OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 04:12:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Harry Potter and Witchcraft  (Read 25726 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #540 on: August 17, 2013, 05:57:00 AM »

Well, don't say you weren't warned, you simply ignored the warning.  Don't be surprised, because there is no reason to be, you were well informed.  Don't wonder why the world is the way it is.  Your apathy contributed more than their actions.

You keep presenting outliers of any fabric (here and on other threads) as the norm, and then you wonder why people won't buy your skewed perspective. Roll Eyes
Riiiight...
Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #541 on: August 17, 2013, 08:41:09 AM »

I appreciate your effort to produce some kind of evidence.  I checked out one of the sites you referenced--http://www.witchcraft.com.au/.  I chose this one because I thought there might be something relevant and because I do not take advice from Christiananswers.com or similar.  Yuck!  Much better a witchcraft site.  
On the home-page we are told, "Witches have not received good publicity. Witches always end up to be the bad guys in television shows, movies, and books."  How witches end up as bad GUYS is beyond me.  This site recommends that the "First thing of course is to do a lot of research.  Everything at first is about the fundamentals and less of the practical applications."  I'll bet a LOT less of the practical applications.  "Witches love and respect Mother Nature."  Also, you need "a place that you feel belong with," where "you can do all your rituals freely and without disturbance."  Or being laughed at when nothing happens.  To the side is an advertisement of the sort that Rowling makes fun of in her books: "Call a Wiccan Psychic for Guidance!"  Only $37.50 for 15 minutes.  I have a lovely picture in my mind of some poor student at Hogwarts first wrestling with the phone and then trying to figure out what a credit card is.  
The page with HP spells was one of several topical links.  One such was love spells.  There we are told a Wiccan rule:  "An it harm none, do as you will."  (An = if, if your Shakespeare is rusty.)  We are also advised that "The reasons these spells fail are numerous."  You think?  
As for HP, at the top of that page we find "There are numerous charms and spells that appear in J K Rowling’s Harry Potter books."  A list of charms followed.  It would be really funny if someone tried to use those charms.  In the Greek Magical Papyri there are loads of spells that would be funny to see someone use.  My favorite was the one for scorpion stings:  whisper into the ear of a donkey that you were stung. How many times do you have to do that to figure out that it doesn't work?
If you enjoy loads of unconscious humor, this site is definitely worth a visit.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 08:42:30 AM by DanM » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #542 on: August 17, 2013, 09:16:51 AM »

I appreciate your effort to produce some kind of evidence.

You thought that was evidence to support my position?  Hardly.  I already supplied that.  What I provided was varying opinions and resources to show it is not only a handful of people who realize the potential problems and also to show people who practice witchcraft are using HP as a way to get to people.  But, I find it telling you would rather get your information from a witchcraft site than a Christian site you do not like.  Good job on the downplay of the problem.  Great work!  Yep, God never told us to leave that stuff alone.  Well, He did, but added a provision for fantasy novels.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #543 on: August 17, 2013, 09:18:12 AM »

This is mainly just for fun, but also a reminder to those who say something along the lines of, "This will never happen."

http://rense.com/general81/dw.htm

Quote
Things That Will Never Happen

Yep.  It will never happen...
Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #544 on: August 17, 2013, 09:38:20 AM »


Kerdy.  You thought that was evidence to support my position?  Hardly.  I already supplied that. 
DanM.  Could you possibly summarize this evidence?  I do not remember seeing any, but in 12 pp. I might have missed it.  Many people do not distinguish evidence from speculation, but I only accept dead facts.  Furthermore, I require statistically significant information.  Even if I hear about one Potterite who found fulfilment in his local Wiccan outpost, I will divide that Potterite by the number of people who have read HP to find out what kind of trend is taking place.  By contrast, the number of professors I have known who were liberals is huge; the number professors my daughter had in English who were fire-breathing Marxists is incredible; the number of people I have known who went to university and came out Marxists or otherwise twisted round is amazing.  In other words, it does happen in life that we are able to say things like, "If you do X, Y is likely to happen."  The fact that in all these years I have never known anyone to take HP as their inspiration to lead a magical life makes me dubious of your claim, which I take to be something like, "If you read HP, you are likely to get drawn into magic."

Kerdy.  What I provided was varying opinions and resources to show it is not only a handful of people who realize the potential problems and also to show people who practice witchcraft are using HP as a way to get to people. 
DanM.  I agree that this website rather unscrupulously shows how people can use HP to get people into Wicca.  However, even that list is a handful of "opinions and resources."  It's why my college professors used to insist on at least 12 books or articles when I wrote a 10-page paper.

Kerdy.  But, I find it telling you would rather get your information from a witchcraft site than a Christian site you do not like. 
DanM.  Previous experience with Christiananswers.com has unimpressed me.  Some of these people rely on the Glass Onion for their news.  Why go to ninnies for information?  Also, if there is real evidence of HP drawing hapless fans of HP into witchcraft, it is going to be on the sites to which they would presumably visit.

Kerdy.  Good job on the downplay of the problem.  Great work!  Yep, God never told us to leave that stuff alone.  Well, He did, but added a provision for fantasy novels.
DanM.  Sarcasm usually does not advance an argument. 
Logged
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,047



« Reply #545 on: August 17, 2013, 09:56:55 AM »

If the Elder Barsunousphious of Optina warned to have no truck with football as devil inspired and not to attend it, I simply ask for an Orthodox Christian specific view of HP, not a debate based on a secular expectations, evidential arguments and like. In asking from such a viewpoint, which should not on an Orthodox Christian be that unreasonable, surely?

As for placing an obligation on me because I merely ask rather than categorically state, who sets these rules? The Church? The Fathers and Elders? If not these I am under no obligation, dear friends.

The polarisation looking back appears to me to stem from entrenched viewpoints and a combative approach rather than a specifically Christian approach. The Holy Apostle Paul's words on Love come to mind.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:57:58 AM by Santagranddad » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #546 on: August 17, 2013, 10:14:18 AM »

I think there have been several Orthodox-specific views of Harry Potter given here by Orthodox Christians.

But, for something pithy, Elder Isidore of Gethsemane Skete would say to keep the good and leave the bad. He said this was what he did when a spiritual son of his asked why he was reading a certain book which may have been considered "trashy" by early 20th century Russian standards. I think someone had given it to him, and he replied that he took what was good in it and left the bad.

To me, that is the work of a Christian--to redeem what is good in the world and to leave the bad. Everything that is good and beautiful belongs to God, wherever it is. Is this not the same with the soul? There is both good and evil in the soul. There is good and evil in our neighbor. There is good and evil in the world around us. God does not throw everything away because it is tainted by evil. Rather, he is in the business of redeeming the good, of overlooking sins, of purifying in ways which do not harm.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,213


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #547 on: August 17, 2013, 11:44:39 AM »

DanM, if you really want to see real pagans discussing Harry Potter (with lots of context), go through these:

http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=5107.0
http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=15017.0
http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?7387-Cracked-After-Hours-Why-the-Harry-Potter-Universe-is-Secretly-Terrifying

Some of the discussions do go on for long. Smiley
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #548 on: August 17, 2013, 12:13:37 PM »

Some theses. 
1.  Literature seems to require one of two engines at least (not at most):  wonder (Homer) or satire (Cervantes and his innumerable followers). 
1.a.  Combinations are fine (patches in Homer).
2.  Wonder is exiled by rationalism.
3.  In particular it has been supposed that the Reformers exiled wonder as they purged Catholicism of its superstitious excesses.
4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion.
5.  The popularity of HP is due at least in part to the West's unfulfilled craving for wonder.
6.  Different kinds of stories have different devices by which to credibly introduce wonder.
7.  At least some anti-Potterites are falling in the True Believer trap described by Eric Hoffer.
8.  Others perhaps do not want to experience any wonder outside the Faith.
9.  Potterites may appeal to St. Basil's address to young men on reading Greek literature as justifying their position.
10.  Anti-Potterites might appeal to Tertullian, to St. Jerome (after his bad dream) or even to St. Augustine (talking about why he quit teaching literature).
 

These are some interesting ideas.  Is one permitted to offer countering thoughts?  If so, for example
 "2.  Wonder is exiled by rationalism."

I would not say that this is necessarily true.  Many scientists have been motivated by wonder and rational thought.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean in this thesis.  Would you explain it a bit more please?
"
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #549 on: August 17, 2013, 03:07:23 PM »

Which is a shame because I've seen you make some sensible comments in other threads.  Undecided

 Shocked

Where? Yet to find a single post.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Nikolaos Greek
Last among equals
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Greece
Posts: 203



« Reply #550 on: August 17, 2013, 04:14:18 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
And yes Cinderella can also be harmful like Harry Potter.
Logged

God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,958


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #551 on: August 17, 2013, 04:26:24 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
Nah, just looking for evidence beyond speculation and mere personal opinion that it is.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #552 on: August 17, 2013, 04:26:43 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.

Oh, this approach will go over very well.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #553 on: August 17, 2013, 04:27:34 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
And yes Cinderella can also be harmful like Harry Potter.

You are familiar with the difference between "can be" and "is," yes?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Nikolaos Greek
Last among equals
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Greece
Posts: 203



« Reply #554 on: August 17, 2013, 04:30:44 PM »

Yes. I understand the difference.
Logged

God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.
ThatOneGuy92
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Lutheran
Jurisdiction: Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod
Posts: 49



« Reply #555 on: August 17, 2013, 07:05:02 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
And yes Cinderella can also be harmful like Harry Potter.

While your concern is duly noted, some tact is also appreciated.
Logged

Sincerely your brother in Christ,
Tim

"I cannot persuade myself that without love to others, and without, as far as rests with me, peaceableness towards all, I can be called a worthy servant of Jesus Christ."
- St. Basil the Great
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #556 on: August 17, 2013, 07:42:46 PM »

S'dad.  If the Elder Barsunousphious of Optina warned to have no truck with football as devil inspired and not to attend it,
DanM.  The bizarre behavior of soccer fans seems to justify his stricture.  

S'dad.  I simply ask for an Orthodox Christian specific view of HP, not a debate based on a secular expectations, evidential arguments and like. In asking from such a viewpoint, which should not on an Orthodox Christian be that unreasonable, surely?
DanM.  'Tis very unreasonable.  
1.  The purpose of argument is to increase the probability that we make the best decision possible under conditions of uncertainty.  From another perspective, we might say that argumentation is truth-seeking. Fallacies are eschewed because they are not truth-seeking.  That HP is to be shunned is an uncertain proposition, if only because you say it might oughtter be and I say it ought notter be.  The only way we can both make progress is to use truth-seeking devices--arguments--by which to increase the probability that we will make the best decision possible.  So, if you and I in fact disagree about HP, the very best thing that we can do is argue.  However, we want to argue in a way that is truth-seeking.  If I call you a knuckle-draggng Philistine--i.e., if I employ ad hominem abusive--I have not used a truth-seeking device.  If both of us follow truth-seeking norms--clear definitions and propositions, appeals to evidence etc.--both of us benefit.  
2.  Take cloning.  I find it very revolting.  Sadly, I cannot find any specific prohibitions in the Bible or the Fathers--just an intuition that it is very, very wrong.  If I meet someone who disagrees with me, what I am going to do?  I have to persuade him in terms that will be meaningful to him.  If we both agree on truth-seeking devices, that makes my job a lot easier.

S'Dad.  The polarisation looking back appears to me to stem from entrenched viewpoints and a combative approach rather than a specifically Christian approach. The Holy Apostle Paul's words on Love come to mind.
DanM.  IMHO, polarisation often stems from the conviction that one's intuition is self-evidently true:  like a good axiom, one has only to apprehend it mentally to grasp its verity.  I do not wish to downplay intuition, but I do want to remember that intuition is not the only belief-generating mechanism; we also have perception, feelings and reason.  The job of reason is in this view to some extent that of corroborating or disconfirming an intuition.  Argumentation allows reason to do this.  If everyone (and here I am thinking much more widely than this forum) used truth-seeking devices to make decisions, polarisation would be eliminated.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 08:02:40 PM by DanM » Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #557 on: August 17, 2013, 07:47:46 PM »

Ebor.  Is one permitted to offer countering thoughts? 
DanM.  I insist.

Ebor.  If so, for example "2.  Wonder is exiled by rationalism."  I would not say that this is necessarily true.  Many scientists have been motivated by wonder and rational thought. 
DanM.  That was the point of Aristotle in the loc. cl.

Ebor.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean in this thesis.  Would you explain it a bit more please?
DanM.  By "rationalism" I do not mean rational investigation--I mean a philosophy which has no room for God or his miraculous works.  If you are familiar with the dwarves in C. S. Lewis' _The Pilgrim's Regress_, you know what I mean.  Thanks for the chance to clarify.
Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #558 on: August 17, 2013, 07:55:44 PM »


Some of atheist/pagan folks seemed dubious about HP's Christian mythos, didn't they?  "I could see the Christian influence (esp. in the last book) but I couldn't see many Pagan themes."  Thanks for the peek into the other side.  Hmmm.
Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #559 on: August 17, 2013, 07:59:19 PM »

Shanghaiski.  But, for something pithy, Elder Isidore of Gethsemane Skete would say to keep the good and leave the bad. He said this was what he did when a spiritual son of his asked why he was reading a certain book which may have been considered "trashy" by early 20th century Russian standards.
DanM.  I recall Elder Nektary of Optina using a neo-pagan ritual in Rider Haggard's _She_ as a means of explaining the Jesus Prayer.  You have to admire an elder who reads SF in a foreign language.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #560 on: August 17, 2013, 09:43:53 PM »

Shanghaiski.  But, for something pithy, Elder Isidore of Gethsemane Skete would say to keep the good and leave the bad. He said this was what he did when a spiritual son of his asked why he was reading a certain book which may have been considered "trashy" by early 20th century Russian standards.
DanM.  I recall Elder Nektary of Optina using a neo-pagan ritual in Rider Haggard's _She_ as a means of explaining the Jesus Prayer.  You have to admire an elder who reads SF in a foreign language.

Could you perhaps did up a reference to that, Dan? That's very interesting. (I assume by SF, you mean science fiction? That's one category I'm not all that familiar with, but I've heard that there's a lot of good stuff in "Dune.")
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
WPM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,244



« Reply #561 on: August 17, 2013, 09:54:59 PM »

(I get the sense of Harry Potter in the book series) ... (And also on T.V.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:55:44 PM by WPM » Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #562 on: August 17, 2013, 10:02:46 PM »

Shanghaiski.  But, for something pithy, Elder Isidore of Gethsemane Skete would say to keep the good and leave the bad. He said this was what he did when a spiritual son of his asked why he was reading a certain book which may have been considered "trashy" by early 20th century Russian standards.
DanM.  I recall Elder Nektary of Optina using a neo-pagan ritual in Rider Haggard's _She_ as a means of explaining the Jesus Prayer.  You have to admire an elder who reads SF in a foreign language.

Could you perhaps did up a reference to that, Dan? That's very interesting. (I assume by SF, you mean science fiction? That's one category I'm not all that familiar with, but I've heard that there's a lot of good stuff in "Dune.")

I knew I should have.  You will find it in I. M. Kontzevitch's _Elder Nektary of Optina_ (St. Hermann of Alaska Monastery Brotherhood, 1998), pp. 205-206. 
For what it's worth, I felt even in my wayward youth that there were a lot of bad things in Dune.  However, his short stories (mostly about defeating fate) were brilliant--just priceless.
Elder Nektary was also familiar with Paradise Lost. 
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #563 on: August 17, 2013, 10:51:24 PM »

Ebor.  Is one permitted to offer countering thoughts? 
DanM.  I insist.

Excellent. Thank you.  Smiley

Quote
Ebor.  If so, for example "2.  Wonder is exiled by rationalism."  I would not say that this is necessarily true.  Many scientists have been motivated by wonder and rational thought. 
DanM.  That was the point of Aristotle in the loc. cl.

Ebor.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean in this thesis.  Would you explain it a bit more please?
DanM.  By "rationalism" I do not mean rational investigation--I mean a philosophy which has no room for God or his miraculous works.  If you are familiar with the dwarves in C. S. Lewis' _The Pilgrim's Regress_, you know what I mean.  Thanks for the chance to clarify.


The dwarves in that book are, as I recall, representations of the more brutal philosophies with one group being the "marxomani" and they were all under the rule of Savage.  There were a number of characters, all "north of the road" that had no place for God such as  the "Clevers", the Three Pale Men and the Spirit of the Age who was bested by Reason with her three riddles as you may recall. 

Now if we separate the "miraculous works" from God would that mean things like the stars and galaxies, the rich variety of plants and animals and more?  If that is the case then I don't think that wonder is not a part of such persons who may have "no room" for God.  Carl Sagan for example certainly had wonder and curiosity and even delight at the universe but as far as I know was not religious.  Stephen Jay Gould was another. 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #564 on: August 17, 2013, 11:00:19 PM »

No point in running in circles like dogs chasing their tails trying to get people to see when they are willfully blind.  Sort of like getting an alcoholic to stop drinking when he doesn't want to stop.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 11:03:46 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #565 on: August 17, 2013, 11:03:46 PM »

On this point:

Quote
4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion

I think that looking at this would involve such things in history as the rise of literacy, the printing press (recalling the fact that for a very long time every copy of anything was written out by hand), the collection of stories perhaps (the Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault in France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrault  and others) the state of society and more.  There were certainly plenty of lives of the saints and stories about them in western Christendom. And there was a tradition of literature in some form or other.  Consider Beowulf, the various Sagas and Gesta.  What was the literary tradition/culture in the Byzantine times?  Different cultures have different customs and that may have an affect on the lack of narrative literature.  Or it occurs to me, did it not survive the ages and warfare and more perhaps?

Just some thoughts for consideration
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #566 on: August 17, 2013, 11:05:03 PM »

Which is a shame because I've seen you make some sensible comments in other threads.  Undecided

 Shocked

Where? Yet to find a single post.

Stop reading your own posts.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #567 on: August 17, 2013, 11:05:35 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
Nah, just looking for evidence beyond speculation and mere personal opinion that it is.

You will never find something you have no interest in discovering. 
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,958


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #568 on: August 17, 2013, 11:08:33 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
Nah, just looking for evidence beyond speculation and mere personal opinion that it is.

You will never find something you have no interest in discovering. 
Try me. I actually am interested.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #569 on: August 17, 2013, 11:09:06 PM »

Ah. Still blind that HP is harmful.
Nah, just looking for evidence beyond speculation and mere personal opinion that it is.

You will never find something you have no interest in discovering.  
Try me. I actually am interested.

LOL!  Right. I've seen you "interest" in other threads.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 11:09:26 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #570 on: August 17, 2013, 11:09:44 PM »

. . .
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,213


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #571 on: August 18, 2013, 08:31:15 AM »


Some of atheist/pagan folks seemed dubious about HP's Christian mythos, didn't they?  "I could see the Christian influence (esp. in the last book) but I couldn't see many Pagan themes."  Thanks for the peek into the other side.  Hmmm.

I don't consider Harry Potter Christian fiction, but fiction doesn't need to be Christian to be wholesome. The context of magic is very obviously made up, while the virtues promoted are solid. If we have no monopoly on salvation, because God will save whoever He wills, we certainly have no monopoly on virtue.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #572 on: August 18, 2013, 10:40:44 AM »

On this point:

Quote
4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion

I think that looking at this would involve such things in history as the rise of literacy, the printing press (recalling the fact that for a very long time every copy of anything was written out by hand), the collection of stories perhaps (the Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault in France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrault  and others) the state of society and more.  There were certainly plenty of lives of the saints and stories about them in western Christendom. And there was a tradition of literature in some form or other.  Consider Beowulf, the various Sagas and Gesta.  What was the literary tradition/culture in the Byzantine times?  Different cultures have different customs and that may have an affect on the lack of narrative literature.  Or it occurs to me, did it not survive the ages and warfare and more perhaps?

Just some thoughts for consideration


My thesis does not deny that the West had saints' lives, but that the East did not produce various sagas, epics, etc.  I suspect that the culture of the East (I mean, Eastern Roman Empire) was inhibited by its very inheritance--Homer, e.g.  The barbarians who blundered into the West were not over-awed by Homer or Vergil--they probably did not know about them and anyway were too busy recording their own tales.  I do not recall barbarians in the East recording their stories in Greek.  The East was not even that interested in Latin literature.  Someone did translate De Bello Gallico into Greek, but that was probably for practical purposes.  I appreciate your thoughts and questions.  Theses are not or should not be made of adamantine; they should be more like nerf balls.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #573 on: August 18, 2013, 10:47:07 AM »

4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion.

It's very possible they didn't produce as much, but Byzantine/ Orthodox culture did produce its share of epics. Off the top of my head: Digenis Akritas, the Kosovo cycle of heroic ballads, and the epic poems of Peter Njegos (most famously The Mountain Wreath). There is also the enormous wealth of fairy tales produced from various Orthodox countries.

I would also highly recommend the book Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales edited by Serge A. Zenkovsky. It really gave me a new perspective on Orthodox literature.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 10:59:05 AM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #574 on: August 18, 2013, 10:56:15 AM »

Ebor.  Is one permitted to offer countering thoughts? 
DanM.  I insist.

Excellent. Thank you.  Smiley

Quote
Ebor.  If so, for example "2.  Wonder is exiled by rationalism."  I would not say that this is necessarily true.  Many scientists have been motivated by wonder and rational thought. 
DanM.  That was the point of Aristotle in the loc. cl.

Ebor.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean in this thesis.  Would you explain it a bit more please?
DanM.  By "rationalism" I do not mean rational investigation--I mean a philosophy which has no room for God or his miraculous works.  If you are familiar with the dwarves in C. S. Lewis' _The Pilgrim's Regress_, you know what I mean.  Thanks for the chance to clarify.


The dwarves in that book are, as I recall, representations of the more brutal philosophies with one group being the "marxomani" and they were all under the rule of Savage.  There were a number of characters, all "north of the road" that had no place for God such as  the "Clevers", the Three Pale Men and the Spirit of the Age who was bested by Reason with her three riddles as you may recall. 

Now if we separate the "miraculous works" from God would that mean things like the stars and galaxies, the rich variety of plants and animals and more?  If that is the case then I don't think that wonder is not a part of such persons who may have "no room" for God.  Carl Sagan for example certainly had wonder and curiosity and even delight at the universe but as far as I know was not religious.  Stephen Jay Gould was another. 

Ebor, I just did not communicate properly.  What I meant is that the Reformers clean-swept wonder right out of the church.  Orthodoxy by contrast is all about wonders.  _The Way of the Pilgrim_, a book written in a state hostile to Orthodoxy, in a century that saw the birth of Darwin and Marx, is simply a coruscation of wonder after wonder.  The lives of the saints, the sacraments, the miracles, the canons, the akathists, above all the Liturgy--everything in Orthodoxy is full of wonders.  See  http://lettersonorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/looking-back-on-protestantism/ for a former Protestant's appreciation of Catholicism, which is partly the inspiration for this thesis.  In stark contrast, my Protestant/Evangelical upbringing was a matter of Bible studies & long sermons--and in view of what many churches are doing now, I was lucky.  
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #575 on: August 18, 2013, 11:01:40 AM »

_The Way of the Pilgrim_, a book written in a state hostile to Orthodoxy, in a century that saw the birth of Darwin and Marx, is simply a coruscation of wonder after wonder.

I concur trarist Russia had negative impact on the Orthodox Church but I can't really call it  as hostile.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #576 on: August 18, 2013, 11:14:02 AM »

4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion.

It's very possible they didn't produce as much, but Byzantine/ Orthodox culture did produce its share of epics. Off the top of my head: Digenis Akritas, the Kosovo cycle of heroic ballads, and the epic poems of Peter Njegos (most famously The Mountain Wreath). There is also the enormous wealth of fairy tales produced from various Orthodox countries.

You have plunged deep into the frontier of my ignorance.  My sources--more than 30 years ago--assured me that the Byzantines produced no creative literature.  By Byzantine, they meant--Greek-speaking Constantinopolitans.  Fortunately my thesis does not require that the East produced no narrative literature, so stet.  I am delighted to find new epics, esp. in Orthodox countries.  The parallel with the West is perfect--it's the margins of the East that produce narratives worth reading, not the heartland, just as it was the barbarians who produced so much of the medieval Latin literature that was worth reading (e.g., Petrus Alphonsus, that wonderful Jew who converted to Catholicism and regaled us all with Jewish and Moslem stories in Latin) and all of the native language literatures like Beowulf.  Those references you make seem really promising.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:28:05 AM by DanM » Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #577 on: August 18, 2013, 11:24:58 AM »

_The Way of the Pilgrim_, a book written in a state hostile to Orthodoxy, in a century that saw the birth of Darwin and Marx, is simply a coruscation of wonder after wonder.

I concur trarist Russia had negative impact on the Orthodox Church but I can't really call it  as hostile.

I am thinking of the embargo on Old Church Slavonic--the forced Jesuitification of the seminaries--the restriction of candidates for the priesthood to the sons of priests--the abolition of the patriarchate of Moscow--the prohibition of monasticism to all but widowed priests and such--the invention of the office of the Ober-Prokurator to superintend the churches--etc.  See Fr. Tom Hopko lectures on this at AFR and Jeffrey MacDonald's lectures on Russia at http://www.orthodoxchurchhistory.com/.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:27:25 AM by DanM » Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #578 on: August 18, 2013, 11:45:28 AM »

Byzantines produced no creative literature. 

Not necessarily all "Byzantine", but Greek, creative and literary:

Poulologos: Byzantine Opera Ballet - Chistodoulos Halaris

Χρονικό της Κύπρου: Λεόντιος Μαχαιράς - Chronicle of Cyprus

Ξυλούρης, Ερωτόκριτος (Τα θλιβερά μαντάτα) -Στίχοι

ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΙΑ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΑΓΙΟΥΣ ΤΡΕΙΣ ΠΑΙΔΑΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΚΑΜΙΝΩ

ΕΡΩΦΙΛΗ

I was just now leafing through an "Anthology of Greek Literature from the Romanian Principalities".
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:50:21 AM by Romaios » Logged
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,047



« Reply #579 on: August 18, 2013, 12:26:42 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #580 on: August 18, 2013, 12:27:46 PM »

Ebor.  Is one permitted to offer countering thoughts? 
DanM.  I insist.

Excellent. Thank you.  Smiley

Quote
Ebor.  If so, for example "2.  Wonder is exiled by rationalism."  I would not say that this is necessarily true.  Many scientists have been motivated by wonder and rational thought. 
DanM.  That was the point of Aristotle in the loc. cl.

Ebor.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean in this thesis.  Would you explain it a bit more please?
DanM.  By "rationalism" I do not mean rational investigation--I mean a philosophy which has no room for God or his miraculous works.  If you are familiar with the dwarves in C. S. Lewis' _The Pilgrim's Regress_, you know what I mean.  Thanks for the chance to clarify.


The dwarves in that book are, as I recall, representations of the more brutal philosophies with one group being the "marxomani" and they were all under the rule of Savage.  There were a number of characters, all "north of the road" that had no place for God such as  the "Clevers", the Three Pale Men and the Spirit of the Age who was bested by Reason with her three riddles as you may recall. 

Now if we separate the "miraculous works" from God would that mean things like the stars and galaxies, the rich variety of plants and animals and more?  If that is the case then I don't think that wonder is not a part of such persons who may have "no room" for God.  Carl Sagan for example certainly had wonder and curiosity and even delight at the universe but as far as I know was not religious.  Stephen Jay Gould was another. 

Ebor, I just did not communicate properly.  What I meant is that the Reformers clean-swept wonder right out of the church.  Orthodoxy by contrast is all about wonders.  _The Way of the Pilgrim_, a book written in a state hostile to Orthodoxy, in a century that saw the birth of Darwin and Marx, is simply a coruscation of wonder after wonder.  The lives of the saints, the sacraments, the miracles, the canons, the akathists, above all the Liturgy--everything in Orthodoxy is full of wonders.  See  http://lettersonorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/looking-back-on-protestantism/ for a former Protestant's appreciation of Catholicism, which is partly the inspiration for this thesis.  In stark contrast, my Protestant/Evangelical upbringing was a matter of Bible studies & long sermons--and in view of what many churches are doing now, I was lucky.  

Well, first I would say that there is not a monolithic bloc of "the Reformers" and by that are you referring particularly to the 15th and 16th centuries or there abouts?  It is true that, for example, John Calvin and those with him in Geneva removed art and beauty and other things that might contribute to wonder from both church and daily life. Savonarola did much the same in Florence.  But that was not the case in England particularly in the growth of church music or if you consider the writings of John Donne or George Herbert.

There is more to "western" Christianity than the sermons and studies.  May one ask which churches were your early experience?  If you would prefer not to say, I withdraw the question with apologies.
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,078


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #581 on: August 18, 2013, 12:28:16 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.

They're called Byzantines even by the Greeks.
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,394



« Reply #582 on: August 18, 2013, 12:46:46 PM »

On this point:

Quote
4.  The Byzantines did not produce a body of narrative literature comparable to that of the West largely because the lives of the saints met the need for wonder in a spectacular fashion

I think that looking at this would involve such things in history as the rise of literacy, the printing press (recalling the fact that for a very long time every copy of anything was written out by hand), the collection of stories perhaps (the Brothers Grimm, Charles Perrault in France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrault  and others) the state of society and more.  There were certainly plenty of lives of the saints and stories about them in western Christendom. And there was a tradition of literature in some form or other.  Consider Beowulf, the various Sagas and Gesta.  What was the literary tradition/culture in the Byzantine times?  Different cultures have different customs and that may have an affect on the lack of narrative literature.  Or it occurs to me, did it not survive the ages and warfare and more perhaps?

Just some thoughts for consideration


My thesis does not deny that the West had saints' lives, but that the East did not produce various sagas, epics, etc.  I suspect that the culture of the East (I mean, Eastern Roman Empire) was inhibited by its very inheritance--Homer, e.g.  The barbarians who blundered into the West were not over-awed by Homer or Vergil--they probably did not know about them and anyway were too busy recording their own tales.  I do not recall barbarians in the East recording their stories in Greek.  The East was not even that interested in Latin literature.  Someone did translate De Bello Gallico into Greek, but that was probably for practical purposes.  I appreciate your thoughts and questions.  Theses are not or should not be made of adamantine; they should be more like nerf balls.

Well, as other posters have written there were some literary works produced in the "East".  How would Homer have inhibited it, could you expand on this?  It seems likely that with manuscripts having to be labourously written and most people not being able to read and that between war and decay and out-right destruction of books/scrolls/libraries of which there have grievously been many it wasn't the case that the Illiad and Odyssey were common.  Then there's also the question of lives that did not have the time to write down stories though it seems more than likely that there was some oral tradition.  Sitting around telling stories is something that Human Beings do.  Smiley

In England the only reason that we have some very old works is because Sir Robert Cotton, a Tudor-Stuart era gentleman, collected old manuscripts and would put them together and preserve them.  It is from his collection that we have the only copy of Beowulf and the Lindesfarne Gospels for example and even then part of the library was destroyed in a fire in 1731.  So there may have been even more literature from Constantinople and its empire that has not survived. Since religious institutions would preserve some works, that could account for more lives of the saints as opposed to folk tales in the East. Just a thought.

The history of manuscripts can be fascinating.  Sorry for geeking out.
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #583 on: August 18, 2013, 01:03:47 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.

I sense larping.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,047



« Reply #584 on: August 18, 2013, 01:20:53 PM »

Not Byzantine, unless you are some Protestant academic. For Orthodox they were East Romans or simply Romans.

I sense larping.

Larping, please means what? Even the auto-spell check appears not to recognise this word, tks.
Logged
Tags: Harry Potter 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.16 seconds with 72 queries.