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Author Topic: Demonic Manifestations  (Read 6169 times) Average Rating: 0
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stavros_388
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« on: July 15, 2013, 10:57:17 PM »

We often read about demons attacking and tempting Orthodox ascetics, but rarely do we hear of them attacking regular folk. I assume it is because most people are so worldly, distracted, and weighed down with passions that demons need not waste their time with us... we're already doing what they want us to do. Ascetics, on the other hand, are striving with greater diligence to become pure. Can anyone speak to this or expand on this? Are demonic attacks rare for most Christians because most of us are of little concern to demons? Why do they primarily manifest themselves to monks and nuns? Or are the spiritual senses of the monks and nuns just so much better refined that they can sense such manifestations when we cannot?
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 01:10:47 AM »

I recently read Malachi Martins book about exorcisms from the 1970s, Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans, there were a broad spectrum of cases thoroughly examined within the Catholic church , and while there was one priest afflicted , the rest were regular people.

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 02:38:36 AM »

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

Such folks should have never been ordained priests nor tonsured as monastics. Spiritual immaturity writ large if this is what they seek.
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 02:53:00 AM »

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

Such folks should have never been ordained priests nor tonsured as monastics. Spiritual immaturity writ large if this is what they seek.

Well I wish I remember where it was , because it was actually quite profound when I read it and it was from a good source but it has been about a year or more now.

But it was described in a way that was respectful and wholly responsible, I just do not remember what it said now, just the basics.
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 03:06:13 AM »

I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

Such folks should have never been ordained priests nor tonsured as monastics. Spiritual immaturity writ large if this is what they seek.

Well I wish I remember where it was , because it was actually quite profound when I read it and it was from a good source but it has been about a year or more now.

But it was described in a way that was respectful and wholly responsible, I just do not remember what it said now, just the basics.

Dare I ask, have you been Orthodox for as long as I have?
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 03:07:39 AM »

God will only allow one to be tempted according to his level. So, non-ascetics will not get the same type of temptations as ascetics; non-ascetics struggle with moral problems rather than spiritual (I'd say).
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 03:25:50 AM »

Here is my two cents.  This is just theoretical meanderings not based in actual experience, but on some comparative studies, in many of which I have encountered water symbolizing the unconscious mind.

See the icon, "Lord, save me." ??

The demons may be in the water, in the way down deep, below the sub conscious, way down in parts of the mind we are never aware of.  

For regular folk, with regular minds, in whom the waters are still made choppy by the hectic, chaotic flow of life and dealing with the material world, the demons manifest to us as the passions, the lusts, and so forth; so that as someone said above we experience this as moral issues-- I am just building upon what IoanC said.

For ascetics and mystics who have further removed themselves from material concerns, and quieted the passions and lusts to such an extent that the waters of the mind, the vast choppy sea of the unconscious, has become still and quiet, they may experience these same influences in their more spiritual sense, as demonic entities.

Muddy water, when left to settle, becomes crystal clear.

However we encounter the sea of experience, as demonic or as passionate and lustful, Christ will lift us out.

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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 03:53:34 AM »

I don’t have the answers to all of your questions, but I can say all of the demonic possessions I have heard from people involve every day normal folk.  I would even say most of them do not even realize what has happened.  I will also say the Catholic Church may be involved in most of these cases, but I know many people, one personally, who had to deal with more than one possession.  In his words, the scariest thing he ever had to deal with.
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 04:46:34 AM »

This reminds me of that story yeshuaisiam told us. If only I could remember the thread.
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 06:18:46 AM »

I don’t have the answers to all of your questions, but I can say all of the demonic possessions I have heard from people involve every day normal folk.  I would even say most of them do not even realize what has happened.  I will also say the Catholic Church may be involved in most of these cases, but I know many people, one personally, who had to deal with more than one possession.  In his words, the scariest thing he ever had to deal with.

Reminds me of a friend who related her experience at an exorcism in Greece, one of those assembled laughed at one point and the subject of the exorcism turned and a rough voice thundered, "And you are sleeping with your brother-in-law". The actual words used were a coarser version of the same thing.
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 09:52:40 AM »


I think these are real.  I've even heard of young children being bothered by them.

I've also spoken, at length, with an Orthodox priest from Canada who "specializes" in this sort of thing.  The stories he told gave me goosebumps. 

My personal view on the matter is to not be "too interested" in such things.

When asked to pray and help someone, do it....otherwise, concentrate on your personal salvation, doing good, reading scripture, etc.  There are better things to occupy your time.
 

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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 09:55:31 AM »


I think these are real.  I've even heard of young children being bothered by them.

I've also spoken, at length, with an Orthodox priest from Canada who "specializes" in this sort of thing.  The stories he told gave me goosebumps. 

My personal view on the matter is to not be "too interested" in such things.

When asked to pray and help someone, do it....otherwise, concentrate on your personal salvation, doing good, reading scripture, etc.  There are better things to occupy your time.
 



Exactly, my friend's advice was to stay away from such things.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 11:08:41 AM »

My personal view on the matter is to not be "too interested" in such things.

When asked to pray and help someone, do it....otherwise, concentrate on your personal salvation, doing good, reading scripture, etc.  There are better things to occupy your time.

Yes, this is sensible, thanks.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 12:44:09 PM »

Demons regularly attack everyone through temptations to sin.  That is their "ordinary activity", if I may use the terminology of the RC Fr Gabriele Amorth (an exorcist for the Vatican).  If you've ever committed a sin in response to a temptation, a demon fought you and momentarily won.  A succession of such victories may weigh us down enough that they gain a foothold in our lives through our lack of struggle against them and our hardening in sin.  That in itself may be all there is to it, but it is also possible for what we commonly regard as "demonic activity" to manifest itself in such circumstances.  This can happen "just like that", but more commonly there might be some involvement with the occult or some other "escalation" that brings it on.  This manifestation of demonic activity Amorth calls the demons' "extraordinary activity".   

But when a person turns away from sin and turns to the Lord decisively, whether or not that involves embracing monasticism, demons will fight harder to win him back because the person himself has begun to fight against them with the power of God.  In the majority of such cases, it's probably just an escalation of temptation, but in particular cases there may be some "manifestation".  The goal is the same: to entice, to frighten, to ensnare, to capture.

It's important that we know a little about these things (most likely, what is in Scripture is enough), but also important that we not "glorify" it too much.  Christ has conquered the power of Satan.  If Satan acts, he nevertheless is always subject to the power of God.  He acts only within the limits God allows, for the time that God allows, etc.  When it's time to go, he goes.  And we have weapons: prayer, fasting, the sacraments, almsgiving, ascetic practices, and so on.  If we live a faithful life within our abilities, not getting too lazy or strict beyond what we can handle, we'll be fine.  We're in good hands.     

 
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 08:59:28 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.

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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 11:04:23 PM »

Seems to me one of our Priests told a fairly scarey story on one of the threads too.

I will say I had an experience once that left me scared for days. Funny thing was there was nothing scarey about it on the surface, it was just the overwhelming sense that something was not right and good. I have zero desire to repeat that again.  Sad

 I also agree, for the little its worth, with those of you above who have suggested that we are too desensitized to really notice even the scarey stuff most of the time, though I'll add I think we miss things of God for the same reason.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2013, 02:28:30 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 

Seems to me one of our Priests told a fairly scarey story on one of the threads too.



Yes, I recall that thread.  I think it was one of our posters who was the altar boy at the time...and the darkness followed a man who had walked in to a Vespers service.  That was creepy and very scary.

I think we are desensitized to a degree because we "see" it every day....in the movies, on TV, in the games, books, etc.  All the kids are watching the Walking Dead, Twilight, and I don't even know what else..... Evil has been glamorized and therefore, rather discredited in the eyes of society.  They love it, but, they don't necessarily believe it to be real.

Just try to hold a conversation with the average Joe on this topic....you will be ridiculed.

This is the best way to destroy mankind....like a cancer from the inside....slowly eating away....

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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2013, 09:11:36 PM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2013, 09:55:10 PM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.

How did you discern that it was a demon and not a ghost or hallucination?

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2013, 03:23:40 AM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 



Yes, I was told this by a very knowledgeable site administrator(Jewish) at another religious site. He has studied Judaism all his life and while he said he was not practicing at the time he was brought up by the strict Hasidic Jews.

He was telling someone else in a thread that it was Christians who invented demons who are real, as well as a literal devil.
He said that the Jews only see them as metaphorical characters, who represent sin and lawbreakers, or something to that effect. But he was adamant that Jews do not now believe in demons as real. Course he said they never did, but alluded to some sects of Judaism that might have at one time, but no longer do.Or they no longer exist.

 But the Gospels quite clearly say that the Jews strict Pharisees accused Jesus of being possesed by a demon.

I argued using Job as an example, but that was when he told me that Job is considered poetry, which I checked and later found was correct, I never knew that before then(3 years ago), but since have read many books which talk about it being considered poetry which is different than the parts that deal with real persons who lived such as Moses. Job was made up much as Jesus made up parables of people who did not really exist, but were used as ways to teach principles .

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 04:19:57 AM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.

How did you discern that it was a demon and not a ghost or hallucination?

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

I thought saints were the only ones allowed to appear in this world.
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 04:43:25 AM »

^^Wow talk about being deluded and lost, the Jews of today are so far off the train tracks. If you don't believe Satan and his minions are real, you may be in for a reality check in the life to come. I once had a demon manifest when I was walking in the woods, I was paralyzed for about ten minutes and couldn’t even do anything it was so horrifying. It was the most ghastly thing I have ever seen, it towered over the tree line in size. I always wondered why this happened and have no explanation as it seems like the weirdest random thing that could happen to somebody.

 If God is going to give some a view into the supernatural, why couldn’t it be like an army of angels? I’m still kind of bitter about it after all these years because I honestly don’t understand why it happened and the image of it still gets to me when I think about it. I do have a strong gift of discernment, I can sense evil when it presents itself, but besides that one time I have not actually seen anything else manifest in the many years after that one event. I wonder if this is what the saints and monastic’s can see at times; what they think or how they approach such manifestations would be interesting.
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 04:46:33 AM »

I remember awaking from sleep when I was 7 or 8 years old and seeing five or so humanoid figures in my bedroom, each one purely black and shadowy, with red eyes though and no pupils. One of them was staring right at me and kept coming closer. Then all of a sudden everything disappeared. Still don't know if it was real, a dream, or some odd, half-asleep hallucination sleep paralysis thing. Strangely enough, my mom had a similar experience in that house once, involving a black, shadowy entity looking over her. My grandmother prior to becoming a Roman Catholic practiced with craft and other odd Mexico occultic stuff in that house.

In another instance, and more recently, I remember having two nightmares where the Devil appeared to me. He just looked like a tall White guy in a nice suit with a wrinkly face. In the first dream he told me he'd kill me if I converted to Orthodoxy, I remember just running away and never stopping. Second one was identical, except he said he'd kill my family (which, shameful as it is, I didn't feel as disturbed by this one, since I'm not too close to my family).

On a more positive note, I also once dreamt that my patron St. Augustine appeared to me and we were just sitting on a bench and I was crying while he was wiping my tears and patting me on the back. This was after one of my father's relapses.
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 08:46:57 AM »

I remember awaking from sleep when I was 7 or 8 years old and seeing five or so humanoid figures in my bedroom, each one purely black and shadowy, with red eyes though and no pupils. One of them was staring right at me and kept coming closer. Then all of a sudden everything disappeared. Still don't know if it was real, a dream, or some odd, half-asleep hallucination sleep paralysis thing.

I had a similar experience when I was young.  Not sure what it was, but it scared the crap out of me.  The only time in my life I was so scared I couldn't scream.
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2013, 08:48:35 AM »

^^Wow talk about being deluded and lost, the Jews of today are so far off the train tracks. If you don't believe Satan and his minions are real, you may be in for a reality check in the life to come.

My wife says she believes in angels but not demons.  I asked her why and she said it was too scary.   laugh
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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 11:41:10 AM »

In the spring of 2012, a demon appeared at the foot of my bed. The mattress was on the floor. I had not yet fallen asleep. I opened my eyes and saw this demon at the foot of my bed on his knees. He was facing me, but his head was down and his eyes were closed. He was wearing a hood, like a Roman Catholic monk. His face had a deathly grey pallor. He looked like he was resting (from tormenting me) or suffering something horrible. He slowly faded after about five seconds. I felt little or no fear. I am an Orthodox layman, but planning to become a monk.

How did you discern that it was a demon and not a ghost or hallucination?

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

I thought saints were the only ones allowed to appear in this world.

No, when I was in the OCA, my priest told me about a Russian Orthodox Priest in pre-Soviet Russia who was defrocked by his bishop for his alcoholism. That very night, all these souls appeared to the Bishop pleading that he restore the priest to the parish. His Grace did not get any sleep that night! Early that morning, the bishop called the defrocked priest to the chancery office. He asked the man to describe his daily activities. The defrocked priest said that he would daily walk among the tombs in the parish graveyard prayerfully remembering all those who had fallen asleep in Christ. The Bishop realized that these souls needed the prayers of this alcoholic priest and restored him to the priesthood.
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 12:08:57 PM »

Years ago I visited a long abandoned church reputed to be haunted and a place that the local police dogs refused even to pass the lychgate, at Clophill in Bedfordshire.

I took my then police trained German Shepherd dog. First thing he did was to pause passing through the lychgate and pee up it. Then we entered the graveyard, where enormous grave capstones appeared to have been thrown around like playing cards. Still nothing but curiosity and lots of sniffing on the part of my companion and I had no discernible reactions to my surroundings. The roofless church had been daubed with runic signs in red paint. Other than that nothing and we prepared to leave.

Then rushing off down the driveway I became aware of a black cat alongside and keeping pace, so I speeded up and so did my uninvited companion, so pressed the pedal and the cat shot ahead and raced across the driveway in front of our vehicle only to disappear. No, not under my wheels!

Rationale explanations I don't have and have met many a cat with a turn of speed but not one that could equal that black moggy. And yes, the church does appear on some list or other of haunted places.
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 03:07:52 AM »

Maria, there was no doubt in my mind that the creature I saw was a demon, or a person who had become demonic. His face was grey and horrible. I suppose it could have been someone desiring prayer, but I don't know who it was. He had a hood kind of like a Roman Catholic monk. I don't have a history of hallucinations. And I wasn't looking for or expecting this manifestation at all.
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 03:09:55 AM »

Kerdy, does your wife claim to be Christian? She is not a Christian if she does not believe in demons, because Christ our God taught about their existence. To call into question anything he taught us, is to deny his deity.
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 04:37:18 AM »

I recently read Malachi Martins book about exorcisms from the 1970s, Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans, there were a broad spectrum of cases thoroughly examined within the Catholic church , and while there was one priest afflicted , the rest were regular people.

Great book! I certainly don't recommend it as an Orthodox text on the subject, but I think the overall Christian philosophy of the book is very powerful. It is fascinating reading.

Quote
I also read somewhere that there are many priests and monks who want to be possesed , that they might gain insight into the spirit world, and also test themselves, Although it is highly dangerous and can have lasting effects.

The movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose comes to mind here, which was supposedly based on a true story. But in this case the victim of possession did not actively seek it out. She was innocently possessed, and then the Virgin Mary appeared to her and gave her the choice of ending her suffering and taking her to heaven or continuing her suffering so that others would know that the spiritual realm is real. She chose to remain on earth and be possessed in order to be an instrument of God. Now, I am in no way saying that this is a valid or Orthodox idea. And I agree with others here that actively seeking possession as some sort of spiritual test is hardly an Orthodox practice in the strict sense of the term.

My own view (and this is merely my opinion), is that we make too drastic of a distinction between demonic activity and individual sin. I think every act of evil in the world is the product of demonic influence and individual choice. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, we tend to err either on the side of saying, "the devil made me do it" or on the side of saying that the devil does not exist.


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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 08:08:01 AM »

The movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose comes to mind here, which was supposedly based on a true story. But in this case the victim of possession did not actively seek it out. She was innocently possessed...

Speaking of movies, I watched The Conjuring last night. Scared the absolute crap out of me. It, too, is supposedly based on true events and deals with the possession of an innocent who was not seeking out anything paranormal. Anyway, interestingly, when we left the theater and were discussing the movie, my atheist friend said that movies like that made her reconsider the possibility of the existence of God. I think I remember somewhere that Fr. Seraphim Rose (early in his life) first concluded that Christ was real when he came to know that Antichrist was real.

Perhaps demons tend to remain incognito to those whose faith is weak (so as not to give them any reasons to believe), while for people like Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain (whose biography I am currently reading), who already have established unshakable faith, the demons need not tip-toe around in the shadows and so come right out into the open to attack and tempt? Anyway, just speculating.


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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2013, 11:31:33 AM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2013, 12:06:54 PM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.

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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 12:25:17 PM »

stavros,

"Elder" Paisios, the one who the new calendarists venerate? His bones are black. This is obviously a sign of his apostasy from the true faith and Church. You will not reach your full spirit potential if you follow people like him.

And when have you seen his bones? As far as I know, they lie in his grave.
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 02:22:45 PM »

And when have you seen his bones? As far as I know, they lie in his grave.

Thank you, Ansgar, I was JUST about to type the same thing. 
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 02:23:47 PM »

Maria, there was no doubt in my mind that the creature I saw was a demon, or a person who had become demonic.

No human being becomes demonic anymore than they become angelic.  They are and will remain human. 
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 07:37:46 PM »

stavros, actually I do know what I say. That Paisios' bones are black, was reported to an associate of mine from his spiritual father on Mount Athos. They will probably lie and conceal this truth from you here in America, where all they care about is accommodating heresy and heretics.
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« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 07:39:49 PM »

No human being becomes demonic anymore than they become angelic.  They are and will remain human. 

That's not true. Orthodoxy teaches that human beings in Hell will become more and more demonic throughout eternity. And it teaches that our likeness to the angels and demons begins in this life.
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« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 07:45:13 PM »

Are you talking about "becoming demonic/angelic" in terms of similarity or nature?  IOW, is it a matter of "who they are" or "how they act"?       
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« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 07:46:05 PM »

I have known several priests who were visited regularly by different souls asking for prayers. These souls first appeared like a normal person, but then appeared ghost-like as the priests could see right through them, and then they would fade within a few seconds. These were not menacing demons. All they wanted were prayers.

The creature In saw was absolutely demonic. And I seriously doubt that souls can just randomly appear on earth seeking prayer. What, do they receive an out of Hell pass or something? There are billions of souls in Hell. Why would God grant just one soul to appear to someone for prayer, but never make it known who the soul is? This is ridiculous. And it sounds superstitious. If souls could appear at will to people on earth, than the earth would literally be filled by billions of souls constantly appearing asking people for prayer. Why just allow one soul out of the billions, and the soul never identify who he is? He never gives his name or explains what he needs? Nonsense.
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« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2013, 07:47:59 PM »

stavros, actually I do know what I say. That Paisios' bones are black, was reported to an associate of mine from his spiritual father on Mount Athos. They will probably lie and conceal this truth from you here in America, where all they care about is accommodating heresy and heretics.

LOL.  Obviously, you are also "here" in America, but managed to hear the truth, so it can't be so hard to verify, right?  

When were his relics exhumed?  
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« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 07:48:37 PM »

Are you talking about "becoming demonic/angelic" in terms of similarity or nature?  IOW, is it a matter of "who they are" or "how they act"?       

We become angelic or demonic in terms of characteristics.That's all I know. I'm not a theologian.
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« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2013, 07:50:18 PM »

We become angelic or demonic in terms of characteristics.That's all I know. I'm not a theologian.

Well, if you mean behaviour or some such thing, then that's acceptable I suppose. 
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« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 07:51:29 PM »

Judaism today discredits any references to demonic possessions as Christian concepts, I have in the past debated this with a man who is well versed in Judaism, and he was adamant that they only see the references such as Job or Genesis as metaphorical . And he was taught that they never believed in a real Devil or demons.

I have discussed the issue here and we came to the conclusion that they deny the truth because of Christianities frequent use of it, and the derogatory use that said they were accusing Jesus of being possessed by a demon in the Gospels.

In modern times there are similar parallels such as in Germany after the nazis, schools ignored the subject altogether.



Really?  The Jews do not believe in the Devil or demons?  Really? 



Yes, I was told this by a very knowledgeable site administrator(Jewish) at another religious site. He has studied Judaism all his life and while he said he was not practicing at the time he was brought up by the strict Hasidic Jews.

He was telling someone else in a thread that it was Christians who invented demons who are real, as well as a literal devil.
He said that the Jews only see them as metaphorical characters, who represent sin and lawbreakers, or something to that effect. But he was adamant that Jews do not now believe in demons as real. Course he said they never did, but alluded to some sects of Judaism that might have at one time, but no longer do.Or they no longer exist.

 But the Gospels quite clearly say that the Jews strict Pharisees accused Jesus of being possesed by a demon.

I argued using Job as an example, but that was when he told me that Job is considered poetry, which I checked and later found was correct, I never knew that before then(3 years ago), but since have read many books which talk about it being considered poetry which is different than the parts that deal with real persons who lived such as Moses. Job was made up much as Jesus made up parables of people who did not really exist, but were used as ways to teach principles .

I believe that they have altered what their beliefs are concerning demons and teach now that it was always that way except for some radicals. It seems to me hard for them, However, to accuse Christians of inventing these things when they are written about in their books before Christ.

So, what do they say about the snake in the Garden, who tempted Eve?



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« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 07:53:15 PM »

I don't know when his bones were exhumed. And I'm just going by what I was told. Since there are so many liars in the world today, I don't guarantee that the information I gave about Paisios is true.
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