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Offline Extreme Copt

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Orientals who became Eastern
« on: July 19, 2013, 10:59:32 AM »
I would like to hear from Oriental Orthodox who became Eastern Orthodox.  What were your reasons and how did your spiritual and physical life change since your conversion.  Please elaborate on your experience.  Were you allowed to take sacraments while you were waiting?

This may seem like a senseless topic to some but I know that there is at least some faction of the Greeks which believe that there church is the one and only true church and that all other Christians should convert to Greek. And I admit I could see some validity to such an opinion.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 11:01:23 AM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 11:03:34 AM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

But we are all Romans.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 11:10:24 AM »
I would like to hear from Oriental Orthodox who became Eastern Orthodox.  What were your reasons and how did your spiritual and physical life change since your conversion.  Please elaborate on your experience.  Were you allowed to take sacraments while you were waiting?

This may seem like a senseless topic to some but I know that there is at least some faction of the Greeks which believe that there church is the one and only true church and that all other Christians should convert to Greek. And I admit I could see some validity to such an opinion.

I'm not aware of any OO on here that became EO. I'm not even sure there are any converts between EO and OO at all on here, although I may be wrong.

Online ialmisry

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 11:11:57 AM »
I would like to hear from Oriental Orthodox who became Eastern Orthodox.  What were your reasons and how did your spiritual and physical life change since your conversion.  Please elaborate on your experience.  Were you allowed to take sacraments while you were waiting?

This may seem like a senseless topic to some but I know that there is at least some faction of the Greeks which believe that there church is the one and only true church and that all other Christians should convert to Greek. And I admit I could see some validity to such an opinion.

I'm not aware of any OO on here that became EO. I'm not even sure there are any converts between EO and OO at all on here, although I may be wrong.
We had one of the latter at least here, Deusestveritas.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 11:13:55 AM »
I would like to hear from Oriental Orthodox who became Eastern Orthodox.  What were your reasons and how did your spiritual and physical life change since your conversion.  Please elaborate on your experience.  Were you allowed to take sacraments while you were waiting?

This may seem like a senseless topic to some but I know that there is at least some faction of the Greeks which believe that there church is the one and only true church and that all other Christians should convert to Greek. And I admit I could see some validity to such an opinion.

I'm not aware of any OO on here that became EO. I'm not even sure there are any converts between EO and OO at all on here, although I may be wrong.
We had one of the latter at least here, Deusestveritas.

Did he(?) ever make a post as to why? Just curious.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 11:14:59 AM »
I would like to hear from Oriental Orthodox who became Eastern Orthodox.  What were your reasons and how did your spiritual and physical life change since your conversion.  Please elaborate on your experience.  Were you allowed to take sacraments while you were waiting?

This may seem like a senseless topic to some but I know that there is at least some faction of the Greeks which believe that there church is the one and only true church and that all other Christians should convert to Greek. And I admit I could see some validity to such an opinion.

I'm not aware of any OO on here that became EO. I'm not even sure there are any converts between EO and OO at all on here, although I may be wrong.
We had one of the latter at least here, Deusestveritas.

Did DVe ever get received? I wasn't around when he posted but reading some of the archives, it sounded like he never actually attended an OO church regularly.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 11:15:19 AM »
The only one I know of is that egyptian priest.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 11:23:26 AM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

If "Greek" is used as opposed to "Latin", the term Greek Orthodox is a synonym for Eastern Orthodox, and thus applicable to the whole Church. If Greek is used as a synonym for Roman/Byzantine, again it applies to the whole Church, especially since the rite of Constantinople (except for attempts to resurrect the Western rite in the States) is the only rite in use today.

So one could say the Church is Greek even though the vast majority of its members are not of Greek ethnic, linguistic or cultural heritage.

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 12:15:41 PM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

If "Greek" is used as opposed to "Latin", the term Greek Orthodox is a synonym for Eastern Orthodox, and thus applicable to the whole Church. If Greek is used as a synonym for Roman/Byzantine, again it applies to the whole Church, especially since the rite of Constantinople (except for attempts to resurrect the Western rite in the States) is the only rite in use today.

So one could say the Church is Greek even though the vast majority of its members are not of Greek ethnic, linguistic or cultural heritage.
Uh, no.  Rhomaios, maybe, but not Greek-which in the days of Constantinople's hay day meant "pagan."  It identification with "Greek Orthodox" dates only after the Latin occupation of 1204, and gained steam only as the term "Ecumenical" as applied to Constantinople was emptied of all meaning.

In Arabic, we have a separate name for the Ancient Greeks (ighriiqii "Grecian") the Modern Greeks (yuunaanii "Ionian") and the Orthodox Greeks in between (ruum "Romans").  Only the last is used with the Church. Except, of course, with reference to the Church of Greece.

Btw, we should completely disown the term "Byzantine."  Those in submission to the Vatican can have if they want-after all, the Vatican's flock invented it.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 01:30:05 PM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

But we are all Romans.

Nonsense.
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lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2013, 01:32:55 PM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

If "Greek" is used as opposed to "Latin", the term Greek Orthodox is a synonym for Eastern Orthodox, and thus applicable to the whole Church. If Greek is used as a synonym for Roman/Byzantine, again it applies to the whole Church, especially since the rite of Constantinople (except for attempts to resurrect the Western rite in the States) is the only rite in use today.

So one could say the Church is Greek even though the vast majority of its members are not of Greek ethnic, linguistic or cultural heritage.

In medieval polemics, perhaps. The Orthodox called the Roman Catholics "Franks" and the Roman Catholics called the Orthodox "Greeks". That doesn't mean that "Frankish" or "Greek" is a good name for either communion. The rite of Constantinople has its roots in Syria. Should the Orthodox be called "Syrians" as well?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 01:58:23 PM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

But we are all Romans.

Nonsense.

How is it nonsense?
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2013, 02:49:21 PM »
Btw, we should completely disown the term "Byzantine."

I agree, and I think the same goes for 'Greek'. However, as long as those two terms are commonly used as synonyms for 'Roman', it is perfectly possible to refer to the Orthodox Church as 'Greek' without thereby implying or believing that this has anything to do with its ethnic make-up.

Should the Orthodox be called "Syrians" as well?

The Church which follows the Syrian liturgical rite is called the Syrian Orthodox Church, even though the vast majority of its members are Indian. I see no problem with that. Sadly, we lost that liturgical rite under Patriarch Balsamon.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2013, 02:52:18 PM »
Indo-European would also be accurate, and a less divisive and more ecumenical term...  who says linguists should get to hog it?
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2013, 02:53:49 PM »
Not all EO are "Greeks". The vast majority is non-Greek.

But we are all Romans.

Nonsense.

How is it nonsense?

Even in the most tolerant days of the Byzantine Empire one should have been (1) Orthodox and (2) a speaker of Greek to be considered a Roman. Do you speak Greek?


Should the Orthodox be called "Syrians" as well?

The Church which follows the Syrian liturgical rite is called the Syrian Orthodox Church, even though the vast majority of its members are Indian. I see no problem with that. Sadly, we lost that liturgical rite under Patriarch Balsamon.

The Byzantine Liturgy does have its roots in Syria
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 02:55:47 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2013, 03:02:18 PM »
The Byzantine Liturgy does have its roots in Syria

Yes, but the cathedral rite that developed in the Empire's capital became quite distinct from what remained the norm in Syria.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2013, 03:04:04 PM »
The Byzantine Liturgy does have its roots in Syria

Yes, but the cathedral rite that developed in the Empire's capital became quite distinct from what remained the norm in Syria.

Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox? Where the rite comes from shouldn't decide the name of the entire Church. IMO it is silly to call some Siberian peasants "Greeks".
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 03:04:48 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2013, 03:05:37 PM »
It's fairly common for our people to refer, in English, to the EO collectively as "the Greeks".  It's simplistic and technically inaccurate for a few reasons, but it's a shorthand.  It's like how native Greeks, upon hearing I'm OO and having it explained to them what that is, call me a Copt, or how native Russians have called me Armenian.  Well, no...but I get it.  

Back to the OP, in the only cases I know of where an OO switched to EO (or where an EO switched to OO for that matter), the reasons were more "pastoral" than "theological".  So it wasn't a "change" the way it would be if a Baptist became Orthodox.  For lack of a better word, it was more of a "transfer".  

That said, I'm not sure where Extreme Copt's question is coming from or even what he's really after.  There's always some faction of every Church which feels they are right, others are wrong, and everyone else should join them.  But you don't decide these things based on who screams the loudest.  Maybe s/he can explain a bit more what they're interested in?  At least that way we can get past the tangent about "Greeks".  :)    
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 03:05:59 PM »
The Byzantine Liturgy does have its roots in Syria

Yes, but the cathedral rite that developed in the Empire's capital became quite distinct from what remained the norm in Syria.

Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox?

Neither. We are Catholics.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2013, 03:13:10 PM »
Neither. We are Catholics.

This is, of course, the most accurate answer.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2013, 03:16:42 PM »
Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox?

Well, that is what the term Melkite essentially means :)

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2013, 03:17:50 PM »
Neither. We are Catholics.

This is, of course, the most accurate answer.

If accurate means confusing, then absolutely.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »
Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox?

Well, that is what the term Melkite essentially means :)

That's what I thought while typing it but I was too lazy to make up a new name  :)

The Byzantine Liturgy does have its roots in Syria

Yes, but the cathedral rite that developed in the Empire's capital became quite distinct from what remained the norm in Syria.

Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox?

Neither. We are Catholics.

That was a rhetorical question. But you answered it as I hoped you'd answer it.

And yes, let's get back to topic.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 03:27:23 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »
Back to the OP, in the only cases I know of where an OO switched to EO (or where an EO switched to OO for that matter), the reasons were more "pastoral" than "theological".  So it wasn't a "change" the way it would be if a Baptist became Orthodox.  For lack of a better word, it was more of a "transfer".

This is the case with the sizable Habesha (Ethiopian/Eritrean) community back home in northern California. They're relatively new in such large numbers (really began to be established about 15-20 years ago, maybe), and there are no OO churches of any kind in the area, being the southernmost tip of the historic Russian empire and all. That being the case, they all go to the local OCA and Bulgarian churches. I do not inquire as to the particulars of the agreement that brought them there, but I do notice that the local Ethiopian restaurant, if it's anything to go by (and it seems to be, as it is where you'll often find local Ethiopians eating, sometimes even women in their netelas, with big cross tattoos and the whole bit that you could find in rural highland Ethiopia), still has large Coptic/Ethiopian style crosses hung up in its kitchen, and large pictures of the St. George's church in Lalibela (one of the rock-hewn churches that made that site world famous) hung up in the main dining area. So I think it's true: Whether or not they are 'officially' EO or OO, they don't seem to have abandoned their OO faith so much as found some level of agreement with the local EO that allows them to worship and commune there, since they don't have their own churches.

It makes visits to the local OCA church much more interesting, that's for sure. ;)

Offline sheenj

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2013, 03:49:18 PM »
FYI, there are actually 2 Indian Orthodox Churches in the NoCal area, one in Union City and another in Sacramento.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 03:50:31 PM by sheenj »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2013, 03:59:28 PM »
The area I'm talking about is much further north than that, but thank you. That's good to know if I'm ever in either of those locations. I've never been to an Indian Orthodox church, but I would love to go. :)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2013, 07:37:12 PM »
The Byzantine Liturgy does have its roots in Syria

Yes, but the cathedral rite that developed in the Empire's capital became quite distinct from what remained the norm in Syria.

Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox? Where the rite comes from shouldn't decide the name of the entire Church. IMO it is silly to call some Siberian peasants "Greeks".

I think you're viewing this too narrowly and literally. "Roman" for Orthodox, is a generalization.
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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2013, 08:53:57 PM »
To the EO's who are debating what to call yourselves:

I really do like you guys, and it's an interesting conversation, but it's way off topic.  I'd appreciate it if you can take the debate elsewhere.  If you guys want, I can split off the posts relevant to that topic and make it into another thread somewhere else.

Thanks,
Salpy

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2013, 07:06:29 AM »
To the EO's who are debating what to call yourselves:

I really do like you guys, and it's an interesting conversation, but it's way off topic.  I'd appreciate it if you can take the debate elsewhere.  If you guys want, I can split off the posts relevant to that topic and make it into another thread somewhere else.

Thanks,
Salpy


I think we're done :)

To the OP, I know a few OO who have become EO. The Copts I know became EO for practical reasons (no Coptic church nearby, they married an EO, or they wanted to join an EO monastery), but did not regard it as a change of faith, more as a change of jurisdictions, though they are aware that their decision to 'move' means they are no longer able to Commune in the Coptic Church.

The Ethiopians/Eritreans I know seem less aware of the implications of the schism, and in most cases continue to consider themselves members of the Tewahido Church although they attend and commune at EO churches, for practical or ethnic reasons (many Eritreans prefer to attend Greek churches than Ethiopians ones because of the nationalist tensions between Ethiopia and Eritrea).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 07:10:58 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2013, 07:28:07 AM »
Very well. Should the Orthodox now be called Imperial Orthodox or Palace Orthodox?

Well, that is what the term Melkite essentially means :)

lol that's what I grew up hearing EOs referred to as: the Melekites, if one still does not get the reference someone will say ' you know, the Greeks' as if that explains everything, needless to say that it is not said in compliment.
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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 07:45:46 AM »
as to the Eritreans/Ethiopians , in the cases where there are one of the Churches available close by, it has to do with the political tension between each other, that some would go to a Russian Orthodox Church before they go to the Eritrean or the Ethiopian one. such is the nature of politics.Some are not aware of the schism that exists and for some that do know, the similarity they see is enough along with the word Orthodox to make them comfortable to attend the services and not stay at home on the Christian Sabbath. what you wont find them is attending a Roman Catholic Church, that's just too far out for everyone to consider it. so its stay at home Sunday in such cases. lol

In the city I live in here in the US,a Roman Catholic Church, quite generously allowed us to use one of its halls to hold Sunday services and there were people who used that as a motivational factor to quickly buy a church of our own lol
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 07:51:14 AM »
It's fairly common for our people to refer, in English, to the EO collectively as "the Greeks".  It's simplistic and technically inaccurate for a few reasons, but it's a shorthand.  It's like how native Greeks, upon hearing I'm OO and having it explained to them what that is, call me a Copt, or how native Russians have called me Armenian.  Well, no...but I get it.  

Back to the OP, in the only cases I know of where an OO switched to EO (or where an EO switched to OO for that matter), the reasons were more "pastoral" than "theological".  So it wasn't a "change" the way it would be if a Baptist became Orthodox.  For lack of a better word, it was more of a "transfer".  

That said, I'm not sure where Extreme Copt's question is coming from or even what he's really after.  There's always some faction of every Church which feels they are right, others are wrong, and everyone else should join them.  But you don't decide these things based on who screams the loudest.  Maybe s/he can explain a bit more what they're interested in?  At least that way we can get past the tangent about "Greeks".  :)    

well said Mor Ephrem!
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2013, 07:20:50 AM »
Btw, we should completely disown the term "Byzantine."  Those in submission to the Vatican can have if they want

Why thank you. :) Although I'm not so sure about your last statement:

-after all, the Vatican's flock invented it.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2013, 07:26:08 AM »
as to the Eritreans/Ethiopians , in the cases where there are one of the Churches available close by, it has to do with the political tension between each other, that some would go to a Russian Orthodox Church before they go to the Eritrean or the Ethiopian one. such is the nature of politics.Some are not aware of the schism that exists and for some that do know, the similarity they see is enough along with the word Orthodox to make them comfortable to attend the services and not stay at home on the Christian Sabbath. what you wont find them is attending a Roman Catholic Church, that's just too far out for everyone to consider it. so its stay at home Sunday in such cases. lol

Upon reading ^^ this, I was going to ask "What about a parish of the Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Church?" But then it occurred to me that you're talking about areas where there's no OO parish, which means there almost certainly wouldn't be an Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic church either.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Orientals who became Eastern
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2013, 09:11:15 AM »
Should the Orthodox be called "Syrians" as well?

The Church which follows the Syrian liturgical rite is called the Syrian Orthodox Church, even though the vast majority of its members are Indian. I see no problem with that. Sadly, we lost that liturgical rite under Patriarch Balsamon.

Do you have a link for further info on that? Wikipedia says that he was born in Constantinople and "In 1193 he became the Patriarch of Antioch, though he remained resident in Constantinople." which certainly fits with what you're saying but it doesn't go into it. (Or instead of a link would it be better if we start a thread on the topic?)

Btw, I've seen the term "Syro-Byzantine" (but not very often) used in place of "Antiochian".
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)