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Author Topic: Demonic Manifestations  (Read 7043 times) Average Rating: 0
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Salpy
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« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2013, 03:07:20 AM »

Gebre, to be fair, Incognito does fulminate quite a bit, and a lot of people are getting frustrated by him, so I would cut LBK some slack.   Smiley

Everyone,

I have a question which actually goes to the OP!    Shocked

There is a young woman in the community around here who is claiming to have visions.  She also says that Christ and the Mother of God take over her body and speak through her.  I know someone who went to see her and he saw it.  Oil poured from her hands (kind of like Myrna,) and she prophesied.  

Normally I dismissed these things as someone trying to get attention, but this man who saw her said the prophesies turned out to be true.  They related to events that were going on in other places that this young woman would not have known about, and what she said that related to them turned out to be true.  The man who told me about this is someone I have known for a long time and he would not make this stuff up.

The prophesies made me think of one of St. Antony's sayings about how demons trick people into thinking they are prophets.  I think he also described this in his life written by St. Athanasius.  The demons see things going on in a place and then they go to a Christian in another place and relay that information to him, to puff him up with pride and make him think he is a prophet.  Then he leads others astray by giving the information as a prophesy and people believe in him.

So this makes me wonder if the young woman is being victimized by demons.

Anyway, the reason I am writing about this is I would like it if others can give me other sources for this phenomenon in addition to St. Antony.  I seem to recall that St. John of the Ladder wrote about this, but I am not sure.  Are there any others?  I am especially looking for desert fathers, as I think they had the most experience wrestling with demons.

Thanks ahead of time.   Smiley
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« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2013, 03:24:42 AM »

Gebre, to be fair, Incognito does fulminate quite a bit, and a lot of people are getting frustrated by him, so I would cut LBK some slack.   Smiley

OK. I respect you Salpy, and so I will apologize.

LBK, forgive me for venting my overall frustrations with the behavior of others on you. That wasn't fair.



Selam
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« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2013, 03:27:42 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam

Proof that you've read none of my posts in any threads where Incognito has, ahem, contributed. Spare me your sanctimony, Gebre.  Angry

You accuse me of sanctimony when you're the one personally ridiculing someone? OK. Good luck with that.


Selam

Just as you blame a series of children's books you've never read for leading young people astray, you're accusing me of ridiculing another forum member without having read any of my posts responding to his. Nice.  Roll Eyes

Who's "fulminating" now?


Selam

Excuse me, but there's a world of difference in asking pertinent questions, and ranting on about saints and holy elders being heretics because of the alleged color of their bones, and branding people, regional churches and serving hierarchs as heretics and heretical for a variety of reasons, with none of these allegations substantiated in any way.

Have you forgotten the thread Incognito started where he openly and publicly proclaimed Met. Kallistos (Ware) a heretic, without a shred of proof? Refresh your memory:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49947.0/all.html
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« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2013, 03:29:09 AM »

Gebre, to be fair, Incognito does fulminate quite a bit, and a lot of people are getting frustrated by him, so I would cut LBK some slack.   Smiley

OK. I respect you Salpy, and so I will apologize.

LBK, forgive me for venting my overall frustrations with the behavior of others on you. That wasn't fair.



Selam

Apology accepted. But don't be so quick to criticize others when you haven't seen the evidence first.
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« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2013, 03:31:33 AM »

It's late.  Go to bed, you two.
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« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2013, 03:32:06 AM »

Wait.  I just realized how that sounded.  You know what I mean.

Good night.
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« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2013, 03:36:23 AM »

Wait.  I just realized how that sounded.  You know what I mean.

Good night.

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2013, 04:20:30 AM »

Salpy,

The Lord and the Theotokos do not take over peoples bodies. The girl is experiencing somekind of demonic possession or possibly a psychotic manifestation.
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« Reply #98 on: July 23, 2013, 04:38:35 AM »

Gebre,

What did I say in this thread that you don't agree with?

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« Reply #99 on: July 23, 2013, 04:43:26 AM »

Gebre,

What did I say in this thread that you don't agree with?


I don't think there was anything in this thread. Some stuff on other threads though. But that makes you no different from everyone else here. There's nobody that agrees with me on everything.


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« Reply #100 on: July 23, 2013, 11:20:02 AM »

Salpy,

The Lord and the Theotokos do not take over peoples bodies. The girl is experiencing somekind of demonic possession or possibly a psychotic manifestation.

That's another big red flag that tells me this young woman's experience is not from God.  God works with us in our free will.  He doesn't take us over and use us like hand puppets.  If anything, this woman's experience reminds me of a medium at a seance.  It's not Christian.

The question is:  Is the woman faking it to get attention, or is she possessed by demons?  I was tempted to think she is faking it, but the prophesy issue makes me wonder if it is not really demons.

Again, if people can give me sources for this in addition to St. Antony, I'd appreciate it.
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« Reply #101 on: July 23, 2013, 12:01:29 PM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam
I don't know if you are referencing my posts, but I will respond.  There is frankly no point in trying to convince someone that the reptilians don't exist and aren't secretly demons bent on taking over the world.  The number of posts to have the argument would be excessively long and get no where because if someone believes in demon reptilians, they probably have already crossed the line of where reason and logic are helpful.  I am not on here to debate people on every nonsense theory they have, but if I see nonsense, I am going to call it as such.
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« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2013, 06:16:16 PM »

Right.  Except that I didn't pay much attention to the reptilians.  He asserts that the late Elder Paisios' bones are black because he's an ecumenist heretic, but can provide no evidence that the tomb was opened and the relics exhumed and inspected, and he can't even guarantee (by his own admission) that his source is telling the truth.  Nevertheless, he stands by it.  Oh, and God spoke to him at age 15.  And he sees devils. 

And all that's after initially engaging his points.

When he does make points that are valid, or defends adequately his positions, I don't think you'll see any "ridicule".  But, quite frankly, there hasn't been as much of that as there has been of the other stuff.       
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« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2013, 08:30:04 PM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.
If you do a little research you will find blackened bones were often considered a sign of sanctity.
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« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2013, 09:48:10 PM »

Regarding my question at the top of this page, here are the three sources to which I referred:

Sayings of the Desert Fathers, St. Antony:

Quote
12. Some brothers came to find Abba Anthony to tell him
about the visions they were having, and to find out from him
if they were true or if they came from the demons.  They had
a donkey, which died on the way.  When they reached the
place where the old man was, he said to them before they
could ask him anything, 'How was it that the little donkey
died on the way here?' They said, 'How do you know about
that, Father?' And he told them, 'The demons showed me
what happened.' So they said, 'That was what we came to
question you about, for fear we were being deceived, for we
have visions which often turn out to be true.' Thus the old
man convinced them, by the example of the donkey, that
their visions came from the demons.

http://popekirillos.net/EN/books/Sayingsd.pdf

(pages 8-9)


The Life of St. Antony, by St. Athanasius:

Quote
31. 'Wherefore if they pretend to foretell the future, let no one give heed, for often they announce beforehand that the brethren are coming days after. And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them. Whence we must give no heed to them, but ought rather to confute them when speaking, since we do not need them. For what wonder is it, if with more subtle bodies than men have , when they have seen them start on their journey, they surpass them in speed, and announce their coming? Just as a horseman getting a start of a man on foot announces the arrival of the latter beforehand, so in this there is no need for us to wonder at them. For they know none of those things which are not yet in existence; but God only is He who knows all things before their birth. But these, like thieves, running off first with what they see, proclaim it: to how many already have they announced our business— that we are assembled together, and discuss measures against them, before any one of us could go and tell these things. This in good truth a fleet-footed boy could do, getting far ahead of one less swift. But what I mean is this. If any one begins to walk from the Thebaid, or from any other district, before he begins to walk, they do not know whether he will walk. But when they have seen him walking they run on, and before he comes up report his approach. And so it falls out that after a few days the travellers arrive. But often the walkers turn back, and the demons prove false.'

32. 'So, too, with respect to the water of the river, they sometimes make foolish statements. For having seen that there has been much rain in the regions of Ethiopia, and knowing that they are the cause of the flood of the river before the water has come to Egypt they run on and announce it. And this men could have told, if they had as great power of running as the demons. And as David's spy 2 Samuel 18:24 going up to a lofty place saw the man approaching better than one who stayed down below, and the forerunner himself announced, before the others came up, not those things which had not taken place, but those things which were already on the way and were being accomplished, so these also prefer to labour, and declare what is happening to others simply for the sake of deceiving them. If, however, Providence meantime plans anything different for the waters or wayfarers— for Providence can do this— the demons are deceived, and those who gave heed to them cheated.'

33. 'Thus in days gone by arose the oracles of the Greeks, and thus they were led astray by the demons. But thus also thenceforth their deception was brought to an end by the coming of the Lord , who brought to nought the demons and their devices. For they know nothing of themselves, but, like thieves, what they get to know from others they pass on, and guess at rather than foretell things. Therefore if sometimes they speak the truth, let no one marvel at them for this. For experienced physicians also, since they see the same malady in different people, often foretell what it is, making it out by their acquaintance with it. Pilots, too, and farmers, from their familiarity with the weather, tell at a glance the state of the atmosphere, and forecast whether it will be stormy or fine. And no one would say that they do this by inspiration, but from experience and practice. So if the demons sometimes do the same by guesswork, let no one wonder at it or heed them. For what use to the hearers is it to know from them what is going to happen before the time? Or what concern have we to know such things, even if the knowledge be true? For it is not productive of virtue, nor is it any token of goodness. For none of us is judged for what he knows not, and no one is called blessed because he has learning and knowledge. But each one will be called to judgment in these points— whether he have kept the faith and truly observed the commandments.'

34. 'Wherefore there is no need to set much value on these things, nor for the sake of them to practise a life of discipline and labour; but that living well we may please God. And we neither ought to pray to know the future, nor to ask for it as the reward of our discipline; but our prayer should be that the Lord may be our fellow-helper for victory over the devil. And if even once we have a desire to know the future, let us be pure in mind, for I believe that if a soul is perfectly pure and in its natural state, it is able , being clear-sighted, to see more and further than the demons— for it has the Lord who reveals to it— like the soul of Elisha, which saw what was done 2 Kings 5:26 by Gehazi, and beheld the hosts 2 Kings 6:17 standing on its side.'


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm



The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 3:

Quote
28. The demons of vainglory prophesy in dreams. Being unscrupulous, they guess the future and
foretell it to us. When these visions come true, we are amazed; and we are indeed elated with the
thought that we are already near to the gift of foreknowledge. A demon is often a prophet to those who
believe him, but he is always a liar to those who despise him. Being a spirit he sees what is happening
in the lower air, and noticing that someone is dying, he foretells it to the more credulous types of
people through dreams. But the demons know nothing about the future from foreknowledge. For if
they did, then the sorcerers would also have been able to foretell our death.

http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf




Is there anything else that anyone is aware of?
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« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2013, 10:15:16 PM »

There is a young woman in the community around here who is claiming to have visions.  She also says that Christ and the Mother of God take over her body and speak through her.  I know someone who went to see her and he saw it.  Oil poured from her hands (kind of like Myrna,) and she prophesied.  

Normally I dismissed these things as someone trying to get attention, but this man who saw her said the prophesies turned out to be true.  They related to events that were going on in other places that this young woman would not have known about, and what she said that related to them turned out to be true.  The man who told me about this is someone I have known for a long time and he would not make this stuff up.

The prophesies made me think of one of St. Antony's sayings about how demons trick people into thinking they are prophets.  I think he also described this in his life written by St. Athanasius.  The demons see things going on in a place and then they go to a Christian in another place and relay that information to him, to puff him up with pride and make him think he is a prophet.  Then he leads others astray by giving the information as a prophesy and people believe in him.

So this makes me wonder if the young woman is being victimized by demons.

As Incognito777 said, authentic visions/spiritual phenomena of divine origin do not involve a suspension of human free will.  If that's actually the "seer's" own explanation of what's happening, that would concern me.  Everything else seems, to me anyway, to be something that could theoretically go either way, but that's definitely the red flag. 

Has your bishop been consulted about this, to investigate the claims?  What about her priest?  Does she come to church regularly and participate normally?  Is she humble or attracting attention and a following to herself?  What does she do with her prophecies, with the oil, etc.?       
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« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2013, 10:20:36 PM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam
I don't know if you are referencing my posts, but I will respond.  There is frankly no point in trying to convince someone that the reptilians don't exist and aren't secretly demons bent on taking over the world.  The number of posts to have the argument would be excessively long and get no where because if someone believes in demon reptilians, they probably have already crossed the line of where reason and logic are helpful.  I am not on here to debate people on every nonsense theory they have, but if I see nonsense, I am going to call it as such.


No, I wasn't referencing your posts.


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« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2013, 10:34:53 PM »

He asserts that the late Elder Paisios' bones are black because he's an ecumenist heretic...

Actually, Elder Paisios (IIRC publicly, in an article/letter) expressed his sadness that Pat. Athenagoras "neglected old and wrinkled Mother Church and chased after other more interesting ladies" (see his "love affair" with Pope Paul VI and the RCs).

He's also known to have said about ecumenists that "they lack any spiritual kernel". 
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« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2013, 10:44:59 PM »


As Incognito777 said, authentic visions/spiritual phenomena of divine origin do not involve a suspension of human free will.  If that's actually the "seer's" own explanation of what's happening, that would concern me.  Everything else seems, to me anyway, to be something that could theoretically go either way, but that's definitely the red flag. 

Has your bishop been consulted about this, to investigate the claims?  What about her priest?  Does she come to church regularly and participate normally?  Is she humble or attracting attention and a following to herself?  What does she do with her prophecies, with the oil, etc.?       

I don't know if the bishop knows about her yet.  I just know of a few people who believe in her.  She tells people ahead of time when she is going to have her experiences, so they can come and witness it.  That's one of the things that makes me doubt that her experiences come from God.  However, she has not attracted enough attention to get a large following or an internet presence, thank goodness. 

My understanding is that she does not attend any church.  That also is a red flag.  I mean, if you were having these experiences, and they came from God, wouldn't you want to start attending church and commune? 

Regarding the oil, one person I know who believes in her gave me a piece of cotton that had some of her oil on it, so I guess she gives it away.  I don't recall what I did with it.  I probably threw it out.  I'm not going to bring that into my home if it may have a demonic source.  And like I said, some of her prophesies have evidently come true, which is one reason I think it may be demonic.

The free will issue is also a big one.  She claims that on one occasion angels came and held her down, hurting her, to force her to look at a light.  And when people are watching her, she will start talking and the claim is that the person talking through her mouth is Christ or the Mother of God.  It's like a medium channeling someone.  I just can't believe that the God I worship does that.

Whatever.  I'm probably making more of it than it warrants.  Her following is very small and it will probably fizzle out before it gets bigger.  I'm actually reluctant to make too big a deal about it on this forum, as I don't want to risk giving her publicity.  It's just that the prophesy angle of it was something I wanted to look into, as that is what her few followers use to give her credibility.  That's why I brought it up here.  I guess ultimately I am concerned about this because I've seen the damage done to people by the Vassula movement, and I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing.
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« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2013, 11:51:49 PM »


As Incognito777 said, authentic visions/spiritual phenomena of divine origin do not involve a suspension of human free will.  If that's actually the "seer's" own explanation of what's happening, that would concern me.  Everything else seems, to me anyway, to be something that could theoretically go either way, but that's definitely the red flag. 

Has your bishop been consulted about this, to investigate the claims?  What about her priest?  Does she come to church regularly and participate normally?  Is she humble or attracting attention and a following to herself?  What does she do with her prophecies, with the oil, etc.?       

I don't know if the bishop knows about her yet.  I just know of a few people who believe in her.  She tells people ahead of time when she is going to have her experiences, so they can come and witness it.  That's one of the things that makes me doubt that her experiences come from God.  However, she has not attracted enough attention to get a large following or an internet presence, thank goodness. 

My understanding is that she does not attend any church.  That also is a red flag.  I mean, if you were having these experiences, and they came from God, wouldn't you want to start attending church and commune? 

Regarding the oil, one person I know who believes in her gave me a piece of cotton that had some of her oil on it, so I guess she gives it away.  I don't recall what I did with it.  I probably threw it out.  I'm not going to bring that into my home if it may have a demonic source.  And like I said, some of her prophesies have evidently come true, which is one reason I think it may be demonic.

The free will issue is also a big one.  She claims that on one occasion angels came and held her down, hurting her, to force her to look at a light.  And when people are watching her, she will start talking and the claim is that the person talking through her mouth is Christ or the Mother of God.  It's like a medium channeling someone.  I just can't believe that the God I worship does that.

Whatever.  I'm probably making more of it than it warrants.  Her following is very small and it will probably fizzle out before it gets bigger.  I'm actually reluctant to make too big a deal about it on this forum, as I don't want to risk giving her publicity.  It's just that the prophesy angle of it was something I wanted to look into, as that is what her few followers use to give her credibility.  That's why I brought it up here.  I guess ultimately I am concerned about this because I've seen the damage done to people by the Vassula movement, and I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing.

Does she claim to be a member of your Christian community? If so, she should be reported to the bishop. We do not need false prophets.
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« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2013, 11:57:12 PM »

I'm not sure what her claims are, since she does not attend any church.
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« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2013, 11:59:33 PM »

I'm not sure what her claims are, since she does not attend any church.

Lord have mercy.

Have some Holy Water close at hand!
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« Reply #112 on: July 24, 2013, 12:09:29 AM »

Actually, Elder Paisios (IIRC publicly, in an article/letter) expressed his sadness that Pat. Athenagoras "neglected old and wrinkled Mother Church and chased after other more interesting ladies" (see his "love affair" with Pope Paul VI and the RCs).

He's also known to have said about ecumenists that "they lack any spiritual kernel". 

Oh, I agree, which is why the allegation that he was an ecumenist is laughable.  

Actually, ever since reading The Mountain of Silence, I've developed quite a fondness for Elder Paisios and his teachings.  I've bought a few books of his writings, and read his biography by Hieromonk Isaac in a week, so engrossed was I by it (not a small feat for me, being a 700+ page book).  I imagine what he might've said to me if I'd had the privilege of meeting him here on earth, and I think maybe it's better that we met as we did: through his teachings and through prayer.  Wink

Elder Porphyrios is another favourite.  His teachings and their application seem, to me anyway, much more balanced and practical for the layman.  He really impresses me as being a cut above many others.  
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« Reply #113 on: July 24, 2013, 12:19:08 AM »

I don't know if the bishop knows about her yet.  I just know of a few people who believe in her.  She tells people ahead of time when she is going to have her experiences, so they can come and witness it.  That's one of the things that makes me doubt that her experiences come from God.  However, she has not attracted enough attention to get a large following or an internet presence, thank goodness. 

Why do I keep hearing "Medjugorje" in the back of my head?  Tongue

Quote
My understanding is that she does not attend any church.  That also is a red flag.  I mean, if you were having these experiences, and they came from God, wouldn't you want to start attending church and commune?

Yeah, that's usually a bad sign.  Is it something of a personal choice (e.g., "He comes to me, why do I need to go there?"), or is it more of an aversion?   

Quote
Regarding the oil, one person I know who believes in her gave me a piece of cotton that had some of her oil on it, so I guess she gives it away.  I don't recall what I did with it.  I probably threw it out.  I'm not going to bring that into my home if it may have a demonic source.  And like I said, some of her prophesies have evidently come true, which is one reason I think it may be demonic.

The fulfillment of prophecies can indicate demonic influence (e.g., the knowledge of hidden or unknown things), but it need not be the case.  But there are enough red flags already.  Some exorcists claim that, in their experience, demons can cause to manifest various objects, so that could explain the oil.  I'm unaware of any Orthodox saints who gave off myrrh while alive; it's usually from their relics after death, or from icons, etc.  This "oil-from-living-people" phenomenon seems to be a RC thing, from which a lot of these things are copied. 

Quote
The free will issue is also a big one.  She claims that on one occasion angels came and held her down, hurting her, to force her to look at a light.  And when people are watching her, she will start talking and the claim is that the person talking through her mouth is Christ or the Mother of God.  It's like a medium channeling someone.  I just can't believe that the God I worship does that.

He doesn't.  That's "weird".   

Quote
Whatever.  I'm probably making more of it than it warrants.  Her following is very small and it will probably fizzle out before it gets bigger.  I'm actually reluctant to make too big a deal about it on this forum, as I don't want to risk giving her publicity.  It's just that the prophesy angle of it was something I wanted to look into, as that is what her few followers use to give her credibility.  That's why I brought it up here.  I guess ultimately I am concerned about this because I've seen the damage done to people by the Vassula movement, and I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing.

Well, it could be an evil influence, or she should just be a few screws short of a hardware store (or whatever that saying is).  It sounds like she needs some sort of help, though.  And followers are not it.  Consider bringing it up with the priest. 
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« Reply #114 on: July 24, 2013, 12:40:11 AM »

Actually, ever since reading The Mountain of Silence, I've developed quite a fondness for Elder Paisios and his teachings.  I've bought a few books of his writings, and read his biography by Hieromonk Isaac in a week, so engrossed was I by it (not a small feat for me, being a 700+ page book).  I imagine what he might've said to me if I'd had the privilege of meeting him here on earth, and I think maybe it's better that we met as we did: through his teachings and through prayer.  Wink

He's great to read in the original. A lot of his wit is lost in translation...

Quote
— Εσύ τι δουλειά κάνεις;

— Είμαι καθηγητής, Γέροντα.

— Πώ, πώ! Εσείς ο’ι καθηγητές έχετε εγωϊσμό, βρέ παιδί μου.

— Γιατί, Γέροντα;

— Γιατί εσείς οι καθηγητές λέτε «εγώ», «εσύ», «αυτός». Αυτά είναι εγωϊστικά. Όλοι είμαστε ένα… (χαμογελάει).

— Τί καθηγητής είσαι;

— Των Αγγλικών, Γέροντα!

— Πώ, πώ! Εσύ, βρέ παιδάκι μου, έχεις μεγάλο εγωϊσμό…

— Γιατί, Γέροντα;

— Βρέ παιδάκι μου, εκείνοι οι Έγγλοι το «εγώ» (I) το γράφουν με κεφαλαίο… αυτό είναι εγωϊσμός… (χαμογελάει).

***

- And you, what do you do for a living?

- I'm a teacher, Geronda!

- O, o! You teachers have egos, my child ("paidi mou" much more common in Greek - so it doesn't come across as paternalising, more like "kiddo").

- How come, Geronda?

- Because you teachers always say: "I", "you", "he". These are egotistic words. We're all one... (smiles).

- What do you teach?

- English.

- O, o! You, kiddo, have a big ego...

- Why, Geronda?

- Well, kiddo, those Inglishmen write "I" with a capital letter... That's egotism! (smiles)

Source



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« Reply #115 on: July 24, 2013, 12:46:29 AM »

He always makes me smile.  My late Metropolitan was a saint, and in life he reminded me a lot of the Elder: I can see him making those sorts of comments.  In fact, I did.  Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: July 24, 2013, 04:51:54 AM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions ...
I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical

The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.

In the time of Jesus Christ, the Sadducees were the Jewish sect known for their materialism and rejection of belief in the future resurrection of the dead and the spirit realm generally.  The Sadducees' materialist philosophy roughly corresponded to the Epicureans of the Roman world.  

The Pharisees roughly corresponded to the Stoics as their gentile counterparts.  The Saduccees sect dwindled out of existence, but the medieval Rabbis were the direct continuation of the Pharisees.  

Most of Judaism abandoned such beliefs and became secularized at approximately the same time as the rest of Europe during Voltaire's so-called "enlightenment" of the eighteenth century.  The Jewish branch of the "enlightenment" is called the Haskalah movement and was led by Voltaire's friend Moses Mendelssohn.  Haskalah was basically anti-religious and the philosophical father of both Reform and Conservative Judaism.  Abraham Geiger, who founded Reform Judaism in the nineteenth century, viewed it as a revival of Sadduceeism.  Likewise, Karl Marx viewed communism as a revival of Epicureanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskalah

The eighteenth century Haskalah movement was the occasion when most of Judaism turned the corner towards secularism.
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« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2013, 06:23:07 PM »

The person who I originally argued this with was an administrator at another religious site, and he was well versed in Judaism as he was brought up by Hasidic Jews.

 He was telling someone else that it was the christians who invented the concept of real demons and a real satan, he was adamant that there were teachings and written proof going back before Jesus that showed this, as he was taught to believe, this is why I had to comer to the conclusion that they have bent the past to fit the current views, and also because of their dislike of Christians overtaking their religion, or at least using it in a way hurtful to them.

I can see their side of it too and how it is painful for others to hijack your religion, and turn it against your belief. But to now lie and say it is christians who made these things up as real beings is going too far.

Here is what the wiki for demon I looked up after your link,
Judaism[edit]
According to some rabbinic sources, demons were believed to be under the dominion of a king or chief, either Asmodai[22] or, in the older Haggadah, Samael ("the angel of death", also called the "chief of the devils"), who killed via poison. Occasionally a demon was called satan: "Stand not in the way of an ox when coming from the pasture, for Satan dances between his horns".[23]
Demonology never became an essential feature of Jewish theology.[citation needed] However, the existence of demons was never questioned by the Talmudists and late rabbis, nor did most of the medieval thinkers question their reality. Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra explicitly denied their existence. Their point of view eventually became mainstream Jewish understanding.
Rabbinical demonology has three classes of demons, though they are scarcely separable one from another. There were the shedim, the mazziḳim ("harmers"), and the ruḥin ("spirits"). There were also lilin ("night spirits"), ṭelane ("shade", or "evening spirits"), ṭiharire ("midday spirits"), and ẓafrire ("morning spirits"), as well as the "demons that bring famine" and "such as cause storm and earthquake".[24][25]

Thank you for your input and any other thoughts would be welcome.
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« Reply #118 on: July 24, 2013, 06:43:26 PM »

any other thoughts would be welcome.

The 'Soul After Death' by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose is one of the more awesome books I have read on the spirit realm.
I have read other books by the knowledgeable Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos and am confident that his book 'Life After Death' complements this perfectly providing vital theological knowledge not covered by Fr Seraphim.
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« Reply #119 on: July 24, 2013, 06:46:29 PM »

Actually, I found Met. Hierotheos' book to be much more useful than Fr Seraphim's book when it comes to the actual teaching on the state of the soul after death.  Never checked it out re: demons, though. 
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« Reply #120 on: July 24, 2013, 06:49:39 PM »

Actually, I found [insert any author here] book to be much more useful than Fr Seraphim's book when it comes to the actual teaching on [insert any topic here].

Words to live by Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: July 24, 2013, 06:54:12 PM »

Hey, cover up, your bias is showing.  Tongue
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« Reply #122 on: July 24, 2013, 07:34:46 PM »

Thank you for your input and any other thoughts would be welcome.
Fr. Seraphim Rose's book states that demons are arranged in military style by divisions.
Each demonic division is like a military rating or occupation specialty.  Each kind of demon corresponds to a certain kind of human sin such as anger, gluttony, lust, heresy, or mercilessness, etc.  These demons attempt to persuade men into their respective brands of passions.

'The Ladder of Divine Ascent' by Saint John Climacus is a manual about climbing a ladder to heaven by combatting the diverse kinds of sins.  Each rung on the ladder of 30 steps corresponds to either a kind of demon or passion to be overcome or to a virtue to be acquired.  The book describes specific characteristics of the various demons and how to overcome them.  

'The Ladder of Divine Ascent'
By Saint John Climacus
http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf
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« Reply #123 on: July 25, 2013, 06:11:57 AM »


There is frankly no point in trying to convince someone that the reptilians don't exist and aren't secretly demons bent on taking over the world.  The number of posts to have the argument would be excessively long and get no where because if someone believes in demon reptilians, they probably have already crossed the line of where reason and logic are helpful.  I am not on here to debate people on every nonsense theory they have, but if I see nonsense, I am going to call it as such.

Since demons appeared to St. Anthony and other saints in so many different ways, why do you preclude the possibility that they cannot also take on the appearance of reptilian humanoids? I understand your view, but what do you base it on? You need to give a valid argument. At this point, I haven't see any argument, only assertion. Second, are you even qualified to have an opinion? How much research have you even done? The "Reptilian" phenomenon is well known in ancient cultures. In fact, the serpent appeared to Eve in the garden, and the devil is called the "serpent" in the book of Revelation. That you may be ignorant of the facts, does nothing to disprove them. I simply interpret this phenomenon from the Orthodox Christian and patristic standpoint, and link it to the demonic. Here are some books about the demonic reptilian creatures, but I really don't recommend you read them. I just want to supply scholarly material.

Blue Blood, True Blood, by Stewart Swerdlow;
The Body Snatcher, by Susan Reed;
The God's of Eden, by William Bramley;
Reality of the Serpent Race, & The Subterranean Origin of UFO's, by Commander and Branton;
The Dulce Wars, by Branton;
Humanity's extraterrestrial origins, by Dr. Arthur David Horn;
Flying serpents and dragons:The story of mankind's Reptilian past, R.A. Boulay;
From the ashes of angels:The forbidden legacy of a fallen race, by Andrew Collins;
The Stars are Falling: Reasons to Believe We are Enslaved by the Serpent, Matthew Delooze;
The murder of reality, Pierre Sabak;
The Dragons of Eden, by Carl Sagan;

Please don't misrepresent my position. I don't claim Reptilian men are walking around everywhere. I claim that the Reptilian phenomenon (the phenomenon exists) is rooted in the devil. That's all.


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« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2013, 04:57:11 PM »

Quote
God is said to have given Satan the power to deceive whoever he likes. God is also said to place lies in the minds of prophets.

God is said, both by his worshipers and by his opponents, to do and to be a lot of things that may not be entirely true (a glance at some recent threads is enough to demonstrate this).  What are your sources for asserting the claims above?  At least let's start on the same page.   


Rev 12;9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.


Quote
Quote
With both our best and woirse antagonists working against us, there is no way of knowing if the demons inside of us are from God or Satan so I would suggest ignoring all talks of demons as fiction.

You take the "demons inside of us" as a given, but because of an assumed inability to discern their origin, you want to pretend that they're not really a given.  Right. 


In esoteric maters care must be taken.
Scriptures say to test all things and that is what must be done before any reality is given to the spirits we might find through apotheosis.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=956764;topic=52430.45;sesc=3b125573e64bd6ca5a7f38a8fd31aa73

Both Satan and God are within us.

Do you believe Jesus when he says that the kingdom of God is within you?
Do you believe those quotes above that say God may lie to you?

Quote
Quote
After all, that is likely what they are unless one wants to think that God did not do justice by sending Satan to hell with his demons instead of giving him freedom and dominion here on earth.

Would God be that stupid and immoral?
No.
He would send Satan straight to hell. Right?

What kind of a god are you?

Just a God WIP.

I found the school and am studying as I can.
Jacobs ladder has many rungs.

Regards
DL
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« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2013, 11:54:50 AM »


If you do a little research you will find blackened bones were often considered a sign of sanctity.

Can you cite me a source?
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« Reply #126 on: August 10, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »



Blue Blood, True Blood, by Stewart Swerdlow;
The Body Snatcher, by Susan Reed;
The God's of Eden, by William Bramley;
Reality of the Serpent Race, & The Subterranean Origin of UFO's, by Commander and Branton;
The Dulce Wars, by Branton;
Humanity's extraterrestrial origins, by Dr. Arthur David Horn;
Flying serpents and dragons:The story of mankind's Reptilian past, R.A. Boulay;
From the ashes of angels:The forbidden legacy of a fallen race, by Andrew Collins;
The Stars are Falling: Reasons to Believe We are Enslaved by the Serpent, Matthew Delooze;
The murder of reality, Pierre Sabak;
The Dragons of Eden, by Carl Sagan;

I regret listing these demonic books in my previous post and here. Maybe the moderator can delete these books but leave my other comments.
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« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2013, 06:48:45 AM »

I was reading an article by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, called "Alien Abductions and the Orthodox Christian." He said something interesting.

 "Their abductors typically "appear as tall or short luminous entities that may be translucent, or at least not altogether solid. Reptilian creatures have been seen....But by far the most common entity observed are the small ‘grays,’ humanoid beings three to four feet in height....

See? His statement supports my belief that demons can take the appearance of Reptilians. He has done his research, and therefore has the right to an opinion.
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« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2013, 04:31:29 PM »

I was reading an article by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, called "Alien Abductions and the Orthodox Christian." He said something interesting.

 "Their abductors typically "appear as tall or short luminous entities that may be translucent, or at least not altogether solid. Reptilian creatures have been seen....But by far the most common entity observed are the small ‘grays,’ humanoid beings three to four feet in height....

See? His statement supports my belief that demons can take the appearance of Reptilians. He has done his research, and therefore has the right to an opinion.

This statement is absurd. From one statement, you believe that aliens exist or that demons have abducted people?

From this quotation given, the cleric could be quoting from second-hand information obtained from those who think that they have been abducted. What is the context of this quotation?
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« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2013, 11:31:17 PM »

Google it, read the rather lengthy article and draw your own conclusion.
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« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2013, 11:43:08 PM »

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/alien_abduct.aspx

Here is the article. 

Also note that Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna is part of the Orthodox Church of Greece, Holy Synod in Resistance.
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