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Author Topic: Racism in the Greek Orthodox Church  (Read 5015 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslaven Makedonec
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« on: July 23, 2013, 04:14:32 AM »

Council of European Churches
Greek priests outraged when they see that instead of writing FYROM Macedonia

Representatives of the Greek and Cypriot Church reacted harshly to the General Secretariat of the Council of European Churches, whose map of Europe is represented by the Church of Cyprus and Macedonia, instead of "FYROM" is represented as - Macedonia.

This is a provocation, said the Metropolitan of the Greek Orthodox Church, Chrysostomos. Heads of delegations of the Greek Church, Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Mesinija, and Following the Church of Cyprus, Mr. Bishop of Neapolis Porfirios, filed a joint statement protesting the event and expressed their dissatisfaction.

General Council of European Churches from 3 to 8 July at Budapest General Meeting held at the Conference of European Churches. During yesterday's session, the Secretary General presented a map with members from Europe.


Google translate

http://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politika/grchkite-sveshtenici-zbesnale-koga-videle-deka-namesto-firom-pishuva-makedonija
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:03:14 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 04:57:18 AM »

Council of European Churches
Greek priests outraged when they see that instead of writing FYROM Macedonia

Representatives of the Greek and Cypriot Church reacted harshly to the General Secretariat of the Council of European Churches, whose map of Europe is represented by the Church of Cyprus and Macedonia, instead of "FYROM" is represented as - Macedonia.

This is a provocation, said the Metropolitan of the Greek Orthodox Church, Chrysostomos. Heads of delegations of the Greek Church, Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Mesinija, and Following the Church of Cyprus, Mr. Bishop of Neapolis Porfirios, filed a joint statement protesting the event and expressed their dissatisfaction.

General Council of European Churches from 3 to 8 July at Budapest General Meeting held at the Conference of European Churches. During yesterday's session, the Secretary General presented a map with members from Europe.


Google translate

http://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politika/grchkite-sveshtenici-zbesnale-koga-videle-deka-namesto-firom-pishuva-makedonija
Yes, we are racists...we also eat little children...alive!
Btw the canonical name of the Church is Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric, an autonomous Church under the omophorion of the Serbian Patriarch.
Also, please, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean: release from prison the canonical primate of the Church, Archbishop Jovan who is percecuted and imprisoned illegally. You are currently the only country in the whole of Europe that incarcerates people based on religious beliefs
/thread
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 08:08:26 AM »

Is this just the "Atocephalous Church of Bulgaria" all over again?  Like the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the loss of power of the Greeks?
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 08:09:56 AM »

Is this just the "Atocephalous Church of Bulgaria" all over again?  Like the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the loss of power of the Greeks?

No.
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 08:34:19 AM »

Is this just the "Atocephalous Church of Bulgaria" all over again?  Like the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the loss of power of the Greeks?

No.
Closer than one would like.
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 10:00:43 AM »

Tecnically, I wouldn't Call this racism as such. Racism is hartes, based on a persons ethnicity. This is about a name.
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 02:00:19 AM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 02:02:15 AM »

Bishop Anthimos: “No Mercy is Possible”
2011/11/18

In his latest Sunday Sermon on November 13, 2011, the Greek Orthodox Bishop of Thessaloniki Anthimos continues his anti-Macedonian diatribes, fully funded by the Greek state, with full support from the Patriarch, and a generation of Greek parishioners who have been brought up to  believe that Church is a place to talk about everything EXCEPT the love of God, and Jesus Christ. No matter what happens to the Greek economy or society, it seems there will always be sufficient borrowed German euros available to pay for the salary of professional propagandists like Anthimos, and others like him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFjIfyrQ_aE

Modified by LizaSymonenko, to add source provided by poster:  http://branov.ca/2011/11/bishop-anthimos-no-mercy/1295

« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 05:05:01 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2013, 02:05:39 AM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

Well, a Cherokee is ethnically a Cherokee regardless of the name of the country they're living in. So I'd be inclined to say yes, if "Italian" is actually an ethnicity and not just a nationality that covers multiple ethnicities.
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 03:59:58 AM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

Rhodesia became Zimbabwe. Persia became Iran. Mesopotamia became Iraq. Etc.
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 04:04:33 AM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

Well, a Cherokee is ethnically a Cherokee regardless of the name of the country they're living in. So I'd be inclined to say yes, if "Italian" is actually an ethnicity and not just a nationality that covers multiple ethnicities.

I'd be inclined to say that Italian is really more of a nationality (try convincing a Sicilian that he's ethnically the same as somebody from Piedmont).
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 05:46:16 AM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

Rhodesia became Zimbabwe. Persia became Iran. Mesopotamia became Iraq. Etc.

Samogitia became Lithuania...
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 07:24:38 AM »

The "Macedonians" should just change their name to something more appropriate, release the Serbian Orthodox bishop, stop the persecution of the canonically Orthodox and relinquish their ridiculous claims to Greek historical figures like Alexander the Great. When that is done most problems will solve itself.
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 07:26:46 AM »

The "Macedonians" should just change their name to something more appropriate

Why?
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 07:29:41 AM »

The "Macedonians" should just change their name to something more appropriate

Why?

Because:

1) They do not have an historical connection to the Macedonians

2) They do not have the language or the culture of the Macedonians

3) It gives offence to the real Macedonians and causes international conflicts

4) By adopting the name of Macedonians they lay claim to Macedonia, so to speak.

etc. etc.
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2013, 07:33:38 AM »

1) They do not have an historical connection to the Macedonians

Greeks have no historical connection to ancient Greece, Egyptians to ancient Egypt, Italians to ancient Rome etc...

Quote
3) It gives offence to the real Macedonians and causes international conflicts

What conflicts? Greek butthurt is not an international conflict.
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2013, 07:39:14 AM »

1) They do not have an historical connection to the Macedonians

So Greeks have no historical connection to ancient Greece, Egypt to ancient Egypt...

That's nonsense.

The Ancient Macedonians weren't Slavs and did not speak a Slavic language. FYROMians have nothing to do with the Macedonia of Philip II or Alexander.

Ancient Macedonia participated in the Greek leagues, spoke Greek, was invited by Isocrates to head a Panhellenic alliance against Persia and when they did overthrow Persia it wasn't Slavic, but Greek culture and language that was spread in the East.
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2013, 09:05:27 AM »

That's nonsense.

The Ancient Macedonians weren't Slavs and did not speak a Slavic language. FYROMians have nothing to do with the Macedonia of Philip II or Alexander.


Replace Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Britain, Slavic with Germanic, Greek with Celtic, and Phillip II with King Arthur, you have the story of Great Britain. You don't see the Welsh getting all butthurt about the Anglo-Saxons claiming to be British do you?
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 09:42:57 AM »

Every language has a different name for a group of people than they call themselves...this is nearly universal. What you call yourselves almost never matches what someone else calls you, be it ethnicity, your faith, your region, your nation etc.

Pride is the culprit here, and yes, it works both sides of most arguments about such things.

My $0.02
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 10:06:12 AM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

I cannot talk for the personal opinions of the bishops regarding macedonians as a people, but this specific issue is about the name of your country, not its people, therefore, in my opinion, you can't call it racism.
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2013, 10:20:30 AM »

When my people invaded what is today Denmark, they replaced the original tribes who had inhabitated the lands. One of these tribes, the jutes, left Jutland between the 4th and the 6th century, which made it easier for the danes to settle there.
Besides calling themselves danes, the people who now lived in Jutland eventually adopted the name of the old tribe, even though we had no cultural nor genetical relationship with them.
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2013, 10:20:53 AM »

This is all a temporary problem: in another couple of generations, since both Greeks and Macedonians refuse to have babies, the entire region will be known as Greater Albania...
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2013, 10:23:58 AM »

This is all a temporary problem: in another couple of generations, since both Greeks and Macedonians refuse to have babies, the entire region will be known as Greater Albania...

Or, The Islamic Republic of Greater Albania.
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2013, 10:24:54 AM »

This is all a temporary problem: in another couple of generations, since both Greeks and Macedonians refuse to have babies, the entire region will be known as Greater Albania...

Or, The Islamic Republic of Greater Albania.

Salaam.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2013, 10:27:06 AM »

Salaam.

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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2013, 10:28:37 AM »

From what I hear, the Albanian Orthodox are making lots of inroads.  The fundamentalist Moslem faction is less than popular with its no-pork, no-booze restrictions.  Most Albanian Moselms are pretty secularized.  They do seem to like their own Church, the Orthodox Church of Albania, and don't enforce death sentences for conversion (yet).  Now is the time to get busy...

This is all a temporary problem: in another couple of generations, since both Greeks and Macedonians refuse to have babies, the entire region will be known as Greater Albania...

Or, The Islamic Republic of Greater Albania.
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2013, 11:27:21 AM »

1) They do not have an historical connection to the Macedonians

Greeks have no historical connection to ancient Greece, Egyptians to ancient Egypt, Italians to ancient Rome etc...

Quote
3) It gives offence to the real Macedonians and causes international conflicts

What conflicts? Greek butthurt is not an international conflict.


Michal is right.  It is only a problem for the Greeks and they are being ethnocentric not racists.  And Michal is again right by giving other examples from history of a an ethnic group adopting another name.    I can add to the list the Bulgarians, another Slavic ethnic group.  The Bulgars were a Turkic tribe of Central Asia who came to the Balkans in the 7th century.  The Bulgars were outnumbered by the Slavic population.
  Ethnic groups "self-identify" and if the Macedonian Slavs want to called themselves Macedonians  and now have a country they call Macedonia there is nothing the Greeks can do about it.  One of my professors at the University of Toronto was Prof. Andrew Rossos (Russian history) and he was Macedonian & told us of Macedonians who had needles stuck in their tongues by Greeks because they spoke Macedonian in the old days.
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2013, 08:54:07 PM »

The mistake many people make is classifying Macedonians as Slavs. Slavic is not an ethnicity, the Greeks use so they can claim only they have the right to Aegean Macedonia. It was never about history that was just a nice bonus to them it is all about the land.

Greeks claim Macedonians are Greek or they dont exist.

Bulgarians claim Macedonians are Bulgarian brothers.

Serbs claimed that Macedonians were South Serbs.

How can the Macedonians be all these things but at the same time not exist or something that is even more absurd is be created in a lab by Tito.

How paranoid do you have to be to make up such propaganda.

The churches should have been the shining light of reason but instead lurked behind the shadow doing the devils bidding.
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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 10:04:24 PM »

If the Greek Orthodox Church in Greece acts like this towards both the MOC and the Ochrid Archbishopric, and to the Macedonian people, then the position of non-Greeks in the GOAA is also terrible. I would just release Archbishop Jovan, have him head the Macedonian Orthodox Church (re-form the Ochrid Archbishopric as an autonomous, and later an autocephalous church if needed). Racism or ethnocentrism is not appropriate for Orthodox of any stripe. I don't care if you are Russians, Greeks, Serbians, or extraterrestrials, but can't we all get along?
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2013, 04:00:59 AM »

what is a macedonian? a larper?

 police police police police police

i hear a green dot

or red
 
or whatever dots they give out

(PS, how about those balkans just quit fighting and unite under a new roman empire and remove some kebab)
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 04:14:31 AM »

(PS, how about those balkans just quit fighting and unite under a new roman empire and remove some kebab)

The chances of the Balkan uniting in another Greek Empire are rather slim.
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2013, 04:53:05 AM »

(PS, how about those balkans just quit fighting and unite under a new roman empire and remove some kebab)

The chances of the Balkan uniting in another Greek Empire are rather slim.

There has never been a Greek empire.

If it is not a big deal for Macedonia to change its name, then it shouldnt be a problem for Greece or any other Balkan nation to do the same.

Why can Greece hold onto a name that does not belong top them but Macedonians cant use their own name.

Why doesnt Greece just change its name to Macedonia since they are obsessed with it.
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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 05:05:41 AM »

(PS, how about those balkans just quit fighting and unite under a new roman empire and remove some kebab)

The chances of the Balkan uniting in another Greek Empire are rather slim.

There has never been a Greek empire.

There have been several. The Empire of Alexander the Great, for example.

Why can Greece hold onto a name that does not belong top them but Macedonians cant use their own name.

It does belong to Greece. Macedonians are Greek and have always been Greek. The Skopians are imposters who usurped not only Greek but Bulgarian heritage as well. And then the Skopians wonder why all their neighbours hate them.

Why doesnt Greece just change its name to Macedonia since they are obsessed with it.

Because Macedonia is only one of the regions of Greece.
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« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 05:46:26 AM »

Personally, I don't care much what the inhabitants of the Former Yugoslav Republic wish to call themselves or their country, but the Greeks have a legitimate grievance and to dismiss it as simple racism is rather simplistic. Looking at the map, a greater area of Macedonia lies within Greece than in FYROM.

However, I don't particularly care for the way in which the Church tries to get involved in a national/ethnic dispute between two Orthodox peoples. The creation of a non-canonical Macedonian Church is a concern for the Serbian Orthodox Church, not the churches of Greece or Cyprus.
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« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 06:43:59 AM »

That's nonsense.

The Ancient Macedonians weren't Slavs and did not speak a Slavic language. FYROMians have nothing to do with the Macedonia of Philip II or Alexander.


Replace Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Britain, Slavic with Germanic, Greek with Celtic, and Phillip II with King Arthur, you have the story of Great Britain. You don't see the Welsh getting all butthurt about the Anglo-Saxons claiming to be British do you?

The Welsh would be up in arms if Shropshire started calling itself 'Wales'.

It doesn't help that, during the first years of FYROM independence, there were maps going around marking the new country's borders down to the Thermaic Gulf. As they didn't include the entire historical Macedonia area, the gesture was taken as a first expansionist claim and treated accordingly.
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« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2013, 09:35:42 AM »

Personally, I don't care much what the inhabitants of the Former Yugoslav Republic wish to call themselves or their country, but the Greeks have a legitimate grievance and to dismiss it as simple racism is rather simplistic. Looking at the map, a greater area of Macedonia lies within Greece than in FYROM.

However, I don't particularly care for the way in which the Church tries to get involved in a national/ethnic dispute between two Orthodox peoples. The creation of a non-canonical Macedonian Church is a concern for the Serbian Orthodox Church, not the churches of Greece or Cyprus.

But that begs a larger question, and one which has vexed Orthodoxy for centuries. The sort of game playing,  squabbling and open hostilities which these disputes give rise to creates many problems within the  greater (don't insert a nationality) Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy has never resolved how to deal with them in the absence of a strong imperial presence. Obviously the model chosen by the West is incorrect, but inertia and side-picking seems not to work either.
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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2013, 09:53:55 AM »

Well, the real Macedonia IS in Greece. FYROM is extremely guilty of ethnophyletism and nationalism. Just look at their current uncanonical status. You don't just unilaterally declare independence from another Orthodox Church, ESPECIALLY if its because you think because you have your own nation that you deserve your own church.

It should have stayed with the Serbian Church until it was granted autocephaly.

As for FYROM itself, it's just one more example of the sad trend of nationalism in post-communist lands.
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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2013, 10:24:33 AM »

That's nonsense.

The Ancient Macedonians weren't Slavs and did not speak a Slavic language. FYROMians have nothing to do with the Macedonia of Philip II or Alexander.


Replace Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Britain, Slavic with Germanic, Greek with Celtic, and Phillip II with King Arthur, you have the story of Great Britain. You don't see the Welsh getting all butthurt about the Anglo-Saxons claiming to be British do you?

The Welsh would be up in arms if Shropshire started calling itself 'Wales'.

It doesn't help that, during the first years of FYROM independence, there were maps going around marking the new country's borders down to the Thermaic Gulf. As they didn't include the entire historical Macedonia area, the gesture was taken as a first expansionist claim and treated accordingly.

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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2013, 11:37:42 AM »

As for FYROM itself, it's just one more example of the sad trend of nationalism in post-communist lands.

Greece a post-communist land?
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2013, 12:26:47 PM »

As for FYROM itself, it's just one more example of the sad trend of nationalism in post-communist lands.

Greece a post-communist land?
No, but FYROM is. The country was established as the "Autonomous Republic of Macedonia" by Tito in 1946, one of the 6 constituent republics of Socialist Yugoslavia. By creating a "Macedonian" ethnicity, language, and state, the Yugoslavian government had two objectives:
1) To remove any Bulgarian influence or aspiration for this region - because undoubtedly the Bulgarian presence in that area was quite strong and pro-Bulgarian tendencies were powerful, and
2) to unite Macedonia as a whole-that is, not only the Yugoslavian part of it, but also the Greek part and the Bulgarian part, a connecting link in establishing a "Socialist Federation of the Balkan peoples" (sic). What we're witnessing today in the region, are the "remnants" of the Greek civil war & the communist attempt in the '40's to create a "Balkan Federation of Socialist Peoples" (The Bled Protocols, 10th session of the Bulgarian Communist Party, August 1946, the Tito-Dimitrov meeting).
BTW, the first "premier" of the new Socialist republic of "Macedonia" was Dimitar Vlahov, who had been an outspoken Bulgarian during the first decade of the 20th century, was an elected Bulgarian delegate to the Ottoman Parliament, became leader of the "IMRO-United" (known as VMRO or BMPO in Cyrillic) in 1925, and in 1946 declared himself an "original Macedonian" (sic).

Also if I may ask, who's the racist here, since our northern neighbours are the true, "ancient Macedonians", with clean blood stream, the Übermenschen of the region, while us poor Greeks are the Untermenschen, because-if you don't know it, please be aware that, we're of...sub-Saharan origin?

Original study of the University of Skopje for the Sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks

And just to make it clear (to avoid misconception or misunderstanding):
Personally, I could never argue that ancient Greeks are the direct ancestors of today's Greeks in a biological sense; that the Greeks of 21st century, are directly descended from the ancient Greeks of 5th or 4th century BC, genetically. A blond pure-blooded Greek, existed only in the imagination of the Nazi party. I don't give a...you know what, if my ancestor was a Nordic German, or a Negroid Sub-Saharan. We're not defined as a nation from a pure blood stream, but from an unbroken cultural history and tradition (with biggest proof, the inhabitation of the same territory by Greek-speaking people for millenia). This concept of "Greekness" as a cultural identity and not a biological one, has been a common one since the 4th century BC, already expressed by Isocrates:
"The name Greek is no longer a mark of a race, but of an outlook, and is accorded to those who share our culture rather than our blood" (in Greek: "Καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὄνομα πεποίηκε μηκέτι τοῦ γένους ἀλλά τῆς διανοίας δοκεῖν εἶναι, καὶ μᾶλλον Ἕλληνας καλεῖσθαι τούς τῆς παιδεύσεως τῆς ἡμετέρας ἤ τοὺς τῆς κοινῆς φύσεως μετέχοντας").
(E.g. for Isocrates, Cyrillic is clearly a Greek, deep down inside he knows it, now he just has to admit it)
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« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2013, 10:44:54 PM »

As for FYROM itself, it's just one more example of the sad trend of nationalism in post-communist lands.

Greece a post-communist land?
No, but FYROM is. The country was established as the "Autonomous Republic of Macedonia" by Tito in 1946, one of the 6 constituent republics of Socialist Yugoslavia. By creating a "Macedonian" ethnicity, language, and state, the Yugoslavian government had two objectives:
1) To remove any Bulgarian influence or aspiration for this region - because undoubtedly the Bulgarian presence in that area was quite strong and pro-Bulgarian tendencies were powerful, and
2) to unite Macedonia as a whole-that is, not only the Yugoslavian part of it, but also the Greek part and the Bulgarian part, a connecting link in establishing a "Socialist Federation of the Balkan peoples" (sic). What we're witnessing today in the region, are the "remnants" of the Greek civil war & the communist attempt in the '40's to create a "Balkan Federation of Socialist Peoples" (The Bled Protocols, 10th session of the Bulgarian Communist Party, August 1946, the Tito-Dimitrov meeting).
BTW, the first "premier" of the new Socialist republic of "Macedonia" was Dimitar Vlahov, who had been an outspoken Bulgarian during the first decade of the 20th century, was an elected Bulgarian delegate to the Ottoman Parliament, became leader of the "IMRO-United" (known as VMRO or BMPO in Cyrillic) in 1925, and in 1946 declared himself an "original Macedonian" (sic).

Also if I may ask, who's the racist here, since our northern neighbours are the true, "ancient Macedonians", with clean blood stream, the Übermenschen of the region, while us poor Greeks are the Untermenschen, because-if you don't know it, please be aware that, we're of...sub-Saharan origin?

Original study of the University of Skopje for the Sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks

And just to make it clear (to avoid misconception or misunderstanding):
Personally, I could never argue that ancient Greeks are the direct ancestors of today's Greeks in a biological sense; that the Greeks of 21st century, are directly descended from the ancient Greeks of 5th or 4th century BC, genetically. A blond pure-blooded Greek, existed only in the imagination of the Nazi party. I don't give a...you know what, if my ancestor was a Nordic German, or a Negroid Sub-Saharan. We're not defined as a nation from a pure blood stream, but from an unbroken cultural history and tradition (with biggest proof, the inhabitation of the same territory by Greek-speaking people for millenia). This concept of "Greekness" as a cultural identity and not a biological one, has been a common one since the 4th century BC, already expressed by Isocrates:
"The name Greek is no longer a mark of a race, but of an outlook, and is accorded to those who share our culture rather than our blood" (in Greek: "Καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὄνομα πεποίηκε μηκέτι τοῦ γένους ἀλλά τῆς διανοίας δοκεῖν εἶναι, καὶ μᾶλλον Ἕλληνας καλεῖσθαι τούς τῆς παιδεύσεως τῆς ἡμετέρας ἤ τοὺς τῆς κοινῆς φύσεως μετέχοντας").
(E.g. for Isocrates, Cyrillic is clearly a Greek, deep down inside he knows it, now he just has to admit it)

And Greece is still a fascist dictatorship

Golden Dawn Wants Dictator Metaxas’ Statue in Kefalonia

The neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party has visited the island of Kefalonia and asked Mayor Alexandros Parisis to help them restore and preserve the statue of the late Greek dictator Ioannis Metaxas which had been dumped in the countryside...

(Source: nocomments.gr, Greek school book of History for the 3rd grade of Lyceum)

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/09/12/golden-dawn-wants-dictator-metaxas-statue-in-kefalonia/
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When linking news articles/stories, please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.

post editted - MK
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2013, 05:24:20 AM »

What Golden Dawn wants is not the law of the land.

And Greece is still a fascist dictatorship

Please take your slander elsewhere, thanks.
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2013, 05:29:39 AM »

And Greece is still a fascist dictatorship

Countries that have prisoners of conscience shouldn't call other countries fascist dictatorships.
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2013, 01:04:34 AM »

Greeks will always use the Slav card. Greece was not spared from this invasion and Greeks today are more Slav Albanian than anything else.




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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2013, 04:56:22 AM »

You do realise that the Slavs were partly expelled to Asia and that Greece was recolonised by Asian Greeks?
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2013, 07:22:18 AM »

Nice to see some people are still devoted to Fallmerayer's theories. Not.
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2013, 08:19:20 AM »

Greeks will always use the Slav card. Greece was not spared from this invasion and Greeks today are more Slav Albanian than anything else.





And?
Your point being?
If we're indeed Slavs,or Albanians, or sub-Saharans, or Mongoloids, then?
Does that make us untermenschen, while you our true-original-authentic-pure-blooded ancient "Macedonian" neighbours to the north are the Übermenschen in the region?
Do you realize how stupid your arguments sound?
[Taken from an older post of mine during a similar discussion]:
During the 6th and 7th centuries A.D., some Slavic groups moved towards the southern areas and settled in the Greek territories, where they formed Slavic enclaves - named "Sklavinies-Σκλαβινίες" by Byzantine sources, especially in west Macedonia and Thessaly. Being cultivators and cattle breeders, they settled mainly on mountain slopes, less often in the plains and very rarely near the sea, as can be ascertained from toponymic material.
For slavic toponyms, see the basic work by M. Vasmer, "The Slavs in Greece", Berlin 1941, pp. 176-229
 A basic policy of the Byzantine administration to overcome this problem, was a demographic measure, the forcible transfer of populations. By transferring Slavic populations to Asia Minor, the Byzantine empire achieved two things:
1) on one hand the Slavic element in the Greek area was weakened, and on the other hand assimilation was facilitated, since Slavs who were transferred to Asia Minor found themselves amidst a flourishing and numerous Greek population. But this demographic measure was even applied vice-versa, thus,
2) Greek populations from Asia Minor were transplanted into Slavic populations ("ἐπὶ τάς σκλαβινίας") in order to reinforce the Greek element in these areas. So we learn, that emperor Nicephorus I (802-811) established in the northern Greek area populations which he transferred from all administrative districts ("ἐκ παντός θέματος") of Asia Minor.
The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers (Washington D.C., August 3-8, 1986) New York 1986, pp. 345-367
We find out, therefore, that the Byzantine state followed a realistic and consistent policy in order to cope with the problem of Slavic settlers, a policy that led to the control and integration of Slavic races by the empire. In this way the Byzantine state contributed decisively to their assimilation by the indigenous population and to their Hellenization.
 Now let's move to ethnography:
 1) The almost total lack of remnants of Slavic civilization (burial customs, dwellings, techniques and types of ceramics) testifies to this assimilation, which of course, could never have been achieved without the presence of an indigenous Greek population.
 2) The whole culture and artistic production of the area was purely Greek and greatly influenced SE Europe during the years of the Ottoman domination.
The main characteristics of the culture of the Slavs during the first period of their settlement in the Balkan Peninsula are:
a) the burning of the dead,
b) the hand-made ceramics with certain shapes and decorations, and
c) their half-underground hut for dwelling.
However, except for two rare exceptions (15 urns containing the ashes of the dead and some vases), no indisputably Slavic objects have been found on Greek soil.
 As Paul Lemerle writes, "Byzantium christianized, civilized and assimilated these Slavs, making them Greeks. And this is one of the most impressive victories of the Greek genius"
P. Lemerle, "La Chronique improprement dite de Monemvasie: le commentaire historique et legendaire", Revue des Etudes Byzantines 21 (1963), p. 49
 So, by the 9th century AD, the Slavs living in N.Greece, are completely assimilated by the more prosperous and culturally more developed indigenous Greeks.
For the Arvanites (and not Albanians) I won't even bother giving an aswer.
Please do not continue these stupid theses, they don't stand a chance before a trained historian or ethnognapher.
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2013, 08:09:09 PM »

Apostolos do you see how stupid it is for you to hang onto a name that is not yours. Putting Greek in front of everything doesnt make it Greek.

Fact: Did you know that Lebanese cucumbers are in fact from Greece, the seeds are Greeks.

So the Slavs were expelled from Greece and reclaimed by the Pure Greeks.

You are telling me that I am delusional and claim purity with my ancestors yet you are doing the same thing. Hypocrite.

Ps it is stupid to claim that anyone is pure only the Greeks do this.

It seems everyone wants to be Macedonian.
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« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2013, 05:10:31 PM »

Apostolos do you see how stupid it is for you to hang onto a name that is not yours.

Says a FYROMian. LOL.
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« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2013, 09:44:44 PM »

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level.  Tongue
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« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2013, 07:46:24 PM »

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level.  Tongue

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee

But if you ask a Greek they will say they have an unbroken chain between their ancestors.

I had a Greek come up to me once who said "The sky is blue and the clouds are white, therefore God is Greek", Zimi Majka (I swear on my mother) that this happened.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are, this includes the Bulgarians and a few Philhellene's.

If Alexander I was a Philhellene and according to Greeks he was Greeks that would make him a Greek who is a friend of the Greeks? 
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« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2013, 07:58:30 PM »

You can see from their posts the type of people they are, this includes the Bulgarians and a few Philhellene's.

What type of people are the Greeks?

If Alexander I was a Philhellene and according to Greeks he was Greeks that would make him a Greek who is a friend of the Greeks?

From Liddle and Scott:

φιλ-έλλην , ηνος, ὁ, ἡ,

A. fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis, Hdt.2.178, cf. Plu.Ant.23; of Parthian kings, BMus.Cat.Coins, Parthia p.14, etc.; “φ. Ἀρσάκης” PAvrom.1A2 (i B. C.); also of Nero, SIG814.41 (Acraephiae, i A. D.); also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5.122: generally of Hellenic patriots, Pl.R.470e; of Hippocrates, Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; “καλὸν Ἕλληνα ὄντα φιλέλληνα εἶναι” X.Ages.7.4; μᾶλλον φ. ib.2.31, Isoc.4.96; μάλιστα φ., of the subjects of Evagoras, Id.9.50; coupled with φιλοβασιλεύς, Com.Adesp. in Gött.Nachr.1922.31.
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« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2013, 06:06:10 AM »

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

'Greek yogurt' is an accepted international trade designation for strained yogurt.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee without flavourings

Fixed that for you.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are

Sober, well informed and avoiding slander. Yep.
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« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2013, 11:18:05 PM »

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

'Greek yogurt' is an accepted international trade designation for strained yogurt.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee without flavourings

Fixed that for you.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are

Sober, well informed and avoiding slander. Yep.


You think your the only country in the Balkans that makes yogurt this way.

Macedonians drink coffee without flavoring too so do Bulgarians and Serbians, the only difference is we don't put our name before the coffee.

Quote
From Liddle and Scott:

φιλ-έλλην , ηνος, ὁ, ἡ,

A. fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis, Hdt.2.178, cf. Plu.Ant.23; of Parthian kings, BMus.Cat.Coins, Parthia p.14, etc.; “φ. Ἀρσάκης” PAvrom.1A2 (i B. C.); also of Nero, SIG814.41 (Acraephiae, i A. D.); also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5.122: generally of Hellenic patriots, Pl.R.470e; of Hippocrates, Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; “καλὸν Ἕλληνα ὄντα φιλέλληνα εἶναι” X.Ages.7.4; μᾶλλον φ. ib.2.31, Isoc.4.96; μάλιστα φ., of the subjects of Evagoras, Id.9.50; coupled with φιλοβασιλεύς, Com.Adesp. in Gött.Nachr.1922.31.

This explains nothing.
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« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2013, 06:10:02 AM »

You will notice that the Greeks think everything is theirs, yogurt cannot simply be yogurt. It has to be Greek yogurt because for some reason they do something different to the rest of us.

'Greek yogurt' is an accepted international trade designation for strained yogurt.

Greek coffee = Turkish coffee without flavourings

Fixed that for you.

You can see from their posts the type of people they are

Sober, well informed and avoiding slander. Yep.


You think your the only country in the Balkans that makes yogurt this way.

Take it up with international trade unions.
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« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2013, 06:12:10 AM »

Quote
From Liddle and Scott:

φιλ-έλλην , ηνος, ὁ, ἡ,

A. fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes, as Amasis, Hdt.2.178, cf. Plu.Ant.23; of Parthian kings, BMus.Cat.Coins, Parthia p.14, etc.; “φ. Ἀρσάκης” PAvrom.1A2 (i B. C.); also of Nero, SIG814.41 (Acraephiae, i A. D.); also of Hellenic tyrants, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5.122: generally of Hellenic patriots, Pl.R.470e; of Hippocrates, Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; “καλὸν Ἕλληνα ὄντα φιλέλληνα εἶναι” X.Ages.7.4; μᾶλλον φ. ib.2.31, Isoc.4.96; μάλιστα φ., of the subjects of Evagoras, Id.9.50; coupled with φιλοβασιλεύς, Com.Adesp. in Gött.Nachr.1922.31.

This explains nothing.

It does. "Also of Hellenic tyrans, as Jason of Pherae, Isoc. 5. 122"
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2013, 04:40:30 PM »

I posted a little on the Slavs in Macedonia around Thessalonica:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36505.msg581466.html#msg581466
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« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2013, 07:06:50 PM »

My mom and I are generally not racist.
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« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2013, 07:40:18 PM »

My mom and I are generally not racist.

 Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2013, 10:18:59 PM »

Has anyone else noticed what may be a trend? -  "Greek" diners in New Jersey actually being run by Pakistanis? Is nothing sacred anymore?  Wink

Actually I did see on a Lemko facebook page that in Canada one may now buy pierogi flavored potato chips, so I suppose that answers my question.... Grin
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« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2013, 05:41:01 AM »

Well I have some questions for you:
1)Why the ancient Macedonians had greek names?
2)Why the ancient Macedonians believed in the gods of Hellas?
3)Why the ancient Macedonians write with greek script?
4)Why the ancient Macedonians participated in the Olympic games while allowing only for the greeks?
5)Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same customs with the ancient greeks?
6)Why the ancient Macedonians believed that kings are descendants of the greek hero Heracles, as the greek dorians?
7) Why the ancient Macedonian kings say it is greeks, and come from the royal house of Argos in Peloponnese?
8 ) Why the ancient Macedonians were taking part in amfiktionia (conference) of Delphi, while allowing only greeks?
9) Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same holy symbols with the greeks?
10)why the Ancient Macedonians spoke Ancient Greek language ?

edited the "8 )" smiley.
-Cyrillic

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« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2013, 06:14:11 AM »

8 ) Why the ancient Macedonians were taking part in amfiktionia (conference) of Delphi, while allowing only greeks?

Because the Macedonians had exterminated the Phocians in 346 BC, thus leaving their seats in the council empty. Philip's hirelings, like Aeschines, proposed that the Macedonians, who before that date weren't represented in the council, should take those seats. Shortly thereafter the Macedonians used the Amphictyonic Council to get past Thermopylae and take Elateia, prompting war with Athens and Thebes which culminated in the Battle of Chaeronea.

You're right about the rest though.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:41:20 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2013, 09:21:25 AM »

Oops I didn't know that...  Shocked
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« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2013, 09:39:58 AM »

Has anyone else noticed what may be a trend? -  "Greek" diners in New Jersey actually being run by Pakistanis? Is nothing sacred anymore?  Wink

Actually I did see on a Lemko facebook page that in Canada one may now buy pierogi flavored potato chips, so I suppose that answers my question.... Grin
Hey, perogies as a topping on pizza has been around for years in Canada.
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« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2013, 12:08:08 AM »

Well I have some questions for you:
1)Why the ancient Macedonians had greek names?
2)Why the ancient Macedonians believed in the gods of Hellas?
3)Why the ancient Macedonians write with greek script?
4)Why the ancient Macedonians participated in the Olympic games while allowing only for the greeks?
5)Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same customs with the ancient greeks?
6)Why the ancient Macedonians believed that kings are descendants of the greek hero Heracles, as the greek dorians?
7) Why the ancient Macedonian kings say it is greeks, and come from the royal house of Argos in Peloponnese?
8 ) Why the ancient Macedonians were taking part in amfiktionia (conference) of Delphi, while allowing only greeks?
9) Why the Ancient Macedonians had the same holy symbols with the greeks?
10)why the Ancient Macedonians spoke Ancient Greek language ?

edited the "8 )" smiley.
-Cyrillic



I have some questions for you too.

Why was French spoken in Russian courts?
Why are the Greek Gods the same as Egyptian and Roman Gods?
Why is English a global language?
Why do Greeks have the same customs as Turkish people?
Why do Greeks claim Macedonian symbols?
Why does everything have to originate from Greece? eg. Vasili's Gardens mother made a comment when she was making Greek salad (LOL) that all the ingredients are Greek even Lebanese cucumbers because the seeds are from Greece. The next day they went back to community TV.
Why is Zorba the Greek buried in Skopje and not Athens?
Why is it that Greeks are the only ones who have an unbroken line to their ancient ancestors forgetting the Roman empire, Byzantine empire, the supposed Slav invasion and the Ottoman Turks?
Why is it that Greeks like to put Hellass sounding names on every ancient person? eg. King Porus (supposed Greek) from Sanskrit: पुरुषोत्तम Purushottama
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« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2013, 06:43:28 AM »

Why does everything have to originate from Greece? eg. Vasili's Gardens mother made a comment when she was making Greek salad (LOL) that all the ingredients are Greek even Lebanese cucumbers because the seeds are from Greece. The next day they went back to community TV.

You forgot kimono.
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« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2013, 07:28:49 AM »

Why was French spoken in Russian courts?

Because emperors like Peter and Catherine were either Western themselves or westernised and wanted the same for their country. French was the language of culture and commerce all over Europe at the time.

Why are the Greek Gods the same as Egyptian

They aren't.

and Roman Gods?

Because the Romans were very heavily influenced by Hellenic thought and culture, and conflated their old Latin and Etruscan gods with the Hellene ones.

Why is English a global language?

Because until not so long ago the British Empire owned nearly half the world.

Why do Greeks have the same customs as Turkish people?

You can't coexist for five centuries without cultural osmosis.

Why do Greeks claim Macedonian symbols?

I assume you mean ancient Macedonian symbols, and that's because ancient Macedonians were part of the Hellenic states. If Slavs, who didn't exist at the time, can claim those symbols, so can Greeks.

Why does everything have to originate from Greece? eg. Vasili's Gardens mother made a comment when she was making Greek salad (LOL) that all the ingredients are Greek even Lebanese cucumbers because the seeds are from Greece. The next day they went back to community TV.

A lot of what is taken for granted in the Western world today was invented by the ancient Hellenes. Being cutesy about someone's silly claims isn't helping your cause.

Why is Zorba the Greek buried in Skopje and not Athens?

Because that's where he died, duh.

Why is it that Greeks are the only ones who have an unbroken line to their ancient ancestors forgetting the Roman empire, Byzantine empire, the supposed Slav invasion and the Ottoman Turks?

No Greeks claim genetic purity. They just reject the (discredited) claim that there is no genetic connection between ancient Hellenes and modern Greeks.

Why is it that Greeks like to put Hellass sounding names on every ancient person? eg. King Porus (supposed Greek) from Sanskrit: पुरुषोत्तम Purushottama

All languages translate or adapt proper names and placenames. You know, like Skopjans say Александар instead of Αλέξανδρος.

Were any of those questions relevant to the subject of the thread, or are you just indulging in mudslinging?
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« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2013, 08:13:21 AM »

...
Why do Greeks claim Macedonian symbols?
...

Actually the so called "Macedonian" symbol is in reality an Argive one (Argos is a town in the Peloponnese, somewhere on the thumb of the hand-like peninsula in southern Greece), for the first Macedonian dynasty of Argeads (duh) claimed descent from the Argive royal house of Temenids. Read Herodotus, he narrates how the three brothers Gauanes, Aeropus, and Perdiccas fled from Argos to Macedonia, and how Perdiccas became eventually Perdiccas I, the first Argead King of Macedon.
Check out the krater below: Tydeus of Calydon and Polynices of Thebes meet at Argos and fight (Aeschylus' The Seven Against Thebes is a dramatization of their story). What are those pesky Argive symbols depicted on the city's gates, I wonder?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 08:14:28 AM by Apostolos » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2013, 04:24:23 PM »

The vergina sun existed much before teh Macedonian kingdom was found. vergina sun was used more rare by other Greeks.
Your questions were answered above but now answer the ones I made to you.
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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2013, 09:49:59 AM »

It's obvious that el maco aka pravoslaven bigmacen is a troll who's sole purpose is to push his anti Greek agenda.

Frankly speaking I'm surprised the mods have kept this thread open.
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2013, 11:50:47 AM »

Frankly speaking I'm surprised the mods have kept this thread open.

Why should mods support anti-Macedonian agenda?
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2013, 12:39:16 PM »

the supposed Slav invasion

LOL.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 12:39:26 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2013, 01:04:15 PM »

The name of a country is directly linked to their ethnicity. Are you saying if Italy changes its name that the people would still be considered Italian?

And yet there is no single, distinct ethnicity corresponding to "American" (You mean Euro-Americans? Latinos? African-Americans?), "Ethiopian" (Semites/Habeshi? Cushites?), "Afghan" (Pashtuns? Hazaras? Uzbeks?), "Iraqi" (Assyrians? Arabs? Kurds? Tajiks?), etc. The phenomenon of "name of country = ethnicity" is a quintessentially European idea, and rather modern at that.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 01:07:14 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2013, 01:10:27 PM »

Quite a few countries have many different ethnicities. Also, the borders of a country can change for any number of reasons, thus taking in more ethnic groups. So although some places are named for their most numerous ethnic group, others aren't.
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« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2013, 01:20:57 PM »

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level.  Tongue

This is my favorite post of the thread.

As an aside, the most disturbing part of this thread is the stupid "e" in the title at the end of Racism.  My OCD is in overdrive and I want it fixed!  Angry
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« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2013, 01:23:45 PM »

It would have been okay to spell it "racisme" if the entire post were in French, because that's how they spell it.  Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2013, 01:30:14 PM »

I don't see anything wrong about the title of this thread  Huh
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« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2013, 01:33:28 PM »

I don't see anything wrong about the title of this thread  Huh

That's because sneaky Dutchman has been sneaky. Cool
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« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2013, 01:34:23 PM »

Oh Snap!  It has been fixed.  My day just got infinitely better.  Grin
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« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2013, 01:47:09 PM »

Wow. Just this morning I had an existential crisis on whether my Irish family was truly Irish or actually Anglo-Saxon. I have to say, this makes my personal angst on a much smaller level.  Tongue

This is my favorite post of the thread.

As an aside, the most disturbing part of this thread is the stupid "e" in the title at the end of Racism.  My OCD is in overdrive and I want it fixed!  Angry

I know! I keep pronouncing it "rah-sees-muh" in my head until I realize the rest of the title is in English.

Edit: Kept the fixed title instead.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 01:47:36 PM by sheenj » Logged
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