Racism in the Greek Orthodox Church

[Arachne]

Nice to see some people are still devoted to Fallmerayer's theories. Not.

[Apostolos]

Greeks will always use the Slav card. Greece was not spared from this invasion and Greeks today are more Slav Albanian than anything else.

And?
Your point being?
If we're indeed Slavs,or Albanians, or sub-Saharans, or Mongoloids, then?
Does that make us untermenschen, while you our true-original-authentic-pure-blooded ancient "Macedonian" neighbours to the north are the Übermenschen in the region?
Do you realize how stupid your arguments sound?
[Taken from an older post of mine during a similar discussion]:
During the 6th and 7th centuries A.D., some Slavic groups moved towards the southern areas and settled in the Greek territories, where they formed Slavic enclaves - named "Sklavinies-Σκλαβινίες" by Byzantine sources, especially in west Macedonia and Thessaly. Being cultivators and cattle breeders, they settled mainly on mountain slopes, less often in the plains and very rarely near the sea, as can be ascertained from toponymic material.
For slavic toponyms, see the basic work by M. Vasmer, "The Slavs in Greece", Berlin 1941, pp. 176-229
 A basic policy of the Byzantine administration to overcome this problem, was a demographic measure, the forcible transfer of populations. By transferring Slavic populations to Asia Minor, the Byzantine empire achieved two things:
1) on one hand the Slavic element in the Greek area was weakened, and on the other hand assimilation was facilitated, since Slavs who were transferred to Asia Minor found themselves amidst a flourishing and numerous Greek population. But this demographic measure was even applied vice-versa, thus,
2) Greek populations from Asia Minor were transplanted into Slavic populations ("ἐπὶ τάς σκλαβινίας") in order to reinforce the Greek element in these areas. So we learn, that emperor Nicephorus I (802-811) established in the northern Greek area populations which he transferred from all administrative districts ("ἐκ παντός θέματος") of Asia Minor.
The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers (Washington D.C., August 3-8, 1986) New York 1986, pp. 345-367
We find out, therefore, that the Byzantine state followed a realistic and consistent policy in order to cope with the problem of Slavic settlers, a policy that led to the control and integration of Slavic races by the empire. In this way the Byzantine state contributed decisively to their assimilation by the indigenous population and to their Hellenization.
 Now let's move to ethnography:
 1) The almost total lack of remnants of Slavic civilization (burial customs, dwellings, techniques and types of ceramics) testifies to this assimilation, which of course, could never have been achieved without the presence of an indigenous Greek population.
 2) The whole culture and artistic production of the area was purely Greek and greatly influenced SE Europe during the years of the Ottoman domination.
The main characteristics of the culture of the Slavs during the first period of their settlement in the Balkan Peninsula are:
a) the burning of the dead,
b) the hand-made ceramics with certain shapes and decorations, and
c) their half-underground hut for dwelling.
However, except for two rare exceptions (15 urns containing the ashes of the dead and some vases), no indisputably Slavic objects have been found on Greek soil.
 As Paul Lemerle writes, "Byzantium christianized, civilized and assimilated these Slavs, making them Greeks. And this is one of the most impressive victories of the Greek genius"
P. Lemerle, "La Chronique improprement dite de Monemvasie: le commentaire historique et legendaire", Revue des Etudes Byzantines 21 (1963), p. 49
 So, by the 9th century AD, the Slavs living in N.Greece, are completely assimilated by the more prosperous and culturally more developed indigenous Greeks.
For the Arvanites (and not Albanians) I won't even bother giving an aswer.
Please do not continue these stupid theses, they don't stand a chance before a trained historian or ethnognapher.

[Pravoslaven Makedonec]

Apostolos do you see how stupid it is for you to hang onto a name that is not yours. Putting Greek in front of everything doesnt make it Greek.

Fact: Did you know that Lebanese cucumbers are in fact from Greece, the seeds are Greeks.

So the Slavs were expelled from Greece and reclaimed by the Pure Greeks.

You are telling me that I am delusional and claim purity with my ancestors yet you are doing the same thing. Hypocrite.

Ps it is stupid to claim that anyone is pure only the Greeks do this.

It seems everyone wants to be Macedonian.

[Cyrillic]

Apostolos do you see how stupid it is for you to hang onto a name that is not yours.

Says a FYROMian. LOL.

[alexpetros]

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level. 

[Pravoslaven Makedonec]

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level. 

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee

But if you ask a Greek they will say they have an unbroken chain between their ancestors.

I had a Greek come up to me once who said "The sky is blue and the clouds are white, therefore God is Greek", Zimi Majka (I swear on my mother) that this happened.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are, this includes the Bulgarians and a few Philhellene's.

If Alexander I was a Philhellene and according to Greeks he was Greeks that would make him a Greek who is a friend of the Greeks? 

[Cyrillic]

You can see from their posts the type of people they are, this includes the Bulgarians and a few Philhellene's.

What type of people are the Greeks?

If Alexander I was a Philhellene and according to Greeks he was Greeks that would make him a Greek who is a friend of the Greeks?

From Liddle and Scott:

φιλ-έλλην , ηνος, ὁ, ἡ,

A. fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis, Hdt.2.178, cf. Plu.Ant.23; of Parthian kings, BMus.Cat.Coins, Parthia p.14, etc.; “φ. Ἀρσάκης” PAvrom.1A2 (i B. C.); also of Nero, SIG814.41 (Acraephiae, i A. D.); also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5.122: generally of Hellenic patriots, Pl.R.470e; of Hippocrates, Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; “καλὸν Ἕλληνα ὄντα φιλέλληνα εἶναι” X.Ages.7.4; μᾶλλον φ. ib.2.31, Isoc.4.96; μάλιστα φ., of the subjects of Evagoras, Id.9.50; coupled with φιλοβασιλεύς, Com.Adesp. in Gött.Nachr.1922.31.

[Arachne]

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

'Greek yogurt' is an accepted international trade designation for strained yogurt.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee without flavourings

Fixed that for you.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are

Sober, well informed and avoiding slander. Yep.

[Pravoslaven Makedonec]

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

'Greek yogurt' is an accepted international trade designation for strained yogurt.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee without flavourings

Fixed that for you.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are

Sober, well informed and avoiding slander. Yep.

You think your the only country in the Balkans that makes yogurt this way.

Macedonians drink coffee without flavoring too so do Bulgarians and Serbians, the only difference is we don't put our name before the coffee.

From Liddle and Scott:

φιλ-έλλην , ηνος, ὁ, ἡ,

A. fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis, Hdt.2.178, cf. Plu.Ant.23; of Parthian kings, BMus.Cat.Coins, Parthia p.14, etc.; “φ. Ἀρσάκης” PAvrom.1A2 (i B. C.); also of Nero, SIG814.41 (Acraephiae, i A. D.); also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5.122: generally of Hellenic patriots, Pl.R.470e; of Hippocrates, Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; “καλὸν Ἕλληνα ὄντα φιλέλληνα εἶναι” X.Ages.7.4; μᾶλλον φ. ib.2.31, Isoc.4.96; μάλιστα φ., of the subjects of Evagoras, Id.9.50; coupled with φιλοβασιλεύς, Com.Adesp. in Gött.Nachr.1922.31.

This explains nothing.

[Arachne]

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

'Greek yogurt' is an accepted international trade designation for strained yogurt.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee without flavourings

Fixed that for you.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are

Sober, well informed and avoiding slander. Yep.

You think your the only country in the Balkans that makes yogurt this way.

Take it up with international trade unions.

[Cyrillic]

From Liddle and Scott:

φιλ-έλλην , ηνος, ὁ, ἡ,

A. fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis, Hdt.2.178, cf. Plu.Ant.23; of Parthian kings, BMus.Cat.Coins, Parthia p.14, etc.; “φ. Ἀρσάκης” PAvrom.1A2 (i B. C.); also of Nero, SIG814.41 (Acraephiae, i A. D.); also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5.122: generally of Hellenic patriots, Pl.R.470e; of Hippocrates, Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; “καλὸν Ἕλληνα ὄντα φιλέλληνα εἶναι” X.Ages.7.4; μᾶλλον φ. ib.2.31, Isoc.4.96; μάλιστα φ., of the subjects of Evagoras, Id.9.50; coupled with φιλοβασιλεύς, Com.Adesp. in Gött.Nachr.1922.31.

This explains nothing.

It does. "Also of Hellenic tyrans, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5. 122"

[ialmisry]

I posted a little on the Slavs in Macedonia around Thessalonica:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36505.msg581466.html#msg581466

[WPM]

My mom and I are generally not racist.

[Justin Kissel]

My mom and I are generally not racist.

 

[podkarpatska]

Has anyone else noticed what may be a trend? -  "Greek" diners in New Jersey actually being run by Pakistanis? Is nothing sacred anymore? 

Actually I did see on a Lemko facebook page that in Canada one may now buy pierogi flavored potato chips, so I suppose that answers my question....

[Nikolaos Greek]

Well I have some questions for you:
1)Why the ancient Macedonians had greek names?
2)Why the ancient Macedonians believed in the gods of Hellas?
3)Why the ancient Macedonians write with greek script?
4)Why the ancient Macedonians participated in the Olympic games while allowing only for the greeks?
5)Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same customs with the ancient greeks?
6)Why the ancient Macedonians believed that kings are descendants of the greek hero Heracles, as the greek dorians?
7) Why the ancient Macedonian kings say it is greeks, and come from the royal house of Argos in Peloponnese?
8 ) Why the ancient Macedonians were taking part in amfiktionia (conference) of Delphi, while allowing only greeks?
9) Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same holy symbols with the greeks?
10)why the Ancient Macedonians spoke Ancient Greek language ?

edited the "8 )" smiley.
-Cyrillic

[Cyrillic]

8 ) Why the ancient Macedonians were taking part in amfiktionia (conference) of Delphi, while allowing only greeks?

Because the Macedonians had exterminated the Phocians in 346 BC, thus leaving their seats in the council empty. Philip's hirelings, like Aeschines, proposed that the Macedonians, who before that date weren't represented in the council, should take those seats. Shortly thereafter the Macedonians used the Amphictyonic Council to get past Thermopylae and take Elateia, prompting war with Athens and Thebes which culminated in the Battle of Chaeronea.

You're right about the rest though.

[Nikolaos Greek]

Oops I didn't know that... 

[Orest]

Has anyone else noticed what may be a trend? -  "Greek" diners in New Jersey actually being run by Pakistanis? Is nothing sacred anymore? 

Actually I did see on a Lemko facebook page that in Canada one may now buy pierogi flavored potato chips, so I suppose that answers my question....

Hey, perogies as a topping on pizza has been around for years in Canada.

[Pravoslaven Makedonec]

Well I have some questions for you:
1)Why the ancient Macedonians had greek names?
2)Why the ancient Macedonians believed in the gods of Hellas?
3)Why the ancient Macedonians write with greek script?
4)Why the ancient Macedonians participated in the Olympic games while allowing only for the greeks?
5)Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same customs with the ancient greeks?
6)Why the ancient Macedonians believed that kings are descendants of the greek hero Heracles, as the greek dorians?
7) Why the ancient Macedonian kings say it is greeks, and come from the royal house of Argos in Peloponnese?
8 ) Why the ancient Macedonians were taking part in amfiktionia (conference) of Delphi, while allowing only greeks?
9) Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same holy symbols with the greeks?
10)why the Ancient Macedonians spoke Ancient Greek language ?

edited the "8 )" smiley.
-Cyrillic

I have some questions for you too.

Why was French spoken in Russian courts?
Why are the Greek Gods the same as Egyptian and Roman Gods?
Why is English a global language?
Why do Greeks have the same customs as Turkish people?
Why do Greeks claim Macedonian symbols?
Why does everything have to originate from Greece? eg. Vasili's Gardens mother made a comment when she was making Greek salad (LOL) that all the ingredients are Greek even Lebanese cucumbers because the seeds are from Greece. The next day they went back to community TV.
Why is Zorba the Greek buried in Skopje and not Athens?
Why is it that Greeks are the only ones who have an unbroken line to their ancient ancestors forgetting the Roman empire, Byzantine empire, the supposed Slav invasion and the Ottoman Turks?
Why is it that Greeks like to put Hellass sounding names on every ancient person? eg. King Porus (supposed Greek) from Sanskrit: पुरुषोत्तम Purushottama

[mike]

Why does everything have to originate from Greece? eg. Vasili's Gardens mother made a comment when she was making Greek salad (LOL) that all the ingredients are Greek even Lebanese cucumbers because the seeds are from Greece. The next day they went back to community TV.

You forgot kimono.

[Arachne]

Why was French spoken in Russian courts?

Because emperors like Peter and Catherine were either Western themselves or westernised and wanted the same for their country. French was the language of culture and commerce all over Europe at the time.

Why are the Greek Gods the same as Egyptian

They aren't.

and Roman Gods?

Because the Romans were very heavily influenced by Hellenic thought and culture, and conflated their old Latin and Etruscan gods with the Hellene ones.

Why is English a global language?

Because until not so long ago the British Empire owned nearly half the world.

Why do Greeks have the same customs as Turkish people?

You can't coexist for five centuries without cultural osmosis.

Why do Greeks claim Macedonian symbols?

I assume you mean ancient Macedonian symbols, and that's because ancient Macedonians were part of the Hellenic states. If Slavs, who didn't exist at the time, can claim those symbols, so can Greeks.

Why does everything have to originate from Greece? eg. Vasili's Gardens mother made a comment when she was making Greek salad (LOL) that all the ingredients are Greek even Lebanese cucumbers because the seeds are from Greece. The next day they went back to community TV.

A lot of what is taken for granted in the Western world today was invented by the ancient Hellenes. Being cutesy about someone's silly claims isn't helping your cause.

Why is Zorba the Greek buried in Skopje and not Athens?

Because that's where he died, duh.

Why is it that Greeks are the only ones who have an unbroken line to their ancient ancestors forgetting the Roman empire, Byzantine empire, the supposed Slav invasion and the Ottoman Turks?

No Greeks claim genetic purity. They just reject the (discredited) claim that there is no genetic connection between ancient Hellenes and modern Greeks.

Why is it that Greeks like to put Hellass sounding names on every ancient person? eg. King Porus (supposed Greek) from Sanskrit: पुरुषोत्तम Purushottama

All languages translate or adapt proper names and placenames. You know, like Skopjans say Александар instead of Αλέξανδρος.

Were any of those questions relevant to the subject of the thread, or are you just indulging in mudslinging?

[Apostolos]

...
Why do Greeks claim Macedonian symbols?
...

Actually the so called "Macedonian" symbol is in reality an Argive one (Argos is a town in the Peloponnese, somewhere on the thumb of the hand-like peninsula in southern Greece), for the first Macedonian dynasty of Argeads (duh) claimed descent from the Argive royal house of Temenids. Read Herodotus, he narrates how the three brothers Gauanes, Aeropus, and Perdiccas fled from Argos to Macedonia, and how Perdiccas became eventually Perdiccas I, the first Argead King of Macedon.
Check out the krater below: Tydeus of Calydon and Polynices of Thebes meet at Argos and fight (Aeschylus' The Seven Against Thebes is a dramatization of their story). What are those pesky Argive symbols depicted on the city's gates, I wonder?

[Nikolaos Greek]

The vergina sun existed much before teh Macedonian kingdom was found. vergina sun was used more rare by other Greeks.
Your questions were answered above but now answer the ones I made to you.

[Byron]

It's obvious that el maco aka pravoslaven bigmacen is a troll who's sole purpose is to push his anti Greek agenda.

Frankly speaking I'm surprised the mods have kept this thread open.

[mike]

Frankly speaking I'm surprised the mods have kept this thread open.

Why should mods support anti-Macedonian agenda?

[Cyrillic]

the supposed Slav invasion

LOL.

[dzheremi]

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

And yet there is no single, distinct ethnicity corresponding to "American" (You mean Euro-Americans? Latinos? African-Americans?), "Ethiopian" (Semites/Habeshi? Cushites?), "Afghan" (Pashtuns? Hazaras? Uzbeks?), "Iraqi" (Assyrians? Arabs? Kurds? Tajiks?), etc. The phenomenon of "name of country = ethnicity" is a quintessentially European idea, and rather modern at that.

[biro]

Quite a few countries have many different ethnicities. Also, the borders of a country can change for any number of reasons, thus taking in more ethnic groups. So although some places are named for their most numerous ethnic group, others aren't.

[TheTrisagion]

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level. 

This is my favorite post of the thread.

As an aside, the most disturbing part of this thread is the stupid "e" in the title at the end of Racism.  My OCD is in overdrive and I want it fixed! 

[biro]

It would have been okay to spell it "racisme" if the entire post were in French, because that's how they spell it. 

[Cyrillic]

I don't see anything wrong about the title of this thread 

[Arachne]

I don't see anything wrong about the title of this thread 

That's because sneaky Dutchman has been sneaky.

[TheTrisagion]

Oh Snap!  It has been fixed.  My day just got infinitely better. 

[sheenj]

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level.  

This is my favorite post of the thread.

As an aside, the most disturbing part of this thread is the stupid "e" in the title at the end of Racism.  My OCD is in overdrive and I want it fixed!  

I know! I keep pronouncing it "rah-sees-muh" in my head until I realize the rest of the title is in English.

Edit: Kept the fixed title instead.

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