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Author Topic: Genocide denied again  (Read 3449 times) Average Rating: 0
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Salpy
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« on: January 29, 2005, 01:02:01 AM »

This sort of thing really frustrates me:

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2005/01/CADFADD6-921B-4B2D-96CB-5E90B3E3AA0E.ASP

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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2005, 01:23:47 AM »

Those turks. UGH. Where did all the Armenians go? Into a puff of smoke?

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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2005, 01:29:00 AM »

Do German schools teach their students about the infamous role their countrymen played in the Second World War?  Or is that ignored as well? 
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2005, 12:06:54 PM »

Dear Salpy,

As an descendent of those who fled our historic homeland to escape certain death (my Great-Grandmother's entire village was burned to the ground and my Great-Grandfather was dressed up as a woman and led out of the village on horseback to escape), I naturally have shared your frustration. If I may share this, this web-page has become my way of over-coming this frustration through Christ:

http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/genocide.html

For me, Dr. Guroian's essay says it all.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 12:11:28 PM by Ghazaros » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2005, 12:14:49 PM »

If that ignorant, arrogant nation of Turkey wants to join the European Union, they should be forced to build monuments to the slaughtered Armenians and Greeks and recognize that they, the Turks, actually did commit these horrendous atrocities.
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2005, 02:23:05 PM »

The Turks also deney the murders that the Young Turks commited against the Mount Lebanon Christians and Christians all throgh out their empire. Jemal Pasha anyone? The Turks seem to selectivly want to be European. We want the euro and the economic ties of the West but we do not want historical acuracy. They even still occupy land expropriated from Syria by the French as if it is rightfully theirs!
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At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2005, 04:04:46 PM »

Dear Ibrahim,

They have 15/16th of our former land, :)including the most famous mountain of Armenia, Mount Ararat, which has been host to our monasteries since the dawn of Christianity in the Near East. But these are all political considerations. There comes a time in a Christian's life that the harbored pain has to be dealt with in the light of Christ. This is what I attempt to do on that web-page. We all must do this in our own way, always trusting in the light of Christ for healing.

But this is not at all to deny the place for the work of upholding of truth, as our sister Salpy is doing. The fact that political considerations has led to a denial of the truth in Germany is certainly sad. This is not the first time (even in Germany) that truth has been surpressed for politics. It happens in the U.S. as well (which is why the last attempt to Nationally acknowledge the Genocide was defeated). Turkey is our political ally.  Our nation, like most, is more interested in self-serving political alliances than it is defence of the truth.  Not only this, here we are killing 1.5 million of our own children every year, and treat this as a basic human right. Lets face it, politicians and governments are not our source of truth. This doesn't mean we can't hope and expect them to be. Only, we should never be shocked or driven into despair when politicians and governments refuse to tell the truth.  We know it is only the truth which will set us free.  Jesus Christ is that Truth and the Way and the Life.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 04:26:45 PM by Ghazaros » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2005, 04:26:01 PM »

Thanks, Ghazaros, for the link.

Has anyone read this article posted by Fr. Serfes:

http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

It details what happened to eastern Christians in the 20th century. It amazes me that no one talks about the tens of millions of Christians slaughtered in the past century. I remember lurking on a Protestant forum where one person remarked about how Christians have not been persecuted since the 3rd or 4th century. No one corrected him. Why isn't this history taught? What can we do to see to it that more people become aware of what happened?

Ghazaros is right that we must ask Christ to heal our wounds and keep us from resentment and anger. However, we need to remember what happened and let the world know. Otherwise, it just keeps happening. It is not like the persecution of Christians in the east has stopped. Look at what is happening in Kosovo and Egypt. The few Christians left in Turkey are also still living in a very hostile environment. Also, since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the churches there have been bombed.

Anyway, I don't want to seem like a whiner. I know this is a topic which has probably been run through several times on this and other forums. I just get frustrated sometimes. I guess I should pray about it more.
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2005, 04:35:15 PM »

Thanks for the reference, Ghazaros. Touching. Looking on the suffering of all the christian churches along history, it reminds us with the words of Christ about the persecution we will have to go through.

As for history, it has to be taught, but who will teach it ? Isn't the education department,,the media that publishes books and broadcasts documentaries, part of the World, and the World in the hand of Satan ? Aren't these human beings in the end, corrupt and  greedy to oil money ? There is no justice in this World, not even in the West. Those who raise an eyebrow at the possible inclusion of Turkey into the EU have really no reason to be surprised.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2005, 04:46:09 PM »

Starvo and Salpy,

I agree with you both. Salpy is right that it is a noble task of Christians to work for truth in hopes of preventing the suffering, persecution and murder of all innocent life. Governments are not first and foremost concerned with truth. They are more concerned with self-preservation. Turkey is a political ally of the U.S. as well as it is with Germany. And this is the precise reason Bill Clinton stifiled the Bill being moved through Congress to recognize the Genocide. Bush promised to recognize it but has never followed through either. As Starvo says, this might be dissapointing, but for Christians should never be surprising. While with Salpy we should work for the truth, we should never become despaired if governments won't adopt it. Christ said the truth would set us free. As Christians, we have been set free and are no longer enslaved to lies. Therefore we have no reason to despair because we know, in the end, Truth will triumph!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 05:28:39 PM by Ghazaros » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2005, 08:20:31 PM »

I understand that we all must try our utmost to make the world a humane, forgiving environment. It's also true that Turkey is under control of governments completely different from sultanates.

However, when a country lies and covers its many sins, then that nation should be scrutinized much more than nations that are very open and apologetic toward their past. Turkey is denying its very evils; can you even fathom if Germany denied the Holocaust?

I admire Turkey; in the face of extreme Islam, that nation stands as a beacon of promise and progress. They have shown us that a majority-Moslem nation can exist as a democracy. However, it is not deserving of membership in the European Union, or other organizations, if they lie and cover up their atrocious past, especially against the  Armenian and Greek victims and martyrs, may God rest their souls.

God bless.
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2005, 03:59:22 AM »

Dear Byzantine Serb,

I can't at all argue with your observations. But I'm talking about how a Christian deals with the interior pain and near despair knowing his entire people were brutilized and nearly annihilated. I don't know if your Church has yearly memorials for those murdered by the Turks, but the memorials I attend in my Church do little to offer interior healing or a Christian perspective to all of this. Typically they do nothing but tear open the wounds on a yearly basis. Surely Christ can heal us of this pain if we allow Him?

Yes, we can call for Turkey to admit its forefathers sin's, but it may never. Our we going to allow ourselves to continually harbor the pain, hatred and bitterness which only stiffles our relationship with God and others? Perhaps our Churches treat this question differently. But currently my Church is not offering the healing of Christ its people need to spiritually overcome this despair. And it is the Church which is really the only real possible place to receive this healing. Whether Turkey ever repents/admits or not, my own Church needs to move its victims out of the category of the murdered into the category of the martyred: to make their deaths meaningful. We need to understand their deaths not as any pagan or athiest would, but as a true Christian should. After 90 years, this still has not happened. I wish I could express this better. Perhaps if you read Dr. Guroian's essay on the above web-page you could understand my point better. But I certainly acknowledge politically what you and others are saying.

p.s.  Thanks, Salpy, for the excellent web-page on the history of the martyrs.  This is very well written and informitive.  I will place a link to this on my Genocide web-page.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 04:14:15 AM by Ghazaros » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2005, 05:39:26 AM »

Quote
Do German schools teach their students about the infamous role their countrymen played in the Second World War? Or is that ignored as well?

According to what I have heard from my sister (who goes to school in Germany) there isn't outright holocaust denial in Germany.... it is just sort of not talked about much.  It is sort something everyone knows but doesn't talk about because of guilt/shame. 

But... she did visit Dachau a few months back and said it was nothing like American holocaust museums (or indoctrination programs at public schools) in that all the victims of the Hitler were remembered there.  There was a memorial for many of the Pole (non-Jewish) that died in the camps.  There was also a memorial for the Serbian and Russian POWs killed by Hitler. 

Here is a link to her pictures at Dachau http://community.webshots.com/album/219020446TgGgrz
Here are some pictures of the Orthodox Chapel at Dachau:
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2005, 01:37:18 PM »

The iconography of the chapel is amazing. It is individual to the chapel and it is obvious that it deals with the span of human anguish as experienced by Christ, but is completed in the Resurrection triumphant. The angles are strange because they were taken from the doorway; the chapel is kept locked behind an iron gate.

In order:

The Christ to the right of the altar is scourged and dressed for crucifixion. On the far wall is the betrayal by Judas.
The Theotokos to the left of the altar is weeping. On the far wall is the Garden of Gethsemene.
High above the altar is the King of Glory.
Directly above the altar is Christ resurrected, breaking open the gates of Dachau and leading the prisoners to freedom.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2005, 01:37:50 PM »

OK, the board is telling me the upload folder is full....I'll have the pics for you when it lets me add them.
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2005, 04:24:04 PM »

try now. i cleared upload folder.

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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2005, 06:18:15 PM »

2
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2005, 06:18:56 PM »

3
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2005, 06:19:23 PM »

4
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2005, 07:15:53 PM »

This is really sad Salpy, and ironic, considering the fact that it is actually against German law to deny that Hitler's Holocaust never took place (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1466245,00.html).  Apparently, denying the Armenian Holocaust is not only permitted, but encouraged!
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2005, 09:09:38 PM »

Ghazaros,

I am glad you liked the webpage about the Christian martyrs of the 20th century.  I felt it was a good article in that it drove home the immensity of the slaughter of Christians that took place in the past 100 years, in the name of Islam, Communism, Facism, etc.

I think Armenians sometimes tend to concentrate a little too much on our own Genocide, as if the Armenians were the only people subjected to this sort of atrocity.  It is sort of like the attitude of the West with respect to the Holocaust.  We need to remember that we were just one of many Christian nations slaughtered for our faith.  I guess what I would like to see is more unity and cooperation among the various Eastern Christian groups in an effort to see that the atrocities of the past 100 years be remembered and that the persecution of Christians come to an end.

As some people have observed, we do live in an evil world and I am probably being unrealistic in wanting this to happen.  However, I don't believe it would hurt if we were to try. 
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2005, 11:46:16 PM »

Those are nice pictures Choirfiend, thanks for posting them.   Smiley

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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2005, 08:11:06 PM »

Hey, isn't the Memorial Day for the Armenian Genocide in April?
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2005, 09:35:23 PM »

April 24 is the day Armenians commemorate the Genocide. April 24, 1915, was an Easter Sunday (old calendar.) That was the day the Turks picked to begin the slaughter.
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