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Author Topic: Demonic Manifestations  (Read 5069 times) Average Rating: 0
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stavros_388
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« on: July 15, 2013, 10:57:17 PM »

We often read about demons attacking and tempting Orthodox ascetics, but rarely do we hear of them attacking regular folk. I assume it is because most people are so worldly, distracted, and weighed down with passions that demons need not waste their time with us... we're already doing what they want us to do. Ascetics, on the other hand, are striving with greater diligence to become pure. Can anyone speak to this or expand on this? Are demonic attacks rare for most Christians because most of us are of little concern to demons? Why do they primarily manifest themselves to monks and nuns? Or are the spiritual senses of the monks and nuns just so much better refined that they can sense such manifestations when we cannot?
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 01:10:47 AM »

I recently read Malachi Martins book about exorcisms from the 1970s, Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans, there were a broad spectrum of cases thoroughly examined within the Catholic church , and while there was one priest afflicted , the rest were regular people.

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 02:38:36 AM »

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

Such folks should have never been ordained priests nor tonsured as monastics. Spiritual immaturity writ large if this is what they seek.
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 02:53:00 AM »

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

Such folks should have never been ordained priests nor tonsured as monastics. Spiritual immaturity writ large if this is what they seek.

Well I wish I remember where it was , because it was actually quite profound when I read it and it was from a good source but it has been about a year or more now.

But it was described in a way that was respectful and wholly responsible, I just do not remember what it said now, just the basics.
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 03:06:13 AM »

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

Such folks should have never been ordained priests nor tonsured as monastics. Spiritual immaturity writ large if this is what they seek.

Well I wish I remember where it was , because it was actually quite profound when I read it and it was from a good source but it has been about a year or more now.

But it was described in a way that was respectful and wholly responsible, I just do not remember what it said now, just the basics.

Dare I ask, have you been Orthodox for as long as I have?
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 03:07:39 AM »

God will only allow one to be tempted according to his level. So, non-ascetics will not get the same type of temptations as ascetics; non-ascetics struggle with moral problems rather than spiritual (I'd say).
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 03:25:50 AM »

Here is my two cents.  This is just theoretical meanderings not based in actual experience, but on some comparative studies, in many of which I have encountered water symbolizing the unconscious mind.

See the icon, "Lord, save me." ??

The demons may be in the water, in the way down deep, below the sub conscious, way down in parts of the mind we are never aware of.  

For regular folk, with regular minds, in whom the waters are still made choppy by the hectic, chaotic flow of life and dealing with the material world, the demons manifest to us as the passions, the lusts, and so forth; so that as someone said above we experience this as moral issues-- I am just building upon what IoanC said.

For ascetics and mystics who have further removed themselves from material concerns, and quieted the passions and lusts to such an extent that the waters of the mind, the vast choppy sea of the unconscious, has become still and quiet, they may experience these same influences in their more spiritual sense, as demonic entities.

Muddy water, when left to settle, becomes crystal clear.

However we encounter the sea of experience, as demonic or as passionate and lustful, Christ will lift us out.

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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 03:53:34 AM »

I don’t have the answers to all of your questions, but I can say all of the demonic possessions I have heard from people involve every day normal folk.  I would even say most of them do not even realize what has happened.  I will also say the Catholic Church may be involved in most of these cases, but I know many people, one personally, who had to deal with more than one possession.  In his words, the scariest thing he ever had to deal with.
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 04:46:34 AM »

This reminds me of that story yeshuaisiam told us. If only I could remember the thread.
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 06:18:46 AM »

I don’t have the answers to all of your questions, but I can say all of the demonic possessions I have heard from people involve every day normal folk.  I would even say most of them do not even realize what has happened.  I will also say the Catholic Church may be involved in most of these cases, but I know many people, one personally, who had to deal with more than one possession.  In his words, the scariest thing he ever had to deal with.

Reminds me of a friend who related her experience at an exorcism in Greece, one of those assembled laughed at one point and the subject of the exorcism turned and a rough voice thundered, "And you are sleeping with your brother-in-law". The actual words used were a coarser version of the same thing.
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 09:52:40 AM »


I think these are real.  I've even heard of young children being bothered by them.

I've also spoken, at length, with an Orthodox priest from Canada who "specializes" in this sort of thing.  The stories he told gave me goosebumps. 

My personal view on the matter is to not be "too interested" in such things.

When asked to pray and help someone, do it....otherwise, concentrate on your personal salvation, doing good, reading scripture, etc.  There are better things to occupy your time.
 

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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 09:55:31 AM »


I think these are real.  I've even heard of young children being bothered by them.

I've also spoken, at length, with an Orthodox priest from Canada who "specializes" in this sort of thing.  The stories he told gave me goosebumps. 

My personal view on the matter is to not be "too interested" in such things.

When asked to pray and help someone, do it....otherwise, concentrate on your personal salvation, doing good, reading scripture, etc.  There are better things to occupy your time.
 



Exactly, my friend's advice was to stay away from such things.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 11:08:41 AM »

My personal view on the matter is to not be "too interested" in such things.

When asked to pray and help someone, do it....otherwise, concentrate on your personal salvation, doing good, reading scripture, etc.  There are better things to occupy your time.

Yes, this is sensible, thanks.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 12:44:09 PM »

Demons regularly attack everyone through temptations to sin.  That is their "ordinary activity", if I may use the terminology of the RC Fr Gabriele Amorth (an exorcist for the Vatican).  If you've ever committed a sin in response to a temptation, a demon fought you and momentarily won.  A succession of such victories may weigh us down enough that they gain a foothold in our lives through our lack of struggle against them and our hardening in sin.  That in itself may be all there is to it, but it is also possible for what we commonly regard as "demonic activity" to manifest itself in such circumstances.  This can happen "just like that", but more commonly there might be some involvement with the occult or some other "escalation" that brings it on.  This manifestation of demonic activity Amorth calls the demons' "extraordinary activity".   

But when a person turns away from sin and turns to the Lord decisively, whether or not that involves embracing monasticism, demons will fight harder to win him back because the person himself has begun to fight against them with the power of God.  In the majority of such cases, it's probably just an escalation of temptation, but in particular cases there may be some "manifestation".  The goal is the same: to entice, to frighten, to ensnare, to capture.

It's important that we know a little about these things (most likely, what is in Scripture is enough), but also important that we not "glorify" it too much.  Christ has conquered the power of Satan.  If Satan acts, he nevertheless is always subject to the power of God.  He acts only within the limits God allows, for the time that God allows, etc.  When it's time to go, he goes.  And we have weapons: prayer, fasting, the sacraments, almsgiving, ascetic practices, and so on.  If we live a faithful life within our abilities, not getting too lazy or strict beyond what we can handle, we'll be fine.  We're in good hands.     

 
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 08:59:28 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.

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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 11:04:23 PM »

Seems to me one of our Priests told a fairly scarey story on one of the threads too.

I will say I had an experience once that left me scared for days. Funny thing was there was nothing scarey about it on the surface, it was just the overwhelming sense that something was not right and good. I have zero desire to repeat that again.  Sad

 I also agree, for the little its worth, with those of you above who have suggested that we are too desensitized to really notice even the scarey stuff most of the time, though I'll add I think we miss things of God for the same reason.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2013, 02:28:30 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 

Seems to me one of our Priests told a fairly scarey story on one of the threads too.



Yes, I recall that thread.  I think it was one of our posters who was the altar boy at the time...and the darkness followed a man who had walked in to a Vespers service.  That was creepy and very scary.

I think we are desensitized to a degree because we "see" it every day....in the movies, on TV, in the games, books, etc.  All the kids are watching the Walking Dead, Twilight, and I don't even know what else..... Evil has been glamorized and therefore, rather discredited in the eyes of society.  They love it, but, they don't necessarily believe it to be real.

Just try to hold a conversation with the average Joe on this topic....you will be ridiculed.

This is the best way to destroy mankind....like a cancer from the inside....slowly eating away....

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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2013, 09:11:36 PM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2013, 09:55:10 PM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.

How did you discern that it was a demon and not a ghost or hallucination?

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2013, 03:23:40 AM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 



Yes, I was told this by a very knowledgeable site administrator(Jewish) at another religious site. He has studied Judaism all his life and while he said he was not practicing at the time he was brought up by the strict Hasidic Jews.

He was telling someone else in a thread that it was Christians who invented demons who are real, as well as a literal devil.
He said that the Jews only see them as metaphorical characters, who represent sin and lawbreakers, or something to that effect. But he was adamant that Jews do not now believe in demons as real. Course he said they never did, but alluded to some sects of Judaism that might have at one time, but no longer do.Or they no longer exist.

 But the Gospels quite clearly say that the Jews strict Pharisees accused Jesus of being possesed by a demon.

I argued using Job as an example, but that was when he told me that Job is considered poetry, which I checked and later found was correct, I never knew that before then(3 years ago), but since have read many books which talk about it being considered poetry which is different than the parts that deal with real persons who lived such as Moses. Job was made up much as Jesus made up parables of people who did not really exist, but were used as ways to teach principles .

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 04:19:57 AM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.

How did you discern that it was a demon and not a ghost or hallucination?

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

I thought saints were the only ones allowed to appear in this world.
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 04:43:25 AM »

^^Wow talk about being deluded and lost, the Jews of today are so far off the train tracks. If you don't believe Satan and his minions are real, you may be in for a reality check in the life to come. I once had a demon manifest when I was walking in the woods, I was paralyzed for about ten minutes and couldn’t even do anything it was so horrifying. It was the most ghastly thing I have ever seen, it towered over the tree line in size. I always wondered why this happened and have no explanation as it seems like the weirdest random thing that could happen to somebody.

 If God is going to give some a view into the supernatural, why couldn’t it be like an army of angels? I’m still kind of bitter about it after all these years because I honestly don’t understand why it happened and the image of it still gets to me when I think about it. I do have a strong gift of discernment, I can sense evil when it presents itself, but besides that one time I have not actually seen anything else manifest in the many years after that one event. I wonder if this is what the saints and monastic’s can see at times; what they think or how they approach such manifestations would be interesting.
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 04:46:33 AM »

I remember awaking from sleep when I was 7 or 8 years old and seeing five or so humanoid figures in my bedroom, each one purely black and shadowy, with red eyes though and no pupils. One of them was staring right at me and kept coming closer. Then all of a sudden everything disappeared. Still don't know if it was real, a dream, or some odd, half-asleep hallucination sleep paralysis thing. Strangely enough, my mom had a similar experience in that house once, involving a black, shadowy entity looking over her. My grandmother prior to becoming a Roman Catholic practiced with craft and other odd Mexico occultic stuff in that house.

In another instance, and more recently, I remember having two nightmares where the Devil appeared to me. He just looked like a tall White guy in a nice suit with a wrinkly face. In the first dream he told me he'd kill me if I converted to Orthodoxy, I remember just running away and never stopping. Second one was identical, except he said he'd kill my family (which, shameful as it is, I didn't feel as disturbed by this one, since I'm not too close to my family).

On a more positive note, I also once dreamt that my patron St. Augustine appeared to me and we were just sitting on a bench and I was crying while he was wiping my tears and patting me on the back. This was after one of my father's relapses.
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 08:46:57 AM »

I remember awaking from sleep when I was 7 or 8 years old and seeing five or so humanoid figures in my bedroom, each one purely black and shadowy, with red eyes though and no pupils. One of them was staring right at me and kept coming closer. Then all of a sudden everything disappeared. Still don't know if it was real, a dream, or some odd, half-asleep hallucination sleep paralysis thing.

I had a similar experience when I was young.  Not sure what it was, but it scared the crap out of me.  The only time in my life I was so scared I couldn't scream.
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2013, 08:48:35 AM »

^^Wow talk about being deluded and lost, the Jews of today are so far off the train tracks. If you don't believe Satan and his minions are real, you may be in for a reality check in the life to come.

My wife says she believes in angels but not demons.  I asked her why and she said it was too scary.   laugh
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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 11:41:10 AM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.

How did you discern that it was a demon and not a ghost or hallucination?

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

I thought saints were the only ones allowed to appear in this world.

No, when I was in the OCA, my priest told me about a Russian Orthodox Priest in pre-Soviet Russia who was defrocked by his bishop for his alcoholism. That very night, all these souls appeared to the Bishop pleading that he restore the priest to the parish. His Grace did not get any sleep that night! Early that morning, the bishop called the defrocked priest to the chancery office. He asked the man to describe his daily activities. The defrocked priest said that he would daily walk among the tombs in the parish graveyard prayerfully remembering all those who had fallen asleep in Christ. The Bishop realized that these souls needed the prayers of this alcoholic priest and restored him to the priesthood.
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 12:08:57 PM »

Years ago I visited a long abandoned church reputed to be haunted and a place that the local police dogs refused even to pass the lychgate, at Clophill in Bedfordshire.

I took my then police trained German Shepherd dog. First thing he did was to pause passing through the lychgate and pee up it. Then we entered the graveyard, where enormous grave capstones appeared to have been thrown around like playing cards. Still nothing but curiosity and lots of sniffing on the part of my companion and I had no discernible reactions to my surroundings. The roofless church had been daubed with runic signs in red paint. Other than that nothing and we prepared to leave.

Then rushing off down the driveway I became aware of a black cat alongside and keeping pace, so I speeded up and so did my uninvited companion, so pressed the pedal and the cat shot ahead and raced across the driveway in front of our vehicle only to disappear. No, not under my wheels!

Rationale explanations I don't have and have met many a cat with a turn of speed but not one that could equal that black moggy. And yes, the church does appear on some list or other of haunted places.
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 03:07:52 AM »

Maria, there was no doubt in my mind that the creature I saw was a demon, or a person who had become demonic. His face was grey and horrible. I suppose it could have been someone desiring prayer, but I don't know who it was. He had a hood kind of like a Roman Catholic monk. I don't have a history of hallucinations. And I wasn't looking for or expecting this manifestation at all.
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 03:09:55 AM »

Kerdy, does your wife claim to be Christian? She is not a Christian if she does not believe in demons, because Christ our God taught about their existence. To call into question anything he taught us, is to deny his deity.
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 04:37:18 AM »

I recently read Malachi Martins book about exorcisms from the 1970s, Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans, there were a broad spectrum of cases thoroughly examined within the Catholic church , and while there was one priest afflicted , the rest were regular people.

Great book! I certainly don't recommend it as an Orthodox text on the subject, but I think the overall Christian philosophy of the book is very powerful. It is fascinating reading.

Quote
I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

The movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose comes to mind here, which was supposedly based on a true story. But in this case the victim of possession did not actively seek it out. She was innocently possessed, and then the Virgin Mary appeared to her and gave her the choice of ending her suffering and taking her to heaven or continuing her suffering so that others would know that the spiritual realm is real. She chose to remain on earth and be possessed in order to be an instrument of God. Now, I am in no way saying that this is a valid or Orthodox idea. And I agree with others here that actively seeking possession as some sort of spiritual test is hardly an Orthodox practice in the strict sense of the term.

My own view (and this is merely my opinion), is that we make too drastic of a distinction between demonic activity and individual sin. I think every act of evil in the world is the product of demonic influence and individual choice. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, we tend to err either on the side of saying, "the devil made me do it" or on the side of saying that the devil does not exist.


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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 08:08:01 AM »

The movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose comes to mind here, which was supposedly based on a true story. But in this case the victim of possession did not actively seek it out. She was innocently possessed...

Speaking of movies, I watched The Conjuring last night. Scared the absolute crap out of me. It, too, is supposedly based on true events and deals with the possession of an innocent who was not seeking out anything paranormal. Anyway, interestingly, when we left the theater and were discussing the movie, my atheist friend said that movies like that made her reconsider the possibility of the existence of God. I think I remember somewhere that Fr. Seraphim Rose (early in his life) first concluded that Christ was real when he came to know that Antichrist was real.

Perhaps demons tend to remain incognito to those whose faith is weak (so as not to give them any reasons to believe), while for people like Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain (whose biography I am currently reading), who already have established unshakable faith, the demons need not tip-toe around in the shadows and so come right out into the open to attack and tempt? Anyway, just speculating.


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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2013, 11:31:33 AM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2013, 12:06:54 PM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.

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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 12:25:17 PM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.

And when have you seen his bones? As far as I know, they lie in his grave.
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 02:22:45 PM »

And when have you seen his bones? As far as I know, they lie in his grave.

Thank you, Ansgar, I was JUST about to type the same thing. 
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 02:23:47 PM »

Maria, there was no doubt in my mind that the creature I saw was a demon, or a person who had become demonic.

No human being becomes demonic anymore than they become angelic.  They are and will remain human. 
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 07:37:46 PM »

stavros, actually I do know what I say. That Paisios' bones are black, was reported to an associate of mine from his spiritual father on Mount Athos. They will probably lie and conceal this truth from you here in America, where all they care about is accommodating heresy and heretics.
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« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 07:39:49 PM »

No human being becomes demonic anymore than they become angelic.  They are and will remain human. 

That's not true. Orthodoxy teaches that human beings in Hell will become more and more demonic throughout eternity. And it teaches that our likeness to the angels and demons begins in this life.
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« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 07:45:13 PM »

Are you talking about "becoming demonic/angelic" in terms of similarity or nature?  IOW, is it a matter of "who they are" or "how they act"?       
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« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 07:46:05 PM »

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

The creature In saw was absolutely demonic. And I seriously doubt that souls can just randomly appear on earth seeking prayer. What, do they receive an out of Hell pass or something? There are billions of souls in Hell. Why would God grant just one soul to appear to someone for prayer, but never make it known who the soul is? This is ridiculous. And it sounds superstitious. If souls could appear at will to people on earth, than the earth would literally be filled by billions of souls constantly appearing asking people for prayer. Why just allow one soul out of the billions, and the soul never identify who he is? He never gives his name or explains what he needs? Nonsense.
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« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2013, 07:47:59 PM »

stavros, actually I do know what I say. That Paisios' bones are black, was reported to an associate of mine from his spiritual father on Mount Athos. They will probably lie and conceal this truth from you here in America, where all they care about is accommodating heresy and heretics.

LOL.  Obviously, you are also "here" in America, but managed to hear the truth, so it can't be so hard to verify, right?  

When were his relics exhumed?  
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« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 07:48:37 PM »

Are you talking about "becoming demonic/angelic" in terms of similarity or nature?  IOW, is it a matter of "who they are" or "how they act"?       

We become angelic or demonic in terms of characteristics.That's all I know. I'm not a theologian.
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« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2013, 07:50:18 PM »

We become angelic or demonic in terms of characteristics.That's all I know. I'm not a theologian.

Well, if you mean behaviour or some such thing, then that's acceptable I suppose. 
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« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 07:51:29 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 



Yes, I was told this by a very knowledgeable site administrator(Jewish) at another religious site. He has studied Judaism all his life and while he said he was not practicing at the time he was brought up by the strict Hasidic Jews.

He was telling someone else in a thread that it was Christians who invented demons who are real, as well as a literal devil.
He said that the Jews only see them as metaphorical characters, who represent sin and lawbreakers, or something to that effect. But he was adamant that Jews do not now believe in demons as real. Course he said they never did, but alluded to some sects of Judaism that might have at one time, but no longer do.Or they no longer exist.

 But the Gospels quite clearly say that the Jews strict Pharisees accused Jesus of being possesed by a demon.

I argued using Job as an example, but that was when he told me that Job is considered poetry, which I checked and later found was correct, I never knew that before then(3 years ago), but since have read many books which talk about it being considered poetry which is different than the parts that deal with real persons who lived such as Moses. Job was made up much as Jesus made up parables of people who did not really exist, but were used as ways to teach principles .

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.

So, what do they say about the snake in the Garden, who tempted Eve?



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« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 07:53:15 PM »

I don't know when his bones were exhumed. And I'm just going by what I was told. Since there are so many liars in the world today, I don't guarantee that the information I gave about Paisios is true.
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« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2013, 07:53:26 PM »

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

The creature In saw was absolutely demonic. And I seriously doubt that souls can just randomly appear on earth seeking prayer. What, do they receive an out of Hell pass or something? There are billions of souls in Hell. Why would God grant just one soul to appear to someone for prayer, but never make it known who the soul is? This is ridiculous. And it sounds superstitious. If souls could appear at will to people on earth, than the earth would literally be filled by billions of souls constantly appearing asking people for prayer. Why just allow one soul out of the billions, and the soul never identify who he is? He never gives his name or explains what he needs? Nonsense.

How can you say only "one" soul appears?

Perhaps thousands appear to thousands of people, they just don't publicize it.

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« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2013, 07:54:42 PM »

I don't know when his bones were exhumed. And I'm just going by what I was told. Since there are so many liars in the world today, I don't guarantee that the information I gave about Paisios is true.

Then why would you put it out there as if it was an incontrovertible fact?  
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« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2013, 07:55:08 PM »

stavros, actually I do know what I say. That Paisios' bones are black, was reported to an associate of mine from his spiritual father on Mount Athos. They will probably lie and conceal this truth from you here in America, where all they care about is accommodating heresy and heretics.

This is something Old Calendarists say about all Elders and Saints that the Church glorified or the faithful venerate after they split, without exception. St. Nektarios of Egina included.   
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« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2013, 09:27:22 PM »

I don't know when his bones were exhumed. And I'm just going by what I was told. Since there are so many liars in the world today, I don't guarantee that the information I gave about Paisios is true.

Then why would you put it out there as if it was an incontrovertible fact?  

Especially when the person in question is highly regarded as one of Orthodoxy's saintliest contemporary elders. You called him an apostate based on hearsay regarding the color of his bones. What about the many miracles and healings that have been attributed to him?
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« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2013, 10:15:37 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 



Yes, I was told this by a very knowledgeable site administrator(Jewish) at another religious site. He has studied Judaism all his life and while he said he was not practicing at the time he was brought up by the strict Hasidic Jews.

He was telling someone else in a thread that it was Christians who invented demons who are real, as well as a literal devil.
He said that the Jews only see them as metaphorical characters, who represent sin and lawbreakers, or something to that effect. But he was adamant that Jews do not now believe in demons as real. Course he said they never did, but alluded to some sects of Judaism that might have at one time, but no longer do.Or they no longer exist.

 But the Gospels quite clearly say that the Jews strict Pharisees accused Jesus of being possesed by a demon.

I argued using Job as an example, but that was when he told me that Job is considered poetry, which I checked and later found was correct, I never knew that before then(3 years ago), but since have read many books which talk about it being considered poetry which is different than the parts that deal with real persons who lived such as Moses. Job was made up much as Jesus made up parables of people who did not really exist, but were used as ways to teach principles .

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.

So, what do they say about the snake in the Garden, who tempted Eve?





Jews have traditionally believed just that: that it was a snake.  They would more or less agree with Voltaire, "It was so decidedly a real serpent, that all its species, which had before walked on their feet, were condemned to crawl on their bellies. No serpent, no animal of any kind, is called Satan, or Belzebub, or Devil, in the Pentateuch."
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« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2013, 10:24:31 PM »


Especially when the person in question is highly regarded as one of Orthodoxy's saintliest contemporary elders. You called him an apostate based on hearsay regarding the color of his bones. What about the many miracles and healings that have been attributed to him?

No, he is considered saintly by apostates and new calendarists. He is an apostate BECAUSE he died outside the Church, and in communion with heresy. The black bones are simply a manifestation of his having fallen from Orthodoxy, and his refusal to take a stands.

I am opposed to Ecumenism and heresy, as anyone professing Orthodoxy should be. I follow the official CHURCH calendar. The term "old calendar" is simply referring to the official calendar of the historic Church.

It is inappropriate and against forum rules in an Orthodox forums board to call a well-respected Orthodox cleric directly an "apostate" or "heretic". You can convey disagreements in the faith without labeling the clerics.

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« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2013, 10:28:20 PM »

James, the Book of Revelation identifies the serpent as the great dragon, called the Devil, and Satan. See Revelation 12:9 and 20:2.
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« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2013, 10:40:29 PM »

He is an apostate BECAUSE he died outside the Church...

Well, yeah, he didn't die in your "Church", but he did die well within Christ's. 

Quote
The black bones are simply a manifestation of his having fallen from Orthodoxy, and his refusal to take a stands.

You can't even take an official stand on whether or not his bones are actually black, you just repeat unsubstantiated claims that you admit may not be reliable because you want them to be true.  How is that Orthodox?

Quote
I am opposed to Ecumenism and heresy, as anyone professing Orthodoxy should be. I follow the official CHURCH calendar. The term "old calendar" is simply referring to the official calendar of the historic Church.

And with which "Two Orthodox" group are you affiliated? 

I respect Old Calendarists, but you give them a bad name.  And it really has nothing to do with your opinion of Elder Paisios. 
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« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2013, 11:11:48 PM »

James, the Book of Revelation identifies the serpent as the great dragon, called the Devil, and Satan. See Revelation 12:9 and 20:2.

When did the Jews start reading Revelation?
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« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2013, 10:02:53 AM »

God is said to have given Satan the power to deceive whoever he likes. God is also said to place lies in the minds of prophets.

With both our best and woirse antagonists working against us, there is no way of knowing if the demons inside of us are from God or Satan so I would suggest ignoring all talks of demons as fiction.

After all, that is likely what they are unless one wants to think that God did not do justice by sending Satan to hell with his demons instead of giving him freedom and dominion here on earth.

Would God be that stupid and immoral?
No.
He would send Satan straight to hell. Right?

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« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2013, 12:42:17 PM »

He is an apostate BECAUSE he died outside the Church...

Well, yeah, he didn't die in your "Church", but he did die well within Christ's. 

Quote
The black bones are simply a manifestation of his having fallen from Orthodoxy, and his refusal to take a stands.

You can't even take an official stand on whether or not his bones are actually black, you just repeat unsubstantiated claims that you admit may not be reliable because you want them to be true.  How is that Orthodox?

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I am opposed to Ecumenism and heresy, as anyone professing Orthodoxy should be. I follow the official CHURCH calendar. The term "old calendar" is simply referring to the official calendar of the historic Church.

And with which "Two Orthodox" group are you affiliated? 

I respect Old Calendarists, but you give them a bad name.  And it really has nothing to do with your opinion of Elder Paisios. 
The Elder Paisios thing was just the tip of the iceberg.  If you look at his youtube videos, he's talking about reptilians and sorts of wacked out conspiracy theory stuff. Based on his videos, I think he has anathemized everyone in the history of the Church.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2013, 12:46:47 PM »

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With both our best and woirse antagonists working against us, there is no way of knowing if the demons inside of us are from God or Satan so I would suggest ignoring all talks of demons as fiction.
ROFL! Your solution to trying to figure out an unknown quantity is to call it fiction?

I have no way of knowing if the stock market is going to go up or down tomorrow, therefore the stock market is ficticious.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2013, 12:59:02 PM »

God is said to have given Satan the power to deceive whoever he likes. God is also said to place lies in the minds of prophets.

God is said, both by his worshipers and by his opponents, to do and to be a lot of things that may not be entirely true (a glance at some recent threads is enough to demonstrate this).  What are your sources for asserting the claims above?  At least let's start on the same page.   

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With both our best and woirse antagonists working against us, there is no way of knowing if the demons inside of us are from God or Satan so I would suggest ignoring all talks of demons as fiction.

You take the "demons inside of us" as a given, but because of an assumed inability to discern their origin, you want to pretend that they're not really a given.  Right. 

Quote
After all, that is likely what they are unless one wants to think that God did not do justice by sending Satan to hell with his demons instead of giving him freedom and dominion here on earth.

Would God be that stupid and immoral?
No.
He would send Satan straight to hell. Right?

What kind of a god are you?
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« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2013, 02:32:36 PM »

I read somewhere that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider the books of Genesis or Revelation as history (while the rest of the NT, on the other hand, is regarded as actual history), but understands them rather as metaphorical/symbolic.  Is this true?

-C

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« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2013, 02:36:45 PM »

I read somewhere that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider the books of Genesis or Revelation as history (while the rest of the NT, on the other hand, is regarded as actual history), but understands them rather as metaphorical/symbolic.  Is this true?

-C




There is wide disagreement on that.  Many (myself included) view them metaphorically, but there are also many who vehemently hold to a literal or historical view.  The Church has not taken a dogmatic stance on the issue.
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« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2013, 04:15:14 PM »

Well, you see where I was going with that question, for how you answer it informs your answers to various questions which have been brought up in this thread.

I will say this much - and let it be a sort of confession:

I believe that regardless of how you view such things - whether you view certain texts as historical fact or metaphor, or both - whether you view demons and the devil as objective entities, or subjective aspects of your own human beingness - whether you are possessed with fear, lust, envy, ANY passsion, or whether you are tormented by Satan himself and possessed of demonic entities- whether you view hell as a physical place or as a state of being - Christ will save you from all this and more.

I believe that our Lord is a redeemer, a rescuer, a deliverer, and the salvation of all, and I believe that no matter what ails you, or how you view it, or what your theology is-- I believe that if you call out to Him in His Holy Name - He will save you and lift you out of your low estate, no matter what it is.  NO MATTER WHAT IT IS.  If you need help He will deliver you.

And I believe His saving grace extends well beyond the grave - that it is something in which you may abide here and now, no matter what you think about these things.

Lord, save me!

Jesus came to me in a time of hardship, and it is unfortunate, in a way, that this is often the case.  But I believe that even the hardest atheist, when they sink to such a low that they cannot go on, and yet they muster enough faith to call on Him and mean it, that they can and will be saved by Him.

I hardened myself up with pride to such an extent that I had to be broken down in agony before I called to Him and I'll never forget it.  The world weighs a lot.  He will lift it.

In some schools of thought, the cross is representative of the four elements earth, water, air, and fire.  In ancient Greece they reckoned all of material existence, the world, to be fashioned from these four basic elements.  And since we are material beings, you may say, in a sort of metaphor, that we too bear a cross of materiality, the world itself; existence IN the world is our burden and it is heavy indeed.  He will lift it from you no matter what you think it is- just ask Him.    

Lord, have mercy.

I could just as well post this in the "Atheist" thread over in convert issues.  These are the things I believe.

Sorry, I said I don't like preaching and now I'm ranting, but that's the mood I'm in right now.  (And I certainly won't go over 5 minutes Wink )

-C
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« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2013, 06:50:58 PM »

I recently read Malachi Martins book about exorcisms from the 1970s, Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans, there were a broad spectrum of cases thoroughly examined within the Catholic church , and while there was one priest afflicted , the rest were regular people.

Great book! I certainly don't recommend it as an Orthodox text on the subject, but I think the overall Christian philosophy of the book is very powerful. It is fascinating reading.

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I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

The movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose comes to mind here, which was supposedly based on a true story. But in this case the victim of possession did not actively seek it out. She was innocently possessed, and then the Virgin Mary appeared to her and gave her the choice of ending her suffering and taking her to heaven or continuing her suffering so that others would know that the spiritual realm is real. She chose to remain on earth and be possessed in order to be an instrument of God. Now, I am in no way saying that this is a valid or Orthodox idea. And I agree with others here that actively seeking possession as some sort of spiritual test is hardly an Orthodox practice in the strict sense of the term.

My own view (and this is merely my opinion), is that we make too drastic of a distinction between demonic activity and individual sin. I think every act of evil in the world is the product of demonic influence and individual choice. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, we tend to err either on the side of saying, "the devil made me do it" or on the side of saying that the devil does not exist.


Selam

I think it may have been In Malachi Martins book that he talked about there being Monks or priests seeking it out, I have been trying to remember iwher I read it now, it has been a few months since I read it, and do not remember reading any other books on that subject, so it seems  it would have been his, there are some who have ridiculed me, But the peice I read about it was completely respectful and not done in a hateful way .
It was simply a quest of the soul seeking knowledge or seeking greater faith in God.
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« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2013, 08:17:47 PM »

I read somewhere that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider the books of Genesis or Revelation as history (while the rest of the NT, on the other hand, is regarded as actual history), but understands them rather as metaphorical/symbolic.  Is this true?

-C



Depends on the person you ask. 
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« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2013, 08:22:38 PM »

I read somewhere that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider the books of Genesis or Revelation as history (while the rest of the NT, on the other hand, is regarded as actual history), but understands them rather as metaphorical/symbolic.  Is this true?

There is no official position, though some approaches are more popular than others. Generally things seem to be taken on a passage by passage basis, not a book by book one. It also happens often enough that a passage can be understood in multiple ways, so it's not an either/or thing.
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« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2013, 08:53:12 PM »


If you look at his youtube videos, he's talking about reptilians and sorts of wacked out conspiracy theory stuff. Based on his videos, I think he has anathemized everyone in the history of the Church.  Roll Eyes

You are doing what I advised against in my video: taking once piece of the explanation, blowing it out of proportion, and spreading rumors or slander. I clarified that I believe the Reptilian phenomenon is rooted in the devil. So what? I hope you believe that too. What exactly do you consider a wacked out conspiracy theory. Be specific, and prove it false. You have a spot in your mind that you can't see past. And I have NOT anathematized everyone in Church history. Now you're lying. You need to be more careful in how you word things.
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« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2013, 08:55:53 PM »

I read somewhere that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider the books of Genesis or Revelation as history (while the rest of the NT, on the other hand, is regarded as actual history), but understands them rather as metaphorical/symbolic.  Is this true?

-C

No, that is not true. We believe Genesis to be history. To deny it's historicity, would lead inevitably to a denial of the genealogy of Christ, and consequently to a denial of his deity and atonement. This is what the modernist heretics are after. The New Testament is absolutely history.
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« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2013, 09:20:47 PM »

We know demons exist because Christ exorcized them, and inspired Scripture speaks of their existence. To deny the existence of demons, is to question the words and deity of Christ. Anyone who denies the teaching of Christ, is not a Christian.

Try resisting the devil, and he will make his reality known to you real fast.

I saw a demon with my own eyes, by the way.
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« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2013, 09:43:33 PM »


If you look at his youtube videos, he's talking about reptilians and sorts of wacked out conspiracy theory stuff. Based on his videos, I think he has anathemized everyone in the history of the Church.  Roll Eyes

You are doing what I advised against in my video: taking once piece of the explanation, blowing it out of proportion, and spreading rumors or slander. I clarified that I believe the Reptilian phenomenon is rooted in the devil. So what? I hope you believe that too. What exactly do you consider a wacked out conspiracy theory. Be specific, and prove it false. You have a spot in your mind that you can't see past. And I have NOT anathematized everyone in Church history. Now you're lying. You need to be more careful in how you word things.

what does it matter?  I'm already a heretic in your mind because I'm a new calendarist. shouldn't you be counting it all joy to be mocked by a heretic?   Wink

The main problem I have with your posts and your videos is that you are so concerned about how wrong everyone else is that you don't spend any time on self examination.  You are concerned that people are slandering you, yet you have tons of videos where you do the same exact thing to godly men in the Orthodox faith.  I'm sure you will respond by saying they have all apostasized, but I can say the same about you.  I can classify you as a schismatic because you are so concerned about old calendars and how other people are living out their faith that you don't stop to think about how you can hurt people.  Why not start making videos and posts about what God is doing in your life to make you a better Orthodox Christian instead of spending all your time tearing down other people. Just a thought.
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« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2013, 09:51:17 PM »

I have absolutely no respect for heretics or new calendarists. I don't care who they are. As for self-examination, you don't have enough information about me, and are not at liberty to have an opinion. You have absolutely no idea what I do and how I live.
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« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2013, 09:55:28 PM »

I have absolutely no respect for heretics or new calendarists. I don't care who they are. As for self-examination, you don't have enough information about me, and are not at liberty to have an opinion. You have absolutely no idea what I do and how I live.
Nope, I don't, but I do know how much time and energy you spend condemning everyone that you think is a heretic. It is a lot.  Seek help, dude, seriously.
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« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2013, 09:58:28 PM »

CONCERNING THE HOLY SCRIPTURES:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: “In the Apocalypse it is said: ‘Blessed is he that readeth the words of this book.’ If this is written, it means that it is really so, for the words of the Sacred Scripture are the words of the Holy Spirit.”

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: “Nothing of discrepancy will be found in Sacred Scripture, nor will there be found any statement in opposition to any other statement.”

St. Basil the Great: “Plainly it is a falling away from faith and an offense chargeable to pride, either to reject anything that is in Scripture, or to introduce anything that is not in Scripture"

Gregory the Theologian: “We who extend the accuracy of the Spirit to every letter and serif [of Scripture] will never admit, for it were impious to do so, that even the smallest matters were recorded in a careless and hasty manner by those who wrote them down.”


Saints Amphilocius and Gregory the Theologian tell us to accept the books of Moses and all the Bible.
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« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2013, 09:58:58 PM »


If you look at his youtube videos, he's talking about reptilians and sorts of wacked out conspiracy theory stuff. Based on his videos, I think he has anathemized everyone in the history of the Church.  Roll Eyes

You are doing what I advised against in my video: taking once piece of the explanation, blowing it out of proportion, and spreading rumors or slander. I clarified that I believe the Reptilian phenomenon is rooted in the devil.

Last time I had a conversation on "reptilians" was in a psychiatry ward with a schizophrenic.
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« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2013, 10:01:42 PM »

but I do know how much time and energy you spend condemning everyone that you think is a heretic. It is a lot.  Seek help, dude, seriously.

The Church has condemned heretics. I simply remind people about this. And the fact you think I need help for condemning heretics (which Implies there is something wrong with me for loving truth) shows that your mind has been influenced by the culture we live. May God help you. Saint Philaret said that today there is a lack of love for truth.
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« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2013, 10:02:29 PM »

Romaios,

do you believe in demons? That's all they are.
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« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2013, 10:04:03 PM »

but I do know how much time and energy you spend condemning everyone that you think is a heretic. It is a lot.  Seek help, dude, seriously.

The Church has condemned heretics. I simply remind people about this. And the fact you think I need help for condemning heretics (which Implies there is something wrong with me for loving truth) shows that your mind has been influenced by the culture we live. May God help you. Saint Philaret said that today there is a lack of love for truth.

You know what they say, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Put your heretic hammer away.  Good gosh, man, if you were one of the 12 Apostles, you would have anathemized the other 11!
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« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2013, 10:04:54 PM »

Romaios,

do you believe in demons? That's all they are.
I will give you a tip.  This one is for free.

THERE ARE NO REPTILIANS. 

Unless, of course, you are David Ickes.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2013, 10:06:29 PM »

if you were one of the 12 Apostles, you would have anathemized the other 11!

No I would not. Stop trusting your thoughts and stop misrepresenting me! Get your information right, and think about what you are saying.

MET. PHILARENT:

“Let us remember that this indifference to the truth is one of the main woes of our age of apostasies. Value the truth, O man! Be a fighter for the truth… Place the truth higher than all else in life, O man, and never allow yourself to decline in any way from the true path…”

St. Gregory the Theologian says, “By your silence you can betray God”.
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« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2013, 10:09:02 PM »


THERE ARE NO REPTILIANS. 

Unless, of course, you are David Ickes.  Roll Eyes

Are you even qualified to have an opinion? The Reptilians phenomenon exist in ancient cultures. But I interpret the phenomenon from a christian standpoint, and link it to the demonic.

Demons appeared in many forms to Saint Anthony.
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« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2013, 10:09:13 PM »

Romaios,

do you believe in demons? That's all they are.

The guy I talked to seemed to think they were descended from the "sons of God" who had intercourse with the "daughters of men" according to Genesis 6. They also invented technology and rule the world. They were after him...
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« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2013, 10:10:05 PM »

if you were one of the 12 Apostles, you would have anathemized the other 11!

No I would not. Stop trusting your thoughts and stop misrepresenting me! Get your information right, and think about what you are saying.

MET. PHILARENT:

“Let us remember that this indifference to the truth old calendar is one of the main woes of our age of apostasies. Value the truth old calendar, O man! Be a fighter for the truth old calendar… Place the truth old calendar higher than all else in life, O man, and never allow yourself to decline in any way from the true path old calendar…”

St. Gregory the Theologian says, “By your silence you can betray God”.
Fixed.
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« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2013, 10:22:27 PM »

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St. Barsanuphius of Optina: “In the Apocalypse it is said: ‘Blessed is he that readeth the words of this book.’ If this is written, it means that it is really so, for the words of the Sacred Scripture are the words of the Holy Spirit.”

This has zero to do with whether or not its literal history or symbolic and representing timeless spiritual truth(s); for either way it would be true and could be the words of the Spirit; even Jesus taught in allegories.

Quote
St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: “Nothing of discrepancy will be found in Sacred Scripture, nor will there be found any statement in opposition to any other statement.”


Again, nothing about whether or not to interpret it literally; literally or no, you can read it with no discrepancies and no contradictions. 

Quote
St. Basil the Great: “Plainly it is a falling away from faith and an offense chargeable to pride, either to reject anything that is in Scripture, or to introduce anything that is not in Scripture"

Taking something to represent a profound spiritual truth which has important implications for your faith and growth is not rejecting it, by any means.

Quote
Gregory the Theologian: “We who extend the accuracy of the Spirit to every letter and serif [of Scripture] will never admit, for it were impious to do so, that even the smallest matters were recorded in a careless and hasty manner by those who wrote them down.”

A literal history, and symbolic account representing spiritual truth are equally accurate.

Quote
Saints Amphilocius and Gregory the Theologian tell us to accept the books of Moses and all the Bible.

I see nothing here that leads me to believe they tell us we have to accept every last word as literal history.

-C
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« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2013, 10:33:41 PM »

warren,

I only quoted saints to show that we Orthodox Christians accept the totality of Scripture. It is only liberal heretics who want to allegorize everything. Yes, Jesus poke in allegory, but not all the time.

The attack on Genesis, and the neurotic need of certain individuals to spiritualize it, is rooted in an agenda to destroy the historical genealogy of Christ, his deity and atonement. It is an attack on the Christian Church and the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2013, 01:45:53 AM »

St. Basil the Great:
St. Gregory the Theologian:

Yet Sts. Gregory and Basil were impressed enough with Origen that they compiled a book full of his best stuff, The Philocalia of Origen, half of which is about Scripture, and which defends an allegorized interpretation of some parts of the Old Testament history.

EDIT--Sorry, didn't see your most recent post, in which you accept that some things can be accepted allegorically. Perhaps this includes "historical" passages, perhaps not, I'm not sure  angel
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« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2013, 01:47:30 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?
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« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2013, 02:15:08 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam
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« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2013, 02:21:52 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam

Proof that you've read none of my posts in any threads where Incognito has, ahem, contributed. Spare me your sanctimony, Gebre.  Angry
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« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2013, 02:34:05 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Very useful argument. I am persuaded
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« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2013, 02:38:26 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam

Proof that you've read none of my posts in any threads where Incognito has, ahem, contributed. Spare me your sanctimony, Gebre.  Angry

You accuse me of sanctimony when you're the one personally ridiculing someone? OK. Good luck with that.


Selam
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« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2013, 02:44:54 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam

Proof that you've read none of my posts in any threads where Incognito has, ahem, contributed. Spare me your sanctimony, Gebre.  Angry

You accuse me of sanctimony when you're the one personally ridiculing someone? OK. Good luck with that.


Selam

Just as you blame a series of children's books you've never read for leading young people astray, you're accusing me of ridiculing another forum member without having read any of my posts responding to his. Nice.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2013, 02:53:04 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam

Proof that you've read none of my posts in any threads where Incognito has, ahem, contributed. Spare me your sanctimony, Gebre.  Angry

You accuse me of sanctimony when you're the one personally ridiculing someone? OK. Good luck with that.


Selam

Just as you blame a series of children's books you've never read for leading young people astray, you're accusing me of ridiculing another forum member without having read any of my posts responding to his. Nice.  Roll Eyes

Who's "fulminating" now?


Selam
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« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2013, 03:07:20 AM »

Gebre, to be fair, Incognito does fulminate quite a bit, and a lot of people are getting frustrated by him, so I would cut LBK some slack.   Smiley

Everyone,

I have a question which actually goes to the OP!    Shocked

There is a young woman in the community around here who is claiming to have visions.  She also says that Christ and the Mother of God take over her body and speak through her.  I know someone who went to see her and he saw it.  Oil poured from her hands (kind of like Myrna,) and she prophesied.  

Normally I dismissed these things as someone trying to get attention, but this man who saw her said the prophesies turned out to be true.  They related to events that were going on in other places that this young woman would not have known about, and what she said that related to them turned out to be true.  The man who told me about this is someone I have known for a long time and he would not make this stuff up.

The prophesies made me think of one of St. Antony's sayings about how demons trick people into thinking they are prophets.  I think he also described this in his life written by St. Athanasius.  The demons see things going on in a place and then they go to a Christian in another place and relay that information to him, to puff him up with pride and make him think he is a prophet.  Then he leads others astray by giving the information as a prophesy and people believe in him.

So this makes me wonder if the young woman is being victimized by demons.

Anyway, the reason I am writing about this is I would like it if others can give me other sources for this phenomenon in addition to St. Antony.  I seem to recall that St. John of the Ladder wrote about this, but I am not sure.  Are there any others?  I am especially looking for desert fathers, as I think they had the most experience wrestling with demons.

Thanks ahead of time.   Smiley
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« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2013, 03:24:42 AM »

Gebre, to be fair, Incognito does fulminate quite a bit, and a lot of people are getting frustrated by him, so I would cut LBK some slack.   Smiley

OK. I respect you Salpy, and so I will apologize.

LBK, forgive me for venting my overall frustrations with the behavior of others on you. That wasn't fair.



Selam
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« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2013, 03:27:42 AM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam

Proof that you've read none of my posts in any threads where Incognito has, ahem, contributed. Spare me your sanctimony, Gebre.  Angry

You accuse me of sanctimony when you're the one personally ridiculing someone? OK. Good luck with that.


Selam

Just as you blame a series of children's books you've never read for leading young people astray, you're accusing me of ridiculing another forum member without having read any of my posts responding to his. Nice.  Roll Eyes

Who's "fulminating" now?


Selam

Excuse me, but there's a world of difference in asking pertinent questions, and ranting on about saints and holy elders being heretics because of the alleged color of their bones, and branding people, regional churches and serving hierarchs as heretics and heretical for a variety of reasons, with none of these allegations substantiated in any way.

Have you forgotten the thread Incognito started where he openly and publicly proclaimed Met. Kallistos (Ware) a heretic, without a shred of proof? Refresh your memory:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49947.0/all.html
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« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2013, 03:29:09 AM »

Gebre, to be fair, Incognito does fulminate quite a bit, and a lot of people are getting frustrated by him, so I would cut LBK some slack.   Smiley

OK. I respect you Salpy, and so I will apologize.

LBK, forgive me for venting my overall frustrations with the behavior of others on you. That wasn't fair.



Selam

Apology accepted. But don't be so quick to criticize others when you haven't seen the evidence first.
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« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2013, 03:31:33 AM »

It's late.  Go to bed, you two.
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« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2013, 03:32:06 AM »

Wait.  I just realized how that sounded.  You know what I mean.

Good night.
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« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2013, 03:36:23 AM »

Wait.  I just realized how that sounded.  You know what I mean.

Good night.

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2013, 04:20:30 AM »

Salpy,

The Lord and the Theotokos do not take over peoples bodies. The girl is experiencing somekind of demonic possession or possibly a psychotic manifestation.
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« Reply #98 on: July 23, 2013, 04:38:35 AM »

Gebre,

What did I say in this thread that you don't agree with?

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« Reply #99 on: July 23, 2013, 04:43:26 AM »

Gebre,

What did I say in this thread that you don't agree with?


I don't think there was anything in this thread. Some stuff on other threads though. But that makes you no different from everyone else here. There's nobody that agrees with me on everything.


Selam
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« Reply #100 on: July 23, 2013, 11:20:02 AM »

Salpy,

The Lord and the Theotokos do not take over peoples bodies. The girl is experiencing somekind of demonic possession or possibly a psychotic manifestation.

That's another big red flag that tells me this young woman's experience is not from God.  God works with us in our free will.  He doesn't take us over and use us like hand puppets.  If anything, this woman's experience reminds me of a medium at a seance.  It's not Christian.

The question is:  Is the woman faking it to get attention, or is she possessed by demons?  I was tempted to think she is faking it, but the prophesy issue makes me wonder if it is not really demons.

Again, if people can give me sources for this in addition to St. Antony, I'd appreciate it.
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« Reply #101 on: July 23, 2013, 12:01:29 PM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam
I don't know if you are referencing my posts, but I will respond.  There is frankly no point in trying to convince someone that the reptilians don't exist and aren't secretly demons bent on taking over the world.  The number of posts to have the argument would be excessively long and get no where because if someone believes in demon reptilians, they probably have already crossed the line of where reason and logic are helpful.  I am not on here to debate people on every nonsense theory they have, but if I see nonsense, I am going to call it as such.
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« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2013, 06:16:16 PM »

Right.  Except that I didn't pay much attention to the reptilians.  He asserts that the late Elder Paisios' bones are black because he's an ecumenist heretic, but can provide no evidence that the tomb was opened and the relics exhumed and inspected, and he can't even guarantee (by his own admission) that his source is telling the truth.  Nevertheless, he stands by it.  Oh, and God spoke to him at age 15.  And he sees devils. 

And all that's after initially engaging his points.

When he does make points that are valid, or defends adequately his positions, I don't think you'll see any "ridicule".  But, quite frankly, there hasn't been as much of that as there has been of the other stuff.       
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« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2013, 08:30:04 PM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.
If you do a little research you will find blackened bones were often considered a sign of sanctity.
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« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2013, 09:48:10 PM »

Regarding my question at the top of this page, here are the three sources to which I referred:

Sayings of the Desert Fathers, St. Antony:

Quote
12. Some brothers came to find Abba Anthony to tell him
about the visions they were having, and to find out from him
if they were true or if they came from the demons.  They had
a donkey, which died on the way.  When they reached the
place where the old man was, he said to them before they
could ask him anything, 'How was it that the little donkey
died on the way here?' They said, 'How do you know about
that, Father?' And he told them, 'The demons showed me
what happened.' So they said, 'That was what we came to
question you about, for fear we were being deceived, for we
have visions which often turn out to be true.' Thus the old
man convinced them, by the example of the donkey, that
their visions came from the demons.

http://popekirillos.net/EN/books/Sayingsd.pdf

(pages 8-9)


The Life of St. Antony, by St. Athanasius:

Quote
31. 'Wherefore if they pretend to foretell the future, let no one give heed, for often they announce beforehand that the brethren are coming days after. And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them. Whence we must give no heed to them, but ought rather to confute them when speaking, since we do not need them. For what wonder is it, if with more subtle bodies than men have , when they have seen them start on their journey, they surpass them in speed, and announce their coming? Just as a horseman getting a start of a man on foot announces the arrival of the latter beforehand, so in this there is no need for us to wonder at them. For they know none of those things which are not yet in existence; but God only is He who knows all things before their birth. But these, like thieves, running off first with what they see, proclaim it: to how many already have they announced our business— that we are assembled together, and discuss measures against them, before any one of us could go and tell these things. This in good truth a fleet-footed boy could do, getting far ahead of one less swift. But what I mean is this. If any one begins to walk from the Thebaid, or from any other district, before he begins to walk, they do not know whether he will walk. But when they have seen him walking they run on, and before he comes up report his approach. And so it falls out that after a few days the travellers arrive. But often the walkers turn back, and the demons prove false.'

32. 'So, too, with respect to the water of the river, they sometimes make foolish statements. For having seen that there has been much rain in the regions of Ethiopia, and knowing that they are the cause of the flood of the river before the water has come to Egypt they run on and announce it. And this men could have told, if they had as great power of running as the demons. And as David's spy 2 Samuel 18:24 going up to a lofty place saw the man approaching better than one who stayed down below, and the forerunner himself announced, before the others came up, not those things which had not taken place, but those things which were already on the way and were being accomplished, so these also prefer to labour, and declare what is happening to others simply for the sake of deceiving them. If, however, Providence meantime plans anything different for the waters or wayfarers— for Providence can do this— the demons are deceived, and those who gave heed to them cheated.'

33. 'Thus in days gone by arose the oracles of the Greeks, and thus they were led astray by the demons. But thus also thenceforth their deception was brought to an end by the coming of the Lord , who brought to nought the demons and their devices. For they know nothing of themselves, but, like thieves, what they get to know from others they pass on, and guess at rather than foretell things. Therefore if sometimes they speak the truth, let no one marvel at them for this. For experienced physicians also, since they see the same malady in different people, often foretell what it is, making it out by their acquaintance with it. Pilots, too, and farmers, from their familiarity with the weather, tell at a glance the state of the atmosphere, and forecast whether it will be stormy or fine. And no one would say that they do this by inspiration, but from experience and practice. So if the demons sometimes do the same by guesswork, let no one wonder at it or heed them. For what use to the hearers is it to know from them what is going to happen before the time? Or what concern have we to know such things, even if the knowledge be true? For it is not productive of virtue, nor is it any token of goodness. For none of us is judged for what he knows not, and no one is called blessed because he has learning and knowledge. But each one will be called to judgment in these points— whether he have kept the faith and truly observed the commandments.'

34. 'Wherefore there is no need to set much value on these things, nor for the sake of them to practise a life of discipline and labour; but that living well we may please God. And we neither ought to pray to know the future, nor to ask for it as the reward of our discipline; but our prayer should be that the Lord may be our fellow-helper for victory over the devil. And if even once we have a desire to know the future, let us be pure in mind, for I believe that if a soul is perfectly pure and in its natural state, it is able , being clear-sighted, to see more and further than the demons— for it has the Lord who reveals to it— like the soul of Elisha, which saw what was done 2 Kings 5:26 by Gehazi, and beheld the hosts 2 Kings 6:17 standing on its side.'


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm



The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 3:

Quote
28. The demons of vainglory prophesy in dreams. Being unscrupulous, they guess the future and
foretell it to us. When these visions come true, we are amazed; and we are indeed elated with the
thought that we are already near to the gift of foreknowledge. A demon is often a prophet to those who
believe him, but he is always a liar to those who despise him. Being a spirit he sees what is happening
in the lower air, and noticing that someone is dying, he foretells it to the more credulous types of
people through dreams. But the demons know nothing about the future from foreknowledge. For if
they did, then the sorcerers would also have been able to foretell our death.

http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf




Is there anything else that anyone is aware of?
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« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2013, 10:15:16 PM »

There is a young woman in the community around here who is claiming to have visions.  She also says that Christ and the Mother of God take over her body and speak through her.  I know someone who went to see her and he saw it.  Oil poured from her hands (kind of like Myrna,) and she prophesied.  

Normally I dismissed these things as someone trying to get attention, but this man who saw her said the prophesies turned out to be true.  They related to events that were going on in other places that this young woman would not have known about, and what she said that related to them turned out to be true.  The man who told me about this is someone I have known for a long time and he would not make this stuff up.

The prophesies made me think of one of St. Antony's sayings about how demons trick people into thinking they are prophets.  I think he also described this in his life written by St. Athanasius.  The demons see things going on in a place and then they go to a Christian in another place and relay that information to him, to puff him up with pride and make him think he is a prophet.  Then he leads others astray by giving the information as a prophesy and people believe in him.

So this makes me wonder if the young woman is being victimized by demons.

As Incognito777 said, authentic visions/spiritual phenomena of divine origin do not involve a suspension of human free will.  If that's actually the "seer's" own explanation of what's happening, that would concern me.  Everything else seems, to me anyway, to be something that could theoretically go either way, but that's definitely the red flag. 

Has your bishop been consulted about this, to investigate the claims?  What about her priest?  Does she come to church regularly and participate normally?  Is she humble or attracting attention and a following to herself?  What does she do with her prophecies, with the oil, etc.?       
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« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2013, 10:20:36 PM »

Incognito, is there anyone or anything that you're NOT fulminating against?

Rather than ridiculing him, why don't you address his points? I'm frankly tired of these cowardly personal attacks on anyone who expresses a view that certain people don't agree with. I don't agree with Incognito on this particular point, but I'm not gonna resort to personally attacking him because he has a different opinion than I do. Some people here need to grow up and learn to address the arguments rather than attacking the individual.


Selam
I don't know if you are referencing my posts, but I will respond.  There is frankly no point in trying to convince someone that the reptilians don't exist and aren't secretly demons bent on taking over the world.  The number of posts to have the argument would be excessively long and get no where because if someone believes in demon reptilians, they probably have already crossed the line of where reason and logic are helpful.  I am not on here to debate people on every nonsense theory they have, but if I see nonsense, I am going to call it as such.


No, I wasn't referencing your posts.


Selam
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« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2013, 10:34:53 PM »

He asserts that the late Elder Paisios' bones are black because he's an ecumenist heretic...

Actually, Elder Paisios (IIRC publicly, in an article/letter) expressed his sadness that Pat. Athenagoras "neglected old and wrinkled Mother Church and chased after other more interesting ladies" (see his "love affair" with Pope Paul VI and the RCs).

He's also known to have said about ecumenists that "they lack any spiritual kernel". 
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« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2013, 10:44:59 PM »


As Incognito777 said, authentic visions/spiritual phenomena of divine origin do not involve a suspension of human free will.  If that's actually the "seer's" own explanation of what's happening, that would concern me.  Everything else seems, to me anyway, to be something that could theoretically go either way, but that's definitely the red flag. 

Has your bishop been consulted about this, to investigate the claims?  What about her priest?  Does she come to church regularly and participate normally?  Is she humble or attracting attention and a following to herself?  What does she do with her prophecies, with the oil, etc.?       

I don't know if the bishop knows about her yet.  I just know of a few people who believe in her.  She tells people ahead of time when she is going to have her experiences, so they can come and witness it.  That's one of the things that makes me doubt that her experiences come from God.  However, she has not attracted enough attention to get a large following or an internet presence, thank goodness. 

My understanding is that she does not attend any church.  That also is a red flag.  I mean, if you were having these experiences, and they came from God, wouldn't you want to start attending church and commune? 

Regarding the oil, one person I know who believes in her gave me a piece of cotton that had some of her oil on it, so I guess she gives it away.  I don't recall what I did with it.  I probably threw it out.  I'm not going to bring that into my home if it may have a demonic source.  And like I said, some of her prophesies have evidently come true, which is one reason I think it may be demonic.

The free will issue is also a big one.  She claims that on one occasion angels came and held her down, hurting her, to force her to look at a light.  And when people are watching her, she will start talking and the claim is that the person talking through her mouth is Christ or the Mother of God.  It's like a medium channeling someone.  I just can't believe that the God I worship does that.

Whatever.  I'm probably making more of it than it warrants.  Her following is very small and it will probably fizzle out before it gets bigger.  I'm actually reluctant to make too big a deal about it on this forum, as I don't want to risk giving her publicity.  It's just that the prophesy angle of it was something I wanted to look into, as that is what her few followers use to give her credibility.  That's why I brought it up here.  I guess ultimately I am concerned about this because I've seen the damage done to people by the Vassula movement, and I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing.
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« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2013, 11:51:49 PM »


As Incognito777 said, authentic visions/spiritual phenomena of divine origin do not involve a suspension of human free will.  If that's actually the "seer's" own explanation of what's happening, that would concern me.  Everything else seems, to me anyway, to be something that could theoretically go either way, but that's definitely the red flag. 

Has your bishop been consulted about this, to investigate the claims?  What about her priest?  Does she come to church regularly and participate normally?  Is she humble or attracting attention and a following to herself?  What does she do with her prophecies, with the oil, etc.?       

I don't know if the bishop knows about her yet.  I just know of a few people who believe in her.  She tells people ahead of time when she is going to have her experiences, so they can come and witness it.  That's one of the things that makes me doubt that her experiences come from God.  However, she has not attracted enough attention to get a large following or an internet presence, thank goodness. 

My understanding is that she does not attend any church.  That also is a red flag.  I mean, if you were having these experiences, and they came from God, wouldn't you want to start attending church and commune? 

Regarding the oil, one person I know who believes in her gave me a piece of cotton that had some of her oil on it, so I guess she gives it away.  I don't recall what I did with it.  I probably threw it out.  I'm not going to bring that into my home if it may have a demonic source.  And like I said, some of her prophesies have evidently come true, which is one reason I think it may be demonic.

The free will issue is also a big one.  She claims that on one occasion angels came and held her down, hurting her, to force her to look at a light.  And when people are watching her, she will start talking and the claim is that the person talking through her mouth is Christ or the Mother of God.  It's like a medium channeling someone.  I just can't believe that the God I worship does that.

Whatever.  I'm probably making more of it than it warrants.  Her following is very small and it will probably fizzle out before it gets bigger.  I'm actually reluctant to make too big a deal about it on this forum, as I don't want to risk giving her publicity.  It's just that the prophesy angle of it was something I wanted to look into, as that is what her few followers use to give her credibility.  That's why I brought it up here.  I guess ultimately I am concerned about this because I've seen the damage done to people by the Vassula movement, and I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing.

Does she claim to be a member of your Christian community? If so, she should be reported to the bishop. We do not need false prophets.
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« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2013, 11:57:12 PM »

I'm not sure what her claims are, since she does not attend any church.
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« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2013, 11:59:33 PM »

I'm not sure what her claims are, since she does not attend any church.

Lord have mercy.

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« Reply #112 on: July 24, 2013, 12:09:29 AM »

Actually, Elder Paisios (IIRC publicly, in an article/letter) expressed his sadness that Pat. Athenagoras "neglected old and wrinkled Mother Church and chased after other more interesting ladies" (see his "love affair" with Pope Paul VI and the RCs).

He's also known to have said about ecumenists that "they lack any spiritual kernel". 

Oh, I agree, which is why the allegation that he was an ecumenist is laughable.  

Actually, ever since reading The Mountain of Silence, I've developed quite a fondness for Elder Paisios and his teachings.  I've bought a few books of his writings, and read his biography by Hieromonk Isaac in a week, so engrossed was I by it (not a small feat for me, being a 700+ page book).  I imagine what he might've said to me if I'd had the privilege of meeting him here on earth, and I think maybe it's better that we met as we did: through his teachings and through prayer.  Wink

Elder Porphyrios is another favourite.  His teachings and their application seem, to me anyway, much more balanced and practical for the layman.  He really impresses me as being a cut above many others.  
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« Reply #113 on: July 24, 2013, 12:19:08 AM »

I don't know if the bishop knows about her yet.  I just know of a few people who believe in her.  She tells people ahead of time when she is going to have her experiences, so they can come and witness it.  That's one of the things that makes me doubt that her experiences come from God.  However, she has not attracted enough attention to get a large following or an internet presence, thank goodness. 

Why do I keep hearing "Medjugorje" in the back of my head?  Tongue

Quote
My understanding is that she does not attend any church.  That also is a red flag.  I mean, if you were having these experiences, and they came from God, wouldn't you want to start attending church and commune?

Yeah, that's usually a bad sign.  Is it something of a personal choice (e.g., "He comes to me, why do I need to go there?"), or is it more of an aversion?   

Quote
Regarding the oil, one person I know who believes in her gave me a piece of cotton that had some of her oil on it, so I guess she gives it away.  I don't recall what I did with it.  I probably threw it out.  I'm not going to bring that into my home if it may have a demonic source.  And like I said, some of her prophesies have evidently come true, which is one reason I think it may be demonic.

The fulfillment of prophecies can indicate demonic influence (e.g., the knowledge of hidden or unknown things), but it need not be the case.  But there are enough red flags already.  Some exorcists claim that, in their experience, demons can cause to manifest various objects, so that could explain the oil.  I'm unaware of any Orthodox saints who gave off myrrh while alive; it's usually from their relics after death, or from icons, etc.  This "oil-from-living-people" phenomenon seems to be a RC thing, from which a lot of these things are copied. 

Quote
The free will issue is also a big one.  She claims that on one occasion angels came and held her down, hurting her, to force her to look at a light.  And when people are watching her, she will start talking and the claim is that the person talking through her mouth is Christ or the Mother of God.  It's like a medium channeling someone.  I just can't believe that the God I worship does that.

He doesn't.  That's "weird".   

Quote
Whatever.  I'm probably making more of it than it warrants.  Her following is very small and it will probably fizzle out before it gets bigger.  I'm actually reluctant to make too big a deal about it on this forum, as I don't want to risk giving her publicity.  It's just that the prophesy angle of it was something I wanted to look into, as that is what her few followers use to give her credibility.  That's why I brought it up here.  I guess ultimately I am concerned about this because I've seen the damage done to people by the Vassula movement, and I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing.

Well, it could be an evil influence, or she should just be a few screws short of a hardware store (or whatever that saying is).  It sounds like she needs some sort of help, though.  And followers are not it.  Consider bringing it up with the priest. 
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« Reply #114 on: July 24, 2013, 12:40:11 AM »

Actually, ever since reading The Mountain of Silence, I've developed quite a fondness for Elder Paisios and his teachings.  I've bought a few books of his writings, and read his biography by Hieromonk Isaac in a week, so engrossed was I by it (not a small feat for me, being a 700+ page book).  I imagine what he might've said to me if I'd had the privilege of meeting him here on earth, and I think maybe it's better that we met as we did: through his teachings and through prayer.  Wink

He's great to read in the original. A lot of his wit is lost in translation...

Quote
— Εσύ τι δουλειά κάνεις;

— Είμαι καθηγητής, Γέροντα.

— Πώ, πώ! Εσείς ο’ι καθηγητές έχετε εγωϊσμό, βρέ παιδί μου.

— Γιατί, Γέροντα;

— Γιατί εσείς οι καθηγητές λέτε «εγώ», «εσύ», «αυτός». Αυτά είναι εγωϊστικά. Όλοι είμαστε ένα… (χαμογελάει).

— Τί καθηγητής είσαι;

— Των Αγγλικών, Γέροντα!

— Πώ, πώ! Εσύ, βρέ παιδάκι μου, έχεις μεγάλο εγωϊσμό…

— Γιατί, Γέροντα;

— Βρέ παιδάκι μου, εκείνοι οι Έγγλοι το «εγώ» (I) το γράφουν με κεφαλαίο… αυτό είναι εγωϊσμός… (χαμογελάει).

***

- And you, what do you do for a living?

- I'm a teacher, Geronda!

- O, o! You teachers have egos, my child ("paidi mou" much more common in Greek - so it doesn't come across as paternalising, more like "kiddo").

- How come, Geronda?

- Because you teachers always say: "I", "you", "he". These are egotistic words. We're all one... (smiles).

- What do you teach?

- English.

- O, o! You, kiddo, have a big ego...

- Why, Geronda?

- Well, kiddo, those Inglishmen write "I" with a capital letter... That's egotism! (smiles)

Source



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« Reply #115 on: July 24, 2013, 12:46:29 AM »

He always makes me smile.  My late Metropolitan was a saint, and in life he reminded me a lot of the Elder: I can see him making those sorts of comments.  In fact, I did.  Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: July 24, 2013, 04:51:54 AM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions ...
I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical

The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.

In the time of Jesus Christ, the Sadducees were the Jewish sect known for their materialism and rejection of belief in the future resurrection of the dead and the spirit realm generally.  The Sadducees' materialist philosophy roughly corresponded to the Epicureans of the Roman world.  

The Pharisees roughly corresponded to the Stoics as their gentile counterparts.  The Saduccees sect dwindled out of existence, but the medieval Rabbis were the direct continuation of the Pharisees.  

Most of Judaism abandoned such beliefs and became secularized at approximately the same time as the rest of Europe during Voltaire's so-called "enlightenment" of the eighteenth century.  The Jewish branch of the "enlightenment" is called the Haskalah movement and was led by Voltaire's friend Moses Mendelssohn.  Haskalah was basically anti-religious and the philosophical father of both Reform and Conservative Judaism.  Abraham Geiger, who founded Reform Judaism in the nineteenth century, viewed it as a revival of Sadduceeism.  Likewise, Karl Marx viewed communism as a revival of Epicureanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskalah

The eighteenth century Haskalah movement was the occasion when most of Judaism turned the corner towards secularism.
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« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2013, 06:23:07 PM »

The person who I originally argued this with was an administrator at another religious site, and he was well versed in Judaism as he was brought up by Hasidic Jews.

 He was telling someone else that it was the christians who invented the concept of real demons and a real satan, he was adamant that there were teachings and written proof going back before Jesus that showed this, as he was taught to believe, this is why I had to comer to the conclusion that they have bent the past to fit the current views, and also because of their dislike of Christians overtaking their religion, or at least using it in a way hurtful to them.

I can see their side of it too and how it is painful for others to hijack your religion, and turn it against your belief. But to now lie and say it is christians who made these things up as real beings is going too far.

Here is what the wiki for demon I looked up after your link,
Judaism[edit]
According to some rabbinic sources, demons were believed to be under the dominion of a king or chief, either Asmodai[22] or, in the older Haggadah, Samael ("the angel of death", also called the "chief of the devils"), who killed via poison. Occasionally a demon was called satan: "Stand not in the way of an ox when coming from the pasture, for Satan dances between his horns".[23]
Demonology never became an essential feature of Jewish theology.[citation needed] However, the existence of demons was never questioned by the Talmudists and late rabbis, nor did most of the medieval thinkers question their reality. Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra explicitly denied their existence. Their point of view eventually became mainstream Jewish understanding.
Rabbinical demonology has three classes of demons, though they are scarcely separable one from another. There were the shedim, the mazziḳim ("harmers"), and the ruḥin ("spirits"). There were also lilin ("night spirits"), ṭelane ("shade", or "evening spirits"), ṭiharire ("midday spirits"), and ẓafrire ("morning spirits"), as well as the "demons that bring famine" and "such as cause storm and earthquake".[24][25]

Thank you for your input and any other thoughts would be welcome.
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« Reply #118 on: July 24, 2013, 06:43:26 PM »

any other thoughts would be welcome.

The 'Soul After Death' by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose is one of the more awesome books I have read on the spirit realm.
I have read other books by the knowledgeable Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos and am confident that his book 'Life After Death' complements this perfectly providing vital theological knowledge not covered by Fr Seraphim.
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« Reply #119 on: July 24, 2013, 06:46:29 PM »

Actually, I found Met. Hierotheos' book to be much more useful than Fr Seraphim's book when it comes to the actual teaching on the state of the soul after death.  Never checked it out re: demons, though. 
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« Reply #120 on: July 24, 2013, 06:49:39 PM »

Actually, I found [insert any author here] book to be much more useful than Fr Seraphim's book when it comes to the actual teaching on [insert any topic here].

Words to live by Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: July 24, 2013, 06:54:12 PM »

Hey, cover up, your bias is showing.  Tongue
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« Reply #122 on: July 24, 2013, 07:34:46 PM »

Thank you for your input and any other thoughts would be welcome.
Fr. Seraphim Rose's book states that demons are arranged in military style by divisions.
Each demonic division is like a military rating or occupation specialty.  Each kind of demon corresponds to a certain kind of human sin such as anger, gluttony, lust, heresy, or mercilessness, etc.  These demons attempt to persuade men into their respective brands of passions.

'The Ladder of Divine Ascent' by Saint John Climacus is a manual about climbing a ladder to heaven by combatting the diverse kinds of sins.  Each rung on the ladder of 30 steps corresponds to either a kind of demon or passion to be overcome or to a virtue to be acquired.  The book describes specific characteristics of the various demons and how to overcome them.  

'The Ladder of Divine Ascent'
By Saint John Climacus
http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf
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« Reply #123 on: July 25, 2013, 06:11:57 AM »


There is frankly no point in trying to convince someone that the reptilians don't exist and aren't secretly demons bent on taking over the world.  The number of posts to have the argument would be excessively long and get no where because if someone believes in demon reptilians, they probably have already crossed the line of where reason and logic are helpful.  I am not on here to debate people on every nonsense theory they have, but if I see nonsense, I am going to call it as such.

Since demons appeared to St. Anthony and other saints in so many different ways, why do you preclude the possibility that they cannot also take on the appearance of reptilian humanoids? I understand your view, but what do you base it on? You need to give a valid argument. At this point, I haven't see any argument, only assertion. Second, are you even qualified to have an opinion? How much research have you even done? The "Reptilian" phenomenon is well known in ancient cultures. In fact, the serpent appeared to Eve in the garden, and the devil is called the "serpent" in the book of Revelation. That you may be ignorant of the facts, does nothing to disprove them. I simply interpret this phenomenon from the Orthodox Christian and patristic standpoint, and link it to the demonic. Here are some books about the demonic reptilian creatures, but I really don't recommend you read them. I just want to supply scholarly material.

Blue Blood, True Blood, by Stewart Swerdlow;
The Body Snatcher, by Susan Reed;
The God's of Eden, by William Bramley;
Reality of the Serpent Race, & The Subterranean Origin of UFO's, by Commander and Branton;
The Dulce Wars, by Branton;
Humanity's extraterrestrial origins, by Dr. Arthur David Horn;
Flying serpents and dragons:The story of mankind's Reptilian past, R.A. Boulay;
From the ashes of angels:The forbidden legacy of a fallen race, by Andrew Collins;
The Stars are Falling: Reasons to Believe We are Enslaved by the Serpent, Matthew Delooze;
The murder of reality, Pierre Sabak;
The Dragons of Eden, by Carl Sagan;

Please don't misrepresent my position. I don't claim Reptilian men are walking around everywhere. I claim that the Reptilian phenomenon (the phenomenon exists) is rooted in the devil. That's all.


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« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2013, 04:57:11 PM »

Quote
God is said to have given Satan the power to deceive whoever he likes. God is also said to place lies in the minds of prophets.

God is said, both by his worshipers and by his opponents, to do and to be a lot of things that may not be entirely true (a glance at some recent threads is enough to demonstrate this).  What are your sources for asserting the claims above?  At least let's start on the same page.   


Rev 12;9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.


Quote
Quote
With both our best and woirse antagonists working against us, there is no way of knowing if the demons inside of us are from God or Satan so I would suggest ignoring all talks of demons as fiction.

You take the "demons inside of us" as a given, but because of an assumed inability to discern their origin, you want to pretend that they're not really a given.  Right. 


In esoteric maters care must be taken.
Scriptures say to test all things and that is what must be done before any reality is given to the spirits we might find through apotheosis.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=956764;topic=52430.45;sesc=3b125573e64bd6ca5a7f38a8fd31aa73

Both Satan and God are within us.

Do you believe Jesus when he says that the kingdom of God is within you?
Do you believe those quotes above that say God may lie to you?

Quote
Quote
After all, that is likely what they are unless one wants to think that God did not do justice by sending Satan to hell with his demons instead of giving him freedom and dominion here on earth.

Would God be that stupid and immoral?
No.
He would send Satan straight to hell. Right?

What kind of a god are you?

Just a God WIP.

I found the school and am studying as I can.
Jacobs ladder has many rungs.

Regards
DL
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« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2013, 11:54:50 AM »


If you do a little research you will find blackened bones were often considered a sign of sanctity.

Can you cite me a source?
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« Reply #126 on: August 10, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »



Blue Blood, True Blood, by Stewart Swerdlow;
The Body Snatcher, by Susan Reed;
The God's of Eden, by William Bramley;
Reality of the Serpent Race, & The Subterranean Origin of UFO's, by Commander and Branton;
The Dulce Wars, by Branton;
Humanity's extraterrestrial origins, by Dr. Arthur David Horn;
Flying serpents and dragons:The story of mankind's Reptilian past, R.A. Boulay;
From the ashes of angels:The forbidden legacy of a fallen race, by Andrew Collins;
The Stars are Falling: Reasons to Believe We are Enslaved by the Serpent, Matthew Delooze;
The murder of reality, Pierre Sabak;
The Dragons of Eden, by Carl Sagan;

I regret listing these demonic books in my previous post and here. Maybe the moderator can delete these books but leave my other comments.
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« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2013, 06:48:45 AM »

I was reading an article by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, called "Alien Abductions and the Orthodox Christian." He said something interesting.

 "Their abductors typically "appear as tall or short luminous entities that may be translucent, or at least not altogether solid. Reptilian creatures have been seen....But by far the most common entity observed are the small ‘grays,’ humanoid beings three to four feet in height....

See? His statement supports my belief that demons can take the appearance of Reptilians. He has done his research, and therefore has the right to an opinion.
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Maria
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« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2013, 04:31:29 PM »

I was reading an article by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, called "Alien Abductions and the Orthodox Christian." He said something interesting.

 "Their abductors typically "appear as tall or short luminous entities that may be translucent, or at least not altogether solid. Reptilian creatures have been seen....But by far the most common entity observed are the small ‘grays,’ humanoid beings three to four feet in height....

See? His statement supports my belief that demons can take the appearance of Reptilians. He has done his research, and therefore has the right to an opinion.

This statement is absurd. From one statement, you believe that aliens exist or that demons have abducted people?

From this quotation given, the cleric could be quoting from second-hand information obtained from those who think that they have been abducted. What is the context of this quotation?
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« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2013, 11:31:17 PM »

Google it, read the rather lengthy article and draw your own conclusion.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2013, 11:43:08 PM »

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/alien_abduct.aspx

Here is the article. 

Also note that Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna is part of the Orthodox Church of Greece, Holy Synod in Resistance.
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