave him $5, and they were castigated by a young man for giving this guy money when he will probably spend it on booze or drugs.  The guy who thought they shouldn't have given the beggar money followed him to see what he did with it.  He came back to report that the guy had spent the $5 buying yogurt and fruit.  The piece can be found here:

http://morningoffering.blogspot.com

It is the post for Saturday, July 27th.
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« Reply #118 on: July 29, 2013, 10:36:46 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
But what is it that we are expected to give? Read Acts 3. A man was asking for alms, but that's not what Peter and John gave him. What they gave him was what he needed.

I disagree (at least at times) with the statement that "it is not your fault". If you give someone something knowing that it will bring him harm, you have done a disservice and ought to be held accountable.

I do agree that we should give requests for assistance their due consideration. However, some wisdom is required as well. Not an easy task.



Also what katherine said above -

We do not know what they'll do with the money.  For all we know they could be angels. (unawares).
We all need money for various things.  To assume somebody just wants to go buy heroine is judging others.

They ask for spare change:
It's simple. A quarter, a nickel, and two pennies - floating in your pocket - very simple.  Just give.
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« Reply #119 on: July 29, 2013, 10:39:54 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
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« Reply #120 on: July 29, 2013, 11:07:11 PM »


Well, I've never given gift cards, always cash.

IF the scenarios being bandied about above are true, that the person is a known alcoholic/druggy, then perhaps a gift card isn't such a bad idea.

However.....I was thinking about this for the last few days, after reading the post on the gift cards.....and I cannot recall the last time I've seen a homeless man/woman in a McDonald's.  I am wondering if they actually would be served if they came in.....

Therefore, I will opt for cash....as well as donations to the local soup kitchens, homeless shelters, etc.

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« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2013, 10:02:21 AM »

After Vigil Saturday night I was starting my car. I had noticed a young man talking to the Priest, he was in his parked car as well..

Then he came striding over to the passenger side of my car. He was young and fit looking with a buzz hair cut, torn tee shirt and holding a plastic bag... He scared me and I waived him off... I realized he must have been begging and I thought of this thread.

We all need to add some common sense to our dealings with beggars. This guy put me on guard so I had to make a quick choice.
I hope he was not the Lord in a clever disguise.
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« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2013, 10:10:11 AM »


That's different.  If you don't feel safe, don't take chances.

Not all panhandlers are individuals you might want to get too close to.

That's why I said that I hesitate sometimes when I have kids with me, because I don't really know these people, nor their motives.

I feel God will realize the hesitation to assist, is due to concern over well-being, versus greed or judgment.
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« Reply #123 on: July 30, 2013, 10:51:48 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.
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« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2013, 10:55:33 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
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« Reply #125 on: July 30, 2013, 10:59:53 AM »


LOL!   Cheesy
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« Reply #126 on: July 30, 2013, 11:00:18 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.
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« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2013, 11:02:04 AM »

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.
Roll Eyes
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« Reply #128 on: July 30, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Happy Birthday!  I hope you aren't going out today, of all days, to spend time with the homeless.....although, if you are - bonus points!!!

I think it's great that you do all these things.  However, not everyone has the capability to do so.  Just like we are not able to visit prisoners in prison, and instead help support those who DO go and visit them, like the Orthodox Prison Ministry.

It's great you do, but, don't judge those who cannot, and at least try to do what little they can when the opportunity arises.

I, and most women, will not simply walk to the poorest areas downtown to mingle with the homeless....unless we are in a group.  However, we do support those local charities that do exactly that.

Don't judge the beggar with his hand out, and don't judge the person who is trying to do good by putting money in that hand.

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« Reply #129 on: July 30, 2013, 11:57:13 AM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Happy Birthday!  I hope you aren't going out today, of all days, to spend time with the homeless.....although, if you are - bonus points!!!

I think it's great that you do all these things.  However, not everyone has the capability to do so.  Just like we are not able to visit prisoners in prison, and instead help support those who DO go and visit them, like the Orthodox Prison Ministry.

It's great you do, but, don't judge those who cannot, and at least try to do what little they can when the opportunity arises.

I, and most women, will not simply walk to the poorest areas downtown to mingle with the homeless....unless we are in a group.  However, we do support those local charities that do exactly that.

Don't judge the beggar with his hand out, and don't judge the person who is trying to do good by putting money in that hand.


This is one of the many times I wish I could edit passed the edit time, and I wish that I left it on preview before posting.

But, now that it is out there, the point of the poorly written and hypocritical post of mine was that, as someone who has more experience than most, I know that while everyone who is panhandling is struggling, there are many things which you can do that do not involve money.  I try to have some coupons for free meals at certain fast-food restaurants for when I do see panhandlers. 

FWIW, often the panhandlers that are suffering the most will physically go in front of a McDonald's and ask for a dollar to have a burger. 

I also know many homeless who make some extra money working odd-jobs to make ends meet.  One of many ways you can help is to let them paint your house or fix your fence for money.  Obviously within the bounds of common sense, though it is rare that they would be dishonest if they are looking to work.

The point of all of this is, you will do more help giving your time volunteering at a soup kitchen or organizing a fundraiser at your Church to give food, clothing, medical supplies, prayers, etc. to the homeless than you would giving a quarter to a panhandler.  There are so many things that you can do to help and give the most out of your time, talent, and treasure.
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« Reply #130 on: July 30, 2013, 12:10:42 PM »

Of course, none of this is a guarantee that they will not take advantage of you to buy drugs.  I once knew a woman who sold her $200 dollar food stamps card for $50 to buy drugs.  She then reported it as stolen and had it remotely deactivated, then sold the second one that she got and repeated the cycle.

The first point of this is that, as Liza mentioned, we cannot do it all by ourselves.  I have no idea how to convince people to go to rehab or to help them get off of drugs, but if the entire community were more involved, we could pool our talent and time to help these people. 

The second point is that there are some people who will take advantage of their situation no matter what you try to do to help them.  It is very difficult to say "no" to a person you know is struggling, it will always make you feel unChristian but sometimes it is for their own good. 
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« Reply #131 on: July 30, 2013, 12:19:10 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Anybody could take what you give them, sell them for some chump change, and buy drugs.  Even the man wanting alms could have done so.   It is not our fault what we do with money we give them.  We are giving with good intentions.

The question for me would exist in certain circumstances.   I heard a man once describe how a "homeless man" had a sign at a corner every day.  He'd watch him for several hours, then he'd see him fold up his cardboard sign, walk across the street, and go into an apartment. 

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...
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« Reply #132 on: July 30, 2013, 12:24:02 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Anybody could take what you give them, sell them for some chump change, and buy drugs.  Even the man wanting alms could have done so.   It is not our fault what we do with money we give them.  We are giving with good intentions.

The question for me would exist in certain circumstances.   I heard a man once describe how a "homeless man" had a sign at a corner every day.  He'd watch him for several hours, then he'd see him fold up his cardboard sign, walk across the street, and go into an apartment. 

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...
I covered this in reply #130.
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« Reply #133 on: July 30, 2013, 12:35:24 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.
That is not what I am saying.

Unless you go out, find where they are sleeping, give them food, pray with them, then come back and give them tents, sleeping bags, band-aids and over the counter pain medications (Tylenol, etc.), pants, and whatever else they need like I do, I don't want to hear any of your self-righteous comments about giving the spare change in your pocket to any guy who you walk by.

Anybody could take what you give them, sell them for some chump change, and buy drugs.  Even the man wanting alms could have done so.   It is not our fault what we do with money we give them.  We are giving with good intentions.

The question for me would exist in certain circumstances.   I heard a man once describe how a "homeless man" had a sign at a corner every day.  He'd watch him for several hours, then he'd see him fold up his cardboard sign, walk across the street, and go into an apartment. 

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...
I covered this in reply #130.
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« Reply #134 on: July 30, 2013, 12:45:49 PM »

If you KNOW they are just "milking" charity, it may be a problem...

I generally fall under the "give without presuming what they'll do with the money" category, but every so often I'll run into this.  

There's a lady I'm familiar with who "works" a certain NYC neighbourhood.  Her routine is always the same: she enters cafes and other food establishments and solicits donations from customers.  If you reject her without hesitation, she moves on without incident.  If you give money without hesitation, she'll thank you and move on.  But if you try to talk to her, she gets impatient, as if she'd like to move on, but feels pressured to stay, so she'll tell you a whole story about her grandchildren who are hungry and need something to eat, so she needs to get going, etc.  If you offer to buy a large pizza for her, she'll say one of them is lactose intolerant and another's a vegan or something.  If you offer to take her grocery shopping, or buy some stuff for her, etc., she'll reject all that too, but it doesn't seem to come from pride.  If you tell her that you offered all that because you have no cash to spare, but can use a credit card, that's not good enough.  When you find out through the chat that she's a RN at a local hospital and you ask why she's on the street begging if she's an employed health professional, you get several variations of F, MF, B, B, A, S, C, C, D, and a few other expletives hurled at you, along with curses upon your family (e.g., "I hope your MF mom gets hit by a bus because God hates cheap-A MF B's like you").  Then she'll move on to the next table as if nothing happened.  

It's a tough situation to negotiate.  I think, if you have little or no time, it is appropriate to give without hesitation, even if it is small.  But if you have even a little bit of time, it's worth it to try and get to know the person.  Sometimes you'll realise who's really in need versus who's using their free time to beg for supplementary income.  
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« Reply #135 on: July 30, 2013, 02:06:05 PM »

Luke 6:30
God commanded us to "Give to anyone who asks of us".

So yes, if they are asking, give.  It is not your fault what they do with it.

Whether an Orthodox Christian is required to do this is beyond me at this point.  It would depend of if an Orthodox Christian takes the bible literally, obeys the commands of God, and doesn't have a canon or some church understanding that allows them to not follow this command.
But what is it that we are expected to give? Read Acts 3. A man was asking for alms, but that's not what Peter and John gave him. What they gave him was what he needed.

I disagree (at least at times) with the statement that "it is not your fault". If you give someone something knowing that it will bring him harm, you have done a disservice and ought to be held accountable.

I do agree that we should give requests for assistance their due consideration. However, some wisdom is required as well. Not an easy task.



Also what katherine said above -

We do not know what they'll do with the money.  For all we know they could be angels. (unawares).
We all need money for various things.  To assume somebody just wants to go buy heroine is judging others.
To assume that I assume that panhandlers just want to go buy heroine is..... what?

Quote
They ask for spare change:
It's simple. A quarter, a nickel, and two pennies - floating in your pocket - very simple.  Just give.
Yep. Just a toss over a few loose coins. Conscience clear. All is good.

Sometimes a kind word can go a long way, too. Yes, I often give to panhandlers. I will often say something like, "Things are a little tough now?" or "This isn't much, but will it help?" I'm neither Peter nor John so I don't feel qualified to offer everything that might be truly needed, but I try to put a bit of personal touch on it. I usually get a smile in return.

I also frequently contribute to musicians, etc. in public places who have some kind of container for donations. I've even struck up lengthy conversations with some.

People are looking for kindness. It may be money, but not necessarily.
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« Reply #136 on: July 30, 2013, 02:36:25 PM »


That's actually a great idea!!!

But they may need pants.  Hard to make them out of junk food wrappers....

I don't think it is up to use to judge how it will be used.  People have many needs, and to assume it only goes for drugs (etc) is not up to decide.
But we can give entire pants directly to people, no need to give them money to buy drugs.

*checks pockets*

Nope, I don't typically carry spare pairs of pants around with me.

There was a young hippie-ish couple begging near where I work. I had left over Chinese food in a bag next to me. I asked them if they wanted it and they enthusiastically said they did.. Cold bottles of water on a hot day are also appreciated...
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« Reply #137 on: August 05, 2013, 12:47:07 PM »


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« Reply #138 on: August 05, 2013, 09:17:58 PM »




+1


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« Reply #139 on: August 05, 2013, 09:21:27 PM »

One time I saw a guy in Chi Town next to a sign that said "I just want some booze."
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« Reply #140 on: August 06, 2013, 10:16:28 AM »

One time I saw a guy in Chi Town next to a sign that said "I just want some booze."
Cheesy at least he is honest!  Drop him a buck.
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« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2013, 12:18:27 PM »

One time I saw a guy in Chi Town next to a sign that said "I just want some booze."
Cheesy at least he is honest!  Drop him a buck.

Well the point of the anecdote was to show that you don't always have to be presumptuous or judgmental to know where charity is gonna go.

There's a reason why charitable organizations don't just give out cash to homeless people.
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« Reply #142 on: August 10, 2013, 06:32:42 PM »

Someone inside a Staples solicited me for a quarter; I literally ran out of the store and left the premises.

I had an "encounter" with a "panhandler" outside a bookstore a few years ago.

He was soliciting for spare change and I told him to leave me alone.  Enraged, he went to his newer model (circa 2009 or 2010) BMW and reached for something in his glovebox as I drove off, concerned that this man would follow me, towards the nearest police station.  Fortunately, nothing happened.

I had another "encounter" at a nearby outlet mall with a woman.  She said her car was broken down in the mall parking lot; I told her to either get lost or contact mall security as I kept on walking towards the Best Buy where I know off-duty MD State Troopers work as security.

To me, people who solicit money have something planned out; whether it's the next drink, the next high or the next crime.  Call it discernment; call it judgment; call it whatever.

Ruses to deceive the elderly are becoming more complex as evident by the news article below:

Quote
Montgomery County Police are looking into two incidents at the Montrose Crossing Shopping Center in North Bethesda in which people were tricked into giving strangers large amounts of money.

In the most recent case, on Tuesday, a 77-year-old man handed over $10,000 to two men who convinced him to withdraw the money from a SunTrust Bank in Bethesda,

http://www.gazette.net/article/20130808/NEWS/130809277/1022/victims-conned-into-withdrawing-money-giving-it-to-strangers-at&template=gazette
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« Reply #143 on: August 19, 2013, 10:05:42 AM »

There is a big difference between someone bumming a quarter off you and someone bilking you out of 10k. BIG difference.
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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
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"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


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« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2013, 03:23:52 AM »

It takes great humility to beg. Many people have died from pride.


Selam
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"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Quinault
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What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2013, 07:18:30 AM »

I received the CBD catalogue today. This catalogue used to be something I would peruse with great interest, circling the books I wanted and dog-earring the pages. It was interesting that there were numerous books on how you "hurt" the homeless by giving them money instead of helping them learn a skill. In light of the recent news story below of the homeless man learning code, instead of taking the $100, I found that rather interesting.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/08/22/patrick_mcconlogue_s_homeless_hacker_friend_picks_computer_coding_lessons.html
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