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DanM
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« on: July 18, 2013, 07:50:42 PM »

To anyone who might know someone:
I studied a little Greek in college (2 years past 1st?).  I later read roughly half of the Anabasis, about the first eight books of Homer, all of Matthew and all of Mark.  I have been translating canons from the Greek for a while, but need an editor, preferably one familiar with the amazing quirks of ecclesiastical Greek.  At some point I hope to make them into a book(let).  Right now I am simply filling in the spaces--translating canons to saints which have some recognition (e.g., Sts. Raphael, Nicholas and Irene) but no English-language canon or service.  My last editor, who has disappeared to Albania, said my Greek was fine, but needed to be tidied up here and there.  I at any rate am traumatized by passages which include words not found in the Great Scott, Lampe or Sophocles.  If anyone is interested in this impecunious but noble proposition, please let me know.
Thanks, DanM
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 06:22:02 AM »

Why would you translate those canons? How much needs to be done?

I might know someone with experience in Ecclesiastical Greek.
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 08:46:54 AM »

Thanks for moving this topic--I did not know better.
My first reason for translating these canons was to say them.  I felt very connected with St. Dionysios of Zakynthos and was annoyed to discover that no one had put his canon into English.  Canons mean a lot to me.  I could not imagine living without them. 
My second reason was to make it possible for others to say them.  E.g., one of the members of my parish has St. Ephraim of Nea Makri for a patron, but no canon for him!  How sad is that?
There is no end of canons that need to be done.  I have probably translated about a dozen, with about a dozen more that in my sights.  These are all canons to saints which are of some special interest to me.  Then I will go after those saints whose namesakes in my parish who have no canons in English.  Finally, I have four services to complete.
The problems I have with translating begins with the fact that the Greek which I am used to reading is very polished, but these texts are unpolished to the point of being crabbed.  A lot of words are horribly post-Classical; a modern Greek dictionary can be helpful.  I suspect that the authors of some of these canons did not know Classical Greek; they went about the business the same way you and I would if we had to "translate" English into a language we had taken for a year in high school.  Some texts have so many vocabulary issues I simply do not touch them--the canon to St. Sophia of Kleisura, e.g., breaks my heart.
Thanks, Dan
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 09:41:15 AM »

"I have probably translated about a dozen, with about a dozen more that in my sights" should read "I have probably translated about a dozen, with about a dozen more in my sights."
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »

Have you tried A Patristic Greek Lexicon by Lampe? You might find those words there.
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 11:10:00 AM »

Have you tried A Patristic Greek Lexicon by Lampe? You might find those words there.

I use Great Scott, Lampe and Sophocles, a number of modern Greek dictionaries, Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich and the LXX lexicon.  I am unhappy with my modern Greek dictionaries, since they are all pretty small.  Anyway, what I really need is a Katharevousa lexicon. 
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 12:08:01 PM »

I find recent Greek hymnography relatively easy to translate. The language is so typical, that once you've translated a couple of services or canons, you don't really need a dictionary anymore. 

If you get stuck on a certain word or phrase, I'd be glad to help. I have some experience with translating such texts into Romanian: the services of St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Andrew the Fool for Christ, St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, various Parakleseis, etc. 
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 12:34:06 PM »

I thank you heartily.  I will be posting puzzling words and phrases and what.


I find recent Greek hymnography relatively easy to translate. The language is so typical, that once you've translated a couple of services or canons, you don't really need a dictionary anymore. 

If you get stuck on a certain word or phrase, I'd be glad to help. I have some experience with translating such texts: the services of St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Andrew the Fool for Christ, St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, various Parakleseis, etc. 
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 08:22:48 PM »

DanM, a word of caution: If you haven't done so already, please get a blessing to do these translations from your priest or bishop. At any rate, your (or anyone else's, for that matter) translations will need formal episcopal vetting and approval before they are to be used liturgically or published in, say, a prayer book, or a book on the life of the saint.

The work of a hymnographer (or a translator) is no less serious a responsibility as that of an iconographer. Both must be scrupulous in properly and faithfully expressing and transmitting truth.
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 12:06:37 AM »

Right.  I have my priest's blessing.  Should I ever publish, he will surely guide me through the episcopal channels.  Thanks.


DanM, a word of caution: If you haven't done so already, please get a blessing to do these translations from your priest or bishop. At any rate, your (or anyone else's, for that matter) translations will need formal episcopal vetting and approval before they are to be used liturgically or published in, say, a prayer book, or a book on the life of the saint.

The work of a hymnographer (or a translator) is no less serious a responsibility as that of an iconographer. Both must be scrupulous in properly and faithfully expressing and transmitting truth.
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 05:16:38 AM »

Right.  I have my priest's blessing.  Should I ever publish, he will surely guide me through the episcopal channels.  Thanks.


DanM, a word of caution: If you haven't done so already, please get a blessing to do these translations from your priest or bishop. At any rate, your (or anyone else's, for that matter) translations will need formal episcopal vetting and approval before they are to be used liturgically or published in, say, a prayer book, or a book on the life of the saint.

The work of a hymnographer (or a translator) is no less serious a responsibility as that of an iconographer. Both must be scrupulous in properly and faithfully expressing and transmitting truth.

Just to clarify, episcopal vetting should be done before the publication process (either as hard copy, or online) is begun.  police
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 04:05:31 PM »

I find recent Greek hymnography relatively easy to translate. The language is so typical, that once you've translated a couple of services or canons, you don't really need a dictionary anymore. 

If you get stuck on a certain word or phrase, I'd be glad to help. I have some experience with translating such texts into Romanian: the services of St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Andrew the Fool for Christ, St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, various Parakleseis, etc. 

I am currently translating the Supplicatory Canon to St. Gerasimos.  The Ode V irmos is Ina ti me apwsw.  I suppose that could mean "So that I may drive something from me" (dupl. acc.).  Naturally I am curious about the rest of that irmos, since the fragment is not self-explanatory.  Any clues?
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 04:20:30 PM »

The Heirmos is from Fifth Ode of the Great Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos:

Ίνα τι με απώσω, από του προσώπου σου το φως το άδυτον, και εκάλυψέ με, το αλλότριον σκότος τον δείλαιον; Αλλ' επίστρεψόν με, και προς το φως των εντολών σου, τας οδούς μου κατεύθυνον δέομαι.

Why (what for) have You cast me away from the all-holy light of Your countenance; and [why] has the outer darkness enshrouded me, the unfortunate one? Yet, now I beseech You: convert me and direct my ways to the light of Your precepts.

Hina ti is an interrogation:  ἵνα τί ἐγκατέλιπές με; - "Why have you forsaken me?" (Ps. 21)
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 04:29:01 PM »

Hina ti is an interrogation:  ἵνα τί ἐγκατέλιπές με; - "Why have you forsaken me?" (Ps. 21)

That's weird.
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2013, 04:29:26 PM »

To anyone who might know someone:
I studied a little Greek in college (2 years past 1st?).  I later read roughly half of the Anabasis, about the first eight books of Homer, all of Matthew and all of Mark.  I have been translating canons from the Greek for a while, but need an editor, preferably one familiar with the amazing quirks of ecclesiastical Greek.  At some point I hope to make them into a book(let).  Right now I am simply filling in the spaces--translating canons to saints which have some recognition (e.g., Sts. Raphael, Nicholas and Irene) but no English-language canon or service.  My last editor, who has disappeared to Albania, said my Greek was fine, but needed to be tidied up here and there.  I at any rate am traumatized by passages which include words not found in the Great Scott, Lampe or Sophocles.  If anyone is interested in this impecunious but noble proposition, please let me know.
Thanks, DanM

You wouldn't also happen to be trying to preserve the meter of the hymns in translation so that they can be sung to the melody of the hiermoi (basically every English-speaking chanter's dream), would you?
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2013, 04:34:27 PM »

Hina ti is an interrogation:  ἵνα τί ἐγκατέλιπές με; - "Why have you forsaken me?" (Ps. 21)

That's weird.

Semitic: la-ma? ~ to what end? what for?

Cf. Heb. Eli, eli lama azavtani? (Aram. Eli, eli, lama sabachtani?)

In Greek there's also causal ὅ-τι. In Modern Greek you'd ask/answer with γιατί (<διά τι).
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2013, 04:41:19 PM »

I usually come across πρός τί.
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2013, 11:05:57 PM »


You wouldn't also happen to be trying to preserve the meter of the hymns in translation so that they can be sung to the melody of the hiermoi (basically every English-speaking chanter's dream), would you?
[/quote]

Absolutely not.  The difficulties of translating Greek into English--and frequently a Greek which is hardly Greek--are great enough.  You must have noticed how easily Russian melodies suit English language liturgies, and how badly Greek melodies fit English language liturgies.  I faint at the heroism and brilliance necessary for preserving the meter. 
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2013, 11:11:25 PM »

Hina ti is an interrogation:  ἵνα τί ἐγκατέλιπές με; - "Why have you forsaken me?" (Ps. 21)

That's weird.

Yet I have seen it before and forgot it.  I am so used to other constructions and have not studied enough Classical Greek to register that (as the Perseus Project Liddell-Scott reminds us) ἵνα τί is short for ἵνα τί γένηται (to what end?), which opens the door to "Why?"

THANKS to Romaios for reminding me of this.  I have some other questions which I will pose tomorrow.  I spent the whole day on this canon to St. Gerasimos--finished with a few rough spots!
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 01:16:44 PM »

a Greek which is hardly Greek

I would argue that there is no such thing - the weirdest modern dialect (maybe what the Pontic Greeks speak) is still a form of Greek. A purist approach to language is ridiculous (even ancient Greek literature was written in several dialects): it's what Renaissance humanists did with Latin by putting Cicero on a pedestal and chastising medieval Latin as corrupt. Well, the sequences of Notker Balbulus or the excellent sermons of St. Bernard of Clairvaux do not deserve that. They are truly beautiful. And so was the simple Koine of the NT, even if it failed to conform to Attic standards; and definitely so is our hymnography. Greek language and culture is a continuum which stretches all the way from Homer up to the demotic vernacular. What I find fascinating is how Fathers like St. Gregory the Theologian or even St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain (the 18th century!) could still write poetry in the Homeric dialect, or how our hymnographers composed canons in Iambic metre (see the Canon for Christmas Orthros). Ancient Greek is still a living language in Church.   
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2013, 03:33:45 PM »

TBH, Attic was always considered the standard of purity.
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2013, 03:58:47 PM »

Homer isn't Attic. Choral lyrical poetry, even in the middle of Attic dramas, is Doric. And so on.
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2013, 04:25:44 PM »

After the Classical Era anyone who pretended to be educated tried to imitate Attic Greek. Ionic (see De Dea Syria) wasn't used in serious literature anymore and neither was Doric. Atticising however remainded popular. Every sophist, historian or poet tried to imitate the Attic masters, especially when the Second Sophistic was in full swing. Even the Divine Liturgy attempts to atticize, although doesn't always succeed in that.
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2013, 06:52:24 PM »

Homer isn't Attic. Choral lyrical poetry, even in the middle of Attic dramas, is Doric. And so on.

Yup--I committed a snobbism.  Ignosce mi! 

Here is another puzzler from the Canon to St. Gerasimos which haunts my waking hours.  I hope you (and everybody else) won't be able to decipher it too quickly or I will feel silly.  Though if you take too long, my purpose is defeated.  Timing is important.

Your soul, all-blessed one, dwelt in the Heavens, while your body was on Earth, uparxon exaisia telei ta terastia, heal the diseases of our souls and bodies.

Obs.
1.  Uparxon:  nom./acc. n. sg. pres. act. ptc.  "Being."  Or 3rd pl. impf. "became, were."
2.  exaisia:  extraordinary.
3.  telei:  Perseus Project provides numerous parses for this perispomenon as verb and noun. 

So, one way to translate this is thus:  "wondrous were the miracles in their outcome."  What do you or anyone think? 
Thanks again.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2013, 07:08:06 PM »

το σώμα σου δε, τη γη υπάρχον, εξαίσια τελεί (present indicative, 3rd person singular of τελέω) τα τεράστια

Your body, being on earth, works/perfects (the) wondrous miracles.

So:

Η ση, παμμάκαρ, ψυχή τους ουρανούς εγκατώκησε, το σώμα σου δε, τη γη υπάρχον, εξαίσια τελεί τα τεράστια, ψυχών και σωμάτων θεραπεύον τα νοσήματα.

"Your soul, all-blessed one, has made its dwelling in the heavens, whereas your body {being on earth} works wondrous miracles on earth, healing the ailments of [many/our] souls and bodies."

Tip: sometimes commas are placed in a misleading manner in such texts, so there's no reason to feel silly. Also, I use Google to locate them - just type whatever it is you're looking for in Greek between inverted commas (monotonic accents usually suffice).
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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2013, 11:07:55 PM »

το σώμα σου δε, τη γη υπάρχον, εξαίσια τελεί (present indicative, 3rd person singular of τελέω) τα τεράστια

Your body, being on earth, works/perfects (the) wondrous miracles.

So:

Η ση, παμμάκαρ, ψυχή τους ουρανούς εγκατώκησε, το σώμα σου δε, τη γη υπάρχον, εξαίσια τελεί τα τεράστια, ψυχών και σωμάτων θεραπεύον τα νοσήματα.

"Your soul, all-blessed one, has made its dwelling in the heavens, whereas your body {being on earth} works wondrous miracles on earth, healing the ailments of [many/our] souls and bodies."

Tip: sometimes commas are placed in a misleading manner in such texts, so there's no reason to feel silly. Also, I use Google to locate them - just type whatever it is you're looking for in Greek between inverted commas (monotonic accents usually suffice).

I thank you again from the bottom of my heart.  What is it you use Google to locate?
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2013, 11:39:42 PM »

το σώμα σου δε, τη γη υπάρχον, εξαίσια τελεί (present indicative, 3rd person singular of τελέω) τα τεράστια

Your body, being on earth, works/perfects (the) wondrous miracles.

So:

Η ση, παμμάκαρ, ψυχή τους ουρανούς εγκατώκησε, το σώμα σου δε, τη γη υπάρχον, εξαίσια τελεί τα τεράστια, ψυχών και σωμάτων θεραπεύον τα νοσήματα.

"Your soul, all-blessed one, has made its dwelling in the heavens, whereas your body {being on earth} works wondrous miracles on earth, healing the ailments of [many/our] souls and bodies."

Tip: sometimes commas are placed in a misleading manner in such texts, so there's no reason to feel silly. Also, I use Google to locate them - just type whatever it is you're looking for in Greek between inverted commas (monotonic accents usually suffice).

I overlooked a few intransigents.  Could tas koras mean eyes?  If it does not, what on earth does it mean in Kataugason tas koras . . . ths psychhs mou mean?  "Shine on the ... of my soul," I know. 

And what is peporwmenas? 

Thanks again.
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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 04:39:05 AM »

I overlooked a few intransigents.  Could tas koras mean eyes?  If it does not, what on earth does it mean in Kataugason tas koras . . . ths psychhs mou mean?  "Shine on the ... of my soul," I know. 

And what is peporwmenas? 

Yes, κόραι are the pupils of the eyes, so you can safely translate with "eyes":

Όλον τόν βίον ο Τυφλός, νύκτα λογιζόμενος, εβόησε πρός σέ Κύριε, Ανοιξόν μου τάς κόρας, Υιέ Δαυϊδ, ο Σωτήρ ημών, ίνα μετά πάντων καγώ, υμνήσω σου τήν δύναμιν. (From the Lite of the Sunday of the Blind, Triodion)

So "enlighten" or "shine on the blinded eyes of my soul".

For πεπωρωμένας: "in Pass., become insensible, of the flesh, ὑπὸ τῆς πεπωρωμένης ἐκ τοῦ στέατος σαρκός Nymphis 16: metaph., become insensible, obtuse, or blind, of the heart, Ev.Marc.6.52, 8.17, Ep.Rom.11.7; πεπώρωνται γὰρ ἀπὸ ὀργῆς οἱ ὀφθαλμοί μου LXX Jb.17.7." (Liddell-Scott Lexicon)
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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 04:41:14 AM »

I thank you again from the bottom of my heart.  What is it you use Google to locate?

You're welcome!  Smiley

The texts of various Supplicatory Canons or Services in Greek. It's helpful because it offers other liturgical contexts in which a word occurs.
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« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2013, 09:03:12 AM »

I overlooked a few intransigents.  Could tas koras mean eyes?  If it does not, what on earth does it mean in Kataugason tas koras . . . ths psychhs mou mean?  "Shine on the ... of my soul," I know.  

And what is peporwmenas?  

Yes, κόραι are the pupils of the eyes, so you can safely translate with "eyes":

Όλον τόν βίον ο Τυφλός, νύκτα λογιζόμενος, εβόησε πρός σέ Κύριε, Ανοιξόν μου τάς κόρας, Υιέ Δαυϊδ, ο Σωτήρ ημών, ίνα μετά πάντων καγώ, υμνήσω σου τήν δύναμιν. (From the Lite of the Sunday of the Blind, Triodion)

So "enlighten" or "shine on the blinded eyes of my soul".

For πεπωρωμένας: "in Pass., become insensible, of the flesh, ὑπὸ τῆς πεπωρωμένης ἐκ τοῦ στέατος σαρκός Nymphis 16: metaph., become insensible, obtuse, or blind, of the heart, Ev.Marc.6.52, 8.17, Ep.Rom.11.7; πεπώρωνται γὰρ ἀπὸ ὀργῆς οἱ ὀφθαλμοί μου LXX Jb.17.7." (Liddell-Scott Lexicon)

Tibi multas gratias ago!  But where did you find out that koras could mean eyes?  I surmised that based on an ambiguous reference.  
Also, what is the lexical form of πεπωρωμένας?  Okay, now I see how to search Greek words on Google--last night my Greek words kept turning into nonsense in the search-box--so this business will become easier.  Still, when I searched For πεπωρωμένας, Google returned no canons--mostly texts by Chrysostom.  How did you manage to find canons?  
Also, the canon to St. Gerasimos unmistakably has the word as For πεπoρωμένας, whereas your references read For πεπωρωμένας.  So spelling, which has been an issue before, might be one here, too.  How did you know to look for the right spelling?
I really appreciate your patience and all your suggestions.  
Gratefully, DanM
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« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2013, 10:20:58 AM »

Tibi multas gratias ago!  But where did you find out that koras could mean eyes?  I surmised that based on an ambiguous reference.

Well, I knew that the etymology of Lat. pupilla ("little girl") is explained by Gk. κόρη (from the small image which is reflected in the eye - ἡ κόρη τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν, pupilla oculorum). Then I searched for it and the sticheron from the Sunday of the Blind confirmed what I suspected. (Btw it's in the Pentikostarion, not the Triodion, as I mistakenly wrote above).
 
Also, what is the lexical form of πεπωρωμένας?  Okay, now I see how to search Greek words on Google--last night my Greek words kept turning into nonsense in the search-box--so this business will become easier.  Still, when I searched For πεπωρωμένας, Google returned no canons--mostly texts by Chrysostom.  How did you manage to find canons? 

I searched for the entire phrase you submitted (between inverted commas): "καταύγασον τας κόρας της ψυχής μου". This canon came up first. As you can see, πεπωρωμένας is spelled correctly there. I knew the word  from osteo-porosis, peporomene kardia, etc. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 10:33:33 AM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2013, 10:41:45 AM »

Tibi multas gratias ago!  But where did you find out that koras could mean eyes?  I surmised that based on an ambiguous reference.

Well, I knew that the etymology of Lat. pupilla ("little girl") is explained by Gk. κόρη (from the small image which is reflected in the eye - ἡ κόρη τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν, pupilla oculorum). Then I searched for it and the sticheron from the Sunday of the Blind confirmed what I suspected. (Btw it's in the Pentikostarion, not the Triodion, as I mistakenly wrote above).
 
Also, what is the lexical form of πεπωρωμένας?  Okay, now I see how to search Greek words on Google--last night my Greek words kept turning into nonsense in the search-box--so this business will become easier.  Still, when I searched For πεπωρωμένας, Google returned no canons--mostly texts by Chrysostom.  How did you manage to find canons? 

I searched for the entire phrase you submitted (between inverted commas): "καταύγασον τας κόρας της ψυχής μου". This canon came up first. As you can see, πεπωρωμένας is spelled correctly there. I knew the word  from osteo-porosis, peporomene kardia, etc. 

I am deeply impressed and will follow your example assiduously.  When I distribute this canon, would you like to be referred to mysteriously as Romaios, or as "anonymous reviewer" or by your Ortho-name?
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« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2013, 10:56:29 AM »

When I distribute this canon, would you like to be referred to mysteriously as Romaios, or as "anonymous reviewer" or by your Ortho-name?

Thank you, but I don't want to be referred to at all. It's your work - my help was minimal.  Smiley





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« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2013, 10:34:28 PM »

This thread reminds me why I'm a lesser human being than the others here.  I forgot so much of my already minimal Greek! 
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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2013, 12:59:43 AM »

This thread reminds me why I'm a lesser human being than the others here.  I forgot so much of my already minimal Greek! 

The only way is constant review.  Language has the shelf-life of an open bottle of warm milk.  Yet it keeps one humble, as my Jewish professor used to say.
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2013, 11:29:39 PM »

Does anyone have any idea of how to translate koros in the following specimen?

Κόρος ου προσγίνεται, τοις σε τιμώσι Σπυρίδων Όσιε, Συ γαρ ημών, προστάτης και ρύστης, και τιμή και αντίληψης.
Koros [satiety?  Insolence?] does not come/happen to those who honor you, Saint Spyridon, for you are our champion and deliverer and honor and defender.

I have tried various lexica to no avail, besides a wonderful search engine of the Greek Bible Search at http://www.katabiblon.com/.
DanM

PS.  This morsel comes from a canon to St. Spyridon.
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« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2013, 12:05:40 AM »

Does anyone have any idea of how to translate koros in the following specimen?

Κόρος ου προσγίνεται, τοις σε τιμώσι Σπυρίδων Όσιε, Συ γαρ ημών, προστάτης και ρύστης, και τιμή και αντίληψης.
Koros [satiety?  Insolence?] does not come/happen to those who honor you, Saint Spyridon, for you are our champion and deliverer and honor and defender.

You've got the right idea with "satiety"/"excess": people can't have enough or are never tired ("sick") of praising/honouring you. The problem would be how to (re)phrase this appropriately in English. "No one can ever praise you exceedingly/enough" or "your praise can never exceed" perhaps. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:15:44 AM by Romaios » Logged
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