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Author Topic: Go to Hell...Orthodox style  (Read 3957 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« on: July 17, 2013, 08:39:27 AM »

So as I'm sure many of you have noticed, there has been a somewhat raging debate with a resident gnostic here in regards to hell and how the Orthodox view it.  I posted the following in that thread and after a PM and some reflection, I would like to discuss further the Orthodox views on hell.  I figured I would post it in this sub-forum rather than in the gnostic thread, mostly because I want Orthodox view, not gnostic views. (and also that thread is quite caustic, my own posts included)  So my question for you all, do you think my responses were accurate in regards to Orthodox teachings, and is there more than one acceptable perspective on what hell is for the Orthodox?

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years? - Orthodoxy does not teach this

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs? - Orthodoxy does not teach this.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result? - Orthodoxy does not teach this.

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose? - Since none of your premises are taught by Orthodoxy, this question is moot.

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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 09:16:21 AM »

#1 in particular has long troubled me. The exact way that this is phrased can be argued over, but the main idea seems to hold: hell is something that seems terribly disproportionately harsh.
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 09:32:00 AM »


BUT...that soul chose to live "in sin" for those 120 years.  Nobody forced them to sin.

Especially those who "know" about Christ, and reject Him....or even worse, those who claim to follow Him, and purposefully break His commandments to suit their own greedy ends.

We have been taught all we need to know in order to achieve salvation.  We are free to work towards it, or purposefully fall way short of it. 

Mind you, we are all sinners...and we constantly sin and "miss the mark".  However, we are instructed to get back up and continue the journey.  It's when we give up, or when we decide it's not in our best interest...that we get ourselves in to trouble.



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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 09:37:35 AM »

BUT...that soul chose to live "in sin" for those 120 years.  Nobody forced them to sin.

Please see my post above.
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 09:40:21 AM »

The way I see it, we live our life on earth and develop our souls towards God or away from God.  After death, all souls are brought into the presence of God.  Some souls will enjoy and cherish that and some souls will despise that.  I would kind of liken it to going to the DL.  As someone who loves Orthodoxy, I enjoy being there.  For someone who is a devout atheist, he is going to find it boring and dreadfully dull. Another example would be like a someone running a long distance race.  Someone who has prepared for it will enjoy it.  Someone who has not will find it to be torture. Those who have developed themselves towards God obviously pray for those who despise Him and those prays we hope will be effectual in bringing them around. Heaven and Hell are therefore degrees of union or disunion with God.
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 09:46:00 AM »

That's because "reward/punishment" is a valid way of talking about it, but there is just so far that you can push the analogy before it stops making sense.

The real issue is: do you like the fact that you exist? Do you like reality as it actually is and not how you like to think it is?

Because that's the point. The Second Coming is a turn where no illusions will exist anymore. Even if you spent your whole life lying to yourself, you will see things as they really are. It's the arrival of Truth itself, after all.

If you hate reality, you'll hate it. If you love reality, you'll love it. People are not condemned into Hell. They struggle to be there.
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2013, 09:48:31 AM »

I don't believe in an endless judgement and torment without hope of redemption.  If hell is truly the souls relationship with God, I would imagine that that relationship can be dynamic and can be drawn to God through the prayers of the saints and that souls penitence.  That is not to say that all souls will be drawn, only that they can be.  Abraham told the rich man that if his brothers did not listen to the law and the prophets, they would not listen to a dead man risen from the grave. Some will have such hardness of heart that they will reject God regardless of the circumstances.  Even in that parable, the rich man never repented, he only sought relief.  I sometimes wonder how it would have ended if he had cried out: Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.  Would Abraham's response have been different?  Instead, he only complains about his torment and asks for relief.  As long as he has that mindset, the gulf is too great to be crossed.
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2013, 09:48:47 AM »

As far as I know, Orthodox teaches that God does not want anybody to be suffered. All the sufferings, including hell are the consequence of our sins.This is men's choice.Men themselves choose to reject God and to sin forever, so they would be suffered foreover.


Hell is eternal death. Men choose to separate themselves from God (the souce of life and all good) forever. Thus, they are in death and in suffering forever.
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 10:06:16 AM »

Quote
People are not condemned into Hell.

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 10:35:30 AM »

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People are not condemned into Hell.

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?

I think that it is not like a "legal" judgment, but more like a "medical" judgment. Not so much as if laws were broken, but if we were healed from the condition that caused us to sin.   Do we now see Christ in every person? Do we have the perfect love; the love of God and the love of man, the love for God and the love for man?  (All this being the same love).
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2013, 10:39:15 AM »

Quote
People are not condemned into Hell.

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?

I think that it is not like a "legal" judgment, but more like a "medical" judgment. Not so much as if laws were broken, but if we were healed from the condition that caused us to sin.   Do we now see Christ in every person? Do we have the perfect love; the love of God and the love of man, the love for God and the love for man?  (All this being the same love).

Maybe, but the scriptures still says that God shall judge. Here, it sounds more like we are judging ourselves.
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2013, 10:52:16 AM »

Quote
People are not condemned into Hell.

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?

I think that it is not like a "legal" judgment, but more like a "medical" judgment. Not so much as if laws were broken, but if we were healed from the condition that caused us to sin.   Do we now see Christ in every person? Do we have the perfect love; the love of God and the love of man, the love for God and the love for man?  (All this being the same love).

Maybe, but the scriptures still says that God shall judge. Here, it sounds more like we are judging ourselves.

But it can also sound like we are condemning ourselves. We are condemning ourselves by not following the path to God shown to us by Christ through His Church. The judgment is just reality, are we filled with the fullness of God?
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2013, 11:15:39 AM »

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?

Quote
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3.19
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 11:20:17 AM »

The thing is, what initially attracted me to Orthodoxy was just what you're saying, TheTrisagion.

But then more than once, right here in this forum, in the middle of all that fantastically loving and attractive theology about how we don't have to despair of anyone's salvation because Hell is medicinal and maybe not even forever, I've also been told that Roman Catholics may be the exception that proves the rule, because obviously those evil Romans can't be allowed to taint the blissful hereafter.

I'm paraphrasing, of course.  Cool
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2013, 11:25:41 AM »

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?

Quote
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3.19

Thank you. But what about the passages like this:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

 - Matthew 25:41
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 11:28:09 AM »

The thing is, what initially attracted me to Orthodoxy was just what you're saying, TheTrisagion.

But then more than once, right here in this forum, in the middle of all that fantastically loving and attractive theology about how we don't have to despair of anyone's salvation because Hell is medicinal and maybe not even forever, I've also been told that Roman Catholics may be the exception that proves the rule, because obviously those evil Romans can't be allowed to taint the blissful hereafter.

I'm paraphrasing, of course.  Cool
Well, I certainly would not take the opinions of the netodox as having any bearing on the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  In speaking with my priest and other holy individuals that I have met in Orthodoxy, I have never really heard any of them speak poorly of Roman Catholicism.  My priest has stated that apart from the Orthodox Church, he views RC as being closer to the fullness of truth than all other Christian groups.  He also sent his kids to our local Catholic school.  I know there are many out there who denigrate Catholics just like there are those Orthodox who advocate a weird sense of nationalism in Serbia, Greece, Russia, etc, but those are not the true teachings of Orthodoxy, just like a gay Vatican isn't a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.  There are just a minority of crazies who give a bad name to the rest of the Church.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2013, 11:30:58 AM »

Well, I certainly would not take the opinions of the netodox as having any bearing on the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  In speaking with my priest and other holy individuals that I have met in Orthodoxy, I have never really heard any of them speak poorly of Roman Catholicism.

I agree, most of the time that's true. However, the one time I actually plucked up the courage to speak with a priest about converting, he started out by saying he wasn't going to say anything bad about the RC, and then proceeded to do exactly that!  Shocked

Oh, and he said he had read my posts here at OC.net, which I found very interesting because I don't have any idea what his screen name is, and I had never told him mine. So if he's reading this, now he knows why I haven't been back to visit since.  Cool
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 11:36:12 AM »

Quote
Thank you. But what about the passages like this:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

 - Matthew 25:41
Can I also add one more verse to this question:  "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."  -- Matthew 10:28.
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 11:38:35 AM »


I'm of the opinion, and mind you, it's just MY opinion...that Hell IS a place, not only a state of being.

There are too many references of it being an actual location to dismiss it.

Same with paradise.  "Today you will be with me in Paradise."  Not, today you will enjoy the glory of God and bask in His everlasting love.
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2013, 11:50:23 AM »

Thank you. But what about the passages like this:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

 - Matthew 25:41

Of course, I don't reject that or other similar passages.  I think that we need to keep both "types" of passage in balance in order to understand what judgement is according to the Scriptures.  It's not simply the soul's attainment of a dispassionate enlightenment allowing him/her to realise that s/he doesn't measure up, and so s/he has to deal with it forever.  But neither is it a matter of some stark raving mad deity telling all the people he doesn't like to get the f___ out of his sight and burn forever.  He's neither Buddha nor Nero.  When we keep the seemingly different versions of judgement together, I think we'll have a better understanding of it than we would if we just picked an idea and ran with it.   
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2013, 12:07:52 PM »

This is a relevant and great blog post: http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/07/10/is-hell-real-2/
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2013, 12:39:58 PM »

So does Orthodoxy teach an eternal hell, or a more purgatorial type of hell? Because as these threads usually go, anyone espousing a more purgatorial hell are accused of Origenism.

So it SEEMS that the traditional eternal hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth with no hope of repentance IS the Orthodox position.
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2013, 12:54:43 PM »

Quote
People are not condemned into Hell.

This is something, I have been wondering about for some time. If Hell is a place chosen, if it is the Light of God, burning us because of our rejection of Him, how then, can we talk about the Final Judgement?

I think that it is not like a "legal" judgment, but more like a "medical" judgment. Not so much as if laws were broken, but if we were healed from the condition that caused us to sin.   Do we now see Christ in every person? Do we have the perfect love; the love of God and the love of man, the love for God and the love for man?  (All this being the same love).

Maybe, but the scriptures still says that God shall judge. Here, it sounds more like we are judging ourselves.

Not sure how much of this I buy, nor how much of it is theologically valid... but at least for this above part, one things that comes to mind is when Christ is saying "when did you visit me in prison? when did you do this and that?"  Our response then is sort of a self-justification or self-condemnation: in essence, judging ourselves. Sort of.
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2013, 01:00:25 PM »

This is a relevant and great blog post: http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/07/10/is-hell-real-2/

"St. Athanasius in his De Incarnatione, sees sin (and thus hell) as a movement towards “non-being.” The created universe was made out of nothing – thus as it moves away from God it is moving away from the gift of existence and towards its original state – non-existence. God is good, and does not begrudge existence to anything, thus the most creation can do is move towards non-being."

We are made to be having God's model "hardcoded" inside our being. Among its characteristics, the existence, the eternity and th freedom are listed. Therefore I believe the text above should refer to a movement towards a static position, a refusal of any noble activity that should make us Godlike (being together, in harmony) - this denial is actually the eternal death. However, I do not imagine how the condemned soul and later also body will be free in Hell and if it will be possible to get out or not some Ages after Judgment.

Anyways, even the great Theologists of the Church do not fully agree each other when they speak on this subject. So we can only imagine what is or will be there and only theoretically speaking about the possibilities of existence into the outside darkness...
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2013, 01:04:25 PM »

So does Orthodoxy teach an eternal hell, or a more purgatorial type of hell? Because as these threads usually go, anyone espousing a more purgatorial hell are accused of Origenism.

So it SEEMS that the traditional eternal hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth with no hope of repentance IS the Orthodox position.
I assume your referring to other threads? I haven't seen anyone bring up Origen's name yet in this thread.  I would say that the condemnation against Origenism that I have seen is primarily focused on those who say all WILL be reconciled to God, not all MAY be reconciled to God. The first destroys free will, the second preserves it.
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2013, 01:08:51 PM »

This is a relevant and great blog post: http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/07/10/is-hell-real-2/

"St. Athanasius in his De Incarnatione, sees sin (and thus hell) as a movement towards “non-being.” The created universe was made out of nothing – thus as it moves away from God it is moving away from the gift of existence and towards its original state – non-existence. God is good, and does not begrudge existence to anything, thus the most creation can do is move towards non-being."

We are made to be having God's model "hardcoded" inside our being. Among its characteristics, the existence, the eternity and th freedom are listed. Therefore I believe the text above should refer to a movement towards a static position, a refusal of any noble activity that should make us Godlike (being together, in harmony) - this denial is actually the eternal death. However, I do not imagine how the condemned soul and later also body will be free in Hell and if it will be possible to get out or not some Ages after Judgment.

Anyways, even the great Theologists of the Church do not fully agree each other when they speak on this subject. So we can only imagine what is or will be there and only theoretically speaking about the possibilities of existence into the outside darkness...
I have heard that there are several patristic writings advocating a type of annihilationism, but I don't think the Church as a whole as ever held to that doctrine.  I've always associated that more with Jehovah Witnesses.
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2013, 01:13:00 PM »

I have heard that there are several patristic writings advocating a type of annihilationism, but I don't think the Church as a whole as ever held to that doctrine.  I've always associated that more with Jehovah Witnesses.

Look on the angels that chose a different direction, going down. There weren't destroyed, they still exist now and forever.
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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2013, 01:36:30 PM »

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Here is the podcast from Fr thomas hopko. Here is his wonderful sermon about how Jesus judges the world merficully, by not judging.
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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2013, 02:29:48 PM »

I think that it is not like a "legal" judgment, but more like a "medical" judgment.

LOL! What is a medical judgement? Like deciding which medicine to prescribe?

So God's prescription is: "Eternal Torment. That'll heal 'em."

What???
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« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2013, 03:28:51 PM »

So does Orthodoxy teach an eternal hell, or a more purgatorial type of hell? Because as these threads usually go, anyone espousing a more purgatorial hell are accused of Origenism.

So it SEEMS that the traditional eternal hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth with no hope of repentance IS the Orthodox position.
I assume your referring to other threads? I haven't seen anyone bring up Origen's name yet in this thread.  I would say that the condemnation against Origenism that I have seen is primarily focused on those who say all WILL be reconciled to God, not all MAY be reconciled to God. The first destroys free will, the second preserves it.

Hope is meaningless if the actual teaching of the Church is eternal damnation. Go ask a ROCOR monk what the Church teaches concerning hell. You won't get the "lovey dovy we can hope" answer.
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« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2013, 04:16:01 PM »

So does Orthodoxy teach an eternal hell, or a more purgatorial type of hell? Because as these threads usually go, anyone espousing a more purgatorial hell are accused of Origenism.

So it SEEMS that the traditional eternal hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth with no hope of repentance IS the Orthodox position.
I assume your referring to other threads? I haven't seen anyone bring up Origen's name yet in this thread.  I would say that the condemnation against Origenism that I have seen is primarily focused on those who say all WILL be reconciled to God, not all MAY be reconciled to God. The first destroys free will, the second preserves it.

Hope is meaningless if the actual teaching of the Church is eternal damnation. Go ask a ROCOR monk what the Church teaches concerning hell. You won't get the "lovey dovy we can hope" answer.
Well, I don't know about ROCOR monks and given the mess in ROCOR right now, maybe I don't want to know what they would say, but Church Fathers such as St. Athanasius, St. Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, and others might give a more carefully thought out answer.
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2013, 05:00:47 PM »

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Well, I don't know about ROCOR monks and given the mess in ROCOR right now, maybe I don't want to know what they would say, but Church Fathers such as St. Athanasius, St. Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, and others might give a more carefully thought out answer.

The Church teaches eternal damnation. Whether we find a bit of a different idea in some of the saints writings is rather meaningless. Eternal damnation. Can we hope all will be reconciled? Sure. That doesn't negate the fact that the Church DOES teach eternal damnation with no hope of salvation for those in hell. We can argue for a "nicer" theology of hell, but in the end, that would be a theological opinion and NOT true official teaching of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2013, 05:16:39 PM »

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Well, I don't know about ROCOR monks and given the mess in ROCOR right now, maybe I don't want to know what they would say, but Church Fathers such as St. Athanasius, St. Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, and others might give a more carefully thought out answer.

The Church teaches eternal damnation. Whether we find a bit of a different idea in some of the saints writings is rather meaningless. Eternal damnation. Can we hope all will be reconciled? Sure. That doesn't negate the fact that the Church DOES teach eternal damnation with no hope of salvation for those in hell. We can argue for a "nicer" theology of hell, but in the end, that would be a theological opinion and NOT true official teaching of the Orthodox Church.

Is there an *official* teaching of The Orthodox Church (tm) on *anything*? Because I've heard plenty of other Orthodox say this is NOT the official teaching of the Orthodox Church.

Do you have any kind of "final authority" to back this up? Like a Pope or something?  Grin
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2013, 05:17:57 PM »

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Well, I don't know about ROCOR monks and given the mess in ROCOR right now, maybe I don't want to know what they would say, but Church Fathers such as St. Athanasius, St. Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, and others might give a more carefully thought out answer.

The Church teaches eternal damnation. Whether we find a bit of a different idea in some of the saints writings is rather meaningless. Eternal damnation. Can we hope all will be reconciled? Sure. That doesn't negate the fact that the Church DOES teach eternal damnation with no hope of salvation for those in hell. We can argue for a "nicer" theology of hell, but in the end, that would be a theological opinion and NOT true official teaching of the Orthodox Church.
Well, that might be true to an extent.  It is considered eternal after Judgment Day, but we do not know when that might be.  Judgment Day could be far off in the distance, giving time for the prayers of the saints to work a salvific work on the lost.  I would agree with you that there is a point at which their future will be considered unalterable, but it is not necessarily upon death.  One can only deny God for so long until He gives them over to the reprobate mind.
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2013, 05:20:14 PM »

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Well, I don't know about ROCOR monks and given the mess in ROCOR right now, maybe I don't want to know what they would say, but Church Fathers such as St. Athanasius, St. Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, and others might give a more carefully thought out answer.

The Church teaches eternal damnation. Whether we find a bit of a different idea in some of the saints writings is rather meaningless. Eternal damnation. Can we hope all will be reconciled? Sure. That doesn't negate the fact that the Church DOES teach eternal damnation with no hope of salvation for those in hell. We can argue for a "nicer" theology of hell, but in the end, that would be a theological opinion and NOT true official teaching of the Orthodox Church.

Is there an *official* teaching of The Orthodox Church (tm) on *anything*? Because I've heard plenty of other Orthodox say this is NOT the official teaching of the Orthodox Church.

Do you have any kind of "final authority" to back this up? Like a Pope or something?  Grin

If only there was some guy who could be in charge and tell us what the Church should believe.  It would make it so much simpler. But that would be silly.  How would we Orthodox fight over stuff like hell if some guy was telling us what to believe.  It would take the fun out of everything!  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2013, 06:29:28 PM »

I think Paradise is a one-way ticket.
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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2013, 06:30:37 PM »

So as I'm sure many of you have noticed, there has been a somewhat raging debate with a resident gnostic here in regards to hell and how the Orthodox view it.  I posted the following in that thread and after a PM and some reflection, I would like to discuss further the Orthodox views on hell.  I figured I would post it in this sub-forum rather than in the gnostic thread, mostly because I want Orthodox view, not gnostic views. (and also that thread is quite caustic, my own posts included)  So my question for you all, do you think my responses were accurate in regards to Orthodox teachings, and is there more than one acceptable perspective on what hell is for the Orthodox?

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years? - Orthodoxy does not teach this

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs? - Orthodoxy does not teach this.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result? - Orthodoxy does not teach this.

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose? - Since none of your premises are taught by Orthodoxy, this question is moot.


   


The idea that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity is bit extreme or irrational.
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2013, 06:58:07 PM »

Declaring that we are Christians demands faith in a loving, merciful God. We are also to love God with all our heart and soul, believing he loves us and will always be merciful to sinners. And second Jesus said was to love our neighbors as ourselves.

In the process of doing this we have no place for these issues as they cause us to lose faith and thus make it harder to love God .IMHO
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 07:17:02 PM »

Declaring that we are Christians demands faith in a loving, merciful God. We are also to love God with all our heart and soul, believing he loves us and will always be merciful to sinners. And second Jesus said was to love our neighbors as ourselves.

In the process of doing this we have no place for these issues as they cause us to lose faith and thus make it harder to love God .IMHO

So disengage our reasoning faculties because it could cause a lack of faith?
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 07:18:06 PM »

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The idea that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity is bit extreme or irrational.

That is the Orthodox stance. If someone can honestly point me or anyone else to something that says otherwise would be much appreciated.
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« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2013, 07:19:55 PM »

Declaring that we are Christians demands faith in a loving, merciful God. We are also to love God with all our heart and soul, believing he loves us and will always be merciful to sinners. And second Jesus said was to love our neighbors as ourselves.

In the process of doing this we have no place for these issues as they cause us to lose faith and thus make it harder to love God .IMHO

So disengage our reasoning faculties because it could cause a lack of faith?

Saint John Chrysostom on the Limitations of Reason
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« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2013, 07:20:02 PM »

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The idea that you're going to burn in hell for all eternity is bit extreme or irrational.

That is the Orthodox stance. If someone can honestly point me or anyone else to something that says otherwise would be much appreciated.
What patristic source are you using as being the basis of this idea?  It sounds more like my days in a fundamentalist baptist church than in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2013, 07:24:44 PM »

What sources are you using that state CLEARLY that hell isn't eternal?
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« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2013, 07:26:52 PM »

What sources are you using that state CLEARLY that hell isn't eternal?
I'm not making that argument.  I'm saying I don't know.  I'm asking you what is your basis for contending with confidence that people are going to burn in hell for all eternity.
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« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2013, 07:27:42 PM »

What sources are you using that state CLEARLY that hell isn't eternal?

Lives of the Saints.

If you become a disciple of an Orthodox saint then you'll learn the teachings.
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