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« on: July 17, 2013, 06:42:17 PM »

Is it appropriate to depict God the Father in a image?...

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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 07:04:57 PM »

Michelangelo obviously thought so.

Christ said those who had seen him had seen the father.   John 14:9  ►

New International Version (©2011)
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 07:05:22 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 07:09:23 PM »

What non-Orthodox religious art does is one thing. It is not permitted in Orthodox iconography. There are several threads here where this matter has been discussed at very great length.
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 07:53:13 PM »

I was never directly aware of that, course now that I think of it I have never seen any in all the Greek Churches I have been in, which are many as I played Greek music in bands f or festivals all over the midwest and have seen the insides of most of them. 
And now that I think back there may have been a advanced sunday school class where that was discussed, but that was so long ago, I forgot about the issue.
Well I thank you , I learned something today.
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 10:35:12 PM »

There is the icon that is called "the trinity" and it depicts Jesus seated at the right hand of God and the Holy spirit. I dont know if its canonical or alowed. i also was under the inpression that God cannot be depicted.

BUT and this topics timeing and subject is perfect for what i saw last sunday.
I went to St. Nikolaos cathedral, in Tarpon springs florida, and while its been a while since i have been there i was noticing a few changes to the iconography on the side walls by the doors. acutually i think it has been completly redone on both side doorways. when i noticed the changes i started looking around for more changes, and i looked up on the dome (from inside) and realised thet Jesus is no longer depicted on the dome, it is now the immage of...........God!!!?
does anyoe know anything abt this. The church had a very diffrent vibe this sunday that i and my mother noticed. the priest was a lot more meek and or humble. he is usually kinda on the assertive side. they also had what i belive was a special icon of the virgin with child but i belive it is a russian icon. oh and they also had a large glass box with two bottles of holy water and what looked to be like a bone piece of saint Nikolas. would love more info on anhy of this if someone knows anything.
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2013, 10:49:37 PM »

There is the icon that is called "the trinity" and it depicts Jesus seated at the right hand of God and the Holy spirit. I dont know if its canonical or alowed. i also was under the inpression that God cannot be depicted.


Yes, such images exist, and many Orthodox churches and homes have them. However, such images are not proper, as they express false teachings about God the Father, and of the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2013, 11:19:40 PM »

 “Christ is the icon of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col 1:15)

That said then it is also God who we see when we look at an icon of Jesus.

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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 11:22:02 PM »

“Christ is the icon of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col 1:15)

That said then it is also God who we see when we look at an icon of Jesus.



Precisely.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 11:23:48 PM »

oh and they also had a large glass box with two bottles of holy water and what looked to be like a bone piece of saint Nikolas. would love more info on anhy of this if someone knows anything.

Those two bottles may be the "myrrh" which "sweats" from the relics of St Nicholas in Bari, Italy.  I don't know enough to write about it here, but information is available online.  About twelve years ago, I obtained two bottles of it from the shrine in Bari.  Back then, you could request it online; when I looked for it on their site last year, I couldn't find it.  

I presume the "myrrh" is diluted in water and that this water is what is distributed in bottles.  If the entire contents of the bottles are myrrh, well then I feel a lot more special.  Tongue  
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 05:34:58 AM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 05:44:08 AM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2013, 06:02:53 AM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.

Which part do you need justified? That Christ has two natures and is Theantropos, not anthropos?
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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2013, 07:05:47 AM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.

I'm sure Ioan can answer for himself, but here's just one Orthodox source, and there are many more I could quote from the inestimable St John of Damascus, other iconodule Fathers, and, of course, from the hymns of the Sunday of Orthodoxy:

Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.



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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 09:59:48 AM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.

Which part do you need justified? That Christ has two natures and is Theantropos, not anthropos?

I don't know about James, but I find the way you've expressed yourself at the end rather unclear.  Specifically this: "Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods)."  Well, sure, there was no mixing of divinity with humanity, but when you say "He ONLY united Himself with human nature", what do you mean by that?   
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2013, 10:07:20 AM »

Is it appropriate to depict God the Father in a image?...

It's not according to the canonical norms, but it can be found in some of our iconography.
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 10:16:47 AM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.



Which part do you need justified? That Christ has two natures and is Theantropos, not anthropos?

I don't know about James, but I find the way you've expressed yourself at the end rather unclear.  Specifically this: "Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods)."  Well, sure, there was no mixing of divinity with humanity, but when you say "He ONLY united Himself with human nature", what do you mean by that?   

I only meant to underline that there is no mixing with human nature (just union). I was trying to emphasize the fact that Christ has a distinct divine nature that leads the human. Humans don't have a divine nature, but are deified by God.  I know that human imagination is easily impressionable and it might start to think that Christ is actually some sort of hybrid of God and man, that His human nature adds something that His divine existence needs. However, I am not suggesting that His human nature is to be treated with disregard and is not worthy of being considered holy.
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2013, 06:15:00 PM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.



Which part do you need justified? That Christ has two natures and is Theantropos, not anthropos?

I don't know about James, but I find the way you've expressed yourself at the end rather unclear.  Specifically this: "Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods)."  Well, sure, there was no mixing of divinity with humanity, but when you say "He ONLY united Himself with human nature", what do you mean by that?   

I only meant to underline that there is no mixing with human nature (just union). I was trying to emphasize the fact that Christ has a distinct divine nature that leads the human. Humans don't have a divine nature, but are deified by God.  I know that human imagination is easily impressionable and it might start to think that Christ is actually some sort of hybrid of God and man, that His human nature adds something that His divine existence needs. However, I am not suggesting that His human nature is to be treated with disregard and is not worthy of being considered holy.

My biggest problem was your claim that "Christ is actually unseen, too."  Christ was unseen.  Christ cannot be described as unseen from the point of the Incarnation onward.
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2013, 08:41:34 PM »

No, because The Father is unseen. Christ is actually unseen, too; He is physical only by taking on human nature, as well. So, The Holy Trinity is only knowable noetically, can only be seen with the eyes of the soul. Depicting The Father takes one very far from The Truth. Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods).

I'd be interested in seeing you justify your understanding of the Incarnation, by appealing to Orthodox sources.



Which part do you need justified? That Christ has two natures and is Theantropos, not anthropos?

I don't know about James, but I find the way you've expressed yourself at the end rather unclear.  Specifically this: "Even icons of Christ should be approached as not to think that He is only human, or that He somehow mixed Himself with human nature (He only united Himself with human nature to teach us how be like Him, how to be gods)."  Well, sure, there was no mixing of divinity with humanity, but when you say "He ONLY united Himself with human nature", what do you mean by that?   

I only meant to underline that there is no mixing with human nature (just union). I was trying to emphasize the fact that Christ has a distinct divine nature that leads the human. Humans don't have a divine nature, but are deified by God.  I know that human imagination is easily impressionable and it might start to think that Christ is actually some sort of hybrid of God and man, that His human nature adds something that His divine existence needs. However, I am not suggesting that His human nature is to be treated with disregard and is not worthy of being considered holy.

My biggest problem was your claim that "Christ is actually unseen, too."  Christ was unseen.  Christ cannot be described as unseen from the point of the Incarnation onward.

He was unseen when he hid in the temple from the Jews wanting to stone him. Smiley

For the OP's question, what about icons of the trinity, that would depict the Father - more or less directly?
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 12:35:45 AM »


For the OP's question, what about icons of the trinity, that would depict the Father - more or less directly?

Have you not read all the posts in this thread?
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2013, 12:51:40 AM »

What one thinks of as the quintessential icon of the Holy Trinity, by St. Andrei Rublev, is not explicitly of the Holy Trinity, but of the Hospitality of Abraham. But St. Andrei used that theme and the understanding thereof to make an icon of the Holy Trinity. So it isn't, and yet it is, but it still isn't, and still is. Get it? Good.
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 04:04:22 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

All the laity, clergy, and even saints who pray before reproduced/cheap/whatever icons will be quite shocked to hear this. Some even use paper icons--no wood involved... what a scandal!  Kiss
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 11:54:28 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2013, 02:07:09 PM »

A real icon has historic value and usually belongs to a famous monastery. (Nizni Novgorod or Our Lady of Tikvin)

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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2013, 02:31:56 PM »

A real icon has historic value and usually belongs to a famous monastery. (Nizni Novgorod or Our Lady of Tikvin)

You really need to stop getting your theological information from the Greek Tourism Bureau.
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2013, 02:44:00 PM »

The icon of The Holy Trinity as angels, as they revealed themselves in The Old Testament, basically shows Christ in the posture of an angel. And we know that Christ is The Angel of Great Council (to the angels in heaven). I say this with regards to previous comments I made about Christ divine/spiritual nature. Also notable is that The Father and The Spirit appeared together with Christ, as angels as well, whereas They never revealed themselves as humans -- and this makes me think it is (among other things) because They are rather spirits than men (yet they are not angels either, but God, in reality).
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 05:28:40 PM »

You really need to stop getting your theological information from the Greek Tourism Bureau.

QFT

And start attending a church.
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 07:30:51 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.
Funny that this is an adequate defense for printed icons, but not for uncanonical ones.
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 07:38:48 PM »

A real icon has historic value and usually belongs to a famous monastery. (Nizni Novgorod or Our Lady of Tikvin)

You really need to stop getting your theological information from the Greek Tourism Bureau.

I think I would fit in (among people) in Greece.  Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 07:43:19 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.
Funny that this is an adequate defense for printed icons, but not for uncanonical ones.

The Church has, repeatedly and often, denounced certain imagery as uncanonical and unsuitable for veneration. The Church has never denounced printed icons of canonical content as unsuitable for veneration.
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2013, 07:44:36 PM »

A real icon has historic value and usually belongs to a famous monastery. (Nizni Novgorod or Our Lady of Tikvin)

You really need to stop getting your theological information from the Greek Tourism Bureau.

I think I would fit in (among people) in Greece.  Smiley

I doubt it. The vast majority of people there have only prints in their icon corners, and their churches have large numbers of printed icons.
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2013, 07:45:48 PM »

WPM is definitely my favorite poster on OC.net  police
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 09:49:15 PM »

Isn't it done with the Hospitality of Abraham?
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 09:52:13 PM »

Isn't it done with the Hospitality of Abraham?
They are in the form of angels, so it is not the Father in "original form."
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 09:55:58 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.

Telling the truth is not an insult
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 11:12:02 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.

Telling the truth is not an insult

Tell us why you think printed icons aren't "real". When I write about icons, I give my reasons. Time for you to explain and defend your position.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2013, 12:38:25 AM »

What one thinks of as the quintessential icon of the Holy Trinity, by St. Andrei Rublev, is not explicitly of the Holy Trinity, but of the Hospitality of Abraham. But St. Andrei used that theme and the understanding thereof to make an icon of the Holy Trinity. So it isn't, and yet it is, but it still isn't, and still is. Get it? Good.

Haha, I get it. Smiley   

What about icons such as these depicting God the Father?



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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2013, 12:44:17 AM »

What one thinks of as the quintessential icon of the Holy Trinity, by St. Andrei Rublev, is not explicitly of the Holy Trinity, but of the Hospitality of Abraham. But St. Andrei used that theme and the understanding thereof to make an icon of the Holy Trinity. So it isn't, and yet it is, but it still isn't, and still is. Get it? Good.

Haha, I get it. Smiley  

What about icons such as these depicting God the Father?







Yes, they exist, yesh. No, they are not canonical. Anyway, why do you care, with your attitude to icons?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 12:45:00 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2013, 01:40:31 AM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.
Funny that this is an adequate defense for printed icons, but not for uncanonical ones.

The Church has, repeatedly and often, denounced certain imagery as uncanonical and unsuitable for veneration. The Church has never denounced printed icons of canonical content as unsuitable for veneration.
Oh I very much agree, I find that a better defense.
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2013, 11:03:12 PM »

What one thinks of as the quintessential icon of the Holy Trinity, by St. Andrei Rublev, is not explicitly of the Holy Trinity, but of the Hospitality of Abraham. But St. Andrei used that theme and the understanding thereof to make an icon of the Holy Trinity. So it isn't, and yet it is, but it still isn't, and still is. Get it? Good.

Haha, I get it. Smiley  

What about icons such as these depicting God the Father?







Yes, they exist, yesh. No, they are not canonical. Anyway, why do you care, with your attitude to icons?

Nothing is in concrete brother.   I know it may make me sound like I suffer from multiple personality disorder.  LOL.   But I go to the depths of my arguments on other sections here on the forum.  Perhaps some would see it as I'm gushing out deep faith issues...  I think I see it as I seek answers because I haven't closed the door on EO.

If I return to the church someday, I want to do it knowing I left no stone unturned, that my questions are either answered, with peace, or put to rest. - and that's really the honest & fair way I can do it.  I don't know if it will happen, but obviously I've been on here for a while now.  Often reading more than posting.   When one of my questions goes to the limits and everybody wants to ring my neck, I try to take a break.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2013, 02:39:19 AM »

What one thinks of as the quintessential icon of the Holy Trinity, by St. Andrei Rublev, is not explicitly of the Holy Trinity, but of the Hospitality of Abraham. But St. Andrei used that theme and the understanding thereof to make an icon of the Holy Trinity. So it isn't, and yet it is, but it still isn't, and still is. Get it? Good.

Haha, I get it. Smiley  

What about icons such as these depicting God the Father?




Yes, they exist, yesh. No, they are not canonical. Anyway, why do you care, with your attitude to icons?

Nothing is in concrete brother.   I know it may make me sound like I suffer from multiple personality disorder.  LOL.   But I go to the depths of my arguments on other sections here on the forum.  Perhaps some would see it as I'm gushing out deep faith issues...  I think I see it as I seek answers because I haven't closed the door on EO.

If I return to the church someday, I want to do it knowing I left no stone unturned, that my questions are either answered, with peace, or put to rest. - and that's really the honest & fair way I can do it.  I don't know if it will happen, but obviously I've been on here for a while now.  Often reading more than posting.   When one of my questions goes to the limits and everybody wants to ring my neck, I try to take a break.  Wink

You've started, and/or contributed to, several threads where iconography is the theme. Many folks here have bent over backwards in providing answers to your questions, including ample refutations from history the writings of the Fathers, from scripture, and from the liturgical deposit, of your repeated refusal to accept icons as a proper and necessary part of Orthodox devotional practice.

Yet, in the face of all this evidence, you continue to reject icons and their veneration, most recently in the thread you yourself started.
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2013, 11:43:36 AM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.

Telling the truth is not an insult

Tell us why you think printed icons aren't "real". When I write about icons, I give my reasons. Time for you to explain and defend your position.

Gold Tempura eggshell paint adds the quality luxor touch
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 12:17:28 PM »

A real icon is about $700 dollars for a parish

Print icons are not real and are reproductions

Nonsense. If this were so, then what of the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas of Myra, which is a mounted print? It is one of innumerable miraculous icons that are mounted or framed prints. Your comment is also a huge insult to the countless Orthodox folks all over the world who have never had the chance to "own" painted icons.

Telling the truth is not an insult

Tell us why you think printed icons aren't "real". When I write about icons, I give my reasons. Time for you to explain and defend your position.

Gold Tempura eggshell paint adds the quality luxor touch

Whelp, I'm convinced.
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