OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 08:10:22 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Catholic (Universal) vs. Orthodox (Authentic)  (Read 3074 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2013, 06:15:09 PM »

Shouldn't the main question you ask yourself instead be "which of the two paths will lead me to salvation...?"

In response to the OP, this post is really the only one worth paying attention to. ^

IMO that's way too vague principle. That could mean just about anything.

True, its vague. However, its a lot more important than most of the discussion, which is only taking the form of an ecclesiastical pissing contest. 
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2013, 06:30:09 PM »

Let me clarify.

I think its unhealthy to attempt to find religious truth on the internet; especially on forums and blogs. Perhaps the shortest and most vague answer is necessary. Our whole purpose in life is to achieve holiness and communion with God. It requires prayer, not reading internet arguments.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,519


« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2013, 06:47:07 PM »

I think the "salvation" answer is the best. To begin with. But stopping there makes the answer meaningless. Ok, so let's say you stop there. And someone decides that they are going to avoid internet arguments and such. They then decide to become Zoroastrian*. Because, hey, that just seems right. Who are you to argue with them, on the internet no less?

How'd that work out?

I tried to avoid the pssing contest in my earlier post, but in the end some comparisons, judgments, discernment, splitting hairs, arguments, and bullsh*t detection is going to be necessary.


*EDIT--Or put any group you like in here. Mormon. Charismatic Baptist evangelical. Bible Believin snake handlin Presbyterian.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 06:50:53 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Putnik Namernik
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 482



« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2013, 09:25:27 PM »

I shall elaborate...The first question that Michael should ask himself is what he wants to get out of this? Does prefer the social gatherings, the "faith" of majority, membership in group of likeminded people...or does he want to treat these other things as secondary to only one thing which is salvation. If salvation is the main reason behind this soul searching then he should prepare himself for challenges...Before I go on, I should clarify that by salvation I mean personal intention of reforming oneself improving...it is one thing to theoretically be a Christian or a follower of any denomination but a completely different thing to live it. Orthodoxy is a way of life which many do not follow but yet call themselves Orthodox. A person should not join any "faith" for the wrong reason because it does not make any difference. That person is the same person he was before with a minor addition of presenting himself differently as Orthodox or something else perhaps...and actually it is irrelevant how one calls himself because he remains the same person. However if a person has a spiritual thirst then he should go where the water is clearest and purest. I offcourse sibjectively would say that to be Orthodoxy without intending to offend anyone nor to enforce my beliefs. That is why instead of writing all of this I asked Michael whether he should maybe ask himself which of the two ways which he expressed he feels will lead him to salvation...and in thinking about it he should for a moment set aside the secondary things as the structural organization of that church, whether he likes or dislike the local priest, parishioners, the customs...Only once he answers the first question all other questions will be much easier...and things will be put in a better persoective...Digging around without asking the main question is like trying to build a house while leaving the foundation to be built last.  In any case I pray to God that things work out and that your finds that which it needs.
Logged
Maximum Bob
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,828


Personal Text? We can have personal text?


« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2013, 11:24:38 PM »

1st welcome to the forum.

Shouldn't the main question you ask yourself instead be "which of the two paths will lead me to salvation...?"
I would think.

I am still somewhat on the border between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, ... I like the Catholic Church...However, I disagree with them on several points of theology, i.e. Immaculate Conception, purgatory, papal infallibility.

The Orthodox Church does not have these theological problems, and they have stayed more authentic by said pure theology (hence Orthodox)...

My main dilemma comes down to whether I want a church that is more influential, universal, and organized or more pure, true, and limited. Any thoughts?
So let me modify an illustration I heard in a sermon somewhere once. There's two batches of cookies. One is a little over done crumbly doesn't look the best. The other looks great, smells wonderful, made from all the best ingredients except one of the eggs had a little salmonella in it. Which ones are you going to eat?

Sigh, since so much water has gone under the bridge, I should probably explain this for the sake of simplicity too.

Michael, the idea here based on your own statements you are saying you have theological problems with the Roman church. You also listed what you considered to be some of the disadvantages of the Orthodox church. I will let others discuss, which they already have, rather those perceived disadvantages actually are what you perceive them to be. My point was to illustrate the idea that what you liked about the Roman church was all about appearance compared to the serious flaws (theological differences) represented by the salmonella.  At the same time also pointing out that your problems with Orthodoxy seem to be about appearance while your okay with the theology. So do you prefer to eat the cookies that look good but will make you sick or the cookies that look rougher, to you but taste good and won't make you sick.

Also in keeping with the issue of salvation whats more likely to impede your journey to God compromising on appearance or compromising on doctrine?
Logged

Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.
converted viking
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: EOC
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 206



« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2013, 08:35:26 AM »

If Catholicism and Orthodoxy are two types of cookie, what religion is the burger?   Shocked

Hindu if it is a veggie burger. Cheesy

Viking
Logged
Fabio Leite
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 3,511


Future belongs to God only.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2013, 10:22:27 AM »

Christian religions simply do not mean the same thing by the word "salvation".

Theosis - which is the fruit of salvation in its fulness - implies all the other preliminary steps. Other Christian religions simply fall short of seeing that there is something more in terms of union with God.

So, the question is not "which one delivers salvation" but "what do you mean by this salvation thing you want to put me through?"

Some think they are just going to be treated as if they were holy, despite their depraved nature.

Some think they will be healed and this will lead to an ecstatic joy caused by literally seeing the essence of God.

We believe we will be healed from our broken nature and that we will be infused in the energies of God, to the point that our energies will follow His in perfect sinergy.

I believe that those views - which are just reference points in a much subtler range of theological shades - also show how the Orthodox Catholic Church has the fulness of faith. Obviously before theosis, God treats you as if you were innocent. That's the mercy of Grace that moves you to repenting. Also, you do contemplate God -although His energies, not His essence, but that's an understandable mistake. But there's more to salvation, according to the Church.

Shouldn't the main question you ask yourself instead be "which of the two paths will lead me to salvation...?"

In response to the OP, this post is really the only one worth paying attention to. ^

IMO that's way too vague principle. That could mean just about anything.

True, its vague. However, its a lot more important than most of the discussion, which is only taking the form of an ecclesiastical pissing contest. 
Logged

Multiple Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,814


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2013, 10:36:33 AM »

Christian religions simply do not mean the same thing by the word "salvation".

Theosis - which is the fruit of salvation in its fulness - implies all the other preliminary steps. Other Christian religions simply fall short of seeing that there is something more in terms of union with God.

So, the question is not "which one delivers salvation" but "what do you mean by this salvation thing you want to put me through?"

Some think they are just going to be treated as if they were holy, despite their depraved nature.

Some think they will be healed and this will lead to an ecstatic joy caused by literally seeing the essence of God.

We believe we will be healed from our broken nature and that we will be infused in the energies of God, to the point that our energies will follow His in perfect sinergy.

I believe that those views - which are just reference points in a much subtler range of theological shades - also show how the Orthodox Catholic Church has the fulness of faith. Obviously before theosis, God treats you as if you were innocent. That's the mercy of Grace that moves you to repenting. Also, you do contemplate God -although His energies, not His essence, but that's an understandable mistake. But there's more to salvation, according to the Church.

Shouldn't the main question you ask yourself instead be "which of the two paths will lead me to salvation...?"

In response to the OP, this post is really the only one worth paying attention to. ^

IMO that's way too vague principle. That could mean just about anything.

True, its vague. However, its a lot more important than most of the discussion, which is only taking the form of an ecclesiastical pissing contest. 

Looks Catholic to me.
Logged

"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog
Fabio Leite
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 3,511


Future belongs to God only.


WWW
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2013, 01:05:48 PM »

Indeed it is. What it is not is Roman.  Wink

Christian religions simply do not mean the same thing by the word "salvation".

Theosis - which is the fruit of salvation in its fulness - implies all the other preliminary steps. Other Christian religions simply fall short of seeing that there is something more in terms of union with God.

So, the question is not "which one delivers salvation" but "what do you mean by this salvation thing you want to put me through?"

Some think they are just going to be treated as if they were holy, despite their depraved nature.

Some think they will be healed and this will lead to an ecstatic joy caused by literally seeing the essence of God.

We believe we will be healed from our broken nature and that we will be infused in the energies of God, to the point that our energies will follow His in perfect sinergy.

I believe that those views - which are just reference points in a much subtler range of theological shades - also show how the Orthodox Catholic Church has the fulness of faith. Obviously before theosis, God treats you as if you were innocent. That's the mercy of Grace that moves you to repenting. Also, you do contemplate God -although His energies, not His essence, but that's an understandable mistake. But there's more to salvation, according to the Church.

Shouldn't the main question you ask yourself instead be "which of the two paths will lead me to salvation...?"

In response to the OP, this post is really the only one worth paying attention to. ^

IMO that's way too vague principle. That could mean just about anything.

True, its vague. However, its a lot more important than most of the discussion, which is only taking the form of an ecclesiastical pissing contest. 

Looks Catholic to me.
Logged

Multiple Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,156


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2013, 01:37:27 PM »

Christian religions simply do not mean the same thing by the word "salvation".

Theosis - which is the fruit of salvation in its fulness - implies all the other preliminary steps. Other Christian religions simply fall short of seeing that there is something more in terms of union with God.

So, the question is not "which one delivers salvation" but "what do you mean by this salvation thing you want to put me through?"

Some think they are just going to be treated as if they were holy, despite their depraved nature.

Some think they will be healed and this will lead to an ecstatic joy caused by literally seeing the essence of God.

We believe we will be healed from our broken nature and that we will be infused in the energies of God, to the point that our energies will follow His in perfect sinergy.

I believe that those views - which are just reference points in a much subtler range of theological shades - also show how the Orthodox Catholic Church has the fulness of faith. Obviously before theosis, God treats you as if you were innocent. That's the mercy of Grace that moves you to repenting. Also, you do contemplate God -although His energies, not His essence, but that's an understandable mistake. But there's more to salvation, according to the Church.

Shouldn't the main question you ask yourself instead be "which of the two paths will lead me to salvation...?"

In response to the OP, this post is really the only one worth paying attention to. ^

IMO that's way too vague principle. That could mean just about anything.

True, its vague. However, its a lot more important than most of the discussion, which is only taking the form of an ecclesiastical pissing contest. 

Looks Catholic to me.
Young Fogey, please stop preaching your Catholicism on this thread. This is the Convert Issues board, where such attempts to draw proselytes into non-Orthodox faiths is forbidden.

From General Guidelines for the Various Boards

Quote
Convert Issues: Discussion, no polemics or debate.  Only questions about our faith and relevant answers, and only from the Orthodox POV.  Other faiths can clarify misconceptions about their group, but no defense permitted, and no anti-Orthodox polemic.  Inappropriate material to be delegated appropriately (Faith, Liturgy, FFA:RT, etc.).
(emphasis mine)
Logged
Martyr Eugenia
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2013, 11:33:36 AM »

...by salvation I mean personal intention of reforming oneself improving...Orthodoxy is a way of life which many do not follow but yet call themselves Orthodox.

...if a person has a spiritual thirst then he should go where the water is clearest and purest.

Alas, sometimes the water appears to be clear and pure, by Putnik Namernik's definition in red it has been troubling wading into Orthodoxy amidst those who call themselves Orthodox. Making it difficult and nearly impossible for an inquirer to survive.

and can someone define who/what this really is? Do they really exist? or is it some kind of cruel joke amongst the Orthodox? Someone knowledgeable of spiritual things that is WILLING and ABLE and GENEROUS to share with those seeking genuine spiritual guidance?
Solution for all problems Orthodox.   Wink


Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,519


« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2013, 11:57:21 AM »

The number of spiritual fathers alive today can be counted on one hand. Most of them live in the Urals, if you wish to see them.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,485



« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2013, 01:33:34 PM »

...by salvation I mean personal intention of reforming oneself improving...Orthodoxy is a way of life which many do not follow but yet call themselves Orthodox.

...if a person has a spiritual thirst then he should go where the water is clearest and purest.

Alas, sometimes the water appears to be clear and pure, by Putnik Namernik's definition in red it has been troubling wading into Orthodoxy amidst those who call themselves Orthodox. Making it difficult and nearly impossible for an inquirer to survive.

and can someone define who/what this really is? Do they really exist? or is it some kind of cruel joke amongst the Orthodox? Someone knowledgeable of spiritual things that is WILLING and ABLE and GENEROUS to share with those seeking genuine spiritual guidance?
Solution for all problems Orthodox.   Wink



Personally I find it much easier to just assume that everyone else is leading a much "better" Orthodox life than I do. It simplifies things immensely, and keeps me in a proper spirit. If I notice that someone is not leading a particularly Orthodox life, (whatever that may be), I remind myself that I am probably wrong about them or that they are having an especially difficult time right now.
I do this because I struggle with being harsh, overly critical and judgmental. I have a strong tendency to criticize others for not "following the rules" while rationalizing my own failures.

As far as spiritual fathers, there are indeed wise, kind and spiritual individuals who will take the time to talk with you and advise you. They just may not look like the photo or live on Mt. Athos.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Incognito777
Muted
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: N/A
Posts: 322


« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »

A person should convert to something that is true, not because it is large. Converting to something large is psychological, not spiritual.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.083 seconds with 40 queries.