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Author Topic: Harry Potter and Witchcraft  (Read 25330 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #585 on: August 18, 2013, 01:36:02 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.

I sense larping.

Larping, please means what? Even the auto-spell check appears not to recognise this word, tks.

Live action role-playing
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« Reply #586 on: August 18, 2013, 01:40:29 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.

I sense larping.

Larping, please means what? Even the auto-spell check appears not to recognise this word, tks.

Live action role-playing

And I am not one wit wiser, sorry. Suspect that it is some useless social construct that advances the art of communication to precisely nowhere.

Thank you for spelling out the nonsensical phrase. laugh
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« Reply #587 on: August 18, 2013, 02:54:07 PM »

Ebor.  Well, first I would say that there is not a monolithic bloc of "the Reformers" and by that are you referring particularly to the 15th and 16th centuries or there abouts?  It is true that, for example, John Calvin and those with him in Geneva removed art and beauty and other things that might contribute to wonder from both church and daily life. Savonarola did much the same in Florence.  But that was not the case in England particularly in the growth of church music or if you consider the writings of John Donne or George Herbert.
DanM.  Music should be excluded from this discussion, since everyone seems to want nice music.  One of the very most beautiful little tunes I have ever heard was an oyster-selling song from way-back when.  Even England had waves of iconoclasm directed against religious art--three, if I am not mistaken.   

Ebor.  There is more to "western" Christianity than the sermons and studies. 
DanM.  Let's keep score.  When I was growing up, I could (1) go to Sunday school for Bible study or churchy study, (2) attend church to hear a sermon, (3) join in youth group activities, which combined fun things (sportsy stuff) with Biblical & churchy studies, (4) attend quasi-revivalist summer camps, where we did a lot of Bible and churchy studies, (5) read Christian books of all sorts, including Biblical commentaries and churchy stuff.  Most of this is talking, reading or listening.
Now I can (1) attend liturgy & other services, (2) visit the relics of saints, (3) read the lives of saints, (4) pray using akathists, canons etc., (5) light incense, (6) pray before icons, (7) see the occasional miracle & hear about others etc.  This longer list involves all senses & invariably entails experiences of wonder.

My guess is that the generic Protestant list reflects the concerns of the Reformers:  they rejected all Catholic superstitious activities in order to concentrate on the Bible and what they perceived as the fundamental facts arising therefrom (that these facts of salvation tended to come from St. Augustine's playbook is something to discuss elsewhere).  Their scholarly background set the tone for their followers.

Ebor.  May one ask which churches were your early experience?  If you would prefer not to say, I withdraw the question with apologies.
DanM.  Mais oui!  United Methodist, Free Methodist and (when my father joined the Army) generic Protestant.
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« Reply #588 on: August 18, 2013, 02:55:39 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
And yes Cinderella can also be harmful like Harry Potter.

I admire your consistency.  In that case, you at least have a principled position.
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« Reply #589 on: August 18, 2013, 03:03:08 PM »

S'Dad.  The polarisation looking back appears to me to stem from entrenched viewpoints and a combative approach rather than a specifically Christian approach. The Holy Apostle Paul's words on Love come to mind.
DanM #1.  IMHO, polarisation often stems from the conviction that one's intuition is self-evidently true:  like a good axiom, one has only to apprehend it mentally to grasp its verity.  I do not wish to downplay intuition, but I do want to remember that intuition is not the only belief-generating mechanism; we also have perception, feelings and reason.  The job of reason is in this view to some extent that of corroborating or disconfirming an intuition.  Argumentation allows reason to do this.  If everyone (and here I am thinking much more widely than this forum) used truth-seeking devices to make decisions, polarisation would be eliminated.
DanM #2.  And now I have to disagree with myself.  I think polarisation is inevitable when intuition is regarded as the only required belief-generating mechanism, so that truth-seeking devices, even curiosity about others' opinions, appear to be superfluous at best and harmful at worst.
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« Reply #590 on: August 18, 2013, 03:07:17 PM »

On this point:

Quote
4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion

I think that looking at this would involve such things in history as the rise of literacy, the printing press (recalling the fact that for a very long time every copy of anything was written out by hand), the collection of stories perhaps (the Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault in France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrault  and others) the state of society and more.  There were certainly plenty of lives of the saints and stories about them in western Christendom. And there was a tradition of literature in some form or other.  Consider Beowulf, the various Sagas and Gesta.  What was the literary tradition/culture in the Byzantine times?  Different cultures have different customs and that may have an affect on the lack of narrative literature.  Or it occurs to me, did it not survive the ages and warfare and more perhaps?

Just some thoughts for consideration


My thesis does not deny that the West had saints' lives, but that the East did not produce various sagas, epics, etc.  I suspect that the culture of the East (I mean, Eastern Roman Empire) was inhibited by its very inheritance--Homer, e.g.  The barbarians who blundered into the West were not over-awed by Homer or Vergil--they probably did not know about them and anyway were too busy recording their own tales.  I do not recall barbarians in the East recording their stories in Greek.  The East was not even that interested in Latin literature.  Someone did translate De Bello Gallico into Greek, but that was probably for practical purposes.  I appreciate your thoughts and questions.  Theses are not or should not be made of adamantine; they should be more like nerf balls.

Georgian Epic--The Man in the Panther's Skin by Shota Rustavelli
Russian Epic--The Lay of Igor's Campaign
I believe there's also a Serbian epic or three
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« Reply #591 on: August 18, 2013, 03:12:02 PM »

_The Way of the Pilgrim_, a book written in a state hostile to Orthodoxy, in a century that saw the birth of Darwin and Marx, is simply a coruscation of wonder after wonder.

I concur trarist Russia had negative impact on the Orthodox Church but I can't really call it  as hostile.

I am thinking of the embargo on Old Church Slavonic--the forced Jesuitification of the seminaries--the restriction of candidates for the priesthood to the sons of priests--the abolition of the patriarchate of Moscow--the prohibition of monasticism to all but widowed priests and such--the invention of the office of the Ober-Prokurator to superintend the churches--etc.  See Fr. Tom Hopko lectures on this at AFR and Jeffrey MacDonald's lectures on Russia at http://www.orthodoxchurchhistory.com/.

Eh, the 18th century was a very short time, and still had saints and productive spiritual literature. Monasteries were still founded. There were still hermits and holy fools, etc. And then came the 19th century renaissance, which, if you think of it, was more spiritually productive in terms of saints and writings and foundations than probably the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries combined given all the upheaval--Judaisers, Raskol'niki, Possessors vs. Non-Possessors.
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« Reply #592 on: August 18, 2013, 03:12:50 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.

They're called Byzantines even by the Greeks.

By some Greeks. Er, or Hellenes.
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« Reply #593 on: August 18, 2013, 03:38:52 PM »

Ebor.  Well, first I would say that there is not a monolithic bloc of "the Reformers" and by that are you referring particularly to the 15th and 16th centuries or there abouts?  It is true that, for example, John Calvin and those with him in Geneva removed art and beauty and other things that might contribute to wonder from both church and daily life. Savonarola did much the same in Florence.  But that was not the case in England particularly in the growth of church music or if you consider the writings of John Donne or George Herbert.
DanM.  Music should be excluded from this discussion, since everyone seems to want nice music.  One of the very most beautiful little tunes I have ever heard was an oyster-selling song from way-back when.  Even England had waves of iconoclasm directed against religious art--three, if I am not mistaken. 

I'm afraid that I would not agree that music should be excluded as for one thing it comes in many forms and kinds, some simple, some complex, pieces that can transport one to another place or do other things. There can be wonder in music.  And to be slightly cranky about the subject, some church music is not "nice" at least to some people.  There have been modern pieces that sound like margarine commercials and others styles that someone else described as "calling the camels".  If by iconoclasm in England you are referring to things like the era of the Round heads and the Commonwealth under Cromwell, things are more complicated and I do not think that it can be attributed to "rationalism" vs "wonder". 
  
Quote
Ebor.  There is more to "western" Christianity than the sermons and studies. 
DanM.  Let's keep score.  When I was growing up, I could (1) go to Sunday school for Bible study or churchy study, (2) attend church to hear a sermon, (3) join in youth group activities, which combined fun things (sportsy stuff) with Biblical & churchy studies, (4) attend quasi-revivalist summer camps, where we did a lot of Bible and churchy studies, (5) read Christian books of all sorts, including Biblical commentaries and churchy stuff.  Most of this is talking, reading or listening.
Now I can (1) attend liturgy & other services, (2) visit the relics of saints, (3) read the lives of saints, (4) pray using akathists, canons etc., (5) light incense, (6) pray before icons, (7) see the occasional miracle & hear about others etc.  This longer list involves all senses & invariably entails experiences of wonder.

Meaning no disrespect and hoping that I am not crossing any lines of proper forum behaviour, but I have done all of those things as a Anglican, though we use some different words for things i.e. we don't use "akathist" for example.  Since you have cited C.S. Lewis, he was a member of the Church of England as an adult and to his passing.

Quote
My guess is that the generic Protestant list reflects the concerns of the Reformers:  they rejected all Catholic superstitious activities in order to concentrate on the Bible and what they perceived as the fundamental facts arising therefrom (that these facts of salvation tended to come from St. Augustine's playbook is something to discuss elsewhere).  Their scholarly background set the tone for their followers.

Ebor.  May one ask which churches were your early experience?  If you would prefer not to say, I withdraw the question with apologies.
DanM.  Mais oui!  United Methodist, Free Methodist and (when my father joined the Army) generic Protestant.

Thank you for the information on your personal experiences.  They do appear to have been low on the liturgical scale, though not ever having been any sort of Methodist personally I don't have much knowledge/experience in those Churches.
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« Reply #594 on: August 18, 2013, 04:26:44 PM »

4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion.

It's very possible they didn't produce as much, but Byzantine/ Orthodox culture did produce its share of epics. Off the top of my head: Digenis Akritas, the Kosovo cycle of heroic ballads, and the epic poems of Peter Njegos (most famously The Mountain Wreath). There is also the enormous wealth of fairy tales produced from various Orthodox countries.

You have plunged deep into the frontier of my ignorance.  My sources--more than 30 years ago--assured me that the Byzantines produced no creative literature.  By Byzantine, they meant--Greek-speaking Constantinopolitans.  

I don't know what else they came out with, but the Byzantine epic poem Digenis Akritas is comparable to medieval West European romances of the same period. You can read about it and related songs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acritic_songs
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« Reply #595 on: August 18, 2013, 05:42:56 PM »

4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion.

It's very possible they didn't produce as much, but Byzantine/ Orthodox culture did produce its share of epics. Off the top of my head: Digenis Akritas, the Kosovo cycle of heroic ballads, and the epic poems of Peter Njegos (most famously The Mountain Wreath). There is also the enormous wealth of fairy tales produced from various Orthodox countries.

You have plunged deep into the frontier of my ignorance.  My sources--more than 30 years ago--assured me that the Byzantines produced no creative literature.  By Byzantine, they meant--Greek-speaking Constantinopolitans.  

I don't know what else they came out with, but the Byzantine epic poem Digenis Akritas is comparable to medieval West European romances of the same period. You can read about it and related songs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acritic_songs

This really expands what had been a dark broom-closet into a nice-sized suite.  Thank you so much.
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« Reply #596 on: September 27, 2013, 07:06:10 PM »

I've listened to the audio of all of the HP books. I've seen and own all of the Movies on DVD and Blu-Ray. The idea that HP is of the devil or is driving people to Satan is extremely laughable. It is obvious that people who are taking this opinion have either A) Not read the series or B) Were looking for what they wanted to find rather than what was actually there. Let me explain:

The main character is a young boy who exhibits positive characteristics: bravery, loyalty, inquisitiveness, yearning to do the right thing, willing to sacrifice himself in order to save his fellow man (in this case the entire human and magic races). The very act of self-sacrifice (in the final book, in order to rid the world of Voldemort, Harry must accept death by Voldemort's hand. He selflessly accepts this after much inflection and like Christ, voluntarily accepts his fate to save his friends.

In the final book, there is a scene where Harry is transported to the Afterlife. This is certainly in line with Christian teaching, we believe in a life that exists after physical death. Harry is able to converse with Dumbledore who has passed on before him before he is revived on earth through mystical forces (Christ raised people from the dead as well). A quote from Dumbledore in Book 1 is particularly Christian based and supportive of the life after death, "After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."
To continue with this thought in a future book, he also says in Book 3, "You think the dead we love ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble?" This is consistent with the idea that those who have died do not simply cease to exist, they exist in the life to come.

Another very Christian quote from Dumbledore in the final book, "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love". Is this not what Christ calls us to do? Love one another just as I have loved you? Is that not the scripture in a nut shell: For God so LOVED the world that he gave his only begotten Son?
Shall we not look at 1 Corinthians 13 where it reiterates again and again the importance of love?
This love is a resounding theme in the HP series. A very Christian concept that love can conquer everything.
In Book 5 the main villain of the series Lord Voldemort is able to inhabit Harry's body for a period of time (demons are known to frequently inhabit humans). Eventually Lord Voldemort is unable to continue inhabiting Harry's body and is forcibly expelled. Dumbledore explains that it is the love that Harry hold within himself that makes Lord Voldemort unable to possess him.

How could a novel based on Love, a strong foundation of Christianity be considered the work of the devil?

-Nick

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« Reply #597 on: September 27, 2013, 07:09:41 PM »

ACK!  Before you write something like that, it is best to write SPOILER ALERT first.  Smiley
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« Reply #598 on: September 27, 2013, 07:36:49 PM »

ACK!  Before you write something like that, it is best to write SPOILER ALERT first.  Smiley

LOL! I figured that it's been 6 years since the final book has been released, but maybe there are some people with their book collections backed up Sorry for the spoiler   Undecided
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« Reply #599 on: September 27, 2013, 07:38:12 PM »

ACK!  Before you write something like that, it is best to write SPOILER ALERT first.  Smiley

LOL! I figured that it's been 6 years since the final book has been released, but maybe there are some people with their book collections backed up Sorry for the spoiler   Undecided
I keep promising myself that I will read it at some point since it was so huge, but somehow, something else always gets in the way. lol
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« Reply #600 on: October 05, 2013, 08:10:34 AM »

Wow.  Someone says 'Harry Potter' on a Christian website, and bam, 18 pages later....

It's never been more to me than just a very fun story.  Love all the HP books.  However, I've also not lost my hold on reality.  I can read stories about wizards without compromising my Christian beliefs or running around the woods thinking I can turn trees into bunnies by waving a stick in the air.  If someone's come unglued, they don't need Harry Potter to help them out onto the ledge.  I can separate fantasy fiction from reality and from the church.  I wrote a fantasy book for middle graders, and it's got gargoyles and a banshee in it--both legitimate devices in any fantasy story.  Harry Potter is just a very fun story.  It only becomes dangerous when you think it's real, and magic isn't real.
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« Reply #601 on: October 05, 2013, 12:13:02 PM »

According to the books, Squibs are those born in magical families but have no magic. So, the job given to Squibs is to deny magic exists, even speak out against it, so Muggles won't start to believe in it.

Which meeeeeeeaaannnns

Everyone who hates Harry Potter is a Squib!

#genius
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« Reply #602 on: October 05, 2013, 04:40:31 PM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.
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« Reply #603 on: October 05, 2013, 04:47:55 PM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.
Someone linked me a video once of Harry Potter in the background and a guy with his sexdoll...
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« Reply #604 on: October 05, 2013, 04:53:21 PM »

How could a novel based on Love, a strong foundation of Christianity be considered the work of the devil?

-Nick

A tree shall be known by its fruit and I am not just talking about Dumbledore here.
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« Reply #605 on: October 05, 2013, 04:54:50 PM »

How could a novel based on Love, a strong foundation of Christianity be considered the work of the devil?

-Nick

A tree shall be known by its fruit and I am not just talking about Dumbledore here.
Dumbledore didn't fall too far from that tree.
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« Reply #606 on: October 05, 2013, 05:37:44 PM »

According to the books, Squibs are those born in magical families but have no magic. So, the job given to Squibs is to deny magic exists, even speak out against it, so Muggles won't start to believe in it.

Which meeeeeeeaaannnns

Everyone who hates Harry Potter is a Squib!

#genius
I don't know what any of that means.
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« Reply #607 on: October 05, 2013, 06:52:58 PM »

Wow.  Someone says 'Harry Potter' on a Christian website, and bam, 18 pages later....

It's never been more to me than just a very fun story.  Love all the HP books.  However, I've also not lost my hold on reality.  I can read stories about wizards without compromising my Christian beliefs or running around the woods thinking I can turn trees into bunnies by waving a stick in the air.  If someone's come unglued, they don't need Harry Potter to help them out onto the ledge.  I can separate fantasy fiction from reality and from the church.  I wrote a fantasy book for middle graders, and it's got gargoyles and a banshee in it--both legitimate devices in any fantasy story.  Harry Potter is just a very fun story.  It only becomes dangerous when you think it's real, and magic isn't real.

Wow, you wrote a book? Cool!
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« Reply #608 on: October 07, 2013, 07:17:33 PM »

How could a novel based on Love, a strong foundation of Christianity be considered the work of the devil?

-Nick

A tree shall be known by its fruit and I am not just talking about Dumbledore here.

That was brilliant..... How long did it take you to think up that one?

-Nick
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« Reply #609 on: October 07, 2013, 07:24:08 PM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.
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« Reply #610 on: October 07, 2013, 07:43:15 PM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.

I haven't ever.  Shocked
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« Reply #611 on: October 07, 2013, 10:15:08 PM »

How could a novel based on Love, a strong foundation of Christianity be considered the work of the devil?

-Nick

A tree shall be known by its fruit and I am not just talking about Dumbledore here.

That was brilliant..... How long did it take you to think up that one?

-Nick

Less time I am afraid than it took for that bio of yours.
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« Reply #612 on: October 08, 2013, 12:43:46 PM »

How could a novel based on Love, a strong foundation of Christianity be considered the work of the devil?

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A tree shall be known by its fruit and I am not just talking about Dumbledore here.

That was brilliant..... How long did it take you to think up that one?

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Less time I am afraid than it took for that bio of yours.

Well aren't you just a model of efficiency.

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« Reply #613 on: October 14, 2013, 06:01:26 PM »

Something else to keep in mind is that AFAIK there's no law that says every children's book has to be written from a Christian perspective in order to be enjoyable and/or educational.
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« Reply #614 on: October 15, 2013, 03:02:57 AM »

Something else to keep in mind is that AFAIK there's no law that says every children's book has to be written from a Christian perspective in order to be enjoyable and/or educational.

Well, I certainly agree with that. But I am wary of children's books that are written from an overtly pagan perspective. For example, I remember Judy Blume books circulating in my elementary school when I was a kid. Horrible stuff, very sexually explicit. But these books were read by all of us. I wasn't raised in a Christian home, so I had no spiritual foundation to guard me against such evil influences. Those books sowed poison into my soul, and that's one of the reasons why I am so vigilant about wanting to protect children from literature and entertainment that may be detrimental to their souls.


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« Reply #615 on: October 15, 2013, 08:32:40 AM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.

I haven't ever.  Shocked

Not much fun when poison ivy is in season...
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« Reply #616 on: October 15, 2013, 08:49:27 AM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.

I haven't ever.  Shocked

Not much fun when poison ivy is in season...

Or when the Whomping Willow is on a roll. Tongue
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« Reply #617 on: October 15, 2013, 08:50:45 AM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.

I haven't ever.  Shocked

Not much fun when poison ivy is in season...

Or when the Whomping Willow is on a roll. Tongue

 laugh Such a misunderstood tree
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« Reply #618 on: October 15, 2013, 08:56:49 AM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.

I haven't ever.  Shocked

Not much fun when poison ivy is in season...

Or when the Whomping Willow is on a roll. Tongue

 laugh Such a misunderstood tree

What did you expect, being left with nothing but Aragog and his cronies? angel
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« Reply #619 on: October 18, 2013, 04:25:03 PM »

I read the first few pages of this topic and quickly became bored, so I may address points that have already been addressed and such. I have no authority to say the books are or aren't evil. This is just my own personal opinion.

(spoiler alert if you haven't read all 7 books and/or seen the movies)

I was born and raised Orthodox. My mom read the HP books when I started asking about them, then deemed them harmless and allowed me to read them. They were actually the books I learned how to read with. If you can present to me real evidence of bad themes in the book and say it's evil, then I will accept that. However, I find overwhelming evidence that the books actually have harmless, if not good, messages in them.

Harry's parents died, killed by Voldemort (the main villain), when he was a baby. They were trying to protect him. His mother's sacrifice for his life protected Harry from Voldemort until he became of adult age, because her love for him was so powerful.

In Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, which is the fifth book, Harry feels angry and misunderstood by his peers, so he isolates himself from them. As he begins to isolate himself, Voldemort's hold over him grows stronger, and he begins to feel even more angry and misunderstood. He approaches his godfather, a man by the name of Sirius, and asks Sirius if his anger makes him an evil person. Sirius says "Harry, the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We all have light and dark inside of us, what matters is the part you choose to act on." (The Death Eaters are Voldemort's followers.)

Also in HP and the Order of the Phoenix, there's a scene where Voldemort tries to 'possess' Harry. He makes Harry think of all the awful and horrible things in his life, all of the deaths and the misery. Harry is about to give in and let Voldemort win the battle when his friends enter the room. Upon seeing them, Harry remembers his parents, all of the great times he's had with his friends, his father figures in his life and his love for all of those people. He tells Voldemort, "You're the weak one. You'll never know love, or friendship, and I feel sorry for you." The love is painful for Voldemort to come into contact with, so he recoils and leaves Harry's body.

JK Rowling also mentions many times over an afterlife. Harry was approaching his death, about to sacrifice himself for his peers so that no one else would have to die, and he saw the ghosts of his parents, his godfather, and another strong father figure in his life. They told him they had been watching him all along and not to be afraid of dying. 

Voldemort, to protect himself, has split his soul into seven pieces (by killing people) and placed them into objects that are nearly invincible. As long as those objects exist, Voldemort cannot die. Harry and his best friends, Ron and Hermione, set out to destroy the objects so that they can defeat Voldemort. The objects don't go down without a fight: they play on the weaknesses of the person trying to destroy them, making them see visions or trying to make them doubt themselves, trying to make them turn on their friends, trying to plant seeds of doubt. Each of the times that they come across a piece, Voldemort's soul tries something different to stop them, and by various different means the trio of heroes overcomes the temptations. JKR stresses the importance of keeping the soul whole and intact, and that evil is necessary to break your soul apart.

There are also creatures in the series called "dementors". Dementors live by sucking out the souls of people, which they do by feeding off of the bad things in their life until that's all the person can think about. The way to defend yourself against a dementor is basically to think about your happiest memory. The more powerful your memory is, the more powerful your defense will be. The memory Harry chooses is a very vague memory of his parents speaking to him when he was an infant--because of the love his parents had for him and how happy having a memory of his parents made him, his defense against the dementors was the strongest of any other character in the book.

There are many more examples I could give, but these are the first to come to mind.

Love and friendship conquer all. This is the constant theme of the books and it proves itself time and time again in many situations against many foes with many motivations.


On the other hand, the 'witchcraft' in the book is fantasy magic. Turning the tip of a wand into a flashlight, making objects hover, making pictures move. I have known two Wiccans in my lifetime, and the magic they practice is extremely different.

As a young child, I read the books and mainly dismissed the magic. "Oh, a light on the tip of a wand, that's sort of neat, I guess." And on the flip side--"Wow. 'We all have good and bad inside us, what matters is what we act on'--that's a really, really good quote!"


Also, I am very curious about the statistics mentioned and how the person who did the study decided upon them. What questions were asked? "Are you a Wiccan?" and "Have you read Harry Potter?" That's an unfair study to make, because they could have read Harry Potter after they became interested in witchcraft. Besides, more people have read the books than not, so there could be absolutely no correlation between the HP books and the witchcraft.

Youtube is also an incredibly unreliable source for this kind of thing, because you have basically have no clue who's posting it or what their beliefs are. When it comes to religious questions, I would much rather refer to an Orthodox website than leave myself vulnerable to the opinions of someone who could have a huge agenda I don't know about.

Now, if you have actual examples of evil events or quotes in the book (other than that which is obviously evil and comes to be triumphed against, such as Voldemort), feel free to use those as evidence.
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« Reply #620 on: October 18, 2013, 04:25:53 PM »

Welcome!
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« Reply #621 on: October 18, 2013, 04:28:31 PM »

Welcome!

I assume that was in response to me? Thank you Smiley
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« Reply #622 on: October 25, 2013, 04:56:32 PM »

But HP an lead you to real magic...
And why to enjoy seeing magic while it is evil even if fantasy?
Yeah may love be the main theme.Love may be the main theme also in something else bad like an incest story...
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« Reply #623 on: October 25, 2013, 09:35:31 PM »

Something that fans of both witchcraft and Harry Potter have in common that will make Christians happy: virginity.

You haven't been to the naked rites in the forest lately.

I haven't ever.  Shocked

Not much fun when poison ivy is in season...

Or when the Whomping Willow is on a roll. Tongue

 laugh Such a misunderstood tree

What did you expect, being left with nothing but Aragog and his cronies? angel

Aragog was also misunderstood. He was just hungry. Yeesh.
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« Reply #624 on: October 25, 2013, 10:14:37 PM »

But HP can lead you to real magic...
And why to enjoy seeing magic while it is evil even if fantasy?
Yeah may love be the main theme.Love may be the main theme also in something else bad like an incest story...

Anything can lead one to practice magic if the will and the desire are there; Homer, Vergil and Dante might lead one to practice magic.  I have never known anyone who was persuaded to take up magic as a result of reading HP.  You will have to read HP sufficiently to decide that the magic of HP is the same as the magic of the deluded.  As for your final comment, I would not know.


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« Reply #625 on: October 26, 2013, 09:01:08 PM »

But HP an lead you to real magic...
And why to enjoy seeing magic while it is evil even if fantasy?

Now I have had a thought that might help everyone.  We can use Toulmin's argumentation scheme to sort things out.  I am going to cut some corners, but even a rough approximation to Toulmin will help us enormously.  
According to Toulmin, the first step of making an argument is to stake a claim.  
The second is to provide evidence for the claim.  
The third is to provide a warrant for the evidence.  A warrant is generally a principle or rule that makes the evidence relevant.
The fourth is to provide backing for the warrant.  Backing tends to take the form of institutionally-approved sources of warrants.  
E.g., it is time to go out to eat.  Jack wants to go out for seafood, Jill wants Mexican.  Jill says, “Let’s go to the Mexican restaurant” (CLAIM).  Jack asks why she should pick.  Jill says, “You picked last time” (EVIDENCE).  Jack rather densely asks what difference that makes.  Jill says, “We’re supposed to take turns” (WARRANT).  [If Jill had wanted to be more exact, she might have said, "Equals take turns making decisions."]  Jack wonders why that matters.  Jill retorts, “That’s how we have always done it” (BACKING).  Jill needn't have chosen the backing she did.  She might have retorted, "That's what Aristotle says."  If she could lay her hands on some relevant research, she might have said, "Dr. Whitejacket of Pinkleton University proved that couples who take turns making decisions tend to be happier."  

If you and I stated our arguments like this, things would I think become more clear to everyone.  I'll start.

CLAIM.  The magic of HP is unobjectionable.
EVIDENCE.  Magical ability is a matter of genes in HP, so no SANE person reading HP can have the means of performing it.
WARRANT.  The kind of magic in stories that would be objectionable would provide readers with the hope of performing it.
BACKING does not seem to be necessary here.  Putatively some arguments would use church canons, the Bible etc. for backing.  E.g., I recall a piece of ps.-Chrysostom which mentioned myth-tellers as effectively damnable.  That seems harsh.

If you want to rebut my argument, you have some clearly defined options.  
(1)  You can show that the warrant is false.  E.g., you might want to say that all magic of any kind is evil.  I would challenge that, of course.  
(2)  You might try to prove that the evidence is bogus.  In that case you would have to show that magic in HP is performed with the assistance of demons, that it is not genetically founded, that HP shows exactly how to do magic etc.
Should you decline to rebut my argument, the burden of the argument remains on your shoulders and I skip around merrily with wreath of something in my hair--olive, I think.

For your part, you would have to construct your own case marking CLAIM, EVIDENCE and WARRANT, which would provide me with a clear map to how to devastate your argument.  

I really think all arguments ought to be conducted along these lines.  It would make everything much clearer.  We could always tell who was shirking, who was off-trail, etc.  It would also make everyone more thoughtful about their opinions.  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 09:03:05 PM by DanM » Logged
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« Reply #626 on: November 02, 2013, 03:43:13 AM »

Uh,oh you want computer logic?
Well:
Things are split into bad,neutral,good.
Reading books does not fall into one category but depends according to what the book writes about.
So reading books about religion is good.
Reading books with main theme something that is evil like magic, demons(as the main theme) is evil.
Other books can be neutral, they are neither sin nor aid in your spiritual life.
I think that's an argument. My arguments have different construction...
Why it is evil? Your soul darkens. Even if we don't get it soul doesn't like things that are against Christ.
Okay HP shows good wizard. Then if I an assasin is the protagonist and he is shown as the good side then it is good?
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« Reply #627 on: November 02, 2013, 06:00:25 AM »

There are dozens of religious books that are bad, even the "Orthodox" ones.
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« Reply #628 on: November 02, 2013, 07:15:05 AM »

You mean wrong Orthodox...
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« Reply #629 on: November 02, 2013, 07:48:35 AM »

Things are split into bad,neutral,good.

If only...
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